Fiction Fans

Author Interview: Terms of Service by Ciel Pierlot

• Lilly and Sara • Episode 207

Share episode

Your hosts are joined by Ciel Pierlot to talk about her latest novel, Terms of Service. They discuss tech fae, the presumption of space in scifi, visions of a competent future government, and the twisting of fae tropes you may be familiar with from mythology (but you can admit that you know them from romantasy it's okay).


Find more from Ciel:

https://bsky.app/profile/cielpierlot.bsky.social

https://cielpierlot.com/

https://www.instagram.com/cielpierlot/


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily

Sara:

And I am Sarah, and I'm so pleased to welcome cl Pirlo back on the podcast this time to talk about her new book, terms of Service.

Ciel:

Hi, everybody.

Sara:

Nice to have you back.

Ciel:

Good to be back.

Lilly:

and cannot wait to talk about this book. Sarah and I got on an hour early to get like most of our chaos out, so we could actually ask you questions and not just scream the whole time.

Sara:

I, there's, there might still be a little bit of screaming. Fair warning.

Ciel:

is, screaming is always welcome. I'm never gonna say to screaming.

Lilly:

So before we get into that, our quick introduction, what's something great that happened recently?

Ciel:

I finally moved to a new place. I was previously living somewhere where the ceiling was really sloped so I could stand up in about 10% of my room. And now I'm in somewhere that has a normal ceiling where I can stand up in 100% of my room. So I'm very excited about that.

Lilly:

That's great. Oh, moving is always like the worst until you're done, and then it feels so

Ciel:

Oh, yeah. Once you've unpacked the final boxes and have like a comfortable bed to sleep in, you're just like, oh, okay, cool. We're, this is so much better.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Ciel:

But, and, and while you're doing it, it's a nightmare.

Lilly:

Sarah.

Sara:

My good thing is that I was blessed once more by the pug distribution system. So I have accidentally acquired a third pug. Her name is Cookie. She is eight months old and she and Dumpling spend the entire day play fighting. That's all they do. I am so tired. Please send help.

Lilly:

But the thing is, if we add more Sarahs, then you'll need to add more pugs to even out the ratio. And then it's just like a vicious cycle.

Sara:

It's true.

Ciel:

It is like the bigger a house you get, the more cats you can put in it,

Sara:

Mm-hmm.

Ciel:

and then you have a lot of cats and you have to get a bigger house, but then you have a bigger house and you can put more caps in it.

Lilly:

exactly. My good thing is that this week I beat my father at fantasy football.

Ciel:

Oh, hell yeah.

Sara:

Congratulations.

Lilly:

I am not super into football and he is very into fantasy football, so I have been needling him endlessly about it all week.

Ciel:

You beat him at his own game.

Lilly:

really did. I think he's a little happy about it, I never thought I would, I'm gonna be honest. What is everyone drinking tonight? I have tea because tea features heavily in this book, although I am drinking iced tea 'cause it's warm today.

Ciel:

I am drinking a Monster Energy drink out of a very nice, reusable water bottle because I love reusable water bottles. I don't know, get yourself one. This isn't a sponsorship picked at one.

Lilly:

Yeah. Brand non-specific water bottle.

Ciel:

Yeah it, it has a brand, but I'm not saying it because they don't pay me.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I am drinking the finest of ASI boxed wines imported directly from the deep. I thought about having some nice imported astro tea, but it is too hot here and I did not make iced tea in time.

Ciel:

Yeah, it's summer. Still is summer.

Sara:

yep.

Lilly:

And this is actually a book podcast. So has anyone read anything Good lately? Although the obvious answer is terms of service, which we're about to talk about.

Ciel:

I recently finished MJ Kuhn's among thieves and it was very good. I'm very looking forward to this equal go read it.

Lilly:

Yeah. That has been on my TBR for an embarrassingly long time.

Sara:

it, yes, it has been on the TBR for a long. We really should just like make it a podcast book because then we know we'll read it.

Lilly:

It's the only way.

Ciel:

List is endless.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

And there are only so many days in the year. Tragically,

Ciel:

Yeah, we don't get a second year just for reading, unfortunately.

Sara:

we should,

Ciel:

Yeah, we deserve it.

Sara:

we do.

Lilly:

Or the first year could be for reading. That would be fine too.

Ciel:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I wouldn't mind. Alright, so terms of service. We struggled so much with how to phrase the genre of this book because some of it might be a spoiler, so.

Ciel:

I did have a number of like as an author, when you're about to publish a book, you get a lot of like various editorial briefs. Like, this is the, you know, blurb that we're sending to X website that we're publishing an excerpt or a promotion on, or, you know, this is like the marketing sheet we're giving out or whatever. And there were a number of times where it was like, this is an interesting way to phrase the genre, but I understand why we're phrasing it that way. Please don't describe it somewhere, some way else. And also please remove this one word that you have in there that is a spoiler. I know that that's a common genre, but remove it.

Lilly:

I think we landed on technology, fae

Ciel:

yes. I, I think I advertised it as like space fae or

Sara:

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Lilly:

you used the word

Sara:

I feel, I feel vindicated because I,

Ciel:

I use space fae because it's so obviously sci-fi ish. So I just slap space onto things that are kind of sci-fi because I think everyone's used to like space just being used as a general sci-fi prefix.

Sara:

And I think that's where I was coming from. Like I at about maybe like 75 pages in to the book texted Lily going, it's space fae.

Ciel:

yeah. It's Spaceface. Well, because, you know, I, it's kind of like, star Wars, star Trek, Stargate. People just kinda use Star as like a preface for that kind of genre. So oftentimes we'll just use space as a preface for anything that's sci-fi or specifically sci-fi that's not earth based. Like, you know, if you have a sci-fi that's set on earth, people won't, if you have a sci-fi that's clearly not set on earth, no matter where it's set space is just kind of a common prefix. So I just use that 'cause it's, it's easy. Yeah, in marketing.

