The Black Cauldron (Disney Adaptation) feat. C.M. Caplan

Your hosts are joined by C.M. Caplan to discuss The Black Cauldron, Disney’s 1985 animated adaptation of Lloyd Alexander’s The Chronicles of Prydain series. They compare it to Tolkien, are extra hard on adaptations of works they love, and discuss the merits of big titty goth GFs.

Find more from Connor:

https://www.cmcaplan.net/ 

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah, and today we will be joined by Connor Kaplan to talk about or complain about "The Black Cauldron," the movie based on the first two novels of "The Chronicles of Prydain" series by Lloyd Alexander.

Connor 0:24

I'm so excited. I've got so many thoughts

Sara 0:27

You and me both

Connor 0:30

I I feel like you're gonna have a lot more, like, angry thoughts about it, whereas I'm feeling not great, not good thoughts, but very just sort of, "Hmm, I don't know about this."

Lilly 0:40

Yeah, I'm flabbergasted, don't get me wrong, but I'm not upset.

Connor 0:45

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one

Sara 0:47

I have all of the anger that eight-year-old Sarah felt when watching this movie for the first time after having read the books.

Connor 0:55

This movie was a trauma response for you is

Sara 0:57

Yes. Yes.

Lilly 0:59

Well, first, shall we have our quick intro questions? What's something great that happened recently?

Sara 1:05

So Dumpling, who is my trauma pug she's the traumatized pug that I adopted last year. She slept in my arms last night, and she doesn't do that very often, so it was very sweet.

Lilly 1:17

Aw, snuggles.

Connor 1:19

her

Lilly 1:20

That's wonderful

Connor 1:21

That's adorable. She does sound like Gurgi, I need you to know

Sara 1:26

No, that's Cookie... Well, I- that's both of them playing right now.

Connor 1:31

Yeah.

Sara 1:32

It's mostly Cookie being a pill.

Connor 1:36

They're very Gherki coded

Sara 1:37

Yes

Lilly 1:39

Connor, how about you?

Connor 1:40

I'm cheating with two things. It's I turned 30 last week, so that's, that's a fun little milestone.

Sara 1:45

birthday

Connor 1:47

Yeah. And then to, to celebrate, we just finished like two fucking months of moving house, and it took so long, we're finally at the end of it, and it's like, oh God, finally I can come up for air now, which is why I'm doing this podcast. This is my celebration

Lilly 2:02

That is, that is truly wonderful.

Sara 2:05

Yes

Lilly 2:07

my good thing is that I figured out the purpose of cropped sweatshirts. I got one as Kesha merch a couple of years ago, more than a couple of years ago, whenever the Raising Hell album came out, uh, and was like, "What am I supposed to do with this?" It's supposed to keep me warm, but it stops at my ribcage. Turns out breastfeeding. Might not be what Kesha intended when she designed her sweatshirt, but very useful.

Connor 2:33

That'll do it.

Lilly 2:34

Yeah.

Sara 2:35

That does sound like a good use for it

Connor 2:37

Yeah

Lilly 2:37

My, like, silly impulsive purchase from my mid-20s is paying off and it's kinda great.

Connor 2:43

At long last. Yeah, no, I've only been, kira gives me all of her crop sweatshirts and the only time I ever wear them is if I'm like, "Well, I kinda wanna be warm, but I'm not super dedicated to it."

Lilly 2:55

Right? It's like, what-- It's so counterintuitive.

Connor 2:58

I know

Lilly 2:59

Mm-hmm. What is everyone drinking today? I have coffee because it's bright and early in the morning for me

Sara 3:07

I have tea for the same reason

Connor 3:09

I have coffee even though it is 1:20 PM. Just 'cause I felt like the Focalin didn't do enough, you know?

Lilly 3:17

And has anyone read anything good lately?

Sara 3:20

I read the first two novels of The Chronicles of Prydain

Lilly 3:24

Well, we're about to talk about that, so technically doesn't count.

Sara 3:28

I also read "Warrior of the Altaii" by Robert Jordan, which I'm not sure I would qualify as good per se. It was his first novel, published posthumously. I- it's a barbarian fantasy that has a lot of aspects that he later developed in "The Wheel of Time," and so very interesting from that perspective. But the plot is, Not expansive. And it shows even more of his kinks than "The Wheel of Time" does.

Connor 4:04

my God, I didn't think that was possible

Sara 4:06

Neither did I

Connor 4:08

I remember reading that he used to, before he wrote "Wheel of Time" novels, he would like be hired to write like Conan the Barbarian kind of novels and everything like that.

Sara 4:15

I mean, he, he wrote seven Conan the Barbarian novels, like official Conan b- Conan novels. This is not one of them. Yeah, this is, this is a novel that he wrote. It sold twice but for whatever reason never got published. And then it was published couple of years ago

Connor 4:32

Oh, yeah, yeah. I think I

Sara 4:33

Ja

Lilly 4:35

I don't know if it's fair to hold that against somebody. Can you imagine being like a, a well-regarded author and then someone digging through your stuff and finding the garbage you wrote when you were 18, and then everyone gets to read it and judge you for it?

Sara 4:48

I mean, to be fair, to be fair, this book did sell previously

Lilly 4:53

you're right. So not exactly that situation, but I feel that way every time new Tolkien stuff comes out. I'm like, "Ooh, I don't know if he wanted us to read that."

Connor 5:02

One of his grandkids is like, "Oh my God, at long last, that pile of money I ordered. That drum tote full of money right here on this PC."

Sara 5:11

for Tolkien it was Christopher Tolkien who was publishing all of that, and Christopher Tolkien was, like, the preeminent Tolkien scholar. For Robert Jordan, it's his wife Harriet, who was also his editor. So I feel like she probably does have a good handle on, like, whether or not he would be okay with publishing it. It's definitely a debut

Connor 5:30

why all of his kinks are in the book

Lilly 5:32

Yeah.

Sara 5:34

They-- I don't think they were married when he wrote this book initially, though.

Connor 5:39

That's what-- that's how he wooed her

Sara 5:41

Yes. I mean, she was his editor first and then his wife.

Connor 5:46

Oh, that's fun. I like that, honestly. Mad respect for that. That's a, that's a great strategy. I love that actually. The more I think about that, I'm I'm more and more on board with this the more I think about it. That's phenomenal

Sara 5:58

Anyway, that's what I read

Connor 6:00

I have not read a ton 'cause again, I've been moving for the last two months, so the only thing I managed to knock out was, I've been pronouncing it Prydain, like almost like Britain, like, like, but slightly altered with like maybe an accent mark or something.

Sara 6:12

I don't know if my pronunciation is correct

Connor 6:15

Hmm. I do like, I do like yours though. It, it does sound fancier.

