Apparently, Sir Cameron Needs to Die by Greer Stothers

Your hosts attempt to discuss Apparently, Sir Cameron Needs to Die by Greer Stothers in a non-spoilery way, before giving up and moving on to the spoiler section. They talk about the fun twists, killing god, and the excellent romance.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

 [00:00:00]  
 

Lilly: Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily, 

Sara: And I'm Sarah. And today we will be talking about apparently Sir Cameron needs to die by Greer Stuthers. 

Lilly: but first we have our quick five minute introduction, starting with what is something great that happened recently? 

Sara: I went to the theater again with our aunt. We saw the stage play version of paranormal activity. Actually, I I don't think that it's, follows any of the movie plots. I think it's its own plot. 

Lilly: like, it's not the stage play of Paranormal Activity one. It is part of the Paranormal activity franchise. 

Sara: yes. I, I think it's, its its own thing, but it is part of the franchise. And it was hands down the best thing that we've seen. As part of our [00:01:00] season tickets this season, it was also not to my taste because I am not a horror person and it was a horror show but it was really good. 

Lilly: Well, I'm glad that you, uh. add value out of the evening, even if you didn't particularly enjoy the play itself. 

Sara: Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's that weird place of like, I did enjoy the play, but also I was terrified the entire time. And that's not a feeling I enjoy. 

Lilly: Yeah. 

Sara: But yeah, if, paranormal activity, the stage play is near you, it's worth going to go see it. 

Lilly: Well, fun. We impulsively rearranged a bunch of furniture in the house, and it was, it was, oh, I'm glad we did. We were like, this couch isn't working here. We should probably move it into the other room. And then we were like, should we just do that? And then we just did it, the, the conversation to actual, like. 

Hardcore furniture rearranging was maybe five minutes. impulsive, very [00:02:00] good. It's much easier to walk around now and more importantly, the cats fucking love it. 

Sara: Well, I'm excited to see the new layout next, next time I visit. 

Lilly: It's less that the cats care what the layout of our house is, and more just like changing furniture is really exciting for them. 

Sara: Yeah, new 

Lilly: Yeah. Yeah. They've been frolicking around like it's a whole new place and it's so, it's been delightful. 

Sara: I think maybe you just have to like move your furniture periodically for them. 

Lilly: I mean, it's not a bad idea. It's enrichment. 

Sara: Exactly. 

Lilly: What are you drinking tonight? I really hope it's alcoholic. 

Sara: It is alcoholic. I am drinking boxed rose wine, which I do think is very much a villain coated beverage in this novel. 

Lilly: I think that's actually like the perfect drink this book. 

Sara: Yes. 

Lilly: There, the beverage, I think that appears in this [00:03:00] book is probably ale, but this is not a beer book. 

Sara: Sir Cameron orders an ale at one point, but he also, he and Marillo also share a flag in of wine. 

Lilly: Okay. That's good. Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember. 

Sara: Yeah. But I, I do specifically think that there is a villain character, and I'm not gonna say who who would be drinking Boxed Rose wine. 

Lilly: I also just think boxed wine is the right vibe. Like it's indulgent, but it's also like. Very accessible in a way that this book is. 

Sara: Yes. Yes. 

Lilly: I also made a little treat of a drink. I kind of made a Bellini 

Sara: Ooh, 

Lilly: emphasis on the kind of, that drink is supposed to be peach juice and sparkling wine. but I used the syrup out of a jar of peaches and sparkling water. 

Sara: that counts. That sounds like a non-alcoholic Bellini. I'm calling it. It counts.[00:04:00]  

Lilly: And I just wanna, you know, something like indulgent and special. This book was really fun and it needs a fun drink. 

Sara: I agree. 

Lilly: Yeah. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we probably have not read anything. Not for the podcast lately. 

Sara: I actually have not read. I know. So hear me out. I've not read a book. That's not for the podcast, but. There was an article in the New Yorker, which I couldn't read because it was paywall blocked, but it was about Anthony Bourdain, Narnia, like a specific Anthony Bourdain, Narnia fan fiction. So I read that 

Lilly: Okay. 

Sara: and I, I don't normally count Fanfic as part of like. 

The answer for this question but specifically because it was talked about in like a big published magazine, I think it counts. 