Lilly:

and aren't we all in space? If you think about it,

Ciel:

We all are. Yeah. There's no not space.

Lilly:

yes. Or if there is, that's a different book.

Ciel:

Yeah, that's true. That is a very different book that I don't have the technical knowledge to write. I would have to get a degree in like astrophysics first and still wouldn't understand it.

Lilly:

Speaking of, this book was, felt a little harder, sci-fi, if you will, than your first novel Bluebird, which was also sci-fi e adjacent and then of course, Hunter's Gambit was a fantasy novel. So, has your research process changed for this book at all?

Ciel:

Yes, I had to do a lot more research, into various like God, I, I'm trying to avoid spoiling various types of like physics that I wouldn't get into. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that in. There are two groups of fae. One of them has various plant-based abilities, and the other has various like air and water based abilities. So I did have to do a lot of research into, for example, food limitations. If you're working exclusively. With sort of space fantasy vegan, I had to do various research into at what point does, for example, like if you're working with air, at what point does it include like dust particles that aren't air that thus could not be part of this magic system. so there was a lot of research I had to do in terms of what the limitations of those abilities were. There was a lot of research I had to do in terms of writing a self-contained unit. So the bastion, which is the setting is fully self-contained. And so there was a lot of stuff where, I never mentioned it in the book, but basically in terms of food, Soylent green I didn't mention it because, you know, we all kind of. Kind all kind of know that that's probably what was going on, at least to some degree. But there was definitely an extent to which, I had to do a lot of research into sort of like, how would air filtration work? How would like clothing work?'cause obviously, you know, it's probably either all recycled or all polyester or, you know. Made of various other like non-organic materials. So especially at the beginning of the book one of the characters wears the same set of clothes for many, many days in a row before she gets a change of clothes because it's kind of something that. Like, she's like, man, I'm kind of gross. I, I need new clothes. But the clothes are kind of designed to be something you could wear for multiple days before you have to change because you'd be really limited. there was research I had to do that I actually, I got scolded for. I initially put like concrete streets, like as, as I dimensional. It's like, oh yeah, the street was made of concrete. And I was at a retreat taught by Mary Robin at at cowal and she was like, there would not be concrete. Get that out. No, not the materials being used here. No concrete. And I was like, yes, ma'am. Understood. No concrete. So even, even at the very, like, late, late stages of editing the book, there were still tech mistakes that I made and I'm sure there are some tech mistakes that are still in there. I am not a scientist and it probably shows.

Lilly:

There, there was enough in there that I also, not a scientist, was fully on board.

Ciel:

Hell, yeah.

Sara:

same.

Lilly:

you, you mentioned the bastion, which is the, the setting for this story. We follow Lucia, Lucia, something

Ciel:

I, I say it as lu, but,

Lilly:

Lucia.

Ciel:

I mean, you know, it's, it's written down. I say Lua, but you could probably mispronounce it any other way you want. You know, also, this isn't like Space America, the pronunciation for various words is going to be different accordingly. You know, I, I don't wanna be like, if you have a British accent and you're pronouncing these words, go to jail. Because I mean, to be fair, a lot of the British do deserve jail, but not for this pronunciation reasons. except when they say taco instead of taco, then they should go to jail. That is that illegal.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. Luckily, there are no tacos in this book for this to run into that problem.

Ciel:

Yes. That that does not come up as an issue.

Lilly:

So Luzi is a first responder. Her job is, is to deal with sort of the failing infrastructure of the bastion and try to prevent disaster or deal with it once it's happened and. I thought it was so interesting how she, so she's a very anxious person. That that's very clear right away.

Ciel:

messy, neurotic type of personality.

Lilly:

But you never described that clinically like it, it's never, and she has a diagnosed anxiety disorder.

Ciel:

No, no, I, I, I think that that oftentimes does characters a disservice if you, particularly if you introduce a character very clinically because I think that, you know, if you present a character with a diagnosis, readers are going to just jump to their stereotypes about that diagnosis. So yeah, she's very anxious. And in, in my own head, I viewed her as kind of neurotic, but I don't think that she would probably be clinically described as that. And also it's space fae, I don't think they have the same standards of like mental health and clinical diagnoses that we do. And also, frankly, the DSM five has issues like, let's be honest,

Lilly:

We can hope they've evolved past that by this

Ciel:

yes.

Lilly:

I thought it was especially interesting how, I mean, so she's anxious and that is displayed both with very overblown things but also very reasonable things. so we kind of get to see her dealing with these in very similar ways, which I thought was fascinating.

Ciel:

Yeah, I I have a lot of anxiety myself had I essentially describe it as I had my anxiety midlife crisis when I was 16. So for me, I'm well acquainted with how you can have a worry that's very reasonable, like, I'm gonna miss the train, and that can spike anxiety. And then very large scale, abstract worries can also spark the same anxiety. And, you know, the like little ape brain in the back of your mind is like, these are. Equally insane, equally dangerous. Like your anxiety for missing the train is gonna be the same anxiety as like, what if your loved one is hit by a car? Like your brain just fully goes into overdrive no matter how reasonable or unreasonable the anxiety is. And that is definitely something that, happens to Lucia in that there are a lot of very reasonable fears about the bastion. There's a lot of real structural degradation. There's a lot of like serious problems that can happen. And she's dealt with a lot of them. But the result of that is she kind of sees those potential problems everywhere and as kind of happening constantly in, in a way that they're, they're not quite,

Lilly:

But I mean, your hyper vigilance saves your life once, and then it's like, well, I'm justified forever now.

Ciel:

Yep. Exactly. the one time it saves you, you're like, well, I guess I gotta rely on that constantly, forever going forward.

Sara:

One other thing about Lucia that I found really interesting and. I feel like I noticed it more partially because Lily and I had had a discussion about kind of the opposite of this in one of the previous books that we covered was Lucia's, confidence and insistence that she is in fact just like the other girls, like she is not special. And it was so refreshing to see that in a character because I feel like that is counter to what we see very frequently.

