Shake Out the Ghosts by Al Hess

Your hosts discuss the perils of mood reading, romance as an impetus for character growth, and the perfectly paced character reveals in Shake Out the Ghosts by Al Hess.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah, and today we'll be talking about Shake Out the Ghosts by Al Hess.

Lilly 0:15

but first we have our quick five minute introduction. Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:21

I suspect that we may have the same answer to this question this episode, but I went up to Seattle to visit you for your baby shower. It was delightful. Really nice to see you and your husband.

Lilly 0:34

Yeah, I will add a specific onto that for my answer so that it's not exactly the same as yours, but we took you to our favorite brunch slash neighborhood bar place

Sara 0:45

It was really good.

Lilly 0:47

is really good, right?

Sara 0:48

I would like to go back there and eat more of their food.

Lilly 0:52

Their food is good and I have a warm spot in my heart for them because we went with friends once in the evening, not for brunch, and they had like two hours before close. But we felt bad'cause we were like the only people in there, you know when you feel like you're imposing. But they were so cool and we just like sat there taking up place. Sat there taking up space, playing board games because there was no one else there. And they kept giving us re free refills for the chips and dip So they were nice.

Sara 1:25

I liked, I liked the vibes. They seemed like good people and just a really nice local place.

Lilly 1:33

And the brunch is always full of families. There's always little kids there. It's like a crazy, it's, it's one of those weird mixes between like a family friendly restaurant but also a bar.

Sara 1:44

Yes,

Lilly 1:45

Anyway, it was great taking you there and showing you also they have skeletons, like giant life-size skeletons as part of the decor. So what's not to love?

Sara 1:54

you have to love giant skeletons.

Lilly 1:57

Mm-hmm. What are you drinking today?

Sara 2:00

I have spent all afternoon weeding in the backyard, so I am hydrating and just drinking water.

Lilly 2:07

Well that's good. You gotta gotta stave off the heat stroke from whatever ungodly heat wave you're getting there in spring.

Sara 2:15

It, it is quite warm. I mean high seventies, so not like crazy, crazy warm, but

Lilly 2:23

I wouldn't call that spring weather though.

Sara 2:25

I wouldn't call it spring weather. Definitely warm enough that when you spend multiple hours outside in the sun doing yard work, you do want to drink a lot of water.

Lilly 2:35

Yes, I have a can of milk tea. which is not nearly as sweet as sometimes canned milk. Tea is, and I mean, there's still sugar in it. It's still sweetened, but sometimes you open one and you're like, oh, that's just sugar. There's no tea in this.

Sara 2:55

That sounds like something I would at least give a shot to versus normally I don't because they are too sweet for me.

Lilly 3:02

Yeah. I mean, still definitely has sugar in it.

Sara 3:05

Sure. But I would at least try it rather than decline it immediately.

Lilly 3:10

And it is, it actually tells me the kind of tea it is. It's Assam, which is a black tea that I love and have not had in a very long time, and it actually tastes like tea and not, you know, sugar.

Sara 3:24

It sounds like a good milk tea variety. Then

Lilly 3:27

It is really good. Yeah, I am enjoying it quite a bit. Have you read anything not podcast related lately?

Sara 3:35

I read a fun thread on Blue Sky about why, calling Easter Jesus, a zombie is inappropriate, not because of any like, theological issues with it, but because zombie is the wrong kind of undead.

Lilly 3:52

Yeah, that makes sense.

Sara 3:53

Yeah, it was, it was a fun thread, but the actual answer is no. I haven't done any non podcast book reading.

Lilly 4:00

All right. Let's talk about Shake Out the Ghosts. I think we both struggled to get into this book.

Sara 4:07

I definitely did. And not because of any issues with the quality of the book itself. Like it was well written, I just was not in the mood to read about two sad artist boys,

Lilly 4:22

Yeah,

Sara 4:24

and this is about two sad artists, boys. So I struggled.

Lilly 4:28

I also did for the exact same reason, am glad that we persevered partially because it is like some nice variety. It is still definitely. SFFs, but it's more magical realism, I'd say than like, you know, elf pirates or something.

Sara 4:48

Yeah, it's definitely genre. But I agree, it's kind of closer to the magical realism side. There are some things that make it more genre that are spoilery, so I'm not gonna go into them. And it was a nice change of pace. I did, as the story progressed, I did get into it more and I ended up enjoying it a lot more than I thought that I would. When I first started but I, I just, yeah, I had trouble, but it's, it was a me problem.