Lilly: I mean, we specifically made the tagline and other words too, to encompass things [00:05:00] that are not books, but fair enough. 

Sara: Yeah. But it was fun to read about him trying different nar and cuisine. 

Lilly: what was the ambiance of this? Was it a crack fic? Was it just silly? 

Sara: It so it's a one shot. And we can link it. I'll send you the link. we'll link it in the, the episode description so people, if you're listening, you can go out and read this yourself if you want. It was a silly premise that was handled straight. 

Lilly: Okay. The best kind. 

Sara: Yes, yes. So it, it knew that it was silly, but it also was taking itself seriously, but not in a frustrating way. 

Lilly: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sara: Like it was self-aware. And it was also done, just done really well. 

Lilly: That's awesome. I will probably read it when you send me the link to include in the show notes. 

Sara: Because it's a one shot. It's short. Like I, I read it before we started recording this. You'll finish it in 20 [00:06:00] minutes, you know. 

Lilly: Well, we are here to talk about, apparently Sir Cameron needs to die, and I think our first conversation has to be forcing our listeners to relive a text conversation you and I had earlier today where you said, apparently Sir Cameron needs to die was a trip. I was like, really? It was based on a drug trip? 

Like is there a different kind of trip That seems strange, but I didn't read the afterwards, so maybe, and then I waited a minute and I was like, oh no, that's the title of the book. 

Sara: Yes, apparently Sir Cameron needs to die is a trip. It, it goes in a lot of places that I did not expect, but I do not know if the author was on drugs when they wrote this. 

Lilly: And that was just a wild thing to assert. And I was like, what? Do you know that I don't? 

Sara: Nothing in this case 

Lilly: It was very fun to read. The [00:07:00] title of the book. Being a whole ass sentence does make it weird to talk about. Just like in discussion for things like that, you even punctuated it correctly. You put the comma in. 

Sara: because the title has the comma. 

Lilly: Yeah, 

Sara: But I think, I think we should say upfront that, because it was such a trip, this is going to be a pretty short spoiler free section because there's a, there's a lot of things that I think are spoilers in this book that I wanna talk about. 

Lilly: there are even some things. That usually our rule is what first 20% or so 

is free  

game,  

but the process of reading this book and discovering what happens next at basically every point was so delightful. I don't wanna ruin that for anybody. 

Sara: we've talked about in previous episodes, how there are some books where it's not the journey necessarily that. you [00:08:00] mind being spoiled but this is one where I think the journey is worth not knowing anything. 

Lilly: A surprisingly plot centric novel for how silly it is. 

Sara: Yes, there's a lot of plot, there's a lot of twists. It's really delightful in a way that makes it very hard to talk about on a podcast where you are not saying spoilers. 

Lilly: But I think it's fair to say, well, we can definitely say, because the back of the book says the premise is a love story that kind of like gets you into it, right? Sir Cameron fleece for his life ends up with the who would be a villain in any other per perspective of story. Marlo the evil sorcerer and they hook up and we're gonna leave it at that for now. 

However, while that is like the main through line of the book, them getting together and what [00:09:00] comes along from that, I'd say the book is primarily about. Trying to kill God. 

Sara: Yes, I agree. I, I think that the the book is about steps that Marillo takes to kill God. It just also happens to have a romance plot line. 

Lilly: It's interesting 'cause when you read the back of the book, it focuses a lot more on their relationship. Him trying to kill God. It just kind of seems like his quirky quest, if you will, but actually like going through it, that is much more the center of what's going on and that's part of what makes it Okay. 

Feel okay to talk about the relationship stuff and not everything else in this nons spoiler section. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lilly: I usually relentlessly horny, agreed with the choice for all of the sex scenes to be fade to black. 

Sara: I agree. I mean, I am. [00:10:00] Not usually relentlessly horny, when, when it comes to sex scenes and books. But I think that it would have been, it wouldn't have served the like ultimate story of this book to have non fade to black sex scenes. 

Lilly: Not at all. The tone is very silly and lighthearted, and I think a silly sex scene would've kind of ruined it 'cause that would've been too silly because despite how. Funny and unserious. So much of the prose is it's still very sincere 

Sara: Mm-hmm. 