Ciel:

Yeah, I, I don't like the n log movement attitude, shall we say, but, you know, I think it kind of comes back to Lizzie's like anxieties in her worries. She's very aware that people are statistics that, you know, even if there's only like a 10% chance something could happen to you, you are a statistic. You could be part of that 10%. So she doesn't view herself as any different from anybody else because in the back of her head she views people as statistics, even as she views them all as unique and important. She does not place certain people higher than others. I mean, obviously, you know, she loves her family, you know, all that type of stuff. But there's not an extent to which she weighs her life more heavily than she would weigh the life of like a random stranger.

Lilly:

And she was so strong in her principles too. Some of the other characters try to, to trip her up or catch her in a, a logic problem like, well, what if killing one person would save a hundred? And she just says, that's stupid. No, which was excellent.

Ciel:

Yeah, there, there's there's a lot of internet debates about like, oh, well, like what if Batman just started like, murdering people all the time, and surely that would fix problems or like, whatever. And you know, you see a lot of internet debates about like, oh, well, you know, if Batman kills 10 people, then like, this is, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no. You're, you're getting into a really insane type of discussion. And so Lu's whole mentality is just like, absolutely not. I'm not doing those bullshit hypotheticals. Human lives are human lives, end of story. This isn't like a little logic puzzle,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Ciel:

not how this works.

Lilly:

So going back to what you said about the Bastion earlier, something that I. Thought was fascinating. I, I guess I'm trained to expect dystopias when you get future sci-fi societies.

Ciel:

Yes, those are very common. We love them, but they are definitely very common.

Lilly:

And it did not seem, I mean, we don't see a ton of the inner political system of the Office of Administration, but it seemed overall that they're very concerned with sustainability because they have to be, to keep, you know, society running. And they seemed fairly reasonable, at least from the bits that we saw. And that was also very refreshing to read a book where, I don't know, the, the machine isn't trying to keep everyone down.

Ciel:

Yeah, when I was conceiving of how like the bastion worked politically within like the, the human sections I guess, which is most of it, it there was sort of this view of it as kind of like, sort of star trekky, but like the, the ideal of Star Trek very, like, we don't really have money. We don't really have like class stratification. everything is incredibly practical kind of by necessity. And like, for example, there's a bit where. Lucia mentions that, you know, she lives in a, like one unit house because she is a one person and she would be assigned like a different house. If she got like a partner and had kids or whatever, she would be like assigned to a different housing unit. So it would be solely based on, there are three people in this family unit, thus you need X amount of space. Thus he will be in this building. so there there's kind of that intense practicality and that sort of sense of, Like viewing things is sort of, everything is a resource, right? I think, I think in our current situation, we tend to view things that are resources as somehow different. Like we all know food's a resource, right? But for example, there's literally a limited amount of helium in the world, but everyone's putting it in balloons anyway and like kind of wasting it.'cause you wanna like make your voice high. So it's not something we view as a resource because it's not something that we view is scarce. So when you live in a place where literally every single thing is scarce and is viewed as a resource, there is definitely a sort of almost brutalism to it in that it's the bare bones of practicality by necessity.

Lilly:

Which is very different from the experiences she has after she meets the Astro, who are, as we said, the space Fae.

Ciel:

Yes. And they are throwing all the kinds of parties you'd expect. Um,

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Ciel:

yeah, it, it was the, the switch from sort of restriction to indulgence and Lucy's, I mean, she's not very judgmental, but she's a little judgmental about it in sort of the, the way that she doesn't really understand it, like it's so foreign to her. Sort of like the wild partying and viewing things in abundance. there was a lot of stuff in the back of my head about like, you know, types of Fae tropes that you see a lot when I was writing this. And you know, one of the tropes is like, oh, you can't eat the food with a Fae or else you're stuck there forever. And here it's like, no, it's not like poison or anything, or like enchanted. It's just really good if you spend your life eating like protein bars and then somebody's like, Hey man, do you want this like fresh apple tart? You're gonna be like, I can't, how do I go back?

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Ciel:

So it, it, it was kind of those sorts of mythology elements that ended up informing a lot of how the astro work.

Sara:

So talking about these kinds of Fae tropes it reminded us a little bit of the hunter's gambit where you kind of subvert classic vampire tropes in, in the sense that you take kind of like a step to the left. Like they're still recognizable as the trope, but you're just playing with it a little bit. And you definitely do that with Fae tropes as, as you've talked a little bit about. Can you tell us a little bit more, although this might end up being sort of spoilery, so maybe in a, in a nons, spoilery way.

Ciel:

I will be very vague.

Sara:

Yeah. can you talk a little bit more about some of the Fae tropes that you play with?

Ciel:

Yeah, sure. So, kind of the main one that comes up is the idea of like, don't tell the fig your real name. That comes up right at the start. Obviously I deal with, you know, don't eat food of the fig. There's also kind of a, there's a lot of like verbal contracts and other sort of legal general like oh gosh. I'm like, I'm struggling to avoid spoilers.

Sara:

Yeah, this is, this is a hard question actually.

Ciel:

I know there's, there's, yeah, there's a lot of verbal contracts. There's a lot of like, legal ease a lot of stuff like that because you do see in Fae mythology a lot of kind of like, oh, when you bargain with the Fae, you know, you never get exactly what you expect. You know, it's based on like what's said literally rather than what's said figuratively that kind of thing. You see a lot in mythology. So here there's a lot of a lot of contracts related stuff. I mean, it's literally called terms of service. And I did that because no one ever reads the terms of service. And this isn't a spoiler, this is like chapter two or three or something. When Lucia has to deal with her contract, she kind of spaces out 'cause she's like, what the hell is all this legal shit? So she doesn't read the terms of service because nobody reads the terms of service.

