Hazelhearth Hires Heroes by D.H. Willison

Your hosts read Hazelhearth Hires Heroes by D.H. Willison, and immediately realized their unfamiliarity with both the Isekai (portal fantasy) and LitRPG genres. They also talked about high-stakes danger in fantasy adventures and the evolving relationships between both main and secondary characters.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah, and today we'll be talking about Hazel Hearth Hires heroes by DH Willison.

Lilly 0:16

but first, our quick five minute introduction, starting with something good that happened recently.

Sara 0:22

I got an interview. I'm very pleased.

Lilly 0:25

Congratulations.

Sara 0:27

Thank you. This company seems to be moving at lightning speed.

Lilly 0:32

Yeah, that's really fast.

Sara 0:34

Yeah. I don't know if that means that the rest of the hiring process is gonna be fast. Or even if I'll get past the first interview. But I, I think it's a positive indicator.

Lilly 0:46

And it at least gives you like some optimism. It keeps the job hunt from feeling like a grind, right? You're not just shouting into the void.

Sara 0:54

Yeah. I mean, regardless of whether or not I get this position which I'm still kind of on the fence about whether or not I even want it, but, just getting the interview is nice because it means that, hey, I, I do have the qualifications for these positions. it kind of counteracts that imposter syndrome, so.

Lilly 1:14

Yeah, that's good. My good thing is that I did not do any gardening the last couple of very sunny weekends because it snowed yesterday, which was fine. Because I had nothing to do and there was no, well, one of our fruit trees bloomed, so that's probably not gonna go anywhere.

Sara 1:34

Yeah, probably not.

Lilly 1:36

But I was just imagining like sad little baby tomato plants buried in the snow.

Sara 1:43

Yep.

Lilly 1:44

March was so warm and sunny. Like even the, the whole winter's been really mild, so I think it lulled everyone into a false sense of security.

Sara 1:52

The snow looked lovely though.

Lilly 1:54

It was beautiful. Yeah, like it was picturesque.'cause it wasn't a storm, it was just like lovely, fluffy snowflakes, gently falling all fucking day. No baby tomato plants were harmed, at least in my yard. I'm sure someone was like, oh no. What are you drinking today?

Sara 2:14

I am drinking tea, which is tragically not made with a magical healing spring water.

Lilly 2:25

Would be nice.

Sara 2:25

It's just made with regular water, but it is still, still good.

Lilly 2:29

I am drinking coffee because it's early enough in the day that that's still reasonable. I have not finished my first cup yet and I was like, should I get a new drink? Nah, this is, this is the real answer of what I'm actually drinking. have you read anything good lately?

Sara 2:44

I read Allison Green's book about job searching.

Lilly 2:49

Is it good?

Sara 2:50

It's good. Yeah. It, it feels a little bit dated at this point. I mean, I, I think she wrote it maybe. 10 or 12 years ago. Yeah. So it, it does feel like maybe some of the advice is a little outdated, but overall, I, I thought it was good. Not necessarily anything new if you have been reading her blog for as long as I have, but still good to have it all in one place.

Lilly 3:17

It kind of gets you in the right mindset.

Sara 3:20

That's mostly why I got it. I was like, I just, you know, I wanna give myself as many advantages as I can.

Lilly 3:27

I ordered. Some baby books but have not actually started reading them yet. So my answer is no. Just podcast reading,

Sara 3:34

Books about babies or books for babies.

Lilly 3:38

About babies. The Mayo Clinic has a book that's like developmental milestones for the first three years or something like that.

Sara 3:46

Mm,

Lilly 3:48

and just like basics. We're also taking like classes, but I like books.

Sara 3:55

more preparation is better than less.

Lilly 3:57

Yeah. And it's one of those things where it's like there's no such thing as preparation because you have no clue what your actual child is going to be like. But, I like having at least some, some resources. I just googling things. Searching for information on the internet is such a crapshoot. It always has been, but I feel like I'm, I have a harder time of. Analyzing source quality these days, like

Sara 4:23

There's a, there's a lot of AI slop. On there now. So I, I do think that it's harder to sift through and find the good stuff.