Lilly: and it's hard to have a sincere and silly sex scene. 

Sara: and the relationship between Marillo and Sir Cameron is very sincere. 

Lilly: Yes. 

Sara: I, I do think that we get. We, some non explicit foreplay, I'm gonna call it. And I think that does a really good job of, of straddling that [00:11:00] silly but still sincere line. 

Lilly: I, I agree. Yeah. 

Sara: And I like, I think that was the right balance to strike for this book. 

Lilly: yes, absolutely. 

Sara: I also really like that in all of the. Descriptions of Marlo. He's not actually hot. Like Sir Cameron is absolutely head over heels for him, but it's really nice 

Lilly: Eventually, 

Sara: eventually. Yeah, okay. It takes a while, but, but he gets there. But I think really good to have romantic relationships. Like where the characters aren't TV movie star attractive explicitly, not that 

Lilly: Yeah, Marlo is a, not even aggressively average, like he's kind of, ah. 

Sara: he is. 

Lilly: he, he is like a normal guy who's been through some shit. 

Sara: He's really pale. He is a little too skinny. He is. He's [00:12:00] got greasy hair, you know. He is, yeah, he's, he is an average guy who's been through shit. 

Lilly: Yeah. while Sir Cameron is a babe, a self-described babe, and Marlo doesn't discount that. He's also very upset. Or not upset, but concerned when that appears to be the only value Cameron sees in himself. 

Sara: Yeah. Marlo isn't with Cameron because he's hot. 

Lilly: But he is also not like, I don't see your appearance. He's like, yeah, you are. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lilly: I okay. I had to correct you earlier. Or add context when you said that Cameron was head over heels for Morelo because the pace of their relationship was one of my favorite things ever. 

Sara: That's fair. That's very fair. 

Lilly: and I think especially because this isn't, like, there's no way this is considered a, a romance in any like capital R sense of the [00:13:00] term. No fiction slash fantasy. 

Sara: Yeah. I, I don't even think this is considered romantic. I mean, I. 

Lilly: No, and that's so good because it means their relationship doesn't follow any of the prescribed plot points or like beats that it has to, which ends up making such a realistic relationship. 

They start hooking up and then getting to know each other and deepening their relationship, which. A very normal thing in the real world, but in romance novels, it's, you can't kiss someone until you've decided to spend your life with them, 

Sara: Yeah, they, they definitely have a situationship before they have a relationship. And the way that comes about is just so utterly delightful. And the way that it progresses is so utterly delightful. And I agree that we would have been highly unlikely to see it in a Capital R romance novel. 

Lilly: And it it, I think that just kind of encapsulates my position [00:14:00] on this book. Like the relationship is so key to my enjoyment of it, but it's almost circumstantial if you actually plotted out. 

Sara: I mean, I, I agree in some respects. It's not what is driving the book, right? What's driving the book is Marlo's attempts to kill God or or his quest to kill God. But it is also because this book is primarily from Cameron's point of view, it is also quite integral to the storyline because. We're, we're getting it. 

Like, I mean, it's integral to, to Cameron. 

Lilly: Yeah, it's important. Marlo is important to him. 

Sara: Yeah. And so we see that development. So I think, I think the development of the relationship is quite important to the book as a whole. It's just that it's not what's driving the plot. 

Lilly: Yeah, you're right. Coincidental wasn't the right word. It, I think it was just [00:15:00] so refreshing for their interpersonal relationship. To develop separately from the plot. Maybe that's what I'm saying, 

Sara: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Lilly: like both of those things were happening at the same time. They were related, of course, like interconnected, 'cause it's a well-written book. It would be weird if they were completely disconnected from each other. But I, I guess. No, I, this might be the point where we have to switch to spoilers. 

Sara: I mean, so much of, so much of this book is hard to talk about without spoilers. Way more than usual. 

Lilly: It is so much fun in so many ways. I did not expect, okay, I will say this. I am that annoying person. Well, not always. I can read a room, but. I talk during movies,  

Sara: So do  

I. We, we must be related.  

Lilly: Yeah. I not in a movie theater. And, you know, I identify the people who enjoy that kind of movie [00:16:00] watching experience, but I, I really like doing the, like, trying to guess what's gonna happen next. 