Lilly 5:20

Well, I think really at its core, this book is about two men who. want to change but need some impetus to do so. And so that entire introductory period of the book where we are learning who Cosmo and Micah are and you know, establishing the situation that they are separate situations that they are in, that they desperately want to change but are struggling to do so. It was really frustrating, especially like I didn't go into this in a particularly like romantic or sympathetic mindset, which made that very difficult.

Sara 6:04

Yeah, I would agree with that. And you need that introductory setup, I think for the, for the story to be worth it.

Lilly 6:12

Absolutely. It was totally worth pushing through. I think for a different reader, or even for us in a different mindset, it wouldn't have been pushing through. It would've been it's kind of the same, like when I'm in a mood to listen to Lana Del Rey, that same like. Aesthetic and tragic and you know that stuff.

Sara 6:34

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and again, I do think that a big part of my issue with the beginning of the book was just I was not in the right head space for it.

Lilly 6:44

Yeah. Well, I think you and I are both kind of just in our personal lives in a need to get shit done place. And that's exactly what Cosmo and Micah need, but it's not where they are. And so there was just, yeah, a fundamental just like mismatch there.

Sara 7:03

Yeah. And also I'm very much right now wanting cozy and comfort and. To forget how much things suck and that is not what you get in this book in the beginning.

Lilly 7:17

No, I, we are being a little flippant in calling them sad, sad boys because they are, but for, you know, genuine reasons, they aren't like catastrophizing their lives or something. Like they, they have genuine struggles.

Sara 7:32

Yeah, I mean they, they were actually incredibly sympathetic characters. And so yes, we are being a little bit flippant when we, when we call them sad, sad boys, but they, they are

Lilly 7:42

also it's not wrong.

Sara 7:43

Yeah, it's not wrong. They, they are both struggling a lot with the circumstances of their lives and not necessarily dealing with them with, with what's going on. In a great way at the start. They're doing their best, but they are struggling.

Lilly 8:01

They're definitely struggling and the story is about them, you know, going through that growth and change. So we get there. I don't think that's, it's a happy love story. I don't think it's a spoiler to say, yeah, they deal with their shit.

Sara 8:18

They, they deal with their shit and once they actually get together and start dealing with their shit I had a much easier time with the story.

Lilly 8:28

Oh yeah, same. And they do meet, well, they meet early on, but they're sort of, the beginning of their relationship happens early enough that it wasn't like I had to sit through 90% of this book for the last interesting 10% or something.

Sara 8:45

Yeah, no, ab absolutely not like it. the bit that I struggled with was, I don't know, maybe the first third, but a short enough period that. Pushing through, which, like you said earlier, maybe wouldn't have been considered pushing through if we were in different mindsets. But this is the mindset that I read it in. pushing through was absolutely worth it and I was glad to have to have read the book. I I did end up enjoying it.

Lilly 9:11

Now, this is a love story. There is something to be said for needing a romantic relationship in order to inspire change in yourself as maybe not like the most healthiest.

Sara 9:25

No.

Lilly 9:27

But I also think, you know, two vulnerable people identifying with each other and encouraging each other to not be the best versions of themselves. But just try is quite, you know, sentimental and sweet, and that is what you preferably get in a long-term romantic partner is someone who inspires you to be a better version of yourself. So it. I'm gonna maybe walk back that complaint a little bit.

Sara 9:57

I, I mean, I, I think that like, yes, I, I agree with you that in an ideal world, people wouldn't need the impetus of a romantic relationship to to make those changes in themselves. But in this specific book Cosmo and, and Micah. Are very supportive of each other. It's, it's definitely a healthy relationship between the two. And they are just, they are really sweet. And you cheer for them when they do push each other to, to grow.

Lilly 10:30

Yeah, I, I think supportive is the right word. There is a version of this kind of plot that would be toxic as hell, right? That's just not how it plays out here.

Sara 10:44

there, there's, there's no toxic codependency between the two of them where yes, I think, I think there is a, a version of that relationship that could go that way. But Hess is very good at writing the relationship and it, it stays at that supportive level the entire time.

Lilly 11:04

Absolutely the, the stress in this book,'cause this book is stressful.

Sara 11:09

It is very stressful.

Lilly 11:11

Is from everything around the two of them. And so whenever you get their interactions, not whenever there's still, you know, conflict and it's still, there's still a story happening, but for the most part, their relationship is kind of that warm, safe place for the reader as much as it is for the characters in each other.