Lilly 4:33

it certainly takes more time to do so

Sara 4:35

Yeah,

Lilly 4:36

It's not as quick, so I just, and just having like a. An authority, a printed authority reviewed by a, a medical institution is nice just to have like as backup.

Sara 4:47

absolutely.

Lilly 4:48

Yeah. Anyway, we are here to talk about Hazel Hearth hires heroes. I did not, did I? Do I think the cover. prepares you for this book. The cover felt sillier than the book is, although the book is also like lighthearted, so maybe I'm, I'm back on board. I don't know.

Sara 5:09

I, I think it's an accurate representation of the kind of story you're likely to find.

Lilly 5:15

Yeah, I guess the, the art style is a little bit cartoony, which is not typical like for a fantasy novel.

Sara 5:24

I did think that it was going to be more of a young adult novel based on the artwork than it ends up being. I mean, I would call this firmly a, a novel for adults. Not to say that, that people of differing ages can't enjoy it, but,

Lilly 5:39

I think I would've loved it in high school. I just don't think that it's like written for high

Sara 5:44

yes, that's, that's what I'm saying.

Lilly 5:46

Yeah. No, I, yeah. And, and then when you start reading it, there are a couple of things that jump out at. There are, there are a few Japanese isms, if you will, in the world building.

Sara 6:00

Yeah, once, once you get the secondary world. So that actually kind of leads to my question. Is this lit? RPG, does it qualify as isaka? Those are not mutually, exclusive genres, but they're not genres that I've read at all.

Lilly 6:17

So Isaka is a portal fantasy, right?

Sara 6:21

yes, I think so. Which

Lilly 6:22

that is the extent of my knowledge. They literally go through a portal. So how could it not be?

Sara 6:28

Yeah.

Lilly 6:29

Although our two main characters that do accidentally go through a portal into this fantasy world are from the early 19 hundreds, which felt very new to me, but I also don't read a lot of isaka, so maybe that's normal, but I, I associate that trope with modern, like contemporary humans.

Sara 6:51

Yeah, I, I just, I don't know. It's, it's not a thing that I have a lot of experience with.

Lilly 6:56

Yeah. Me neither. I am technically our resident lit RPG expert because I have read one entire issue of dungeon crawler Carl, or I guess book volume, whatever. Which means I know more about it than you do,

Sara 7:12

It's true.

Lilly 7:13

but that's still the extent of my experience. I think it's probably like a light lit RPG because they, there's talk about levels and classes, so there's that verbiage that you get from roleplaying games that gets brought in into this, right. But it felt so much less obtrusive than it does in dungeon crawler. Carl.

Sara 7:37

It, it felt very much like, not a mechanic of the world, but a mechanic of the guilds.

Lilly 7:45

Yeah, it's, so there, there are levels, but that's really just like mercenary rankings.

Sara 7:51

Yeah, it, it felt like you know, you're, an an entry level position, and then you get a promotion to, to rank one and then rank two, et cetera, et cetera.

Lilly 8:02

Yeah, except by you saying level one instead of rank one. It's just kind of a wink, wink, nudge, nudge for the reader. But it doesn't, I don't know. I struggled with all of the talk about experience points and then, you know, you saw their head points over their head in Dungeon, Carl or Carl, so I think. Lit. RPG is not really the genre for me.

Sara 8:24

Mm-hmm.

Lilly 8:25

So again, when I, when I first started reading this, I was like, okay, here we go. But it was so not subtle. It wasn't subtle. It very much just came out and said it, but it didn't interrupt the story at all.

Sara 8:42

I mean, it, it really just felt like a mechanism of their society

Lilly 8:46

Yeah.

Sara 8:46

and, and not something that was inherent to the world itself.

Lilly 8:51

So I, yeah,

Sara 8:52

yeah, I, I think that makes it less obtrusive.