And I feel like I'm right quite often. Not always, obviously, but. I tend to see things coming based on like how plots are set up and stuff, 

Sara: You are, you're right. More often than not. 

Lilly: Yeah. Did not predict a single thing that happened in this book. 

Sara: No. I, similarly, I think I'm usually okay at, at figuring out what was gonna happen. Maybe not quite as adept at it as you, but, there are a lot of twists in this book, and I did not see any of them coming, or if I did see them coming, I didn't see them coming when they happened, like I thought it would happen at a later point. 

Lilly: Yeah, and, and some of them. I couldn't even tell that a twist was being set up. 'cause sometimes you, you read a book or watch a movie or whatever and you're like, I don't know what the twist is gonna be, but you are trying [00:17:00] way too hard to set me up for this direction for that to be true. You know? 

Sara: yeah. No, this was, like the, the twists were done so Well, 

Lilly: so who should read this book then? 

Sara: I think you should read this book if you want a humorous novel that does have a lot of heart where you're gonna go into it and you're not gonna see anything coming. 

Lilly: It's enjoyable and it's silly, and go read it, and there's just enough smooching. .  

Sara: This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by. 

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Sara: PD. F and EPUB versions can be purchased on our website and Patreon, supporters of all levels get free digital copies. 

Lilly: You can find all of the issues and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for your [00:18:00] support. 

Sara: The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Okay. Talking about the twists, the one that I was kind of thinking maybe would happen. like at the very end of the book, I thought it would be the climax and not the middle of the book was Sir Cameron actually dying. 

Lilly: Yeah, I, that's a weird one, right? Because. He is the main character. Even when the main character dies on page, you're like, well, this isn't gonna stick. And it didn't. the way that it changed, the way that it affected the plot going forward. And that's why you were right when you said no. Their relationship is does matter to the plot. 

It totally does because Marlo's changed. Marlo's plans change dramatically. By saving Sir Cameron at the sacrifice of his own ambition. 

Sara: Yeah, I mean, he [00:19:00] uses up all of his magic to do it. 

Lilly: So romantic. I'm not even being silly. It's so romantic. 

Sara: I mean, it is, it is romantic, especially when you consider that. Glenda, who's another twist told Marlo that Sir Cameron's last words for Marlo were that he loathed him and not loved him. 

Lilly: Finding that out later was so upset. Well, it stuthers did not make us like squirm too long in that moment, 

Sara: Yeah, 

Lilly: which, thanks. If I was suddenly angsting in the middle of this book, I would've been upset. 

Sara: yeah. No, we, we didn't, we didn't have to sit with that revelation for long because Sir Cameron immediately corrects murillo's misconceptions. But to think that. That's what Marlo thought, and he still went and turned back time and used up all of his magic. So romantic. 

Lilly: Amazing. Or the fact that Marlo was actually a [00:20:00] dragon, 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lilly: didn't see that coming. 

Sara: or, uh, how hard it goes on the sci-fi. 

Lilly: Yes. Okay. I love the fantasy as post-apocalyptic setting which I am most familiar with from the MTV adaptation of the Shaara Chronicles. Is that MTV or cw? It 

matters. Hold  

Sara: was. It was. MTV. It 

Lilly: It was okay. 

Sara: Yes. Also, I should point out that Wheel of time is technically a post-apocalyptic fantasy. 

Lilly: Hey, no one can be wrong all the time, but like, that's, that's a very fun concept that I really, really enjoy. And it gets introduced in this book quite early on when Marlo explains why he's trying to kill God or why he wants to it's because God. Made magic instead of science a thing. and Marula wants to reverse that and put it back to how it was, 

Sara: And this is what we [00:21:00] learn pretty early on. Definitely within the first half of the novel. Maybe not quite at the 20% mark, but it felt, yeah, it was, it was close, but it felt like too big of a spoiler to talk about in the nons spoiler section because that reveal is w. So like you get to it and you're like, what the fuck am I reading? 

In a good way 

Lilly: The thing that I didn't want to spoil actually was Glenda, 

Sara: also that. 

Lilly: if I had one thing to say about this book, actually, or not to say about it, but one thing that I. Was maybe a little disappointed by, it felt like Glenda was kind of underutilized, but we should talk about how fun her character was before I complain about it. 