Sara 6:20

How I-- how eight-year-old or seven-year-old, however old I was when I first read the books earlier than eight pronounced it, so

Connor 6:28

That is fun. So I knocked those out for the first time ever. Never read them before. And then I managed to read two out of three of the "Duncan Aig" novels 'cause I hadn't read them since I was I don't know, 18 or 19. And

Sara 6:40

George R.R. Martin

Connor 6:41

yeah, yeah. They recently did the TV adaptation of the first one. And I, I liked it less than I did when I was younger, but it's also-- it's still pretty solid, like 3.5 out of 10, four out of 10 maybe. Or not 10, out of five. I was gonna say that's not pretty solid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Like 3.5 or four out of five is what I would say as like j- which for me is generally, yeah, that's pretty good, pretty good I f- but like, liked the second one more than the first, which surprised me. I remember really liking the first one and feeling kinda eh about the second. But yeah, yeah, the, it feels like the story is way too big for a novella. It feels like it should've been stretched out to maybe like a 50,000, like a short novel kind of a length. But the, the second, the second novella is w- right exactly where it needs to be, and it flows really, really well

Sara 7:31

Interesting

Lilly 7:32

Nice. I started "Women and Other Creatures" by Dani Finn. It's a collection of novellas and short stories. I really just barely started it but I'm, I'm pretty excited to dive in. It's a lot of kind of sapphic monster romances, so I'm excited. It's gonna be a good time.

Sara 7:54

Sounds like your kind of book

Lilly 7:56

Mm-hmm. But we're here to talk about "The Chronicles of Prydain" or Prydain or, you know, Prydain something. There's some number of syllables in that word

Sara 8:09

However you wanna... Yes, however you wanna pronounce it.

Connor 8:13

it.

Sara 8:14

So we watched the movie. Well, I watched the movie and then complained to Connor about it, and Connor suggested that we talk about it

Connor 8:24

I said, "Should we turn it into content?"

Sara 8:26

But the movie combines the first two novels in the series. It's a, it's a five book series a young adult series that came out in the, like, mid-'60s by Lloyd Alexander, who was a, an American author. I always thought he was British until, like, two weeks ago

Connor 8:46

from Pennsylvania. That was crazy. You know, the Britain of New England, really

Sara 8:51

But "The Chronicles of Prydain" are very, like, Welsh inspired. There's, there's a lot of Welsh mythology in there, so I think that's kind of why I had those British vibes.

Connor 9:01

there's a, a disclaimer thrown the, the version I read where he's like, "It draws a lot from Welsh mythology, but if you know a lot about Welsh mythology, do not, do not come at me. It's not a one-to-one. calm down."

Sara 9:15

And this is a series that I read as a child, and it was very instrumental for me. Like, it was, it was one of my foundational series. But neither of you had that experience, and so I was wondering, how did the movie compare if the books weren't formative? Like, Connor, I know you read the books and then re-watched the movie, and Lily, you watched the movie and then started the first book?

Lilly 9:40

Yes.

Connor 9:41

Yeah. I re- I remember watching the movie, I think exactly one time when I was a child. Like, it was like the last thing we watched before Blockbuster Video went out of business or something like that. Like, I was really-- That was that little. I can't remember if it was me or my brother being absolutely terrified of the Horned King in the animated version and everything. I fucking love that dude now. Everything about-- That's the, my favorite part of the movie is this fucking, this freaky motherfucker. I love him so much. and that's the only thing I remembered about the movie whatsoever. the books were the kind of thing I always meant to get to since I was, like, 17. I didn't read a ton when I was a kid, and then in high school I really, really got into it, and then I was like, "Eh, this is, that's on the list of all the sort of classic stuff. I should probably read it eventually." I just never got around to it, and I was like, "Oh, thank God. Now, now, now Sarah's asking me to do it. Now, Now I finally have a chance to get around to this thing that I should've gotten around to when I was a teenager." and it was, yeah, it It, it reminded me almost like a... It's like if Ursula K. Le Guin tried to write "The Hobbit" a little bit. It's very, very '60s. It's the epitome of '60s fantasy. Very episodic, very just sort of, meandering, almost cozy. Like, I at no point felt like these characters were in any mortal peril, even though they're all constantly in danger. It felt v- But not in a way that was like... It's very hard to pull that off, where it's like I don't feel like any of them are ever gonna, are gonna get hurt or die. But at the same time, it's this, this very sort of, it still makes for an engaging read in a way that is very, very difficult to pull off. And I liked it for that. I liked it for the... It had this sort of unconventional, very sort of, again, episodic pace that I really, really liked of just going from the next thing to the next thing. Each chapter was a sort of its own sort of self-contained part of an an arc in a way that is very reminiscent of '60s fantasy. So I, I, I liked it a lot more than I expected to, but it also was not at all what I was expecting when I started reading it.

Sara 11:32

What were you expecting when you started reading it?

Connor 11:35

I thought it was gonna be a lot more like uh, Tolkien. I or l- I guess it, it is like Tolkien in the sense that it's it takes its time getting to, to places while also sort of going by quickly with, like "The Hobbit," it has that sort of tone, that sort of, the sort of coziness that also is like adventuring and everything. But I thought it was gonna be more, I thought there were gonna be more sort of grand armies and, I thought it was gonna be more epic, I guess. I thought it was gonna be more epic fantasy instead of more of a, a sort of low fae- low... Not, not low fantasy, but like, I thought it was gonna be "Two Towers," "Return of the King." It felt more like the first half of "Fellowship," if that makes sense.

Sara 12:09

Yes. Yes, I think that does make sense. And I can, I can see that comparison. Again, since I read this way before I, I read any Tolkien always viewed it kind of as its own thing

Connor 12:21

I always seen it juxtaposed against Tolkien or like any, any sort of pieces of classic fantasy. So I thought it was gonna be more, more reminiscent of a sweeping scope. So I think what surprised me is it stayed so tight on Tarin and everything. That was, that was what it really stuck with his perspective. And I really liked that. I liked that about it. I think I would've had a, a more disappointing time if it sort of broadened out a lot more. But I liked how sort of, it felt very, very intimate in a way that a lot, a lot of 60s high fantasy type stuff so doesn't always feel, if that makes sense.

Sara 12:53

Yeah, that, that makes sense.

Connor 12:55

Yeah, yeah.

Lilly 12:56

It's interesting you're comparing it to Tolkien because I felt like there were some huge similarities to "Lord of the Rings," although I think I'm talking more about some of the like archetypes and not the actual like prose and story structure. Like Gurgi, the either wild man or adorable animal companion, depending on which version you're talking about was so similar to Gollum. And w- I watched the movie first, and my husband and I were talking like, "Was this just the, the people who made the movie trying to like capitalize on 'Lord of the Rings?'" No, that's actually how he talks in the book.

Sara 13:34

That is how he talks in the book. That's definitely not visually how he's described, but

Lilly 13:39

But the, but the similarities, like calling Tairn, "Oh, master, generous master," and talking in the third person, like so Gollum. And then are we doing a spoiler section? Should I not talk about the other thing that reminds me of Gollum?

Sara 13:54

I don't think we're doing a spoiler section.