Sara:

I mean, she's understandably overwhelmed by what's going on. Like, so understandable.

Ciel:

Oh, yeah. It's really understandable why she's like zoning out and like, like, what was that, what are they talking about? Hold on a sec. But that was definitely one of the reasons why I called it terms of service is once I, once I realized that part of the, the plot was that she doesn't know the terms of her contract exactly because she didn't read the terms of service. I was like, well, I gotta call it terms of service because nobody reads the terms of service. Nobody reads them.

Lilly:

Immediately relatable.

Ciel:

Yeah, exactly.

Sara:

if she had asked afterwards to read it over, would they have let her,

Ciel:

That's a good question. Oh God, I can't answer that without spoiling

Lilly:

Okay, we'll ask again. We'll ask again in a minute.

Ciel:

Yeah, yeah. There are ways you can access your contract. However, I.

Sara:

Spoiler. Spoiler, spoiler.

Ciel:

yes.

Lilly:

It was fascinating to me how the astro spoke very casually. There were a lot of like double to be verbs and they used ain't quite a bit which felt very different from, I mean, the, the queen was very, you know, regal and used antiquated language. And so that was sort of that contrast between how, what you expect a fairy to talk versus how most of them were speaking.

Ciel:

Yeah, I, when I created sort of the two Fae realms, I knew that there were a lot of ways in which I wanted, queen stuff and king Airy to stand out as old and, you know, very, like the oldest and wisest of their kind, et cetera, et cetera. and one of the things that I ended up settling on was giving them much more antiquated forms of language. Sef is more floral Aries a little more brutal, but they both do not use slang. You know, a lot of the other astro, you know, it's aint It's y'all, it's in it. It's, uh, a lot of stuff like that. And, it felt like a, a good character beat to exclude all of that from, the Canan Queens. General syntax and general vocabulary. I mean, they're old. They gotta sound old, right?

Lilly:

It others, them, they're even more othered than just being fairy. Yeah.

Ciel:

Yeah. And, and one of the other reasons I did it is that there's a lot of elements where I wanted Lucia to seem kind of like a version of what Sef might once have been like. A lot of Lusia you can see, like if Lucia had gone down the same series of paths as Sef, she could have ended up in the same place. And Luzi also does not use much slang. She doesn't use a ton of casual phrases. She's generally a lot more precise in her speech. So I wanted that mirror as well.

Lilly:

Absolutely. Well, we've clearly run up against the spoiler wall,

Sara:

I wanna talk about spoilers.

Ciel:

it's a big spoiler.

Lilly:

so before we keep going and dive into that part, Sarah, who should read this book?

Sara:

I mean, space Fae. Not, not if you, if you are a space Fae, you should read this book too. But if you like the concept of a sci-fi version of the Fae that does something fresh and new, both from a mythology perspective, but also from a, like a romantasy perspective I think this is gonna be a good book for you. And if you just like a survival sci-fi adventure set in a rundown megalopolis, like this is gonna be great. You'll have a, you'll have a good time with this book.

Lilly:

I just a note though, not that this book is romantasy, but if you've read a lot of Fae romantasy and you're like, I'm looking for not this for the 5000th time, then you'll like

Sara:

yeah, this, this book is, this book is not romantic, but romantic also tends to play with Fae tropes. And this does that in a different way.

Ciel:

Yeah. This, this is not like no hate to Sarah at jma. This is not that

Sara:

and I,

Ciel:

completely different flavor of of like mythology, of Fae, of fairy, of all of that. It's completely different, slightly to the left in space.

Lilly:

So if you're ready for that, if you're like, I have read 10,000 romantic books this year, I need something different.

Sara:

but I still want it to be Fae.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Ciel:

Yeah. If you still want some of it, I, but you don't want. the vibes of romantic, but you still want a little bit of the elements of Yeah. The fairy mythology. Yeah. Then this, this might be the book for you?

Sara:

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So speaking of like romantic tropes and Sarah J. Moss but general romantic too. I didn't think you would do this to me, but I was so worried that li Sander would turn out to be the asshole trainer, love, interest,

Ciel:

Oh.

Sara:

and, and not just, not just stay an asshole. And I was so glad.

Ciel:

That I can say this with absolute certainty. At literally no point in the entire process of conceiving writing, editing, and selling this book, has that ever once occurred to me as a possibility until the moment you said it that never even vaguely came up.

Sara:

I, I didn't, I didn't think he would do that to me, but like, you know, that's such a trope in like in, in these kinds of books or in the romantic kind of books that I was just, I was worried. I was concerned.

Ciel:

no. Now that you mention it, I'm like, in hindsight, I'm like, that makes sense as like a, a thing that could pop up 'cause it is a trope. But that literally at no point ever occurred to me. It never popped into my brain.

Lilly:

It is interesting how Fae mythology and fairies are at this current cultural zeitgeist so synonymous with romantic. Like They are one in the same right now. Not that they are throughout all of time, but it's just, yeah, you can't, you can't like totally get that out of your head when you're reading it, but.

Sara:

But also like the, the asshole trainer who turns into a love interest is not necessarily a Fae romantic thing specifically. Like you see that in Fourth Wing, for example.

Ciel:

A common like romance

Sara:

yeah. Yeah.

Ciel:

Yeah. No, that does not happen. That doesn't

Sara:

it does, it absolutely does not happen. And I was so glad that he just stays a dick the entire time.

Ciel:

Yep. He just stays an asshole.

Sara:

Yep.

Ciel:

He has, you know, like redeeming qualities, a little

Sara:

May maybe.

Ciel:

tiny, tiny bit. It's like, it's like 5% and the other 95% is asshole.

Lilly:

and he gets away with so much Queen Sef has. She kind of at, at the end acknowledges like, Hey, maybe I should have given him a single consequence. It's like, yeah, maybe you should have.