Sara: Yeah, I mean, I, I have thoughts on Glenda too. But I, I don't know, are we segueing to talk about Glenda now? Are we still talking about twists? 

Lilly: I would say the very first twist is that Glenda appears [00:22:00] to be. Saving Sir Cameron's life. She's his like only friend. She rushes in to whisk him away in the middle of the night and explains that there's this prophecy that in order for the church or whatever to defeat Marillo, sir Cameron's going to have to die. 

And he's like, oh, well I'm so glad you're getting me out of there. And then it becomes apparent that no Glenda is in fact shepherding him to his death. And she becomes basically the main villain of the book, 

Sara: She is going to be the one who kills him. And then when he escapes, she gets big mad about it and yeah. Chases him throughout the rest of the novel. Trying yeah, trying desperately to kill him in the most painful way she can. 

Lilly: and succeeds 

Sara: Yes. And, and succeeds halfway through the book. She does kill him. 

Lilly: the way that was revealed was just [00:23:00] so delightful, and I think also kind of sets you up for, oh, okay, that's what's going on in this book. And then also finding out that the only reason why she was sad is because she was taking drugs to affect her emotions, and she actually didn't give a shit about him at all. 

So funny. 

Sara: Yeah, that was, that was good. I will say that the thing that I thought was going to happen was that I thought Glenda was going to be the dragon half sibling. 

Lilly: Oh, interesting, 

Sara: And that that was going to be why she had like issues with her with her emotions. 

Lilly: interesting. Okay. But, oh, but there's, my issue is like, that never really gets explored. I mean, it comes up and she's abusing drugs to feel emotions, and she kind of talks about it a little bit, but it doesn't, I guess it doesn't get resolved in any way. 

Sara: It doesn't she also doesn't go through a lot of character growth. I mean, [00:24:00] she, you, you learn that she's got a little bit of repressed feelings because likes women. or it's implied that she likes women. And in this society it's. Heterosexual relationships are nothing basically is is the norm and anything else is definitely viewed as, as not kosher. 

Lilly: I mean, they're, they're all extremely homophobic. Yeah. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lilly: I guess not all, but you know, the society as a whole 

Sara: Yeah. So society as a whole is pretty homophobic. And you learn that, that. She's maybe got some, some real repressed feelings there, but she doesn't go through a lot of growth. In a way. I kind of like that because sometimes people just don't grow. She's given a lot of opportunities. 

Lilly: Yeah, I didn't need her to grow. She was the villain. She could be villainous, I guess. I just, I didn't feel like she had a resolution. [00:25:00] She brings Doha, who is the half dragon, half elf, to help her kill. Sir Cameron Doha kicks her out because she's dead weight and then she kind of just never gets seen again. 

Sara: We see her a little bit. But, but yeah, she is not, she's not important after that. 

didn't mind that. Like I kind of, I kind of liked it because again, it's subverting your expectations of. Fantasy tropes and what's gonna happen? 

Lilly: I mean, I didn't care what happened. I, I guess I just wanted, maybe wanted to see more of her after the sci-fi switch because, while Marlo, well, I guess God is already dead. Spoiler. 

Sara: We, we do learn that God is already dead. Marillo doesn't need to kill God. God's already gone. 

Lilly: he does not totally succeed, but he also doesn't totally fail. And I'm, I'm just gonna leave it at that for now in case we don't have to spoil the whole thing, but [00:26:00] we'll see. And so after there is now a fantasy science hybrid world. We see Glenda mad about it, but we don't really see her living in this world at all. And she is, I mean, she's the villain. She's not a main character, but we have chapters that follow her pretty consistently throughout the book. I don't know, it just felt 

Sara: I mean 

Lilly: it didn't have a resolution. 

Sara: that by that point of the story, we don't see anything on nia, which is the name of their world, or it's the name of their. Continent. We don't see anything on, on Nia at all. Like we're, we're off on the moon by that point, 

Lilly: No, we have a chapter from her perspective after the spell has gone off. 

Sara: right after the spell has gone off, but, but not after they actually get on the, on the 

Lilly: On the [00:27:00] ship, 

Sara: Yeah. After they get on the spaceship. It's, it's all. Cameron on the moon. 