Sara 11:37

Yeah, absolutely.

Lilly 11:39

So I think also still a me problem, but not only did I not have a ton of patience for sad, sad boys, I never have a lot of patience for sad, sad artists.

Sara 11:51

Mm.

Lilly 11:52

And this book was heavy on the art scene, like setting.

Sara 11:59

Yes. Both, both Micah and Cosmo are artists. They live in an art district. All of their friends are artists. They work at galleries. It's very much art, art, art, art.

Lilly 12:17

And, but that kind of, I'm gonna say very specific art scene because there's a lot of types of artists, right? it's the very like classic stereotypical starving artist. They, they work in galleries, they're trying to get exhibitions. They have commissions. So it's very much that, you know what I'm trying to say, that art

Sara 12:41

Yes, yes.

Lilly 12:43

as opposed to, because there's a lot of ways to make money with art these days that isn't that.

Sara 12:49

Yeah. And we do see a little bit, I mean, there they mention a neighbor does like fiber art or something. And so we see a little bit of other kinds of art, but that's very peripheral. And I wonder how much of that is because Hess himself is an artist. Hess has portraits of the characters in the beginning of the book that he did himself which is really cool. I mean, he's, he's a very talented artist.

Lilly 13:18

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with the gallery scene, but when you have two or any number, when there is a person complaining about, the art scene, and yet they are paying for all of their living expenses by being an artist. It's kind of like you, you, you've already done the almost impossible, like, anyone for whom art can be their main source of income. they don't have to have like a day job that's unrelated to the industry. I don't have a lot of sympathy for

Sara 13:53

That is pretty impressive if you are making a living off of your art.

Lilly 13:57

Yeah. And it's just, and it's a struggle living. Sure. But it's like, okay, you're already at a certain, that is, that is a certain amount of success that I'm not gonna be too sad for you about.

Sara 14:10

Yeah, I mean, I, I think I have more patience for that than you do, but I. It, it certainly is a thing in this book.

Lilly 14:17

And I, I will say that is probably a more of a me specific thing.

Sara 14:22

I

Lilly 14:22

but I think anyone who has tried to balance art with a day job would probably feel a little bit of annoyance at that.

Sara 14:32

Maybe.

Lilly 14:33

Yeah. But anyway that was just, adding on to the, the, my lack of patience. I thought it was pretty funny how there is absolutely zero geographic information in this book.

Sara 14:47

It's, yeah, it, I don't wanna call it nondescript because we get a very clear idea of. What their surroundings are like. But it's not specific to any city like, like this could be any artist district in any city, in any country, basically.

Lilly 15:09

Yeah, we know like what their neighborhood is like, what this art district is. And we know that cars are common, so I would say that cuts down on the country option. But I only picked that up when I was like, started sleuthing hard.'cause I was like, I, I, I realized at some point I, I had no idea where this was taking place. Right. Other than a city.

Sara 15:33

Yeah. Which honestly I, I think that's pretty neat.

Lilly 15:36

Oh yeah, because at that point I started like, you know, combing through for Hess to slip up and give me some kind of something, but it was actually quite impressive how Yeah. It's, it's not generic. It is, it's like the perfectly crafted every man of cities

Sara 15:56

Yeah. Yeah, it feels very intentional. Like it's, it's not just that Hess's left out details, it's that Hess has intentionally not given us any kind of determining description.

Lilly 16:12

Yes we know that both of the main characters, despite being broke and living in a city, drive cars everywhere. And we know that Micah's older brother lives 2000 miles away, but there's no mention of international travel, so it's probably the US.

Sara 16:29

I mean, I'm, I believe that Hess is based in the US so it is probably somewhere in the us,

Lilly 16:34

but that's like, that's the level of crazy person detail I was going into to figure this out because even saying 2000 miles away kind of implies a coast, but not necessarily.

Sara 16:48

Not necessarily. Yeah. And I, I do think that the lack of specific location does make it more accessible for anyone to read. I mean, obviously you can read books about different cities that you don't live in. That is very, very common, but I think it's neat to be able to read a book and think, yeah, this could be somewhere that, that I know.

Lilly 17:16

I think if there was more geographic detail, it would've gotten distracting.

Sara 17:21

Mm-hmm.

Lilly 17:22

I would've been thinking about like, oh, that's, that's such an East Coast thing. Or, oh man, they got that so wrong. And instead you could really focus on the characters.'cause this is truly a story about the people in it.