Ciel:

Yeah, there's definitely a sense to which Sef's relationship with Annie and Lysander is messy and complicated. And even though she's a very, just person in the sense of justice is blind. Very, like balancing the scales. there is an extent to which she at least, you know, as I was writing her and writing her actions, there is a slight extent to which she feels as though she owes Annie and thus, by extension kind of owes a little bit of leeway to Lysander. That again, he does kind of go, he goes too far at the end. Like he, he's very much, he does follow the letter of her law, not quite the spirit. And at, at the end when he really goes against the letter of her law is when it's like, nope, that is the, that is when the justice is blind. The scales need to be balanced. That is when that kicks in. And Sef is like, absolutely not. That was a direct. You directly disobeyed. You know, this isn't something where I can be like, there's wiggle room. This is fully something where it's like, this was black and white.

Lilly:

Which is ironic in a sense, because if she had reigned him in earlier, he might not have gotten to that point,

Ciel:

Yeah. You know, it, it is, but it, it's, it's, again, it's one of those things where I, I have characters throughout the book, I think, say this, where Sef isn't cruel, she's just heartless. So she has, I mean, literally as, As we find out but she isn't actively trying to make anyone's lives harder. She's actively trying to make their lives better. She's just not lovey-dovey about it. she doesn't know how to be. So with Lysander, there's definitely that extent to which she is trying to make him happy and fulfilled in life. in a way that, you know, like a rational human who's maybe been to therapy would not think is a, is a good solution at all. But to, to them and to Sef you know, the way she kind of gives Lysander some free reign is definitely a, a way in which her heartlessness expresses itself. And again, it really is. She's not cruel. She is just heartless. It's more like, yeah, she's not ruthless.

Sara:

a pejorative, it's just a

Ciel:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, 'cause I, I feel like so often, you know, there's the like, cruel, evil queen trope, and it's like Sef has a tiny bit of that, but it's not malicious. It's like. It's kind of its own version of Brutalism. Different from how the bastion is, but it's, it's sort of its own version of practicality. It's its own black and white.

Sara:

All of the troi become troi due to some kind of trauma. And they don't go to therapy. They just turn into these, you know, immortal beings.

Ciel:

Yeah. And then they do a lot of weed.

Sara:

yeah.

Ciel:

If they're, in the deep, it's so much weed. If they're in, like, if they're in the mist I honestly was not able to figure out exactly what they're smoking, but that there's a lot of vaping going on.

Sara:

Yeah. So they, instead of doing therapy, they just do a lot of drugs.

Ciel:

So many drugs. There's straight up just having a good time.

Sara:

Okay. So now that we're in the spoiler section I do wanna circle back to the question about if Lucia had asked for her contract, would they have let her read it?

Ciel:

I think they would. Oh God, that is such a difficult question because I don't think it ever occurred to Lucia to read her contract. Like I I don't think it would've been something she'd have thought of. I think they probably would've said like, oh, well there's nothing prohibiting you from reading your contract. But I don't think they would've like held her hand and walked her to where it is and explained how to access it. Like, I think they would've just been like, well, it's not illegal.

Sara:

If you, if you find it, you can read it. We're not gonna stop you, but we're not gonna

Ciel:

Or, yeah, like I, I think that's probably how it would've, how it would've gone down.

Lilly:

Oh man, she is absolutely thrown to the wolves in the sense of like social norms and rules with the Astra. That hit my anxiety every time she's trying to operate within their culture and she's just like flailing and doesn't know what their norms are. I was like, do stop. What are you doing?

Ciel:

Yeah, she, she is, her personality type is extremely at odds, the personality types of the averages. Rosie ironically again, she's closer to Sef than she is to most of the others personality wise. Even though, you know, Sef as Queen is, you would think is like, ah, she exemplifies everything that the Astro are. And she, she does not. And so Lucia is closer in personality to Sef than she is to most of the others, except she obviously doesn't understand the, wordsmithing of the astro that Sef very clearly has mastered.

Lilly:

And no one explains it to her. Lysander, of course not because he likes to see her struggle.

Ciel:

An asshole.

Lilly:

It, it amused me to no end that like it never occurred to Lucia to ask to see her contract. It never occurred to her to sit down and ask Annie like, so what's their deal?

Ciel:

Yeah, no, it, it, she, she misses, I think what we would view as obvious. Because she has, she's so overwhelmed in every, you know, all her senses are overwhelmed, her mind's overwhelmed that she never has the opportunity to get any perspective and to think about things in the same way that like an onlooker would think of. So all, a lot of this stuff just does not occur to her. She's too busy dealing with other types of anxiety and things that she views as more practical and immediate threats. But they're more external threats. They're not interpersonal issues. Those just don't come up to her as much.

Sara:

Speaking of things that didn't come up to her the tension that I felt as the reader of waiting for her to realize that time was passing differently in the bastion versus the deep, like she doesn't think about it. There, there are. Are hints left in the text and, and in dialogue that, that she has, but she doesn't recognize it. But anyone who knows anything about like Fae tropes is like, this is, this is coming. And I was waiting for like that full first half of the book for her to realize like, oh my God. Oh my God.

Ciel:

Yeah, that was, that was something where I knew that people who were well acquainted with Fae myths would pick up on it, and I knew that all I really had to do was leave a couple of like little bits of foreshadowing. I knew that if I laid it on heavy. It, the readers would not be happy with it. But yeah, I, I I was having a good time. Right in those bits of foreshadowing. But you know, if you don't know Fae tropes, that would not occur to you as a thing that's happening. And Lusia does not know Fae tropes by virtue of not existing in a world where there's fame, mythology as we know of it. And to the astro, they're immortal. They're unchanging. So it doesn't affect them. It literally doesn't. So it's not something that they would like think of mentioning. Like the only person who mentions it even slightly is Annie. And she doesn't like, she, she's unwilling to tell Lucia outright, like, I think Annie's line is just like, I briefly went back to the Bastion, but it wasn't my bastion. And you know, that's kind of like, yeah,'cause a shit ton of time had passed for, so it really was not the city she left. But you know, a reader who knows these tropes might pick up on that eia, does not know these tropes and is too busy concerned with things that she thinks are more immediate, even though they are not. Yeah, it was, it was fun to write and that was something I knew that was gonna happen very early on. again, you know, don't eat the food of the Fae, don't give the Fae your real name. I was like, yep, time is gonna pass differently there. That is how the trope works, and it is so good every time.