Lilly 8:55

absolutely. and as I sort of acclimated to that, and, and there were a few other, like, there's a lot of d and d references. one of the main characters, Lee, is. C creating his own board game and is taking ideas from this fantasy world. And so there are, there are like, hints and pieces and it felt more like I was being let in on a joke and less like this book was being ruled by game mechanics.

Sara 9:24

Yes, I, I agree completely. But that is also why I wonder, does it count as lit? RPG?

Lilly 9:30

Yeah. That. I don't know. I mean, I, I think light lit RPG is what I would end on, but again, I'm also not super familiar with the genre, so

Sara 9:42

It is at the very least, lit, RPG adjacent.

Lilly 9:46

Yeah.

Sara 9:47

At a, at a bare minimum.

Lilly 9:48

And I think going in expecting that will help because otherwise I like. it could be a little surprising when you first run into that kind of a really mechanical specific language in a survival setting.

Sara 10:03

I was not expecting it. And I don't think that that's something that is evident from like the back matter on the book. So it, it was a little surprising, but because of how subtle it is or not, not subtle, but Inobtrusive it was very easy to adjust to.

Lilly 10:20

And so all of that, you know, the, the references to inventing 12 sided dice and one of the characters is a cat boy, and they call him a neco. Like these are, these are things that on the surface level, they're pretty, that's pretty silly, right?

Sara 10:39

There's a lot that's very silly about this book.

Lilly 10:42

But it never feels slapstick, I would say.

Sara 10:46

Yes, I agree with that. And it, it feels silly in a way that's inviting the reader to laugh along with the joke.

Lilly 10:53

Yeah. And it, it ends up just creating a tone that makes the experience very lighthearted instead of, this is a hysterical comedy novel. And there were definitely times that I chuckled while I was reading it, but it, it still felt like a story first and a like, I don't even wanna say a joke second. Like it wasn't making fun of itself.

Sara 11:17

No, I mean, it's, it's not a comedy or anything.

Lilly 11:20

Yeah. But like, not as, ooh, do I wanna say not a stressful reading experience. There were pretty high stakes. They felt very serious.

Sara 11:31

it's not a book without stakes. And we will get into that a little bit more in the spoiler section. So it's not something like, I'm not gonna call it cozy, it's, it's not cozy at all. And you do worry for the characters and, stress about the situations in which they find themselves at, at times. But the, the overall tone I think was, was fairly lighthearted. Like 95% of the time.

Lilly 11:58

Yeah, it was serious in the sense that, our two main characters are in this kind of very small backwater town, in this fantasy world because they get accidentally pulled through a portal and. The world is dangerous enough that it is genuinely a struggle to survive, and we do see the consequences of that, but I mostly had a really good time. Even when it was stressful, I still had a good time, but you know what I mean? I, I mostly, it was mostly a lighthearted reading experience. It just felt realistic in, in that sense of the danger involved.

Sara 12:33

Yeah, I mean I really enjoyed reading this book. the bits that were I don't wanna call'em stressful, but the bits where the stakes were higher, it was still the kind of book where. You're not so much stressed, you just really wanna know what happens next.

Lilly 12:51

I was very invested. There, well, we can't talk about it yet, but during the like, final big conflict, I was very concerned and like you said, I was not upset. I was just. I wanted the good guys to win. That sounds silly, and not just our main characters. Right. You really grow to care about Hazel Hearth

Sara 13:14

Yeah,

Lilly 13:15

and everyone in it.

Sara 13:16

it's the kind of book where you don't wanna put it down because you wanna see what happens next and how they get out of, you know, whatever situation they're in.

Lilly 13:25

Yeah, I was very engaged. The book was very fast. Was it short or did I just plow through it? Both maybe.

Sara 13:34

Maybe a little bit of both. I, I don't actually know what the word count is. Or the page number. It's not like a, a difficult read. It's a, a fun read and that makes it go faster.

Lilly 13:46

Like I was reaching for it instead of social media. You know, like when I, when I wanted to give my brain a break, I wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna mindlessly scroll for a few minutes. Oh shit, I should do something productive. It was, no, I want, I want to be in this world instead of the one I'm currently standing in.