Sara 17:35

Yes.

Lilly 17:36

And so that, yeah, purposeful. Omission of location was pretty fun, and I tried to, I tried to poke a hole in it and I could not. I have a fun throwback for us. A words are weird segment.

Sara 17:52

Oh, what's your Words are weird.

Lilly 17:55

we haven't done one of these in so long, but Hess uses the word flirt as a noun and. It was incredibly distracting. I've never heard it used that. Not like as a person I, because I know that's a, people are noun, it, the text wasn't saying that person is a flirt.

Sara 18:14

Like the action was a flirt.

Lilly 18:17

yeah, like a, the line that someone said was a flirt and I've never heard that usage before. It was. Used the first time, I was like, okay, but then it's at least two or three more times and that was, I don't wanna say exactly distracting, but definitely threw me off. Is that a thing? Is that a regional use That I don't know.

Sara 18:41

According to Merriam Webster, the definition of flirt is, or one of the def definitions of flirt as a noun is an act or instance of flirting

Lilly 18:55

I'm sure, but who does that, as in who says

Sara 18:59

enough, enough people that it's in the dictionary.

Lilly 19:03

must be. must be a regional thing and just not from my region, because absolutely baffling.

Sara 19:10

it could be

Lilly 19:11

Have you heard that before?

Sara 19:13

not that I can think of, but it also didn't strike me the same way that it struck you.

Lilly 19:18

Huh?

Sara 19:19

So I don't know if that's just that I've heard it. Don't remember or what, but it's definitely not a regional thing where we are.

Lilly 19:30

Because even if I was talking about a line that someone said, I would've said that it was flirty or flirtatious, like I would never say a flirt. Anyway, it, that was just something that I got hung up on

Sara 19:46

I.

Lilly 19:46

and I'm very curious.

Sara 19:48

Yeah,

Lilly 19:49

that's actually what got me started trying to figure out the location of the story.

Sara 19:54

oh, interesting, interesting. Yeah, because I didn't, I didn't fixate on the location. I was like, oh, okay. This is just, you know, anywhere. That's neat.

Lilly 20:05

they're using language I don't use what is going on. Well, before we move on to the spoiler section. I think we should talk about, of course, who should read this book, but then also a little bit about what someone should expect going into this book, because there are definitely some heavy themes.

Sara 20:24

Yes. So I think you should read this book if you are looking for something that's more magical realism with very sweet romance at its core. But you should also be aware that it does deal with some really heavy content. And there are content warnings that, or there is a content warning at the beginning of the book, but there's a lot of talk of very severe physical assault. Some non-consensual touching PTSD and panic attacks and things like that. So it does go into some dark places or the, the characters are recovering from dark places, and there is discussion about that

Lilly 21:09

and there is some on screen or on page as well. The unwanted touching.

Sara 21:13

Oh, yes, yes.

Lilly 21:15

Yeah. It's not all just discussion of it having happened in the past.

Sara 21:18

Right. Yeah. The, the, the non-consensual touching does happen on the page.

Lilly 21:24

Yeah. So definitely. Yeah. Keep that in mind. It does like bring you back as a reader, right? You're not dwelling in it. For too, too long. At any one point there, there's usually like some rays of sunshine to break it up, I would say. But it definitely takes you there. And so like I said, it is, it is a stressful read no matter how cute the love story is.

Sara 21:50

Yeah. It's, it's not cozy. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by sost.

Lilly 21:59

That's our zine. Each issue has a different theme that celebrates genre and genre blending in a new way.

Sara 22:05

PD. F and EPUB versions can be purchased on our website and Patreon, supporters of all levels get free digital copies.

Lilly 22:13

You can find all of the issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for your support.

Sara 22:19

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers and. We talked a little bit about how there were some genre things in this book, that were spoilers. And specifically what I was thinking about was the fact that the ghosts are actually time travel, which was a very fun twist, and did make it a, a little more sci-fi.

Lilly 22:48

I agree completely. I mean, I would've said ghosts are also magical realism. Supernatural. That's not like.

Sara 22:56

Yeah,

Lilly 22:57

Literary fiction.

Sara 22:59

well, I mean, it, it would've been I think a genre book regardless. But the fact that the ghosts were time travel makes it more sci-fi. Than magical realism. It still has magical realism like vibes, but.