Lilly:

And then we even got some of the classic imagery, right? Queen Sef's bower is like under a hill that has a tree on it, which is very classic fairy. That was delightful.

Ciel:

Yeah, I was, I was having such a good time writing stuff like that because I'm a very visual writer. I'm, I'm also an artist for those of, for those listeners that haven't heard me be like, oh, I'm also an artist all the time. I'm also an artist, so I visualize a lot of scenes before I write them. And I know there are a lot of authors who work differently where they think of like the interiority and how that would be written out before they think of the visuals. But for me, I always think of the visuals first. So coming up with these, ways of bringing in, you know, like the bower, Sef bower bringing that into sci-fi was very fun for me.

Sara:

Okay,

Lilly:

quick. I have a stupid question. I know you're about to ask a good one, but I have a stupid one. Very early on, speaking of hints, very early on, there's the Icosahedron, which I had to look up and I'm embarrassed about. It's a D 20.

Ciel:

Is a D 20,

Lilly:

Is it just a total red herring or did I miss something?

Ciel:

it's a total red herring. It's a total red herring. It is just one of those pieces of like era one, bricka brack and it being a D 20 is ' cause it's a D 20 and that's just me throwing in a little bit of fun. Yeah, no, that, that is fully a red herring. It's, it's just something that Carrie and briefly thinks like might be the diamond. Because you know, they're like, man, literally there's so much era one trash, like littering around the place. It's kind of like, you know, like those those European countries that still have like landmines from World War II that are unexploded. And you're kind of just like, yeah, sometimes they just show up and like a bomb squad has to be called in to deal with it. That's kind of how a lot of like era one bricka brack is treated.

Lilly:

All right, Sarah, you can ask your good question now.

Sara:

Yeah. I I don't, I don't know if it's really a good question, but and it's not relevant to the story at all really. But it's something that I was wondering as I was reading it. Do you know how the first astro were created from the Terraforms? Or is that something where you figured, I knew they were, I don't know how, I don't need to know the details.

Ciel:

I, yes. So, basically when the terraforming ship, hi, we're in spoiler territory. When the

Lilly:

It's a spaceship. Ah.

Ciel:

Yeah, well, like when it crashed in my mind, so the, the way you become a STR is you basically have part of the terraforming device in your body. And the way the astro do it is they generally replace something like an organ or part of your skin or something like that. And in my head, how the first ones were created is they happened to be just like average workers near those terraforming devices. When the ship crashed, they were damaged in the crash and kind of just like splash damage, essentially terraforming splash damage. And that healed the injuries that they had sustained during the crash. And then they were like, Hey, if. We could fix some people with this, and then it went terribly from there on out. So that, that, that in my head is how the first OSI came to be. But that's not actually inherently, that's not anything the reader needs to know.

Sara:

I mean, it's, it's not, it's not relevant to the story at all.

Ciel:

yeah, it's not relevant and it was something where I never really found a good place to like sprinkle it in. Because, you know, as, as a writer you have so much more in your head, but you never wanna be like, anyway. Hello reader. Welcome to five Pages of me explaining things that happened like forever ago that aren't relevant now.

Sara:

there anything else that you, like any other cool idea that you had that you wanted to include but just couldn't find a good place for? I.

Ciel:

yes, I. Really wanted to include more of what happened to the original crew. Like the original, not, not like the C-suite, but like the command crew of the ship. We see a little bit of that. We see like a picture and like, the remnants of like an office plaque. We see a bit of that and I, I kind of wanted to include more about it, but I was just like, this, this isn't useful. It's not going anywhere. It, it would, it would, again, it would just be a few pages of me being like, here's what I, the author I have thought of that isn't important, but here you go.

Lilly:

Hey, isn't it neat?

Ciel:

Yeah, exactly. That. I, for all that I love Lord of the Rings. I don't write the Silmarillion. And the Silmarillion is, Hey, here's all the shit that wasn't in the book. It's literally a Bible. I, I, I actively try not to include any of that in my book because there's only one person who can do the Silmarillion, and it's not me.

Lilly:

And to be fair, the Silmarillion is not in the Lord of the Rings.

Ciel:

No, it is also not even though, let me tell you, a lot of the Lord of the Rings has like, by the way, let me explain some things, except oftentimes it's like, and then Tolkien decided to spend a page talking about how pretty a tree is, and you know, we love that for him. Apparently he was like that in real life. So good for him. He was consistent.

Lilly:

Speaking of trope, subversions and becoming Astro, our main character, Lucia goes through her crisis of finding out that she has outlived all of her relatives, and. We time skip a little bit, find out that she has her heart replaced and becomes heartless, similar to queen Sef. And then later she has the opportunity to take her heart back and she chooses not to, which was a fascinating journey. I think we're so primed to expect the, and then they fix it and everything's better. Quote unquote, better resolution from heroes.

Ciel:

Yeah. No, I think there probably was in my head early on some version of things where Lucia takes her heart back. But the more I wrote it, the more I realized that she just wouldn't like her. Her original anxiety would be. It's sort of too much, like she would have too many worries about like I. Why did I give up my heart? Like, why did I bargain this away? And in the end she kind of is like, I can't second guess past me constantly or else like, you know, I'll, I'll just be in a loop forever. So she ends up not giving it, not getting her heart back and just kind of being like, yeah, this is who I am now. I can't go backwards. I don't want to go backwards. I don't wanna know what I gave up. and I, I think we don't see that as often, but it felt very true to her character and it felt more true to the, the story as a whole. you know, 'cause like you said, so much of it is subversion and a different way of doing like a phase story. And I, I feel like if I had had her take her heart back, it would have been less of a subversion than I wanted it to. It would've felt more fairytale than I was writing. And again, it just didn't make sense for her character. It felt like better character growth for her to not take her heart back.

