Fiction Fans

Author Interview: Dot Slash Magic by Liz Shipton

• Episode 203

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Your hosts speak with Liz Shipton, author of Dot Slash Magic, about technology based magic, writing storylines just to be contrary, and creating both spicy and sanitized versions of a story. Also, dick magic.

Find more from Liz:

https://lizshipton.com/

https://instagram.com/lizshiptonauthor

https://www.tiktok.com/@lizshiptonauthor

https://bsky.app/profile/lizshiptonauthor.bsky.social

Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah and I am so pleased to welcome author Liz Shipton onto the podcast to talk about her new book slash magic.

Liz:

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Sara:

Yeah, we're

Lilly:

much for joining us.

Sara:

we're excited to have you. I.

Lilly:

Before we get into book talk though, we do have a, a little five minute introduction starting with what's something great that happened recently. Liz, do you have an answer or should I pick on Sarah?

Liz:

Yeah, I do. So this week we it's called splashing. We splashed our boat back into the water. we live on a boat and it's been hauled out in a boat yard for the last like month while we do like projects on it. So we've been like painting the bottom and fixing a bunch of stuff and working on the motor. And yesterday the boat went back into the water and we are like moved back onto it and yeah, it feels really good to be. To be back.

Lilly:

That's wonderful. Congratulations.

Liz:

Thanks.

Sara:

it's really cool that you live on a boat, I think. I think that's just neat.

Liz:

It's it's an interesting life for sure. Yeah.

Lilly:

Well, we definitely have more questions about that, but we're gonna save that for the, the more relevant book conversation. Sarah, how about you? What's something great that happened

Sara:

Something great that happened recently is, so back in May, I adopted a third pug who is very traumatized by her first family. And, I have been working on getting her used to me touching her front paws so that I can like wipe them off and do things like that. And she now lets me, and I'm very pleased.

Lilly:

Oh, good for

Liz:

Yay. That's a, that's a big step.

Sara:

Yes, yes. It, you know, when I first got her, she would try to bite me if I touched her front paws, so it lots of,

Lilly:

sometimes.

Sara:

wouldn't, she didn't succeed in bit me when I was touching her paws. She just bites me at other times.

Lilly:

That's a big caveat. tempted to say that my good thing is that we've managed to get this recording set up because listeners, there has been some technical difficulties. But other than that it's kind of silly, but our local kind of farmer's market thing has something that they call a dreamsicle melon, and it is the best melon I have ever had. It's a summer melon. The skin is really thin. I think it's technically a type of honeydew, but like so sweet and so tender. And I'm obsessed with these melons now.

Liz:

sounds delicious.

Lilly:

It is like really good. I'm such a sucker for being upsold there. Whenever they're like, you wanna try this? I'm like, yes. It's never proven me wrong. So what is everyone drinking for this recording? I have coffee. It is kind of morning still.

Liz:

I actually don't have a drink in hand currently, however, if I was, it probably would be soda water with lime and bitters. That's kind of like my, my go-to drink, unless it's morning time and then it's coffee.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I am gonna have to try adding bitters to soda water. That's, that sounds really interesting.

Liz:

It is really good if you can get the ratio of bitters to lime Right. It's, it's so refreshing. And like if you drink it just so, so cold. Oh yeah. It's the best.

Sara:

Sounds perfect for a hot day.

Liz:

Yeah.

Sara:

I am currently drinking some green tea.

Lilly:

Lovely. And this is actually a book podcast. So other than slash Magic, which we're about to discuss at quite a bit of length has anyone read anything good lately?

Liz:

I just finished Yellowface by RF Kwang, which I know is so old and I should have already read it a long time ago, but I didn't, and I just read it and it, I loved it. I, I probably shouldn't have read it the month before my first trad publishing launch It's like so in depth into like the publishing industry and like everything that can go wrong, and I'm just like now filled with anxiety about my book launch. it was great. It was a good book.

Lilly:

Yeah, I've heard good things. I also haven't read it, so there's so many books and so many new ones come out every year. How can I keep up,

Sara:

it's, it's really rude of authors to keep writing books that I want to read. I, I just, it's, it's an personal attack.

Lilly:

I really have just been like nose to the grindstone in DOT slash magic for the last week or so. So that's basically all I have going on in my head.