Lilly 23:15

Yeah, but it, it worked really well for me once we started getting into Really, yeah. Once Micah and Cosmo meet each other in person, not as ghosts and start trying to figure out what's going on, that's when I was like fully on board. I.

Sara 23:31

Yes, I agree. That was really where I turned a corner on the book. And it was really a, it was such a neat twist.

Lilly 23:39

It was really fun. I loved it. They talk about multiuniverse theory, parallel universes, and it's not the main point of the book. You know, no one's building a time machine. But there is enough of that time travel. If we are able to talk to ourselves in the past, what are we changing? How does that look? That kind of thing. There's enough discussion of that and ramifications of that in the story that it didn't feel like a gimmick just to get you to the love story.

Sara 24:17

Right. It, it did feel integrated into the. Into the plot of the book, even if it was not necessarily the focus.

Lilly 24:26

Yeah, it, it wasn't the focus for me, the reader. Right. Obviously I was more invested in the, in the romance and the love story, or at least I was.

Sara 24:36

I mean, I, I would've liked to see a little bit more discussion of the time travel. Why was, why was that apartment building complex, like experiencing it? I don't know.

Lilly 24:47

yeah,

Sara 24:47

never really answered.

Lilly 24:49

I think that's why I went with Magical Realism at first, because. These are just regular guys. Oh, actually, now that we're in the spoiler section, Cosmo does start going by they, them at the very, very end of the book,

Sara 25:03

Yes,

Lilly 25:04

which felt like a spoiler to say at the beginning of this episode. But now I think we probably ought to, or I should remember, to use the pronouns that they would prefer,

Sara 25:15

yes.

Lilly 25:16

but. Regular folk, Micah and Cosmo don't know anything about like physics and time travel and shit. They're making it up as they go along. And so as readers we don't get like a super technical explanation of what's going on. And I kind of liked it. We get enough of a conversation around it because obviously these characters are like, what the hell? But it doesn't. Get distracted by that too much. I, the balance I of time travel to romance worked very well for me.

Sara 25:49

It, it was a good balance just because of the kind of reader that I am. I was slightly less interested in the romance. Would've liked more of the time travel just because I was interested in the time travel. I don't think that the story would've been as strong if they, if that was more of a focus. So has made the right decisions.

Lilly 26:13

Yeah, I, this is, it's a love story. It's a love story with time travel. It's not a time travel story with a romance plot line.

Sara 26:19

yes.

Lilly 26:21

Ooh. But then it gets pretty thriller at the end, like almost horror, suspense, thriller.

Sara 26:28

Yeah. There, there are some definite vibes when Cosmo gets abducted by their. Boss stalker. I don't, I, I mean, uh, Royce is both of those things.

Lilly 26:39

Yeah,

Sara 26:40

and uh, yeah, it gets really tense.

Lilly 26:43

that kind of felt like it came out of nowhere. I guess there are dark themes in this book before that, but they're all very. I don't know. Pretty normal life. Dark, Not high action. Thriller dark.

Sara 27:02

I disagree with you a little bit because by the time that this happens, we know the details of Micah's assault,

Lilly 27:13

That's true.

Sara 27:14

which is pretty horrific.

Lilly 27:17

It's just that wasn't on page. So that like, while that is part of Micah's character and his backstory, that's not like happening in this story. So it doesn't feel the same.

Sara 27:28

We don't, we don't see it on the page, but I think we get enough of it that when Royce actually does abduct Cosmo, it didn't feel weird for the world and for the, for the story

Lilly 27:42

That's fair. And I mean the book opens with ghosts, so like death is definitely part of the conversation.

Sara 27:48

Yeah, and by this point too, it's very clear to the reader that Royce is absolutely no good. I think.

Lilly 27:57

by, by the point, he is abducting Cosmo. Yes.

Sara 28:00

Yeah. But, but like Royce gets, gets built up slowly over the course of the story as less and less of a, of a good friend and more and more of a total creep. So it didn't, again, it didn't feel weird for Royce to take that, that step.

Lilly 28:22

Fair enough. I mean, I, yeah. It didn't feel weird to me that Royce did it. I just, I wasn't, yeah. Maybe I was just vibing too hard with the love story at that point, and I was like, oh, we're back. Okay. No, I loved the pacing of Royce's, like slow character descent.