Connor 13:56

came out in the '80s. It's

Lilly 13:57

Okay

Sara 13:58

the movie came out in the '80s. The books came out in the '60s. Yeah, it's fine.

Connor 14:03

Yeah

Lilly 14:03

so Gurgi falling into the cauldron was also very like Gollum falling into Mount Doom. There was so much of that. There's also like the-- In the book, there's that whole like don't glorify violence when Taryn is like, "I wanna be a hero." and I think Cole is saying like it's, it's not, not all it's cracked up to be. That conversation reminded me a lot of Gandalf telling Frodo like, You wish you could pass judgment on Gollum, but no, no you don't actually." and then also, I don't remember anyone's name, but there's the king of kings is descended from who?

Sara 14:41

Gwydion

Lilly 14:42

Gideon is the hero,

Connor 14:44

W

Lilly 14:46

is-- But he's the like the war leader. He's not the king king though, right?

Sara 14:50

Maybe I'm getting it confused with later on in the books

Connor 14:53

There was a guy named Morden or

Lilly 14:55

Cause like the kingdom has like the king and then the hu- war leader. Those are like two different titles. It doesn't matter. The, the family is descended from some family that's like from far away, and I was like, "This is very elves, Gondor, Númenor."

Connor 15:11

I, I-- When Gwydion was introduced, I specifically remember thinking, "This is g- getting, like, Glorfindel kind of vibes of showing up in the middle of the forest being rescued and everything."

Sara 15:20

You are correct. Gwydion is the son of the High King.

Lilly 15:23

I thought so. Okay. Not that I know the books better than you or anything, but

Sara 15:28

You, you have, you have read "The Book of Three" more recently or started it more recently?

Lilly 15:33

when watching the movie, I was like, "Is this just Disney trying to capitalize on 'Lord of the Rings?'" But no, reading the book, it's in the book. And now I don't know if it's... Because, so it did come out after "Lord of the Rings," so it, it could have been inspired by that, or maybe they were both just pulling from the same source material.

Connor 15:48

it was a lot of that

Lilly 15:49

possible.

Sara 15:49

Yeah. I mean, I, I think there's possibly a little bit of both. Definitely pulling from the same source material in, in parts. But I do think that some of the decisions in the movie, like Gurgi being the one to jump into the cauldron, and that framing of he's jumping into the cauldron from up high or falling into it. Like, I, I do think that's probably a deliberate call to or call back to "The Lord of the Rings" because that's not how it happens in, in the books. And I'm sure that they were trying to capitalize a little bit on the popularity of "The Lord of the Rings." So when I watched the movie as a child I absolutely hated it because it was so different from the books. And I was a spiteful little thing who, who hated adaptations that were not exactly correct, and some of that has followed me through to now when I rewatched it. I got very annoyed because it was so different from, from the book, and so I couldn't... I had a hard time separating out the movie as its own thing from, like, the movie as an adaptation. Lily, did you enjoy or did you and Dani enjoy the movie?

Lilly 17:03

The animation was a hot mess, and Dani, having a degree in traditional animation had some opinions about it. So I think that was, like, a strong theme in our watch situation. It also felt very rushed, and I thought that was, again interpreting it as an adaptation without having read the book. I, I assumed that's because they were trying to smash two books together to fit it into one movie. No, the book moves almost just as fast. Like, Henwen running away in the first scene is pretty accurate. Granted, that's about-- I didn't-- I haven't finished the other two books, but-- or the other book and a half. But I think overall it was mostly was dated, I think was the problem I had with the movie. I mean, the book's dated too, but in a very different way. And like we can talk about some of the, some of the villains. I guess, are the witches even villains? Kind of. They're antagonists

Sara 18:03

I-- They're definitely antagonists in the movie. In the series, they show up a couple of times. They're antagonists, I would say, in, in "The Black Cauldron," which is the second book. But I wouldn't call them series antagonists. Like, they, they show up and do non-antagonistic things

Connor 18:22

they defy categorization. I feel like they're like these creatures that are so old, they're sort of beyond morality in a certain sort of way

Lilly 18:29

The way they were handled in the movie was not impressive to me. And Tarin was pretty whiny. It was just like, it was a kids movie from the, what? Early '90s, like

Sara 18:41

late late '80s. so even worse.

Lilly 18:43

It just didn't age well. And that was mostly my opinion of it, I think.

Sara 18:49

I, I think that's very fair

Connor 18:51

Yeah, I w- I wasn't super a- I wasn't angry with it in the same way that you were, but it was not... It was enjoyable in the sense that it was like, all right, cool. It's like, it's like fine. It was like a f- the first third I remember being like, "Okay, I don't see what Sarah's talking about. This seems pretty good. It seems pretty faithful." and I started noticing the differences around the time, was it Princess Eilonwy shows up? And she was my favorite character in the books 'cause she's just the most quippy, sarcastic, just constantly tearing everyone down, roasting everyone. Just she's the spirited girl and everything. She's got so much going on, it's great. And then you put her-- She comes out in the movie, she does like one thing and then turns into like some sort of blushing, giggling schoolgirl who doesn't have anything interesting to say. And it's like, what? Every good line came from this, came from her, and you're gonna cut all of them? What are, what are we doing? What's happening? and then like they're running around the thing with the sword out and everything, and it's just sort of like he's not even supposed to be able to draw it. He's supposed to have all these other things happening or

Sara 19:52

It's Eilanwy who takes the sword. Tairn can't touch it, and that's the point

Connor 19:56

feels thematically just sort of like muddled in the sense that like he's supposed to be realizing that like there's more to life than daring and adventure, and if you're going to be having a big adventure you have a responsibility to conduct yourself in a particular way, and it is reckless, dangerous, and irresponsible to do the exact thing he's doing in the movie. But in the movie, it's being framed as a big hero moment. And then, and that makes it sort of thematically confused when he gets to the end o- of the movie and then he's like, "I've learned my lesson. I don't need the sword and everything." And it's just like, well, but it's not initially framed as him making a mistake. It's not initially framed as him doing a bad thing as he's running around with this sword and being horribly reckless and everything. That's not-- It's framed as him being, "Fuck yeah, heroics." And it makes for a very totally confused sort of thing. So that was what sort of annoyed me. But the actual watch itself was just sort of... If it was its own thing, I think it was easy to compartmentalize 'cause I didn't have the emotional attachment to the book, so I could sort of, think about it from the sort of detached place of how it wasn't lining up. But it didn't really affect just sort of like, oh, it was a decent, decent flick. Kira was having to explain a lot of the animation side of it to me 'cause she has like a degree in like animation history. So I was like, "Why does it look so awful?" And she was like, "I know exactly the way that they rigged this up and why it looks so weird, and there's like preliminary 3D effects that I know about from the history of Walt Disney's animation company." And then she, she starts really getting into the technical details and I was like, "I have no idea what any of this means." And she's like, "Go get me a piece of paper. I will draw you a diagram." And she drew a diagram of exactly how all the animation was done and why it looks just like, like these animated characters are still standing in front of a green screen.