Lilly:

It's really genuine change instead of regression in that sense.

Ciel:

Yeah. Yeah. well, I mean, you know, I think we've used this in some marketing graphics and stuff, but one of the descriptions for the book is the ship of Theseus, but with people and you know, that that's kind of part of it. Like, she can't take back the original part of her body ship. Like it's gone. She's, she's moving on, she's something different now. So yeah, it, it was necessary for her to not take it back. And I, I think if I had made it so that she takes her heart back, it would've weakened the story as a whole and weakened her character.

Lilly:

Well, and it's, it's less, I'm gonna say less realistic. I know we're talking about fairies, but hear me

Ciel:

What you're telling me fairies aren't realistic? That's crazy.

Lilly:

Well, people do go through traumatic events that change them, and you can't go back and undo that, but you can like, make peace with who you are now and move forward. And so it feels a lot better in that way, like just to have her say like, no, this is who I am and I'm okay with it. Instead of like constantly trying to fix herself. Mm-hmm.

Ciel:

Yeah, like it, it the sort of undoing of what you've been through I think, you know, can work with some narratives but, did not work for this one. You know, a a lot of this is very, like, you cannot undo your actions. You can't take back what's been said. You can't undo a contract. Like once something happens to you, you have to go forward with that as it is. And yeah, no, it, it is something where, you know, trauma does change you. And, you know, oftentimes when you've been through something that really hurts, you want to be like, like if only I could go back in time by a week. If only I could go back in time by a month, then surely things would turn out differently. and you know, we, we can't, we can't time travel. That isn't what happens to people. You know, you heal and you move on, but you can't you know, go into your brain and like, dig out the piece of you that was hurt or dig out, you know, the trauma itself. That's, that's not how people work. That's not how life works.

Lilly:

So Lysander, thank goodness is not the love interest.

Ciel:

No, he's not.

Lilly:

However, we do get some delightful tension between Lucia and then as she becomes astro and becomes Ziane. Her second sort of persona or not persona, second self

Ciel:

Yeah. It, it's the, the Fae, take your name. So as, as asi she is, she is Ziane. She's not Lua. She has to get that new name. New name, new self.

Lilly:

but as both selves, she has some great tension with Kerian, who is kind of the antagonist throughout the book, but then also secretly the good guy all along.

Ciel:

Yeah. They are, they are the good guy. In the absence of better choices they, they don't do good things and they're definitely kind of fucked up. But, but

Lilly:

But they are trying to save the world. I feel like that gets you automatic good guy privileges.

Ciel:

it gets you a little bit of leeway.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Ciel:

They're just very bad at it.

Lilly:

Yeah. So there's some tension there. And then at the very end, they do kind of have a, I mean, they're, they care very much about each other by that point. They've been through quite a bit together. and so while there is, in that sense some romance in this book, you use a very light hand throughout the story. And I think that also is refreshing in a way. Like not, not every story needs to be like about the love that conquers all, even if I did like it.

Ciel:

I think the, the way I was sort of writing it, so if you've read Pride and Prejudice there's so many bits where Lizzie is just like, yeah, this guy just kind of hates me. And he's not, interested at all. But if you, if you read it in hindsight, you could totally see all the bits where Darcy is in the background. Like, oh my God, she's the perfect woman. I don't know what to do. and Lizzie's just completely oblivious to it. And in my head when I was writing this, there's an element. To that with Kerian where they are much more interested in Lua than she is consciously aware of. She's very much so, like, they are an antagonist. They are here to do bad things. And Kerian is like, damn, you're fascinating girl. Holy shit. What's going on with you? You free later today? And she's just like, yeah, they're, they're doing that just because I am in their way and they wish to stop me and that is exclusively it. Which is obviously not the case. But I, it was definitely something where I was writing it as like, they're much more into her from the beginning and not necessarily into, in a sexual way or romantic way or anything like that, but into, in sort of a, there's something fascinating going on inside your brain and I wanna figure out what it is and how it works. And Lucia is not aware of that in the way that perhaps a reader in hindsight might be, because again, the story told from her point of view, you know, the reader sees what she sees.

Sara:

I mean, I, I do think as the reader, it's pretty obvious that Kerian finds her fascinating. Again, like you say, not necessarily in a romantic way initially, but just in a, you think differently from anyone I've interacted with, you know, so far. So I, I do think that comes through, even if Lucia does not consciously recognize it.

Ciel:

Yeah. She, she does not.

Lilly:

I mean, they leave breadcrumbs, right? They're, they're actively not taunting her, but kind of trying to entice her.

Ciel:

Yes. Ab absolutely. You know, in the beginning there are very much the white rabbit to her Alice in Wonderland. And that, that kind of continues in many ways, except it is, you know, it's a little fucked up.

Sara:

I mean, it's probably for the best for their relationship that she as Zianne doesn't remember anything that happened.

Ciel:

Yeah, there, there's, there's a bit where she and Ian are talking, and Ian's like, a better person would tell you what I did to you, but I'm not a better person, so I'm not gonna,

Lilly:

She has the option to learn it all. She chooses

Ciel:

And she chooses not

Lilly:

Carrie respects that.

Ciel:

yeah. No, they, they, they you know, they fully respect the decision she makes. And they would've if she decided to keep her heart as well. But yeah, they, they aren't going to tell her ever.

Lilly:

And the fact that that benefits them is just gravy.

Ciel:

Yeah. They're not a better person. They, they are not the better person.

Sara:

are better than Lysander. So,

Lilly:

Yes.