Sara 14:04

Aw. Yeah. This book was a standalone or, or is a standalone. Although I would definitely read more of Sam Lee's adventures in in Hazel Hearth'cause I really enjoyed them. But there are other books set in the same secondary world of Arvia, which I wanna go check out now.

Lilly 14:22

I definitely want to read more. Is this not the first book?

Sara 14:28

It's, I don't think it's the first book that Willison published in the, in the world.

Lilly 14:32

Okay. It definitely stands alone. It felt like a great introduction to the world.

Sara 14:35

it, it does feel like a good introduction to the world. I know there that there's a book about a human becoming Friends with a Harpy which might be the first RVA book maybe.

Lilly 14:47

Okay.

Sara 14:48

There, there are a number of other RVIA books it looks like.

Lilly 14:51

I am actually supremely disappointed that we don't get more of Sam and Lee.

Sara 14:56

I know me too, like this, this book definitely feels like a standalone. Like I, I feel like the, the conclusion there is a conclusion to the, the story in this book, but I wanna read more. Sam and Lee, I, I really enjoyed their, experiences and how they interacted with the world and who they interacted with. I just, I want more.

Lilly 15:16

Yeah, no, same completely. A lot of times when I hit the three quarter point of a book and I go, oh, this is a series, isn't it? But in this case, I was like. Oh hell yeah. There's definitely more of this. I can tell it was a very different reaction than I normally have.

Sara 15:34

Yes,

Lilly 15:35

Well, who should read this book? I mean, if you do like tabletop RPGs, or I guess any RP g familiar with Dungeons and Dragons, you'll get the little jokes in there for you. Do you think you need to be familiar with RPGs? I don't think so.

Sara 15:53

I don't think you need to be familiar with RPGs. It probably helps.

Lilly 15:56

You'll get more of the jokes for sure.

Sara 15:58

yeah. You'll, you'll get more of the jokes and you'll have a, a. A more innate understanding of how the, you know, their leveling system works. But you don't need any of that background knowledge. And I think if you enjoy mostly lighthearted fantasy novels you'll probably enjoy this one.

Lilly 16:19

Yeah, if you just want a fantasy adventure this is great, do it.

Sara 16:23

Yeah. Where, where you come out of it feeling good.

Lilly 16:26

Yeah, definitely.

Sara 16:27

And like, yes. You know, they're, they're in these situations. It is vaguely d and d esque. There is fighting, but they also try to solve things through you know, conversation and, and other methods. So that was nice too.

Lilly 16:43

I really appreciated that, which I think is something we're gonna talk about more in the spoiler section, but. But it's often so ridiculous to me when people are in a like. Mortal peril and they choose to put themself in more danger just to go do the big heroic thing.

Sara 17:01

Yeah, I agree completely.

Lilly 17:03

And so we'll talk a little bit more about. How they aren't just charging into a fight every opportunity they have, but know that like a huge part of it is like is not getting into a fight because why would you, that's dangerous. There is plenty of fighting if you want those adventures. They just feel necessary in a way. That they don't always in an adventure story.

Sara 17:27

Yes, a hundred percent agreed./ This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by sost.

Lilly 17:36

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Sara 17:43

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Lilly 17:50

You can find all of the issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for your support.

Sara 17:56

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Before we talk about anything else I do wanna talk about Salmon Lee and how much I really liked. The way that their relationship develops, because at the beginning they're, I'd say they're, more acquaintances than, than anything else, right? Like,

Lilly 18:20

Their neighbors and not even real neighbors, like their offices are next to each

Sara 18:24

yeah. Like, they know each other, they're not close. But they really become friends over the course of, of this book, and it was so lovely to see and felt so believable. Then of course there's also the reveal partway through the novel that Sam is actually a woman and they stayed just friends.

Lilly 18:46

Okay, but hear me out though. What if they fall in love?

Sara 18:50

I mean, okay. I would be here for a Sam Lee lady, ISIL noir poly trio.

Lilly 18:58

I mean, yeah, I guess Sam had great chemistry with both of them. Huh.