Sara 21:34

Also, apparently apparently the scene at the end where the Horned King's undead army is, like, coming out and, going off to, to conquer places was deemed too scary or something in, test runs, so they cut a bunch of that content, and that's why the scene is so jerky because they didn't, like, redo any of it. So it's just, just has, like, these big gaps

Lilly 22:00

And there's no way to see the original? That's too bad

Sara 22:03

Yeah, there's no way to see the original

Connor 22:05

I remember seeing that as a kid and being horribly, horribly freaked out by all the skeletons and everything, and then watching it as adult though-- as an adult, it was one of my favorite scenes. I was like, "This is so... What the fuck? Wow, it's so convenient that he's in the castle specifically that all the skeletons are in. Was he just hoarding them this whole time?"

Sara 22:27

So many skeletons. That's how you know he's a villain. It's for his, for his evil plot later

Connor 22:32

really evil real estate agent to grab that place

Lilly 22:35

I will say after watching "The Black Cauldron," Disney said, "Don't you wanna watch 'The Sword in the Stone' next?" you know, similar era. So we did, and oh boy, Sarah, I think you got off easy, honestly. Cause that movie's a hot mess.

Sara 22:54

I a- am pretty sure that I have watched The Sword in the Stone, but I do not remember anything about it.

Connor 23:01

I remember finding it mind-numbing as a kid 'cause I remember this, the title promised me swords, and sword did not show up until very end of movie. And I remember being like, "Wha- the fuck? I came here for swords and you did not give me sword? It's just a bunch of hijinks? I didn't sign up for hijinks. I signed u- signed up for King Arthur doing cool shit. What the fuck?"

Lilly 23:24

Yeah.

Connor 23:24

I was so mad.

Lilly 23:26

Yeah. So we don't have to go into that, but that did, I think, make me view "The Black Cauldron" better by comparison.

Connor 23:33

It could have been so much worse

Lilly 23:35

Yeah.

Sara 23:36

Cauldron gained in retrospect.

Lilly 23:38

Mhm.

Connor 23:39

I mean, both movies do have scenes where women sexually harass some man and there's some comedic situation involving someone with very large breasts. There are some parallels in terms of just like what if we take some incredibly complex characters and just boil them down

Lilly 23:59

Squish them between two big titties.

Connor 24:01

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just really what, what we need is the sort of a Walt Disney '80s equivalent of a big titty goth GF, you know?

Lilly 24:09

Yeah.

Sara 24:11

I mean, every movie needs that. Let's

Connor 24:12

Really adds to the flavor of the movie, you know? It wouldn't be the same without it. A very necessary addition

Lilly 24:18

That-- The lingering shots of Fluder, who has been turned into a frog, getting suffocated by the witch's breasts were just

Connor 24:27

really,

Lilly 24:28

someone is having a great day in the animation

Connor 24:31

Y- this man is drawing with one hand, just having the time of his life

Sara 24:37

That scene bothered me so much. I mean, all of the scenes in the movie bothered me so much, but

Connor 24:42

the, there is something i- really gross about... 'Cause in the book they're, like, fascinatingly weird and complex and mystical and almost sort of like these, these... They're so ancient and old that they almost defi- again, they defy categorization and th- their logic is weird and they're sort of like, th- it's like they're speaking in riddles because their brains have sort of been jumbled up by how long they've been alive, that everything's just sort of all jumbled up in their heads. And it's like you can't, you can almost can't make sense of what leaps in logic they're gonna make, and that's really interesting. And then they just flatten them to, like, in this, in, to, to just, "Oh, wow, that one's got big tits and, and really loves an old man who's not, attractive. Isn't that weird? Isn't that quirky?" And it's just like, Jesus, just, that's... You re- th- this movie hates the idea of a complex female character in a way that's really infuriating to me.

Sara 25:33

And I, I think that's my problem with the movie is that it takes everything that's interesting about the books and, and what the, the books are doing and just flattens it and reduces it and makes it a very standard or even substandard, like, fantasy adventure. And that, yeah, that annoys me because the books are doing interesting things with the characters and, like, the character arcs and the archetypes, and that's all just, you know, it, it becomes stereotypes in, in the movie.

Connor 26:09

They took the general framework of the books and decided to make it more of a sort of generic paint-by-numbers fantasy adventure. And it's like, if you wanted it to be a generic paint-by-numbers fantasy adventure, you could've just done that. You could've just changed the names or something. But then you don't have the same sort of brand recognition for all the diehard "Black Cauldron" fans who were alive in the '80s.

Sara 26:33

Or even the night-- I mean, I'm pretty sure that I, 'cause I owned it on VHS, and I'm pretty sure that my parents got it for me immediately when it came out. It was not released on VHS until 1998, even though the movie came out in '85.

Connor 26:47

Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, I guess it-- that makes sense. It, like, bankrupted the movie, almost, like, destroyed the studio from what I

Sara 26:53

it did really terribly, yeah.

Connor 26:54

Yeah. I wonder why

Sara 26:57

the, the Wikipedia page talks a little bit about it. I don't remember the details. But so there were diehard Black Cauldron fans when it came out. I was one of them.

Lilly 27:10

As a slacker who did not manage to read two entire children's novels for this conversation, where does the stor- like,

Connor 27:20

You were busy having a child

Lilly 27:21

at what point, where do the books change over? Like, where's the end of the first book and the beginning of the second book in the story?

Sara 27:27

So the Horned King in the first book is not going for the Black Cauldron at all. And we lose...

Connor 27:35

He's going after Henwin, right? Or

Sara 27:37

Yeah, so, so Hen Wen, yeah, he's, he's still looking for Hen Wen, but there's the, the Black

Lilly 27:41

the Black Cauldron 'cause he has undead guys already

Connor 27:44

Yeah,

Sara 27:44

No.

Connor 27:45

the...

Sara 27:46

Yes. Yeah, see...

Connor 27:47

at the beginning. Yeah,

Sara 27:48

Yeah, the, the Cauldron-born are already there. And then So, Hen Wen runs away and Taryn goes after her and they end up getting captured by Queen Acheron, I think is, is her name who is big mad at the Horned King because he's her ex-boyfriend and he, like, fucked her over and, and took the cauldron from her, et cetera, et cetera. And so she imprisons Gwydion and Taryn, and Eilonwy is, like, her ward or something. And so Eilonwy shows up, rescues Taryn, and Taryn's like, "No, my friend is still here. We've gotta rescue him too." But he doesn't give any specifics, so instead of rescuing Gwydion she accidentally rescues Fflutur Flam, the bard. And then they, they run away and save themselves, et cetera, et cetera. And then book two is the Black Cauldron has

Lilly 28:41

Mm. No, because I got

Connor 28:43

more in-- the, Book of Three, there's d-

Lilly 28:46

the Beorn... Oh yeah, there's a Beorn scene, except it's not Beorn. His name is, like, Medwin or something. And he lives in this valley with a bunch of animals, and everything's wonderful. And that's about halfway through book one

Connor 28:58

Doesn't the Horn King get, like, fucking killed at the end of the first book or something? There's some big bad that gets c- just completely murdered off, off page or something like that at the end of it, I thought. Unless I misunderstood. There's, like, some big battle and then Taran gets knocked out and everything, and then they're like, "Yeah, we fucking, we fucking smoked him," or something

Sara 29:16

Yeah, that's, that is the Horned King.

