RERELEASE: The Light Fantastic by Terry Pratchett

Your hosts continue their Journey to the Center of the Discworld with a discussion of tourism and barbarian fantasy tropes in The Light Fantastic by Terry Pratchett. This episode also includes a brief visit to the Pet Peeve Corner.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:10

and I'm Sarah, and today we're re-releasing an episode that we recorded when we first started the podcast.

Lilly 0:16

so we won't be doing our quick five minute intro this time.

Sara 0:20

During the first year of the podcast, we combined two book conversations into each episode along with some related segments like Pet Peeve Corner, and words are weird.

Lilly 0:30

We decided to republish those conversations as separate episodes to give those books a better chance to shine.

Sara 0:37

These have been slightly remastered, but you can still enjoy our Peak 2021 Microphone Technology.

Lilly 0:43

If you want to listen to the original double feature, these are episodes two through 23 in our podcast feed.

Sara 0:50

And as always, come disagree with us.

Lilly 0:54

We return to you again on this. Our second step of our journey to the center of the disc World Book two is called The Light. Fantastic. And of course, you know, for those of you not in the Know, disc World is a series of books written by Terry Pret.

Sara 1:12

So late and great.

Lilly 1:14

The latent great ser Terry prt, excuse me. It was pointed out to me that we never actually explained what the fuck a disc world is.

Sara 1:24

Who needs that kind of information anyway?

Lilly 1:26

You know, you know,

Sara 1:28

Shaw?

Lilly 1:29

basic setting details

Sara 1:32

Nah, that's not important. That's not important.

Lilly 1:36

well other than an ambiguously fantasy setting. What is a disc world, Sarah?

Sara 1:42

So the disc world is a disc that is carried on the back of four turtles.

Lilly 1:50

No, it's not.

Sara 1:51

No, it's not. I'm getting this completely. Like I know, I know. You know how when someone asks you a question and you're not expecting it, you just like your, your brain clams up even though you completely know the answer, like.

Lilly 2:03

Well, it's like we didn't explain it last time because asking what a disc world is is like asking. What I can't even come up with a simile now.

Sara 2:13

What an earth is.

Lilly 2:14

Yeah. Like what, what's a, what is a cat? Like, how do you explain what a cat is? It's, it's a cat. It just is.

Sara 2:21

Yeah, I mean, so in, in this case, the disc world is, well, a disc that is carried on the backs of four elephants, not turtles, but the elephants are standing on a turtle who is swimming through space.

Lilly 2:32

And a disc specifically, we mean a flat planet.

Sara 2:36

Yes. With water streaming off of its sides.

Lilly 2:40

So that, and I mean that is relevant, right? Because at the end of the Color of Magic, we leave rinse, wind, and Two Flower, the main characters of these books plummeting over the side of the disc.

Sara 2:54

Yes.

Lilly 2:55

There were, they were launched into space, and that is almost exactly where this book picks up.

Sara 3:00

Yeah. I mean this, there's very little time in between the end of the color of magic and the start of the light. Fantastic.

Lilly 3:07

I don't remember how much this comes up in the color of magic but our main critique of the Color of magic and by consequence, the light fantastic. Is that these feel more like a series of punchlines than a true narrative with a beginning, middle, and end. Would you say that's fair?

Sara 3:29

I'd say that's fair of the first one. I mean, the color of magic definitely has. I would say four distinct arcs to it, but this one was much more coherent.

Lilly 3:41

I was gonna say, this one introduced a through line that you sort of followed through all of the different hijinks. That rinse, wind, and two flower get into, there's the sort of B plot of the wizards at the unseen university trying to unravel a mystery that is sort of tangentially related to rinse wind until it is much more. So, why should you read this book, Sarah? Is it, is it obvious because this world is good and you, it's part of it.

Sara 4:09

I mean, there's, there's that like, it, it has Terry practice characteristic wit and humor, even if it's not quite as refined as you get in later books. And it also has some really interesting social commentary. But in general, I think they're just, they're fun books this one is no different. It's, it's fun.

Lilly 4:27

It is, and definitely if you're gonna read The Color of Magic, you should read this one too. I don't think you have to necessarily read one for the other.

Sara 4:36

I would, I would almost say if you're only going to read one of the two, I would almost say read the light. Fantastic.