Sara 19:01

Yeah.

Lilly 19:02

But I, okay. And it wasn't even the reveal that Sam was a woman. I started highlighting their, their banter getting flirty from very early on. At one point, Sam says, you show like I showed you mine, so show me yours. Like, that's flirty. I, in all seriousness, you are right. Their friendship is really wonderful. Their banter is fantastic, and it is not necessarily romantic in any way, and I also appreciate that. Willison made a point of having these two people grow close without like falling in love.

Sara 19:41

Yeah. Their relationship is the kind where I would totally read fan fiction of them getting together, but I don't want it to happen in the actual book.

Lilly 19:50

Yeah, I think that's probably where I'm at too. I'm just really excited for that fan fiction.

Sara 19:56

I, I will say though, that, the reveal that Sam. A woman was punctuated by like a note from the editor breaking the fourth wall, and that didn't really work for me because that was the only time we saw that kind of fourth wall breakage.

Lilly 20:13

Yeah, I struggled with that as well. It's just one page of a conversation, I assume, fake conversation between Willison and his editor saying. Well then we have to go back and change all of her pronouns in the first half. Okay. Yeah. I definitely won't forget to do that. Which was cheeky and funny, but it really didn't fit. I think that that's the thing, right? So much of this book is almost slapstick cheeky, but the, the tone of the novel itself doesn't go that far, which I liked. And so that kind of thing felt out of place.'cause I was like, no, that's not. That's not what this book is.

Sara 20:53

I, I think we needed more, like even just a couple of other small episodes of that in the story in order for it to fit better

Lilly 21:04

Yeah, I mean, I would've been fine with it not happening at all. But I also, I also get wanting to acknowledge the pronoun change, and so like I, I see why it's there.

Sara 21:17

Yeah.

Lilly 21:18

And not wanting to just like suddenly start calling Sam a she in the third person narration. But that's the kind of shenanigans I really enjoy. So I don't think I needed that editor's note, but I understand other readers wanting some acknowledgement of it.

Sara 21:34

Yeah, I, I agree. I didn't need it. I would've been. Perfectly fine without that editor's note

Lilly 21:40

Happier without it. I think I will go so far as to say,

Sara 21:43

I, I would, I would probably have been happier without it, but because it was there, I did want a little more similar like interludes

Lilly 21:52

yeah, just one or two. It didn't need to be a ton, but to make it stand out less.

Sara 21:56

Yes, yes. To, to make it, just to make it feel more in keeping with the rest of the story.

Lilly 22:01

Yeah. So you mentioned, oh, I made a joke in our notes and it is going to trip me up every time I read Lady ISIS's name. I definitely said isil door in my head. And that's just me a problem I had. I am probably almost certainly going to accidentally call her that. But so we, we talked about the evolving relationship, the growing friendship between Sam and Lee, which also sounds like we're saying salmon Lee if we talk too fast. So that's fun. It, there's not one fish entity called Salmon Lee.

Sara 22:42

I look forward to the transcript.

Lilly 22:44

Oh yeah, it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a bloodbath. So Lady Issa Noir also starts off almost an antagonist.

Sara 22:52

Pretty. She is, she is pretty much

Lilly 22:55

She's a shitty bureaucrat.

Sara 22:56

Yeah. And she's not a villain, but she's definitely not working with them and in some cases almost actively obstructing them.

Lilly 23:07

But not because she's secretly trying to destroy the town

Sara 23:10

No. No, because because she's a shitty bureaucrat.

Lilly 23:13

She has different goals. I mean, she would prefer for the town to survive Sure. But we see her grow over the course of the book and like really respect. Lee and Sam and the other, the other people and the town itself. And I thought that growth was really well done. She still felt like the same huge bitch, but a huge bitch that respected them. And I thought maintaining her kind of a, a aloofness and privilege while still showing. Her changing opinion for the other characters around her was just really well done.

Sara 23:56

Yeah, I agree entirely. She was clearly the same person, you know, from beginning to end, but she had grown in the way that she respected the skills of the entire crew and respected the people of Hazel Hearth. And it It felt really satisfying to see that character growth.