Sara 28:41

Oh, it was fantastic. And I mean, we, we get from the very beginning, people being suspicious of Royce,

Lilly 28:49

he's always a little shady,

Sara 28:51

yeah. Cosmo's mother immediately clocks him as, as kind of skeevy and Cosmo's best friend tries to warn Cosmo about him and, and things like that. But you think that he's just kind of a little bit of a douche.

Lilly 29:06

It is, is he a smarmy white knight or is he an actual predator? Because those are two pretty different

Sara 29:11

Yeah. Yeah. And so you start off thinking one thing and then it turns into another.

Lilly 29:18

Yes, I'm really glad that there's really no way to say this that makes me sound good. I'm really glad that there were consequences for our main characters. Dumb assery. And I want to acknowledge that you cannot say that about a real person in the real world. That's awful. But these are fictional characters

Sara 29:40

Yeah, it, that's not something you would ever say about a person in the, in the real world, but I do think that. if you see people make bad decisions in a novel and not have to struggle with that, it gets very frustrating for the reader.

Lilly 29:56

I'd like to clarify. I'm not talking about the assault or the kidnapping that Cosmo deals with. I'm talking about their best friend saying, screw you. This is awful. I cannot deal with you anymore. Like that is a, that is a natural, reasonable consequence for dumb assery.

Sara 30:15

Yes,

Lilly 30:15

That is what I am referring to.

Sara 30:18

yes

Lilly 30:19

speaking of, how do we think. We pronounce her name. Her name is DEJA,

Sara 30:26

with accents on the E and the A, as in the French spelling of Deja. So that's how I pronounced her name.

Lilly 30:34

but she's Hispanic,

Sara 30:35

But none of the names for the characters have anything to do with their nationality

Lilly 30:41

Jimena.

Sara 30:42

Well, okay. Jimena. Yes. But SIUs z that's not a, that's not an actual name

Lilly 30:49

I will admit, I assumed that was a stage name.

Sara 30:52

maybe, but that's the only name we get for Zed the entire time.

Lilly 30:56

Yeah,

Sara 30:57

Like, what's to say that Deja isn't also a name that she chose?

Lilly 31:01

that's fair. And I mean, it's obviously a reference to deja vu because they even talk about deja vu in the book. I definitely went back and forth calling her. I don't think deja is even a word in Spanish, but I was like that Jay is throwing me for a loop.

Sara 31:16

No, I, I saw the accents and I was like, okay, deja. It is,

Lilly 31:20

It is. It's clearly a dejavu reference. Yeah, I'm overcomplicating it,

Sara 31:24

I think so.

Lilly 31:25

but also I loved her so much.

Sara 31:27

But she was great. She was a much needed voice of sanity through the entire book.

Lilly 31:35

Incredible, incredible. Very cool lady. Also a really good friend also had good boundaries when Cosmo is kind of self-sabotaging in the way that they realize they need to stop doing, but hasn't been able to break themselves out of that cycle yet. The fact that she actually says like, I cannot be a part of this anymore. Amazing. So good for her, but she still shows up when. Cosmo needs her. She's just like, I can't be your friend, but I will make sure nothing terrible happens to you. Like, ugh, I loved her so much.

Sara 32:11

Yeah, she was great also. Great was Micah's older brother Everett.

Lilly 32:17

Yeah, he was actually the first, well, no, I love Deja from the beginning. But Everett was the first moment when I was like, when we were both at the beginning of this book and kind of like, I don't know, I don't know about this. And. Micah was refusing to go to therapy and Everett was like, you know, you should probably go to therapy. That's when I went, oh, thank goodness. Someone said it.

Sara 32:42

Yeah, and he was also just so supportive and so happy for Micah when Micah started, like taking the steps to, to improve their situation. But yeah, it was, it was really lovely to see.

Lilly 32:55

He is a good brother.

Sara 32:57

I love supportive family. Found family blood, family love. A supportive family moment.

Lilly 33:03

Yes, it also really helped having both Deja and Everett. You know, Micah and Cosmo aren't alone. The book gets dark. It's not that dark. Like they're never fully abandoned. They always have a lifeline they could call on, and I think that helps keep the tone of the book from getting a little bit too much.

Sara 33:26

Yeah, I mean, I, I think that the book goes in some pretty dark places. Even though they do have a support system that they can call on, they're not always in a. Place mentally to, to do it. And so they do do a lot of self-sabotage, the both of'em.

Lilly 33:44

Yeah, the book is dark. I just, I think I might have a higher tolerance for emotional dark themes than you.