Connor 29:18

Yeah, yeah. And then there's the, the Anuvan was like the, the overarching sort of villain I think, right?

Sara 29:24

Aronn and his, the the land that he's from is Anovin. Yeah

Connor 29:31

but yeah, there's, there's that as well. V- that was very "Battle of the Five Armies" kind of a thing, just knocking him out and then, "Yeah, oh my God, you just missed it," all the crazy stuff. And then he tries to draw the sword and he doesn't-- he, he can't manage it and everything. There's even that whole section and everything. I see how that, the way that they cut it up would work on paper. I think that w- I-- like, if you were going to adapt these books into a movie in the '80s, that's a, on paper, that's about as decent a job as I think you could do it. I think it would've worked very much a lot better as some sort of animated show or something, like 20-minute increments or something for a few episodes. I think that would've been a much better format, but they didn't have that back then, I assume. So I, I like, I kinda get how they, why they chopped it up that way and tried to streamline things, but it's also just sort of like there's so much you miss. Even, again, not to bring it back to the idea of how much this movie hates the concept of a complex female character, but like Eilonwy is, like the witches in, in the second book, the, the, this sort of, um, fairy logic or fairy sort of like her brain works in this very weird, almost autistic sort of way and everything that is fascinating to me and really interesting with the conclusions she makes and the conclusions Taran makes and everything, and the way that it influences their whole relationship. And like v- she very clearly has a crush on him that she's sublimated and is just like, "Just hold it in, hold it in and just get mad at him, and that that will get you to some sort of success and everything." It's really interesting, and they're just sort of flattening it into just nothing. There's nothing there in the movie, and that's just sort of like, "Goddammit." So like they, they streamlined it so much that they took out all, all the, the things that make it what it is.

Sara 31:12

I mean, they take out all of the nuance, yeah

Lilly 31:15

I do-- I think watching the movie first kind of ruined my interpretation of Elanwe in the book because I kind of held that characterization of her. And in the book, she's right every time,

Sara 31:31

She is right every

Lilly 31:32

it feels like the book is not giving her credit for that. Although maybe it's just Taryn who isn't, and I'm bringing baggage from the movie

Connor 31:41

that's how I read it, of him just being young, stupid, and a boy

Sara 31:48

Yeah.

Connor 31:48

in a lot of ways

Sara 31:49

I do think that the book posits Eilanwy as being correct every time she's correct, which is most of the time. And Tairn just doesn't recognize it because he is young and dumb and initially focused on his own glory and how he can be, like, a hero. And so his journey over the course of both, you know, the first two books, but also the series as a whole, is him recognizing that being a hero is more than wielding a sword and, you know, going rah-rah

Lilly 32:21

Yeah. all of the quotes that I pulled out I realized were dialogue except for one, which was the prose itself that said, "Despite her chattering, Illanwe kept a rapid pace." And her chattering was her saying, "No, you idiot, I was right all along." And that really rubbed me the wrong way.

Connor 32:42

Hmm. Yeah, I could

Lilly 32:42

it felt very much like girls be talking and shopping kind of thing

Sara 32:47

I, I do think there, you're right that there is a little bit of that in the prose because it was written in the ear- like early to mid '60s. And

Connor 32:55

My an old white man

Sara 32:56

yeah, like that's kind of the attitude that that men had towards women and girls, and that does, that does reflect. But I think that a lot of the more overt stuff, or not, not that that was less overt, but a, a lot of the, the more

Lilly 33:18

There's some systemic misogyny that we haven't broken down, but the purpose of the book is that she's right.

Sara 33:25

Yes. Yes.

Connor 33:26

a scene that I think is emblematic of this in, in book two that that I really liked where Tairn gets this sword and he goes over to her and everything and is like, "Can you fasten it on me?" and everything. And she's initially very flattered and everything and like, "Oh, wow, yeah, of course, yeah." And then, and then he's like, "Yeah, you're like the only girl in the castle, so of course I had to come to you." And she's like, "Well, Jesus, okay, fine. If I'm the only girl, that's-- I was, I was feeling special for a minute there. Jesus, you almost had me. God. You find someone else to do it. Fucking what's wrong with you?" And it's like the way it's framed is there's a little bit of framing of that with just sort of like, "God, women, am I right? They're just never grateful when you ask them to put your sword on for you," and everything. But at this-- But also fundamentally, it's also the judging Tai-Tairn 'cause like he's confused and doesn't understand what he did wrong. So there's also a bit of a, the a vibe of like, "Look at this fucking idiot who doesn't even understand why she's mad at him."

Sara 34:17

Yeah

Connor 34:19

So it's like the line between how much of it is this Tairn's perspective and how much of it is author's sort of... It's razor thin. There's a bit of both happening

Lilly 34:28

I'm back. The littlest fiction fan needed attention.

Connor 34:32

Oh yes, of course. We're gonna need his review of Green Eggs and Ham soon

Lilly 34:36

Yeah. I did, I re- read the first couple of chapters out loud to him, and it was very funny 'cause the first time I tried reading the first chapter, he just cried the whole time. He was like,

Connor 34:46

Oh no. Oh no

Lilly 34:49

But I think that was just because he needed to burp, but I've, I've decided to interpret it as a review of the novel instead.

Sara 34:56

I mean, Cookie also barked every time Hen Wen appeared on the screen, so that was a review of the movie

Lilly 35:02

Yeah. Oh, I think somehow... Well, okay, again, I only read the first half of the first book, so it's possible it gets turned around later, but I think Gurgi is worse in the book than in the movie somehow.

Connor 35:17

I liked... This is gonna be my hot take. I like movie Gherki better than book Gherki. I like, I, I thought he was adorable in the

Sara 35:26

these are hot takes. These are very

Connor 35:28

lo- I thought he was adorable in the movie. I loved his stupid little voice, just everything he was doing. I loved everything about him in the movie. In the book, part of it was I read the audiobook. It might've been the guy was doing a really weird voice that really got on my nerves. So that might've been part of it. I liked his voice a lot less than the voice for the animated one. But the whole, all the rhyming event, it started to grate on me over time.

Sara 35:53

Crunchings and munchings

Connor 35:54

I know, I know. But also

Lilly 35:58

all of that weird stuff and the, and the like kind of unreliability and quirkiness totally worked for a random animal companion. Very strange as a human being.

Sara 36:13

He's, he's not a human being though.

Lilly 36:15

They call him a wild man.