Lilly: Yeah. I don't know. I, I just, for how much time I spent with her, I didn't need her to suddenly become a good guy or anything and like realize the error of her ways. But I just wanted something more from the end of her. 

Sara: Mm, Mm, I see what you're saying. I didn't feel the same way, but I, I understand why you feel that way. 

Lilly: Yeah. I don't know. It just felt like an unsatisfying, almost cliffhanger, but not in like a compelling way. Just in a like wet fart, sad, whimper way. 

Sara: Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of liked that. It just, it just ends. 

Lilly: deserves that. Yeah. That's fair. 

Sara: Like, because she, she builds herself up as important in her own head and she's really not, 

Lilly: That's true, and that does kind of lead into our next point where this is really a story of side [00:28:00] characters 

Sara: It is. I mean, sir Cameron is basically the henchman for the evil sorcerer. Like that's, that's his character archetype. Murillo's got his, his evil thing going down, and Sir Cameron's just following him around. 

Lilly: And then Glenda, who is kind of who I said, our main villain throughout the book ends up being totally inconsequential. She brings in Misha, who is actually the one who thwarts the plan. But it's really the big showdown is between Misha and Marlo. Cameron and Glenda have nothing to do with it. 

Sara: Yeah, I mean it, it is, like you say, it is a book about side characters. 

Lilly: Yeah, which was fun. And with Sir Cameron, I mean, obviously he's the main character, like Yeah. That he has a satisfying conclusion that we follow all the way through. Misha was. Tragic as hell. 

Sara: She, I really hope that she would survive. I was sad that she died. 

Lilly: Even if, okay, [00:29:00] even if she did die, I thought she was gonna have something with Hi Hina. Hina. How did you pronounce Marlo's sister's name? 

Sara: I was saying hyena, I  

Lilly: Because like, kind of like Hydra, but like Hilda at the same time. Hena. Yeah. 

Sara: Hydra, but with an N instead of an R. 

Lilly: So Hana is described as being oh, you know, am I twisting a, there was a scene between Glenda and Misha. Was Misha also kind of queer or was that just Glenda? 

Sara: Oh no. Isha was absolutely queer because she, she talks about how the only reason why she got involved in this was because she had a weakness for, for women. 

Lilly: Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. I'm not making this up. I did not take any notes while I read this book. I just like wrote down my thoughts and opinions at the end, which means I'm worried that I got some details mixed up, but I did not. Okay.  

Sara: You're, you're doing the Sarah version [00:30:00] of podcasting instead of the lily version. 

Lilly: Yeah. So, yeah, we, we hear how Isha has Oh yeah. Because she also explains how she has a weakness for women, whether they're small and sad, like Glenda or big and strong. And that just felt so much like it was foreshadowing her meeting Hana, who 

Sara: Yeah, but Hayden Hyn is also 

Lilly: of a woman. 

Sara: Hayden's also her half sister. 

Lilly: Oh, shit. Yeah. That kind of doesn't work, 

Sara: Yeah. Like I wasn't expecting there to be any kind of romantic relationship between them. But I was hoping that Doha would have a sibling relationship with Marlo and Hana, because they talk about in the, in the beginning of the book, they talk about how there's this, this third dragon who's a half dragon, half elf, who is raised by the elves and really kind of rejects her drag in half. 

And it's too dangerous to like try to go find her because she's. [00:31:00] Been essentially brainwashed by, by the elves, and we find out that the brainwashing is maybe not, not quite as true as they think it is, but she's definitely a quote unquote good guy versus our quote unquote villain dragon siblings. 

And I, I was hoping that they would have a familial relationship and we don't get that at all. 

Lilly: No, I will admit that I definitely thought they were using like the sister terminology kind of euphemistically, like as she is one of the only remaining dragons. She's of the Sisterhood of Dragons and didn't realize that no, she like actually actual blood half sister. Until a little while in, 

Sara: Yeah, no act actual blood, half sister. 

Lilly: which is probably why I concocted that all in my head, and then was disappointed that it didn't go anywhere because of course it didn't. So [00:32:00] we've talked a lot around Sir Cameron. But not about this delightful doofus of a man at the center of this book, much at all. 

Sara: I'm gonna admit that it took me a while to warm up to Sir Cameron. 