Lilly 4:43

Oh yeah, because he catches you up at the beginning of the book, not with with a plot of the color of magic, but he reintroduces all of the characters to you. Although we still aren't recommending that you start Disc World with this book.

Sara 4:57

the, the book to start Disco World with no.

Lilly 4:59

So. If you already know DISC world, don't worry about spoilers. If you don't already know DISC world, go read a different one first and then come back and don't worry about spoilers. Does that sound fair?

Sara 5:13

I think that about sums it up. Yeah.

Lilly 5:15

All right. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Sara 5:24

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly 5:30

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Sara 5:38

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly 5:46

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. One of the things we did love about the Color of magic, I phrased that weird. We loved the whole book. Just, you know, one of the parts that stands on its own merit and not our obsessive fan girling is the way he subverts classic fantasy tropes. This book, the Light Fantastic. Has a few new ones for us to enjoy.

Sara 6:14

Although they're not quite as, I mean the source material that he is using in the first, it's much more segregated in the first book.

Lilly 6:26

Hmm.

Sara 6:26

Like it's, it's not a through line. The way that it is here,

Lilly 6:30

He, he sort of integrates the different references together instead of having each one stand in its own part.

Sara 6:36

Yeah, I, I think, I think the integration is much better.

Lilly 6:39

Oh yeah, definitely.

Sara 6:41

Not that it's not very clear that he is riffing on Conan the Barbarian, I mean the, the barbarian is called koen. Like,

Lilly 6:48

I love that though. What happens when Conan gets old?

Sara 6:51

it's wonderful.

Lilly 6:52

a great question.

Sara 6:54

It is a really good question.

Lilly 6:56

He loses all his teeth and it's really sad.

Sara 6:58

He has a really good quote about it on about how he never gets any royalties. That's the saga of my life. 80 years in the business and what have I got to show for it? Bache piles bad digestion and a hundred d different recipes for soup because, and I'm not doing the accent. Believe you me, you would be thanking me for that.

Lilly 7:19

Because he is lost all his teeth,

Sara 7:21

has lost all his teeth. Yeah.

Lilly 7:23

but he gets dentures by the end, so you know that's a successful character arc.

Sara 7:28

all works out. Yeah.

Lilly 7:30

Okay, so he does end up with the sexy young virgin sacrifice that they rescue, and I have to remind myself that this book is hilarious and that is supposed to be hilarious because if you remind yourself, or at least I had to remind myself that that's a joke and not because you just see that so often that it's hard to remember that PRT means it as to be funny.

Sara 7:54

Yeah, I mean he's, he's very definitely taking that as. I mean, yes, it's, it's a joke.

Lilly 8:01

It's a joke, but then you get it like in real life actors in Hollywood, a woman will play an actor's wife in one movie and then a year later play his mother.

Sara 8:14

Mm-hmm.

Lilly 8:15

So like that age disparity between the genders is maybe just a so point for me. But it's a joke. It's okay.

Sara 8:27

Yeah, he does. He does not mean for it to be taken seriously as any sort of like actual relationship between the two.

Lilly 8:34

Right? And like Behan is a great character.

Sara 8:38

She is,

Lilly 8:39

The sacrifice that they rescue Behan. Hmm.

Sara 8:42

about being rescued too. She wanted to be sacrificed. I.

Lilly 8:45

I love, like, he is so good. This fuck is so funny. There is another gender issue that PRT rifs on, and I wanna say rifts instead of touches on because it's really, it is, like I said, it's a joke. It's supposed to be funny. It's okay. And he does do such a good job of the characters are being ridiculous. But you can clearly tell that he is making fun of them. You know, PRT isn't saying that this is okay. He's just saying this is how they think. The Wizarding school, the unseen university is, is all men. All wizards in this world are men.

Sara 9:18

And the senior officials or administrators who we see. Who are genuinely, generally the o only wizards that we see especially at this point in the series are, are old, all old men

Lilly 9:32

I mean, he's, he's clearly riffing off of academia, right?

Sara 9:35

probably.

Lilly 9:37

These old professors who do nothing but smoke and pontificate.

Sara 9:42

Old fuddy, duddies.