Sara 33:51

and all possible, quite possible. And also right now I have very little tolerance just in general, so.

Lilly 33:59

uh, but yeah, both of those characters fulfilled the, like, need for me to reach into this novel and shake Micah and Cosmo. So I was glad that I had an avatar in their world.

Sara 34:11

Yes.

Lilly 34:12

Speaking of consequences, I had a note written down. I actually felt quite bad for Zed in the end. And then realized, yeah, no shit, Lily, he gets murdered.

Sara 34:24

And also he's not the one doing the stalking.

Lilly 34:28

Even if he was a.

Sara 34:32

Well, no, murder is not a reasonable response to that. A restraining order is but it turns out that he's not the one doing the stalking.

Lilly 34:41

And what I meant when I put that line in there is that if I was rereading this book and while he was still alive, he is just another sad boy.

Sara 34:51

Yeah.

Lilly 34:52

I mean, pestering cosmo, not taking no for an answer, but in a sad boy way, not in a predator way, which is what everyone assumed because everyone assumed Zed was the one. Stalking and harassing and leaving creepy notes and scaring away Cosmos partners.

Sara 35:09

Yeah. Like Zed is a little bit of a jerk. Who needs to do some growing up? Not a great boyfriend, but also just kind of in a generic way. I mean, I don't mean generic in that he felt like a bland character or anything,

Lilly 35:25

He is your run of the mail, bad boyfriend and, everyone assumes the worst of him. And I was like, Aw, poor guy. Once you realize that he's not the one who's been scaring away partners, and that's what I meant. And then I was like, oh, yeah, also he gets killed.

Sara 35:41

Yeah.

Lilly 35:43

That obviously you feel bad for that, but that's a step beyond

Sara 35:48

yes.

Lilly 35:49

at least. Micah and Cosmo get a chance to grow. Zed does not. Zed does not make it out of this book.

Sara 35:55

No poor Zed. But it, it was really rewarding to see Micah and Cosmo grow.

Lilly 36:02

It really was, and they're very cute together.

Sara 36:05

They are very cute together. They're, they're cloyingly cute together.

Lilly 36:09

Yeah. were older than I expected them to be, which I think also made it a little hard for me to read this book. Well, when I, when I was trying to get into it at the beginning and needing more sympathy for the characters than I had,

Sara 36:23

They were old enough that I did kind of want to go to both of them and, and say, you guys should have your lives together a little bit more than this by now.

Lilly 36:34

I think I was harder on Cosmo than I was on Micah.

Sara 36:37

Well, Micah, who was older, but Micah also went through an incredibly, incredibly traumatizing event.

Lilly 36:45

exactly. It's not something that he could have dealt with before now

Sara 36:49

Yeah.

Lilly 36:50

because it hadn't happened to him already. Whereas Cosmos struggles are, feel more internal,

Sara 36:57

Yeah.

Lilly 36:57

with, with self-worth and I identity, and it's, it feels like something maybe he could have gone through. Earlier, it feels like something maybe that they could have gone through in their earlier twenties, but I mean, you, you can't put a timeline on things. It just made me a little less sympathetic I think.

Sara 37:18

Yeah, that's, that's fair. On the other hand. I did love that they were both a little older because I think it's, there's value in seeing older people not have their shit together and do growing too. Like you can, you can grow at any age.

Lilly 37:36

Yeah, you don't have to get, do all of your growth in your early twenties and then ev after that. You're the same person forever. Thank God

Sara 37:44

Yeah. So I agree with you that I kind of. Got frustrated a little bit because of their age, but at the same time I was like, great, this is, this is good to see in a, in a story still.

Lilly 37:59

I think it, that was purely a combination of I was a little frustrated and I had less like less slack to cut,

Sara 38:09

Yeah.

Lilly 38:10

but.

Sara 38:11

Very fair. I.

Lilly 38:12

You are right. I mean, growth shouldn't be limited to your youth. In fact, it's probably a good thing for everyone to, to be learning and changing their whole lives,

Sara 38:24

Yeah, and normal, I mean, we should have more stories about people in their late twenties and and late thirties.

Lilly 38:32

but also maybe. I, oh actually, this is really what it is. I have zero patience for people who get back together after they break up. Fictional real, doesn't matter. That's one of my greatest pet peeves. Just period. And having that be cosmos, like manifestation of their self worth issues. It was just not a good, not, not a good match. It made it hard for me to get into the story I got there, for sure.