Lilly 24:16

And so much more satisfying than, oh, wow. She became a nice person,

Sara 24:22

Yeah.

Lilly 24:23

which I mean is nice too, but that's, I'm going to keep using the word realistic for this bonkers fantasy world, but. Even when people do, you know, grow, they don't get a personality transplant.

Sara 24:41

Yeah, I agree.

Lilly 24:42

She barks as soon as you start talking.

Sara 24:45

Yeah. I, I agree. It, it felt very natural. Like it's, it was a natural evolution. Right. But it.

Lilly 24:52

And, and she lightens up. She jokes around with Sam and, really like puts her life on the line to help save the town, which she probably would have earlier, but more from an obligation standpoint and less from an actually caring about them.

Sara 25:09

It felt like she put more, she had more writing on it now because she had actually developed those relationships.

Lilly 25:16

She actually cares about the people who live there. Like I did, I, I mean, I think different situation of me as a reader, learning about the town and her as a snooty bureaucrat who is first just resentful that she gets placed in this pretty shitty position.

Sara 25:34

yeah. She's not happy that she's in this backwater town instead of being sent back to. Uh, university, yeah. To, to keep studying, to gain a level.

Lilly 25:43

So the big final confrontation is defending the town from Ogre Ronan. They use the phrase Ronan at least

Sara 25:52

They, so they use it twice. I looked it up. I did a search. They use it twice. But only in the first 10 pages of the book. Afterwards, they're always just called Ogers or like, God, why is my mind blanking? On the word for someone who leaves the army? Yes.

Lilly 26:12

Yeah.

Sara 26:12

Yes.

Lilly 26:13

So there are some ogres who have deserted the main empire's army and they're just kind of roaming around, murdering and pillaging and stumble upon Hazel Hearth and they have to defend themselves. And I mean, by that point, that final confrontation, I was so like all in

Sara 26:32

Absolutely. Yeah.

Lilly 26:34

and mirroring Lady Seal doors. Journey there a little bit. I know, but it wasn't just that like, oh, the main characters are here and I want the good guys to win. Like you care about the people in this town, and not that there's a giant cast of characters, but you meet enough of them that the town feels full and populated without listing out every single farmer that lives there.

Sara 27:00

Yeah, you do. You do meet people who live there. And it does feel like, it doesn't feel like a set piece.

Lilly 27:07

Yeah, you meet like, oh, here are the kids that live on one farm. And then you're able to like fill in the blanks of all the rest of the farms.

Sara 27:16

Yeah, you can extrapolate.

Lilly 27:18

Yeah. And people do die. Not the main characters. Which does give it some like element of plot armor, right? However, it's about the halfway point where Lee is supposed to be protecting a group of kids on a, a journey and one of the kids gets eaten. And I think that was the first moment where I was like, oh shit. Okay.

Sara 27:42

Yeah, Willison is not afraid to kill people off. And that's why we've been saying that it's not all lighthearted. Like the stakes are there and they feel very real. And you do worry for the safety of the characters because shit happens.

Lilly 27:59

Yeah. And so by the time we get to that final confrontation, you know that it's not going to be a yay. We defeated the yogurts and everyone lived, like people do die. Not very many. And so it's considered a success and they celebrate. But while you're reading that fight, like you knew the good guys were gonna win, I wasn't like, oh no, are the oors gonna burn down this town and eat everyone inside of it? That that wasn't on my radar.

Sara 28:31

No, but I was definitely worried that there might be

Lilly 28:35

How many casualties would there

Sara 28:36

yeah, exactly that, that there would be casualties before they won. I was never, it was never in question for me that they. Weren't going to win. Like I knew they were gonna win. It was just, what's the damage going to be like Because there was going to be damage. You knew there was going to be damage.

Lilly 28:53

and, and so just having that line walked where I was so invested and I. Like you said, knew that there would be consequences. Just didn't know how big they would be. I think was like a really great way of making it feel serious and real without making it stressful.