Sara 36:16

He's

Connor 36:17

they pull Tairn aside at one point and he's like, "Listen, listen. Gurgi exists in an existentially terrifying half state between man and beast. Are you taking notes, Tairn? Remember this. He's in a horrifying half state where he is neither man nor beast and will never truly be at home in any society." It's like, Jesus, okay. Damn. He lives a tortured existence, Tairn. Please remember this."

Lilly 36:41

I, it, just, the like uncivilized wild man thing didn't sit well with me.

Sara 36:48

I mean, he he is... So I view him kind of like a werewolf. He's, he's, he's described as this humanoid figure that's shaggy like a wolfhound. So he's, he's, yeah, neither, neither man nor beast. He's not

Connor 37:06

I mean, I think

Sara 37:08

but not really an

Connor 37:09

is that they turn into wolves. Isn't that their whole thing is turning into like an actual wolf?

Sara 37:15

it depends on the, the style of werewolf

Connor 37:18

That's fair. There's some that, there's some that that'll be like the, the 1930s horror movies where it's just a dude in a fur suit or whatever

Sara 37:25

Yeah.

Lilly 37:25

is very dude in a fur

Sara 37:27

Yeah, that is,

Connor 37:28

do like that I do like the idea of Gurgi as the Wolf Man from, like, the 1930s or whatever the fuck. That's good

Sara 37:35

basically how I've always imagined him

Connor 37:37

Yeah, I-- this is part of where seeing the movie as a kid sort of influenced me. I was just picturing the cartoon in my head, but maybe a little bit taller.

Lilly 37:45

Mm-hmm.

Connor 37:45

I like the, the id- if I pictured him as this sort of horror movie monster that's like this funky little dude, that might change my perspective a little bit, honestly. Now the more I'm thinking about that. Goddamn. That's a great visual

Sara 38:02

You're welcome

Lilly 38:04

I, maybe I gave him too-- attributed too many human traits to him, but I was like, this is just an adult man who cannot handle himself, and that is really frustrating. Like, not, not that I was annoyed with him, but like just

Connor 38:18

he on the quest?

Lilly 38:20

the, the way the character was handled. I was just like, what is happening? He should be just a quirky little animal companion. Like that worked.

Sara 38:28

Yeah, I don't, I don't think he's quite as human as, as you're attributing to him.

Lilly 38:33

Fair enough. Because they were just like, "He's a guy with messy hair," and I was like, "Yikes."

Connor 38:37

Mm.

Sara 38:39

would... Yes, that would... I can see why if that's, if that's how you were reading him, I can see why that was very yikes.

Lilly 38:45

Yeah

Sara 38:46

I I do think that he gets much more of an arc in the movie. I mean, not that he doesn't go through character development in the books, because he does, but it's more over the course of the series and, and less over the course of the first two books. But in the movie, I mean, he gets to be the one who sacrifices himself because he realizes that the power of friendship is more important than his fear, and that's what teaches Taryn that it's not all about swords, and it, it's the emotional climax of the movie

Connor 39:23

I feel weird that Gurgi got the big emotional climax 'cause like number one, there's... I mentioned this to Kira when we were watching it where it's like he already tried to give the, the witches his crunchings and munchings. That's a pretty selfless act. He really loves those crunchings and munchings. So he's already done something for someone else, and I mean, it's not quite the same scale of sacrifice, but it's like the through line of him learning not to be selfish is not quite as clear as some with like Taran. But I also understand like you can't... If you reverse the dynamic, it's gonna be weird to have Gurgi plead with the witches or whatever the fuck. But also it's like I can kind of see how it would've been a lot more compelling if Taran was the one to throw himself in or whatever or learning that sort of self-sacrifice I can kinda get 'cause,

Sara 40:12

Well, Tairn was prepared to throw himself in. He was, He was going to

Connor 40:16

I know, but also it's, it's not the same if he doesn't have the follow through of someone taking... It, it's, it's like if I was gonna say it's like if Frodo was on top of Mount Doom, but I guess that is exactly what happened on top of Mount Doom. But it's also like, it's like if Frodo was on top of Mount Doom genuinely about to throw the ring into the fire, and then Gollum came and snatched it away, and it's like, well, that doesn't hit the same at all. The reason it works at Mount on Mount Doom is Frodo's like, "The ring is mine," and then everything happens. If Frodo was completely prepared to throw the ring into the fire and then Gollum comes in and steals it anyway, that undercuts the emotional significance of that moment 'cause then someone is like, "Oh, hey, you're about to make a really, really difficult emotionally resonant decision that's going to tie your character arc in a little bow. How about I come in and just yoink that away from you, and you can just reject a sword later?" It's like, uh, I don't know. It felt weird that his arc happened after the climax. The climax comes in and everything, and then a, as a neat little bow at the end of the movie, he's like, "Oh, me too, by the way. I also, I also had a character arc." I don't know. I see why they did it that way. I think it, like I, I, it would've been weird and difficult to do it any other way within the constraints that they had, but it's also like, I would've respected the movie better if they, if they committed to just having him absolutely fucking... If they made Taran take the jump

Sara 41:39

That would've been wild.

Connor 41:41

That would've been so wild He could come back to life and everything. Just, just have Eilonwy bargain with the witches or something, and that's her big character moment or some shit like that. That would've actually... Like, come on. I'm writing this movie for them. Hire me to write the live action adaptation

Sara 41:58

Well, the live action adaptation, if there ever was one... There was talk at one point

Connor 42:03

I remember that

Sara 42:04

it was going to get some kind of reboot. But I would hope that it would be more faithful to the books and less, a remake of the movie

Connor 42:14

Fingers crossed they would. Oh, they would absolutely, 'cause all, all those live action movies are, are like importing every ounce of extra content they can get to be like, "We're for adults now instead of that lame, stupid children's stuff." So they're like trying to inject stuff from extra source material and everything. They would absolutely pull

Lilly 42:31

Remember how everyone loved "We'll Make a Man Out of You"? Let's take that out entirely. Yeah

Connor 42:37

Why-- You're coming to see "Mulan" 'cause you wanted a musical, idiot? Like, what's wrong with you?

Sara 42:43

The Black Cauldron: The Musical

Connor 42:45

Yes, there we go. Perfect.

Sara 42:48

I mean, I'd watch it

Connor 42:49

That does sound actually... That would, that would actually go really go f- good for a stage adaptation. Oh, I do wanna see that. Wow I need Taran's "I want" song immediately. That-- He, he would have such a good "I want" song. Oh my God

Sara 43:07

I mean, I, I would, I would watch the heck out of that

Connor 43:10

That would be really cool. The movie is so boring that we actively have to write fan fiction about it in order to make it better

Lilly 43:18

Well, was there anything else that we wanted to cover?

Sara 43:22

I mean, I can c- I can complain more about things, but

Connor 43:25

keep going if you want. I mean, you have the whole Gregory going into the cauldron versus Elidir. There's, what else is there? There's the comparisons to "Lord of the Rings," although we already sort of touched on

Sara 43:33

yeah Yeah. And I mean, we didn't talk about Elixir who's a character in book two who goes into the cauldron instead. And even, even though basically from the moment the cauldron dilemma is introduced, you know that it's gonna be Elixir, it still felt, felt more emotionally satisfying than Gurgi going in, I think.