Lilly 9:44

Yeah. So at one point, rinse wind is a. Needs the help of a, of a spirit woman, not a spirit woman of a chieftain's grandmother. She doesn't even really have a title, just some lady who can do magic.

Sara 9:59

I mean, shaman

Lilly 10:00

But there is a shaman that we see and in a different area is the only reason why I don't wanna use that phrase. It doesn't matter. She, she's a practitioner of magic and she reads his tarot cards. He's like, I don't even believe in those. Those are women's work and it's hilarious. Trust me, you had to be there. But the actual line, so he's confronted with meeting this woman to help him. He still had his pride and wizards don't like to see women perform. Even simple magic unseen. University had never admitted women muttering something about problems with the plumbing, but the real reason was an unspoken dread. If women were allowed to mess around with magic, they would probably be embarrassingly good at it. One of the other very poignant jokes that he makes is about classism that you, you noted this one actually.

Sara 10:54

Oh yeah. So there is a section in the book where Rinse, who is talking about it.

Lilly 11:02

He's probably talking about two flower.

Sara 11:06

Yes, he is. He is talking about two, two flower actually.

Lilly 11:08

reading the quote, I could tell.

Sara 11:10

Yes. So rinse, wind and Cohen are talking about two flour and. Wind is saying that essentially two flowers, vision of what has just happened is a lot more idealistic and rose colored than what actually just happened. And so Cohen asks, he's mad, sort of mad but mad with lots of money. Then he can't be mad. I've been around if a man has lots of money, he's just eccentric, which I think really neatly points out the double standards by which the wealthy and poor are judged. Like by, by metric, you would be judged as right, except that you have money. So of course you're right.

Lilly 11:54

I mean, I think a really obvious example of that is hoarding.

Sara 11:57

Yeah.

Lilly 11:59

You can have the same amount of stuff, but if it's, if you have a professional cleaner come in and dust it all the time, then suddenly you're not a hoarder.

Sara 12:06

If it's on shelves,

Lilly 12:08

Yeah,

Sara 12:08

know, that makes it all. Okay.

Lilly 12:10

there, this is jumping ahead a little bit, but I think,

Sara 12:14

kind of been jumping around the whole time.

Lilly 12:16

I mean, so I'm not even talking about this book anymore.

Sara 12:18

Oh

Lilly 12:19

but on the same note.

Sara 12:21

mm-hmm.

Lilly 12:22

Something that I probably, well, maybe this is just the corner of the internet that I inhabit, but probably the most quoted passage from Terry PRT is Sam Vi's Economic Theory of Boots. Bootstraps, or, that's not exactly what it is, but

Sara 12:43

it's his economic theory of it might just be boots or boot soles. 'cause he's talking

Lilly 12:48

Right.

Sara 12:49

specifically about boot soles and wearing out,

Lilly 12:52

We'll get into that when we get to those books, but I just think that's a very, an off repeated quote of PRTs and just kind of reinforces his his really pithy way of just sort of exposing and digging into these soft points in society that maybe people get comfortable with not looking at.

Sara 13:14

That's a quote from men at arms. By the way,

Lilly 13:16

Okay.

Sara 13:17

his, his theory of economic inequality or whatever.

Lilly 13:21

I thought it had a sillier name than that. That's just a very serious name.

Sara 13:25

The The Sam Emes Boots Theory of Economic Injustice,

Lilly 13:28

There you go.

Sara 13:29

but it comes from the book Minute Arms.

Lilly 13:31

Well, we'll get there someday

Sara 13:34

We will get there Eventually,

Lilly 13:36

and we'll talk about it again and.

Sara 13:37

we will. But yeah, I mean, a, a theme that runs through his books are he, he points out some of the more unpleasant realities of our world through means of humor in this fantasy world. And he does it really, really well.

Lilly 13:55

He gets away with being a lot more pointed and explicit because he's talking about. Because he's ostensibly talking about the disc world, right. So he like, he is criticizing the disc world. But of course when you're reading it, you're like, well, obviously that is also true about our, you know, our society when it's couched jokes and talking about this flat planet on the back of four elephants on the back of a turtle swimming through space. It just softens it.

Sara 14:29

A spoonful of sugar.

Lilly 14:31

Exactly, exactly. A spoonful of disc world.