Sara 39:03

That's, that's very fair. I definitely side eyed Cosmo hard for those decisions, but it. It was made a little bit easier because that's explicitly called out. By everyone as, as cosmos self-sabotaging and Cosmo does realize it and, and gets better at about it.

Lilly 39:25

And that's the kind of dumb assery that if they were 21, I'd be like, okay, that's really stupid, but they're 21. Whatcha gonna do?

Sara 39:35

It's a little harder to tolerate in a 28-year-old or 29-year-old, or however old they were.

Lilly 39:40

Although that's also the a not the age gap, the time skip thing, because I think they were only like 24

Sara 39:46

Oh yeah. Yeah, actually that's very true because it's a three year difference.

Lilly 39:52

Yeah. So that is also more reasonable. I, and yeah, people can make bad decisions at any time. I'm just gonna be more sympathetic if you make a bad decision when you're younger.

Sara 40:02

yeah.

Lilly 40:03

A series of repeated bad decisions, not just one bad decision. And the whole point is that they identify this and change and grow. So, you know, I'm beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to talk about why I, it was establishing where Cosmo was at before we start seeing that change was definitely like not the, a great click for me as a reader.

Sara 40:29

Yeah. No, I, I agree. I agree completely.

Lilly 40:32

Micah, like you said, having more, I mean, still internal in that he was dealing with his trauma response, but it wa it was dealing with an external act of violence and so I, it was definitely much easier for me to go, well, shit, you can't, you can't choose. No one chooses that. It's not a series of bad decisions. And so, yeah, and that's I think the core of the, my, the different, my different reactions to the two characters.

Sara 41:02

Yeah, I That makes sense.

Lilly 41:04

But then in the end, you know, they're not perfect, but they've made huge strides and then they're trying to help themselves in other universes too, which was really cute.

Sara 41:15

It. That was very cute.

Lilly 41:17

We see a little bit of a parallel universe where nothing bad ever happens to either of them. Not exactly, but

Sara 41:24

But they're, they're able to avoid the worst of the things,

Lilly 41:28

yeah. And that was really sweet and lovely.

Sara 41:33

although I have to say that I'm glad it was only a parallel universe and not like they were able to go back in time and stop it from happening to them entirely, because that would've felt like invalidating the entire story.

Lilly 41:46

Well, and it's kept from feeling too saccharine because we also know there's another universe where Cosmo dies.

Sara 41:52

Yes,

Lilly 41:53

So it's almost like they, the, the Mica and Cosmo that we are following by avoiding that outcome, have earned it for the other couple in a sense,

Sara 42:06

yes.

Lilly 42:07

at least in a literary sense. And so getting just a brief little snippet of how they were able to help themselves and feeling care for themselves is kind of the whole thing that they need to figure out.

Sara 42:23

Absolutely.

Lilly 42:24

And so being able to externalize that on an all a parallel universe version of yourself, there's like, there's something really beautiful there and learning. Learning how to take care of yourself by taking care of your other self

Sara 42:39

It. It was sweet. Yes, it was

Lilly 42:41

The, I was gonna say, the book doesn't leave you feeling bad except then you remember there is the universe where everything has gone to shit.

Sara 42:49

Where Cosmo actually dies. Yeah. It's not really a feel good story in some respects.

Lilly 42:57

Even the sweetest version of the book, like. Still has that bittersweet gut punch in there.

Sara 43:05

Yeah. And the book goes dark places.

Lilly 43:08

It does, and even when it's being like the most lovey-dovey and cozy, it's still with that undercurrent of, in order to get here, some version of them had to go through hell.

Sara 43:20

Yeah. You, you can't forget that there are really bad things that have happened.

Lilly 43:25

Yeah, so definitely a, a book to go into with your eyes open. But I love Mia Dark Love story and the love story part wasn't even that dark.

Sara 43:38

Yeah, I was gonna say, I wouldn't call this a dark love story because I think that has different connotations, but.

Lilly 43:42

fair enough. I love dark stories. I do love dark love stories. And so this ended up hitting a balance between those two things. Because, yeah, it's not, the love story is not toxic.

Sara 43:54

Yeah, it is a dark story and there is a love story, but it's not a dark love story.

Lilly 44:01

Right. And I, for me, for someone who does like those kinds of dark themes when she's reading a love story, the balance was quite nice

Sara 44:11

Yeah. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 44:19

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara 44:30

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 44:37

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 44:43

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.