Lilly: Well, he's quite airheaded at the beginning and kind of plays into that. 

Sara: He, yeah, he's, he's really Airheaded. He's kind of like L Woods, illegally blonde. 

Lilly: Yes, he's the night version of Elle Woods. 

Sara: He is the night version of Al Woods. He's hot. He knows it. He, he doesn't put in any work because he's hot. 

Lilly: Well, that's unfair. He is good at doing night stuff. He just also doesn't wanna die, so he avoids it. It's not 'cause he doesn't wanna do work. 

Sara: It's, no, you're right. It's not 'cause he doesn't wanna do work, but it's also, I don't think that, that he's good at night stuff. 

Lilly: Well, we don't know how he is in a real fight,  

but he does [00:33:00] like train with a sword and stuff. 

It's  

not like he  

Sara: he does train, he does train with a sword, but I think that that is related to appearances and not like actual work putting in. 

Lilly: maybe. 

Sara: Yeah, like I, I think he, he does everything that is required for, for physical upkeep. 

Lilly: I, I think that's definitely how the characters around him see him. But I think something should be said for his incredible adaptability that we see throughout this book, and it kind of feels like. Marlo and even Sir Cameron himself a little bit, attribute it to being vapid like, oh, he's only adaptable because he doesn't care or really understand what's going on. 

But he throws himself wholeheartedly into the whole henchman thing, and then hench woman thing when that happens for a little while 

Sara: and hench vulture thing. 

Lilly: and hench vulture thing and the ability [00:34:00] to roll with the punches to that degree is incredible. 

Sara: it is, and I, I do think that part of it has to do with the fact that Cameron is very secure in his own body and it doesn't matter. Whether that's the body of a vulture or a woman, Cameron knows who Cameron is. 

Lilly: Yeah, maybe he, he's comfortable with his identity and his self. Yeah. 

Sara: Yeah. And so like, he's, he's not paying attention necessarily to the, the specifics of what his outside looks like. I know I just said he was very focused on his physical appearance, but, but not in a. Not in an insecure way. Right? Like he knows he looks good. He knows that this is one of his great traits. 

And He sees himself as a people person, and that's the trait that he goes with. 

Yeah. 

Lilly: and it's definitely played for laughs, especially when it [00:35:00] doesn't work on Marlo, except it does. 

Sara: I mean, it totally does, and, and I like, I did have trouble with it a little bit, particularly in the beginning because of the, the disconnect of how Cameron sees himself versus how other people see himself. I was like, okay, I know, I know you're confident, but, be a little bit more aware of. Read the room a little bit. But the, the thing that worked for me was that Cameron does grow and does gain some more attributes rather than like, beyond just is comfortable with his physicality. 

Lilly: Yeah, I mean, he learns how to love. I mean, even that's unfair, right? Because he's gay in a society where that's not allowed at all. And so he is never really had, like he's had dalliances, but he is never had like a relationship, at [00:36:00] least from what we can tell on the page. 

Sara: Yeah, I mean, like he, he knows how to love, but he learns how to, how to stand in his convictions about his love. 

Lilly: Speaking of the Hench woman, period, it was such a delightful plot point, and yet it didn't feel minimized or like it was all played as a joke. Oh, big strong man now is woman,  

Sara: well, well, and I, I think that has a lot to do with how much Cameron. Just rolls with the punches and it was like, cool, I'm a woman now. It, I've got tits. I look great. I can wear all of these, you know, really sexy dresses. it's awesome. And I do think that it's contrasted Cameron's easy acceptance of the change. 

And to an extent, Marlo's. I mean, Marlo is the one who, who made the change. But I don't think Marlo thought deeply about it. I think, I think Marlo was like, oh, turning a big, [00:37:00] handsome man into a woman is gonna be just as embarrassing as, as turning a big, handsome man into a vulture 

Lilly: Well, he was trying to avoid the prophecy right? 

Sara: Well, he was trying to avoid the prophecy, but also at this point they're, they're still kind of antagonistic. 

I, I think Melo wants to, to make Cameron feel bad. And Cameron just doesn't 'cause 

Lilly: Marlo was definitely upset that Cameron was so chill with being a vulture. 