Sara 29:14

Yeah. And that's a really fine line to walk too, like that. That's a, it's hard to get that balance right and I think Willison does that really well.

Lilly 29:23

So, well in the earlier combats too, um. where it's much more, much lower stakes, right? It's just our, our main characters learning how to be adventurers, traveling around, accidentally bumping into animals, running away from a herd of sheep. Although they were fantasy sheep, I don't remember what they were called. My brain is saying encrypted, and I know that's wrong.

Sara 29:46

Fantasy sheep works just fine.

Lilly 29:49

So they, they are in real danger and that's one of the things, right? They, they run from the herd of fantasy sheep, not because the sheep are dangerous, but because they are prey animals and they don't wanna run into anything hunting the sheep, which is so smart.

Sara 30:06

Yeah, and we were talking about this a little bit earlier in the nons spoiler section, but it. It was really nice to see characters acknowledge that they live in a dangerous world and that they are not, you know, at the top of the food chain, and that they do have to be careful and they can't solve everything just by taking a sword and, and chopping at things.

Lilly 30:27

Yeah. And even then, why would you want to, like, even if you are the best fighter in the world, why would you be getting into fights just for the hell of it with they, they talk about this too, like these are just. Animals roaming the wild. Like, why would we go out of our way to kill one tiger? There's more tigers that doesn't accomplish anything except killing this poor animal. It just felt so measured and logical in a way that I don't typically expect from my fantasy adventures.

Sara 30:59

It was very reasonable.

Lilly 31:01

Yeah.

Sara 31:02

Yeah, that's not something I tend to expect from this kind of novel.

Lilly 31:07

And so they, they always try to avoid a fight, which I really liked. They weren't able to avoid all of them, so you, you are still getting fight scenes and fun, you know, fantasy, adventure, but it, it always feels so justified, which made me more invested because I actually. Cared instead of just rolling my eyes at, you know, okay. Conan the barbarians running in again.

Sara 31:32

Well, and it also felt like they were really playing to the strength of each character because not everyone is good at fighting. so that was also a nice, acknowledgement for me.

Lilly 31:44

I really loved, I, I think the best example of this is when Lee and Sam are in the caves, which is all I'm gonna say there, read the book. They're in some caves and they encounter a like torso up human centipede. Creature thing that's carrying a big harpoon looking do hickey and they realize that it's not a weapon. It's like a gathering tool. they start like getting ready to defend themselves and attack this thing, but realize that it's not attacking them. And so they are actually able to like negotiate not through speaking the same language, but. Avoid conflict and the creature helps them get out. And I just thought that moment was so, Hmm, I'm gonna say heartwarming and I mean it, but it was more than that. It, it also like felt very good for the world building.

Sara 32:45

I feel, yeah, I feel like it's emblematic of the world building that we get in this book.

Lilly 32:50

Yeah. Why would you, if you meet a stranger that doesn't speak your language, why would you just start swinging your sword at them?

Sara 32:56

yeah. Yeah.

Lilly 32:58

So I really appreciated that. I loved the centipede creature and that whole sequence. And there are, there are varying levels of that throughout the book, right? They, the ogers do send a,

Sara 33:11

I mean, the ogre send a list of their demands to Hazel Hearth.

Lilly 33:15

that's what I was trying to say. I, I had the like, I was trying to come up with the word for when you, like someone gets kidnapped, ransom. But that was also the wrong word. So why did I take so long to think of it? Not helpful? They send a list of demands.

Sara 33:29

And, you know, Hazel Hearth could have gotten out of the conflict, except that one of the demands was like 20 kids to eat, and they decided that that was not worth it.

Lilly 33:38

Yeah. But so, but that's like a very reasonable like. Here is the cost of avoiding this fight. Is the cost worth it? And I agree with them. Yeah. Handing over a bunch of children probably not worth it. And so the consequences were people did die, but that's such a reasonable, such conclusion to come to that. No, we would rather die, fight and die defending our town than give up. A bunch of like children between this height and that height, among other things. That wasn't the o even the only thing they were asking for. Just the, the one that was the big no go,

Sara 34:15

yeah.