Liz:

Nice.

Sara:

I have gone back to the revised edition of Tolkien's Letters, but because of the nature of that, like I'll read a letter and then not read anything for like, you know, a week. So I read, I read one letter. And that counts.

Lilly:

It does count. Well, we teased this a little bit at the beginning, but Liz, you live on a boat and our main character seven also well, does quite a bit of sailing and lives on a boat while she goes to community college near the beginning of this book. Can you tell us a little more about how, like your personal experience informed that aspect of her character?

Liz:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, all my main characters are, I sort of have this like running joke with my readers that all my main characters are just thinly veiled versions of me. And sometimes the veiling is very, very thin. So, yeah, seven moves on to her uncle's old sailboat that's kind of like rotting away in a harbor in San Diego that her parents have sort of been maintaining for him. And the mainly the reason she does this is that like San Diego and California in general, the housing market is very expensive. Like she

Sara:

It just sucks. I mean, I live in, I live in California, so.

Liz:

Right. And like, so that was sort of drawn a little bit from our life.'cause like, so my partner Trev and I. Both grew up primarily in California and in Santa Cruz, California. And part of what motivated us to buy the boat and pursue this life was the housing market in California was looking at, at, at the situation in Santa Cruz. Whereas this, I think it's literally the most expensive place in the United States. I just saw something recently. It's, it's just crazy. And it was like, yeah. You know, yes, maybe we could probably afford to buy a house there, you know, but to what end? And we felt like we would just be working for our mortgage and always struggling and always underwater, no pun intended. And so, you know, there were many, many factors that went into us deciding to move onto the boat and pursue this life, but that was one of them. Um. So, yeah, when it came time to write the book you know, that was, that was just like something I wanted to slip in there, I guess.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

So does that mean that you also have some kind of coding background if, if seven has a lot of you in her?

Liz:

Yeah. So I, I also have a lot of theater and music background, so I grew up playing music and doing theater. I actually got my degree in theater from uc, San Diego. I also went to community college in Santa Cruz in my hometown. I went through the music program there and basically like throughout my. You know, twenties, I was a musician. I was teaching music privately to little kids mostly. And then I was gigging with a couple of like, cover bands. This was all in San Diego. And and I had a couple of my own bands, like a jazz funk, soul band, and a ska band. And I was doing that whole thing for, for a long time, probably like 10 years out of high school through college and through sort of the end of my twenties. And then I basically got to the end of my twenties and. Trav, my partner and I had decided we wanted to do this boat thing, at which point I was like, well, we're gonna need some money probably, and there isn't really any in music. So I taught, I started teaching myself to code and this was like around 2016, 2015, 2016. When like. There was a big push in the United States particularly to like, everyone's gonna code, like, you know, we can all code and that's the future. And, and they were really hiring engineers and they were pushing these like coding bootcamps. And so I kind of saw that and I was like, well, that's money. There's money there. I'll try that. So I taught myself to code enough to the point that I could get into a coding bootcamp. And then I went into a coding bootcamp in San Francisco called Hack Reactor, which was like. One of the most intense, gnarly experiences of my life. It was like three months of, I mean, like 16 hours a day, six days a week of just coding and like, your brain is on fire. And I think the first two weeks I was there, I don't think I really slept like at all. And I was crashing on my friend's couch in Oakland at the time, who's also a, a musician. He's like a punk guy. And yeah, just, I mean, it's a, it's a blur, you know. But it worked. I, I came through that program and I got out on the other side and I was hired by a startup at Silicon Valley. I worked there for a few years, and then I ended up working a friend of mine quit that company to start her own company, a startup in Silicon Valley. And I was actually the first engineer that she hired. For better or worse I was not an amazing engineer. Like that's, I wanna make that very clear. I was fine. You know, I, I feel like I spent five years tricking Silicon Valley into paying me, you know. Or is that just imposter syndrome? I don't know. But yeah, so that's, that's kind of my, my coding background. And that's where a lot of that stuff in the book was, was pulled from.

Lilly:

And so I actually. Have a couple of follow up questions for both you and Sarah, because my coding background is zero. Like absolutely nothing. However, this book was still really accessible. The, the coding that we see in the story that our main character is doing is all, like, pretty well explained or, or telegraphed in a way that I didn't need to know what was going on in order to follow it.