Sara 14:36

One thing not really related to the social commentary at all but that I get a big kick out of is that he paints the Druids as sort of the equivalent of engineers they're talking about like, you know, our, our computer programming can't be wrong. These, these giant stones that we have can't be wrong. It's actually the song that's wrong. And I just, I mean, that's, that's my field and I just, I love it. It makes me so happy. I laugh every time I see it.

Lilly 15:08

I had actually completely forgotten about that, and when I got to that part, I almost did a spit take.

Sara 15:14

It's so good.

Lilly 15:15

It's so charming. I.

Sara 15:18

Charming is a really good way to describe this book and his writing. In general. I think

Lilly 15:24

You know who else is very charming Death.

Sara 15:30

we see here we see a much more familiar death. I feel if you have, he's, he's much closer to the death that appears in the later books.

Lilly 15:42

In this book Two Flower is trying to teach the four writers of the apocalypse. I got the impression it was bridge

Sara 15:51

Yes. I, I think it's bridge.

Lilly 15:53

and it's some goofy disc world version of bridge.

Sara 15:56

Well, there's a running joke throughout the first book in this book that a lot of two flowers language. Doesn't really translate well, like it's modern language and that he would use terms like insurance and, and dentures and things like that. And that doesn't translate well to the onor pork dialect. And so there's a lot of miscommunication around the characters. Trying to explain in outlandish ways making, making the mouth sounds for dentures or insurance or whatever in sewer ants.

Lilly 16:28

Now there is one other note that we have to get to just because it involved you texting me, is ejaculate masculine.

Sara 16:39

I, I, I was asking because I, I did very specifically want to call wizardry ejaculatory because I first at one point, rinse wind is. Doing magic, which is not something that he's used to doing as I think we've said before. He is a very bad wizard. The text says that he is possibly the worst wizard on the disc, but he has this spell in his head, and this spell is essentially doing magic through rinse, wind. And he says that it was. He talks about how it was better than orgasming. And I made a note because I think actually this is one of the only times in the series that PRT actually talks about like orgasms, at least using that term. But that's not something that I could Google on my computer because I use my work computer for everything. And that's not a phrase you want in your work computer history.

Lilly 17:40

One of our clients was a sex toy chain, so I could Google whatever I want.

Sara 17:45

Aren't you lucky?

Lilly 17:49

Well, not the exact same thing, and probably comes up more often just because of the trope of virginity in human culture.

Sara 17:56

I, I think, I mean, I, I think that he talks about it, but not in so blunt terms. I.

Lilly 18:03

Right. Well, I like when Bethany is introduced. One of the reasons why she's so mad, Beth, sorry, not Bethany. Behan, who is the. Sacrifice that they rescued from being sacrificed her. The reason she gives for being so mad is that all of those Saturday nights where I just did nothing down the drain.

Sara 18:22

I mean, you know, can,

Lilly 18:24

Do you know how hard it is to stay? To stay?

Sara 18:27

Can you blame her? Like

Lilly 18:28

not at all.

Sara 18:29

little peeved.

Lilly 18:30

Yeah, that's a commitment, but that. That's an example of PRT being a little bit more coy. Like he doesn't even use the word virgin until like three pages later. But, you know, oh, a sacrifice saying that she gave like for went something in order to be a, to qualify as a sacrifice. We all know what she was talking about.

Sara 18:52

Yeah. I would argue that one knows even earlier because I feel like Druids and virgin sacrifices are something that's ingrained in popular culture, if not actual like historical realism.

Lilly 19:05

Homegirl was dressed at all white. I think we know what that means, but PRT communicates exactly the situation without actually saying it outright. Whereas when rinse wind is talking later about magic, it feels a lot more to the point. And I explicit, but then I'm not saying that like the word orgasm is explicit, but it's.

Sara 19:31

comparatively explicit.

Lilly 19:33

In, in a figurative language sense, not in a dirty language sense.

Sara 19:40

Yeah. But yeah, so I, because wizardry very much a boys club, as we've said before, like the unseen university only accepts men. It's all old men at, at the top of it. So my note was wizardry is ejaculatory.

Lilly 19:59

and that's backed up in later books, and it does feel bad pulling. That doesn't feel bad. It feels like cheating, pulling in stuff that I know happens later because it hasn't happened yet. But we do eventually meet witches. We do later see a society of magic users that are women, and it is very completely. Not wizardry. And I do think a lot of that is PRT pulling from our culture, right?