Sara: Yeah, so I think Marilla was like, okay, we'll we'll try turning you to a woman, then see how you like it. And Cameron's like, this is great. But I, I do think that those scenes are so successful because it contrasts with how yeah, how, how the antagonist characters view it and how they're like, well, Cameron's not actually a woman. Cameron's just like, this is just some weird shit. And Cameron's like, no, I'm a woman [00:38:00] now. 

Lilly: They're also just absolutely appalled, Yeah. 

And, and again, Cameron's easy acceptance of it is just incomprehensible to them. How can he not be freaking out and upset that his body has changed 

Sara: Yeah, I really liked that whole, the way, the way all of that was handled. 

Lilly: And while there were some, some jokes involved, it was mostly around Sir Cameron not knowing how women work. His bafflement at periods was pretty funny. 

Sara: That was, yeah, that, that was, that was pretty great. 

Lilly: Yeah. And there's a, there's a callback to it. Later on in the book where Hana's like, yes, Cameron, every month 

Sara: We've talked about this. 

Lilly: that I, that was just very funny to me. And so, yeah, the jokes were along that line and not, isn't it hysterical that he has to be a little lady? 

Sara: [00:39:00] Yeah. And, and the people who were talking like that were quite clearly the villains. 

Lilly: We have used the word villain to refer to every single 

Sara: Okay. That's true. They, they were, they were quite clearly the antagonistic characters in the wrong. 

Lilly: To clarify, because Marlo is kind of a villain he, he is set up as he's the big, bad. 

Sara: if you look at it from a traditional storytelling perspective Marlo is the villain of the story. He is the big bad. He is, he is trying to to break society. 

Lilly: Change the status quo. Illegal? 

Sara: Yes. And he doesn't care who he kills to do it, as long as it's not sir Cameron. 

Lilly: Yeah. their relationship is truly. I mean, we don't, we don't see like a lot of them professing their love for each other on the page or anything 

Sara: No, but it like they talked to each other, it was so healthy. 

Lilly: it [00:40:00] really was I, the moment that really stuck out to me was when, sir Cameron was not flirting with Hana. She was messing with him. Just specifically teasing him. Marula was like, I think he says, I forbid you from sleeping with my sister. And Sir Cameron says something to the effect of, duh. And just that like, it's played for laughs in the moment, but taking a step back, like it's just very like forthright, communication. 

Sara: Well, I think, I think the fact that Marlo expresses his discomfort Cameron responds appropriately and then Marlo trusts Cameron, and it's not brought up again. Right? Like. It's, it's not, it's not a constant worry that Marlo pokes at because he, he knows that if Cameron says it's not gonna happen, it's not gonna [00:41:00] happen. 

Lilly: and, and just instead of trying to like. Talk around it or getting butt hurt about them being close and then keeping that to himself until it all comes out in a fight or something. Just like, Hey, I don't, I don't want this. 

Sara: No, it's, it's delightful. Also, the fact that they have a safe word and that their safe word is microwave. 

Lilly: it's a pretty good, safe word. 

Sara: It just, it's such a healthy relationship, even if it starts out as a weird situationship, because Cameron just gets turned on by, you know, being talked down to. 

Lilly: But like that's, that's so normal. I think a lot of people in the real world get physically close to someone. Then decide to go exclusive and make it serious. Like that is not a crazy timeline for a relationship. 

Sara: it's, it's not, 

Lilly: But in stories, it's always like the physical closeness always has to come [00:42:00] after the emotional closeness, 

Sara: Yeah. You have to find your, your one true love first. 

Lilly: Yeah. And that's just kind of exhausting. 

Sara: No, I agree. 

Lilly: Yeah, maybe a good way to get to know someone is by physical compatibility, and that doesn't mean that you have to sleep with someone to get to know them. Obviously that's not true, but it's just the, the huge numbers of stories where it's the other way around. It is such a breath of fresh air seeing this like extremely realistic relationship. 

A A bonkers plot. 

Sara: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's nice to see the breadth of relationships that people experience even when the setting is bonkers like this. 

Lilly: Yeah.  

Sara: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans. 

Lilly: Come disagree with [00:43:00] us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube. 

Sara: If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live. 

Lilly: We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense. 

Sara: Thanks again for listening, and may your antagonists always be defeated. Bye.