Ciel:

But that's such a low bar. The bar's low, but yes, they are better than.

Sara:

so the ending of this book is quite open-ended. Was that always the case or did you ever have a version where the end with more concrete except didn't include concrete as we have talked about?

Ciel:

Yes, no concrete. There was a version where Carrie and dies permanently and it was more lu as than Ziane being forced to take up their mantle and carry on. And I ended up not doing that because I was like, nah, I don't wanna kill them.

Sara:

Despite the really good pun you just made.

Ciel:

Yeah, I know. but so that was a potential version. There was also a potential idea ending of like doing like a time skip epilogue where we find out more about how like terraforming has happened. But then I was like I don't, I don't like that. Also, the book was getting long enough as it was. So that was definitely out just for economy of words. But it, I felt like the open-ended ending was a good way to end a book where so much of the world building and plot revolves around the characters not actually knowing how the world works. I thought that giving too many concrete answers at the end wouldn't fit in as well. Thematically with the overall lack of knowledge of, you know, what lies beyond.

Lilly:

So don't tell us, but. Do you know then what they see when those doors open and they find out like what happens?

Ciel:

I have no idea. I have no

Lilly:

Okay.

Ciel:

I don't know. I mean, I, you know, eventually the planet gets terraformed. Eventually the Astro die out because it can't make any more astro. And you know, even though they are functionally immortal, you know, things can still kill them. So, you know, eventually the planet becomes fully terraformed and habitable and eventually the Astros are all gone. But that's so far down the line. Probably when they open the door, they see exactly what was what left behind. Because terraforming doesn't work instantly. It's not that fast.

Lilly:

For all of the mystery at the end, it still definitely felt optimistic.

Ciel:

Yeah.

Lilly:

heroes have accomplished their goal, like they are successful. And now it's just a matter of seeing what that actually means.

Ciel:

Yeah, I did not. I think that was, again, one of the reasons why I decided not to end it with Carrie and dying is'cause I, I didn't want to end it on a depressing note, there's a lot of depressing shit in this book. I didn't wanna end it on a sad note too. I wanted to end it with a little spark of hope. You know, you're going into the unknown, but it's not all fear.

Lilly:

I mean, even when you think like, yeah, Lucia does outlive her family, but her family like lives long and prospers.

Ciel:

They don't like die tragically. Yeah, she missed it, but it's not like, oh, she was gone and then they were all killed by an ax murderer or whatever. Like they live out long, happy lives.

Sara:

I mean, it's a, a tragedy for her. It's not necessarily a tragedy for them in that sense.

Ciel:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, they would go through the tragedy of losing a family member that they care about, but they wouldn't be going through the same degree of abandonment tragedy that she does.

Lilly:

Well, I think that about wraps up what we have for you this evening. Thank you so much for joining us. It has been a delight. Loved the book. can't wait to hear what crazy thing you have for us next.

Ciel:

So I got so tentatively, tentatively I'm, I'm still in the process of pitching it to my agent, even though she sounds enthusiastic, potentially a lit RPG.

Sara:

Oh.

Ciel:

I love video games. I love lit RPGs. I have been a fan of them for like, easily over a decade, except mostly it's been like manga and man and light novels and anime and stuff. It's only very recently come to the West, so I'm like, yes, let me write a lit. RPGI love them. I love video games. I play them a completely normal amount. yeah, so Lid, our pt, hopefully, fingers crossed.

Sara:

That's exciting. And I am still living in hope for a sequel to the Hunter's Gambit. I don't know if that's gonna happen, but I, I'm living in hope still.

Ciel:

So, Hypothetically, hypothetically if, you know, I got offered a chance to do like a sequel to Hunter's Gambit, but it wouldn't be a thing like you know, what I have planned in my head I would just not do it. I would just not take that deal.'cause for me, it's more important to treat the work as I think it should be treated and do what I think is best for the world and the characters and the narrative than it is for me to just produce a sequel. So,

Sara:

that's absolutely valid. I respect that, and I hope that you get the opportunity to write the sequel that you want.

Ciel:

Yeah, I've, I've definitely gotten a lot of comments from people about, you know, hoping through a sequel

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a standalone book. It doesn't need a sequel. I just want one.

Ciel:

Oh yeah. I mean, I do too, right? I, I love vampires. Let me write more vampires, like, come on. Come on, man.

Lilly:

Well, is this book out? I should have looked that up before we

Ciel:

This book comes out on the 23rd of September. So we are recording on the 17th, which means it comes out next week. But for listeners it's presumably already out. Go buy it.

Sara:

It Yes. Yes.

Ciel:

Yeah, it came out yesterday, guys. We're reporting from the future. It came out yesterday. Go purchase it. It's available anywhere books are sold, including the internet,

Lilly:

Yes.

Ciel:

which is where most books are sold these days.

Lilly:

yeah. And if someone wants to follow you for updates on maybe future projects or whatever you're doing, can you plug your, your website social

Ciel:

Yes. I am on Blue Sky at Ciel Pierlot which is, I, I'm very, very basic. My name is all my handles. I'm at Blue Sky. I predominantly post more business-y stuff there. So announcements, for example. I'm also on Instagram also at Ciel Pierlot. I post a lot more promotional stuff there. I post more stuff about my own life there, you know, the occasional story. So Instagram is a better place to find me if you want more personal stuff, more cool pretty pictures. Blue Sky is a better place to find me if you just want the business highlights. And then I have my website, which is also conveniently enough, cielpierlot.com. And mostly what I have there is summaries of my work where you can find my work, reviews, that sort of thing. That is where I am. That is what is there.

Sara:

Awesome.

Lilly:

Thank you so much.

Ciel:

Thank you for having me.

Sara:

This has been as always a pleasure.

Ciel:

Yeah. I always love coming on your guys' podcast. Thank you for having me. And hopefully I'll.

Sara:

Yes. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!