Lilly 34:16

like Lady East El DeMar was reading it and she was like, oh, okay, 20 sheep, that would suck, but we could afford it. And then she got to the children and was like, nah.

Sara 34:27

yeah, but I really liked that there was that back and forth. I mean, it's not a back and forth because the ogre send over their list of demands and the town says no, but. There is that opportunity for a back and forth and the fact that that's there just, yeah, I, I really enjoyed it, even though it made entire sense, perfect sense that they don't want to, you know, exceed to that, that list of demands.

Lilly 34:55

Yes, they do actually consider paying. The demands instead of going through with the fight it until they get to the, you know,

Sara 35:04

It just, it,

Lilly 35:05

eating.

Sara 35:06

it felt like they do, everyone does their best to avoid getting in fights and acknowledging that sometimes you do have to fight made sense, but also acknowledging that if you can get out of fights, you should do that

Lilly 35:22

That's better. Yeah. Yeah, no, just how all of that was handled. I really loved and was part of what made the book so enjoyable, I think. Because then, yeah, even when they were fighting, I was never like prickly about it.

Sara 35:39

It. Yeah. I never wondered why they were fighting.

Lilly 35:42

Or it was never, oh boo hoo, you got your arm bit off. Well you deserved it'cause you're an idiot. You know? when Lee does get pretty, badly injured, it's because he was, you know, doing his best to say that little kid's life. It was not stupid heroics in any way.

Sara 35:59

Yeah, and I mean. That said, Lee does have a tendency towards stupid heroics. And everyone around him is like, no, that's dumb. Why are you, why do you wanna do that? You are going to die. And it really tempers it. And, but I think that having that juxtaposition is important because it shows that that's the kind of person Lee is. But that's not necessarily the smartest way to go about it.

Lilly 36:26

Especially at the beginning when he's approaching every situation like he's in a fantasy novel. Which I also really like. That kind of breaking the fourth wall I thought was really nice. And his growth over the course of the book, it wasn't as dramatic as like Lady Il Noir who started off being a huge bitch and ended up being a huge bitch that I loved. He was much more like, he became more thoughtful and less.

Sara 36:57

Impulsive.

Lilly 36:59

Yeah. Thank you. And so that growth I thought was very, that was very subtle, but even at the end, you know, Sam, we get some of her interior thoughts of like, dang, he noticed that before I did.

Sara 37:14

Yeah. I mean it was it was subtle, but it was still very satisfying.

Lilly 37:18

It was, and. Gave him so much more dimension as a character than just he's the Braun. Even just the fact that he's trying to invent a board game gave him more dimension from the beginning.

Sara 37:31

Yeah.

Lilly 37:32

But yeah, his development, I think he was probably the protagonist. cause Sam, I mean learns, but she doesn't like. Grow as a person that much. She's, she's pretty stable through the whole thing.

Sara 37:47

Yeah, I mean, I think both Sam and Lee are the main characters, but if I had to pick one, Lee does go through more character growth, so.

Lilly 37:56

Yeah. I was very specifically using the word protagonist and not main character. cause he's the one who undergoes change. But the two of them like. Work, like bouncing off of each other and their banter and everything was just really enjoyable. Even if they don't kiss,

Sara 38:14

No, but see, that's what the fan fiction is for.

Lilly 38:16

Yeah, I mean that's exactly the right like line it it. I like that they don't get together in the book. I just think that they had a really solid relationship, friendship, relationship, and that you could build off of. That is all I'm saying.

Sara 38:32

I mean the best, I think the best romantic relationships start out as friendships. So in in that sense, yes, I agree with you.

Lilly 38:38

Yeah, solid basis.

Sara 38:40

Yeah.

Lilly 38:41

So I'm gonna go write some salmon leaf hand fiction. I'll, I'll be, I'll get back to you in a couple weeks. Goodbye.

Sara 38:49

Send it to me when you're done. I will read it, Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 38:59

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara 39:10

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 39:17

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 39:23

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly 39:27

Bye.