Sara 20:31

I mean, there's the, there, there, you know, the maiden mother and crone trope and the wise woman trope he is playing on. Yeah.

Lilly 20:39

Female magic users in stories tend to be othered. You know, they're the witches in the swamp. They're not the wizard at court helping the king.

Sara 20:48

They also tend to not have as academic a kind of magic like wizardry tends to be very rule-based, whereas witchcraft is more emotion-based. mean,

Lilly 21:02

Well, that almost hearkens back to ancient Greek philosophers saying women are more similar to animals than people because there's not even anything going on in their heads. Yeah. People have been saying that about ladies for a very long time. And, and PRT is just sort of,

Sara 21:19

Yeah. I mean, he's, he's playing on

Lilly 21:20

is running with that. Yeah, so I, I just wanted to back him up and like, he didn't make all of the wizards dudes and all of the witches ladies because that was his decision. Like he was, he clearly has a basis in, in cultural references.

Sara 21:37

he's very clearly like. it's, it's just another trope.

Lilly 21:41

Well, let's leave our listeners off with a short excerpt from the Light. Fantastic. By Terry Pret.

Sara 21:49

Okay, this is a quote from kind of the end of the book, and I really like it because I think it's a good reminder that no, you might not do any good or be any use in a situation, but that's not necessarily a reason to not try. And it is two flower talking to RINs wind. Hold on. He said as cheerfully as he could manage this sort of thing is a job for the likes of Cohen. Not you. No offense. RINs wind. By the way, would he do any good wind looked up at the actinic light that lance down through the distant hole at the top of the staircase? No, he admitted then I'd be as good as him wouldn't. I said to flower flourishing his looted sword.

Lilly 22:35

So I got a great, or maybe an excellent series of texts from you the other day.

Sara 22:39

A very annoyed series of texts. Anyway, I don't know about great or excellent, but yeah, I was reading a fan fiction and the main character, one of the main characters is a very strong cockney accent, and so the author wrote that out like. And I can't, I can't even, I mean, I, I don't really wanna make you suffer through hearing me try to approximate it.

Lilly 23:06

But that's what reading it was like, I assume.

Sara 23:09

Yes, It was a very phonetic dialogue where were lots of, you know, missing consonants Like ooze, and it was just, it was awful. Like it was painful to read. I had, you know, blood streaming out the side of my Like, it, it was just, I, it was so bad. And I think accents a strong accents like that, like, I don't mind a hint of an accent here and there, you know,

Lilly 23:43

Mm-hmm.

Sara 23:44

strong accents that are mm-hmm.

Lilly 23:46

Well, it's, it's okay if a character has an accent. It's just how they write it.

Sara 23:51

Yeah. I, I certainly don't mind if a character has an accent, and I don't even mind if it's written into the dialogue a little bit, but when it's a really strong accent, it just, it's so jarring to see it in the dial, like phonetically in the dialogue.

Lilly 24:08

Mm-hmm.

Sara 24:08

completely takes me out of the story if I'm trying to decipher what they're saying because they're missing, you know, they're, they're missing letters all over the place.

Lilly 24:17

I think accents are one situation where I would rather you tell and not show.

Sara 24:23

yes, definitely. Like, okay, so maybe for example, if they're French and they have some Zs in there like that I deal with, anything stronger or harder than that, I'm like, please just, just tell me. Don't show me. But so that's my pet peeve for the, the episode.

Lilly 24:44

That sure is frustrating.

Sara 24:46

The, the f is otherwise very good. So I'm gonna continue to read it and I hope that the accent just goes away at some point, like training or something. But,

Lilly 24:57

Maybe that'll be a whole plot arc. 'cause this character goes through speech therapy.

Sara 25:02

I hope so. I mean, I don't know how much more of that I can, I can take

Lilly 25:08

Well, fingers crossed for you.

Sara 25:09

thanks. I appreciate it.

Lilly 25:17

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara 25:21

Come disagree with us! We're on Blue Sky and Instagram, at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com. Or leave a comment on YouTube.

Lilly 25:32

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara 25:40

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly 25:46

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara 25:50

Bye!