Connor 43:56

I remember texting you as I was reading the book being like, "They've got the cauldron. The only way to destroy it is for someone to willingly climb inside. If only there were some character obsessed with honor and glory and making a name for himself who is reckless and doesn't have time for a character arc who might need to

Sara 44:15

Get

Connor 44:16

to do something, to get redeemed who has missed his shot at glory. I wonder if maybe someone... If but no, there's no character who fits that bill in this plot, so unfortunately I don't think they're gonna find a way to destroy this one." So, but it did genuinely, to your credit, I was-- It's like you see it a mile away, but it's also like, yeah, it's a credit to how well these themes are crafted and the things that it's meditating on are laid out that you can track the through line of like, okay, well, this is a book that's about this thing, that's about like maturing and accepting responsibility for your actions and everything. Here's a character who doesn't do that. They will need a chance to do that. You can kind of plug in what that happens. It t- it shows you how well that the, all of this is laid out as opposed to the movie that I might be more angry about it than I thought I was. Now, now that I'm, now I was,

Sara 45:06

Yes, join, join me in my anger

Connor 45:08

me. It all just washed over me and I was all analytical about it la- like yesterday when I was watching it. But the more I discuss it, the more I actually dig into it, I'm like, "Damn, yeah, the movie's ending was very thematically muddled and it was not really very clearly laid out at all. Oh my God. No." Yeah, 'cause like, f- what the fuck? Yeah, they took away the big hero moment. If I could... I think it would've been really cool if Taron in the movie was this weird mishmash of Elidir and himself in this sort of way, 'cause we've already got like the whole scene with him with the sword running around the castle with his proto lightsaber 'cause you gotta cash in on that 'cause it's the '80s and everything. So it's like he's running around with that. He's acting like Elidir and everything, and a lot of the framing is sort of like, has more in common with Elidir than with the person Taron is sort of, becoming in the books. That would've, I, I think it would've been cool to have him as this sort of mashup character who willingly crawls into the thing.

Sara 46:02

I, I do think that it would've been better as as a mashup, but that's not what we got. I can also complain about some of the design decisions, but we don't, we don't need that.

Connor 46:11

No, wait, no, I do wanna hear about the

Lilly 46:13

Why is Gurgi a, a adorable little animal friend? I don't know, but I loved it. I'm

Sara 46:17

Yeah.

Connor 46:17

mop?

Sara 46:19

Why, why is there budget Esmeralda in one random castle scene?

Connor 46:23

love her. I love her. She was great

Sara 46:25

why is, why is Eilonwy's light bauble just basically Tinker Bell? Why is Eilonwy Princess Aurora?

Connor 46:32

I-- listen, do- don't-- I will take no, no besmirching of Esmeralda. She was the only ethical source of breasts in the movie at all. So you gotta get them in where you can. no.

Sara 46:46

We don't know if it was ethical though because she's in the villain lair. Is she being coerced to be there?

Connor 46:51

I mean, I feel like she would not be dancing as, as vigorously as she was

Sara 46:57

I, but that could be because she's under the pain of

Connor 47:00

you're right. Mm. Mm. Yeah, no, you're right. I am victim-blaming. That is problematic of me. Yeah. yeah. yeah. No, you're right. You're right. You're so right. Oh, yeah. There's the-- If the Horned King believes in one thing, it is ethical sex work.

Sara 47:13

I mean, maybe he does. We don't know

Connor 47:15

workers." Fucking... Oh, God.

Sara 47:19

And

Connor 47:19

Horned King, the, a very rare W for the Horned King

Sara 47:24

And then this is also not really a complaint per se, but Hen Wen was way more adorable than she's described in the books. Like, in the book she's described as this big old pig.

Lilly 47:35

yeah, she's a pig.

Sara 47:36

Yeah. And she's this, like, tiny little, little cute thing in the movie. She's very Disney. She's a very, very Disney adorable, yeah

Connor 47:44

Yeah

Lilly 47:45

I have a, an out of the loop question. So in the movie, Eilonwy is a princess who was presumably also kidnapped by the Horned King. It's not really gone into. But then at the end, he calls her a scullery maid, and I was like, "Whoa, is that a thing?" 'Cause she's been a huge bitch about being a princess and Taran being a pig keeper through the whole movie, and I was like, "Was that all a smoke screen? Is she not actually a princess? That's such a

Connor 48:12

Can you imagine?

Lilly 48:14

and then it's not brought up again at all. So I think maybe I was just inventing some things there.

Sara 48:19

I, I think that was just an invention. She is a princess.

Lilly 48:24

What if it was all a front? That would've been

Connor 48:26

That would've been so

Sara 48:27

that would've been neat, but the movie doesn't do interesting things like that.

Lilly 48:31

No. So in the book, she is Queen Akran's niece and is, like, a, from the, the sea folk or something. Kind of, kind of elf-y in, in a way. And she was sent there as to learn

Sara 48:49

Princessing and sorcery, yeah

Lilly 48:51

Now they don't ki- I don't think they actually call her a princess, at least not in the parts that I've gotten to

Sara 48:56

She is, She is, actually a princess.

Lilly 49:00

much more on the sorcery, which also, h-hey, wow, more interesting.

Sara 49:04

Yeah. Not, not present in the movie at

Connor 49:07

Yeah, no, she couldn't have a personality

Lilly 49:10

Oh no, you're right, because she can hold the sword that only royalty are supposed to hold, so she must be des- yeah, yeah. But they focus more on the sorcery part

Connor 49:19

also why are the fair folks like Keebler elves in this? I hadn't-- I thought that they were just like regular, just sort of Tolkien-esque elves in the books

Sara 49:27

they are in the books. They are so twee in, in the movie. That also bothered me a lot

Connor 49:34

Yeah, no, that was really-- I was like, "What, what is this? What's happening?" I thought that they were just normal elves, not just like the fucking... Oh, Jesus, that, that was, that was frustrating. I like the elves in the books, and then suddenly they're like, "Ah, yes, we'll shrink them down so they're Smurfs."

Sara 49:50

Yeah. There, there are a lot of decisions, like design decisions that are just unhinged and not in a good way

Connor 49:58

Yeah. We can take unhinged in a good way,

Sara 50:01

unhinged in a good way is fine. I'm, I'm here for that, but,

Connor 50:04

an

Lilly 50:04

I'm gonna argue, I think making Henwen an adorable pig is not an unhinged design decision.

Sara 50:09

No.

Lilly 50:11

The rest of those things I agree with you,

Sara 50:12

I'm excluding that decision because I'm not actually complaining about that. It just, it, it, it was something I noticed, but not something that bothered me

Connor 50:21

imagine if Hen Wen was this massive, like three times the size of Terran, just...

Sara 50:26

Like, I think that would've been funner,

Connor 50:29

leash is doing nothing. It is there purely for decoration

Lilly 50:33

Yeah. In, In, both the movie and the book, he's like, "Oh, I'll just grab her and stop her from running away." Pigs are huge.

Sara 50:39

Well, and noticeably he doesn't succeed in in the the book

Lilly 50:44

That's true. That's just him being

Sara 50:46

A four-- Yeah, a, a 14-year-old boy who thinks that he can do everything 'cause he's gonna be a hero

Connor 50:52

Classic 14-year-old boy move. I will just tackle this horrible behemoth that's three times my si- how hard could it be? It's very I could fight a bear kind of a thing

Lilly 51:01

Mm-hmm. Do you guys remember the, the teacup pig like c- no, I'm not gonna say craze, but trend from a while ago where celebrities would adopt a teacup pig, and then it turns out that's not a thing

Sara 51:13

And

Connor 51:14

No.

Sara 51:15

Yes

Connor 51:16

They were just adopting baby pigs and they would

Sara 51:18

Yes. Henwen is very much a teacup pig

Connor 51:22

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah

Lilly 51:24

mean, it's a fantasy novel, so you can do that. Or movie, I guess,

Sara 51:27

Yeah, 'cause I would not call her a teacup pig in the, in the book

Connor 51:31

No. Also, why do they just like, they're just like, "Oh, we're gonna send her home," and then you never see her again at like the two-thirds of the way through the movie. They just like, the fair folk are like, "We're gonna bring her home safe." And it's like, I feel like Lloyd Alexander would be very upset with this change 'cause his whole thing is like you have a responsibility and you have to see it through.

Sara 51:50

I mean, yeah, Terrance, Terrance's whole thing is he's, he's gonna bring back Hen Wen, and then the, the king of the fair folk says, "Oh, don't worry about it. I got her." And he's like, "Okay."

Connor 51:59

you have a climax you have to take part in

Sara 52:03

Lloyd Ale-

Lilly 52:04

you need to sidestep and totally avoid

Sara 52:07

Lloyd Alexander apparently had polite things to say about, about the movie. he, he did, he did note that it was very different from the books. But he was polite about the movie

Connor 52:19

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I w- I wanna get his behind-the-scenes opinions. I really wish that he... Oh, that would be so good. Oh, I wish he was less polite. I feel like I could p- that that's-- I would, I, I need those opinions. That would be really cool. Unfortunately, he's dead, I believe, but

Sara 52:41

He, he is dead. He, he died in 20-- no, 2008, I think. I remember being in English class learning that. I, I think because I had... We were on computers that day or something, and I was-- saw a news article or something and being very sad

Connor 53:02

Oh, that's devastating

Sara 53:04

I mean, I wouldn't call it devastating per se. It wasn't, it wasn't like that level of sad.

Connor 53:09

I thought you were like ride or die for this guy

Sara 53:11

I mean, I, I love "The Chronicles of Prydain," and I like his other books too that I've read, but,

Lilly 53:17

Conveniently, the books exist after they die.

Connor 53:19

Yeah. That's, that's true, yeah. No, that's, yeah, it's, it's, if the best you could say about it is that they're different that does seem-- I think that says a lot in and of itself.

Sara 53:30

Yes. Well, I think that I've gotten to the end of my complaining. I mean, I can complain some more, but it's just gonna be repetitive at this point, so there's not really any need for that.

Connor 53:42

fair.

Lilly 53:42

If you could only change one thing about the movie, what would it be? You had to pick one thing to

Connor 53:49

Oh my God, Oh my God, you can't do this to me.

Sara 53:54

change one thing I think it would be Eilanwy's characterization

Connor 54:00

Yeah

Sara 54:01

Because I think that that's the I don't wanna say it's the, the most disappointing thing because everything is so disappointing about the movies. But I think that it would go a long way to making me feel better about the movie if Eilowen was more active the way she is in in the books, and if if she was a little less damsel in distress

Connor 54:34

Yeah. I think making her closer to her book counterpart also has these sort of downstream effects where it would change a lot of the thematic framing that would bring it more in line with the books. And I think that if, if you could change one thing, that would be the sort of linchpin change you could do to try and bring it more in line with the complex sort of nuances that are being discussed by the book.

Sara 54:57

Ja

Lilly 54:58

Interesting. So no one is choosing more frogs getting smooshed by witch titties.

Connor 55:03

I mean, if we could have two things, that's definitely top of the list

Lilly 55:08

Top three but not top one. That's fair. Okay. Okay.

Connor 55:12

For sure

Sara 55:12

And, and like with, with the perspective of an adult who has seen a lot more adaptations now, I can kind of understand why they made the changes that they did to the plot and, and why they chose to condense the two books in this way. I still don't like it, but I can be a little bit more charitable about it now than I could when I was eight. So I don't necessarily think that they need to do a lot of changing to the basic framework of the story. It's just a lot of the characterization

Connor 55:52

Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that

Sara 55:56

And like, you, you know, as much as I love Gwydion, you don't need him in there

Connor 56:01

Yeah

Sara 56:02

because y- then you get just, it like, the movie gets too crowded and it, it goes pretty fast anyway, but you

Connor 56:09

long as the major beats like ca--

Sara 56:11

Y-

Connor 56:11

the, the thing about the books is they're paced in this way where it's like each chapter forms like this little thing that a character does to demonstrate a, a degree of growth. And as long as those beats are getting hit, I think a lot of the characters can go, sort of get shuffled around a little bit or streamlined in a way, as long as the, those character beats are still there.

Sara 56:29

Yeah

Lilly 56:30

Well, wonderful. Connor, thank you. I would say thank you for joining us, but really I should say thank you guys for letting me hop on to this conversation that I did not prepare for.

Connor 56:41

I've realized I at no point introduced myself or explained anything about what my whole deal is. You just said my name and I'm like, Oh, they know Who I am."

Lilly 56:49

Hey, who are you?

Connor 56:51

I'm an author, SPIFFO finalist. I wrote I, I have two books out, "The Falls Alder Is" and "The Diplomacy of the Knife" about quadruplet royals in a civil war for the throne in a weird science fiction fantasy post, post-apocalyptics. There have been two apocalypses and everything, and I write a lot of weird, crazy shit. The craziest shit you've ever seen with pacing that feels like you're having a heart attack. And you can find me on TikTok and Instagram, thecmkaplan, and on Blue Sky as cmkaplanwrites. And yeah, that and I've done a number of podcasts with you, and I doubt anyone listening doesn't know who I am at this point.

Sara 57:28

Yeah, if, if you've been listening to our podcast, you know Connor. Go, go follow Connor on all the

Connor 57:34

Yeah. If you haven't been following me already for the, since like 2021, what are you doing? Why are you even listening to this podcast?

Sara 57:42

I mean, maybe they're just big fans of Lloyd Alexander

Connor 57:45

True. Yeah. I gotta get the Lloyd Alexander fans on board. That's so important

Sara 57:49

It's true Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 57:58

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara 58:09

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 58:16

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 58:23

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!