Liz:

To hear.

Lilly:

Sarah on the other hand, has much more experience than I do, and I'm so curious how that changes

Liz:

Oh, no. Now you're gonna tell me all the ways in which

Lilly:

No,

Sara:

no, no, no, no, no, no. Not at all. But, but I'm currently working as a software engineer, so it was fun to, to like see these little bits of, of code. I was like, oh, this is an intersection of my interests that don't necessarily intersect all that often.

Liz:

Great. Yeah, I, I. I definitely, I wanted to put in some, well, you're, you're a pro, you are a coder, you know, that like, we really love to like, hide Easter eggs in things. I feel like that's like a coding thing

Sara:

Yes.

Liz:

do. And so I wanted there to be a few little, like, bits like that for coders where if you're a coder, you go, ha, I, I, I know that. Or, you know, like,

Sara:

Yeah.

Liz:

like I see that.

Sara:

And like you, I don't, I, I think I'm middle of the road. My company seems to be happy and they, they pay me well. So that's all that matters. But but yeah, I was like, oh, I know this thing.

Liz:

oh, that's awesome. That's great.

Lilly:

And then I'm over here going, Ooh, a dragon in asci,

Liz:

Yes. Which a reader asked me, actually, they were like, did you make that? And I was like, yeah. Meaning yes, I used it online like thing to create it for me. But she was like, wow, you, how long did that take? I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I did not. Spend hours placing every little.to create that picture.

Lilly:

It was really cool though because, well, as the title of the book might suggest, dear listener, there is magic not just coding in this story. And it was really fun seeing that combination in a way that, I don't know, I, I really love that sort of two, what feels like very desperate things. Disparate things being combined. It was, it was neat.

Liz:

Yeah, I, I like that blending as well. In the last series I wrote, which was like a dystopian water world series, there's tech, there's a lot of tech stuff in that as well. It's not, there's no like coding or anything, and it doesn't really get into the tech, but it's more like the world is governed by this like evil tech corporation.

Lilly:

And in water world you are from California.

Liz:

Yeah. There's no magic in that series, but like I sort of made the tech feel a little bit like magic and so I think I kind of just like, I mean like I come, you know, somewhat from the tech world, so I think it's sort of like inevitably going to end up being a part of whatever I do.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Liz:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Well, so then in your personal opinion, do you consider this book fantasy sci-fi? Like what I, I know genre is very personal for everybody, so like, no wrong answer, but

Liz:

What I've been saying is urban fantasy. I think that's probably the closest you know that it is. Everything I write ends up being dystopian at least a little bit because probably just'cause I'm a pessimist at heart. And I live on a boat, like, what are you gonna do? out here, off grid. So there's definitely dystopian elements in the book. I like to say cyberpunk because it sounds cool, but I don't actually know if the book is cyberpunk. It's probably more fantasy than cyberpunk.

Lilly:

I would personally put it more fantasy than cyberpunk.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I think urban fantasy for me feels right.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. I was, all up on my, you know how every reader has their own like weird personal shit they bring to a book? I can't stand overbearing parents. And so we, we start this book and seven is having a phone conversation with her mother who is kind of. Giving her what for about her life choices. And I was so ready to be so mad until it's revealed that all of this was about a boy. And then I was like, oh, okay, mom. Yeah. Kick her in the ass. She needs it.

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, again, Finley veiled versions of me. My mom is an absolutely wonderful, amazing, incredible human being. So I wouldn't say that the character of Mom is, you know, I think every mother and daughter relationship is going to have a little bit of that. I think, and I will say I'm like so nervous for my mom to read the book because like the character of Mom doesn't come across. Super great in chapter one, but later I feel like she really comes back strong and like mom and seven have a really great moment. And like, then we also peel back a little bit of like mom's layers and so not that my mom would ever DNF my book, but like, I wanna be like, mom, keep reading. Just get past chapter one. It's not you, I swear. Like,

Lilly:

Oh, actually, it's definitely a spoiler conversation, but. There are, there are some things introduced at the beginning of this book that you flip quite dramatically, and I'm so curious. I shouldn't have even brought it up. I

Sara:

you sh nope. you

Lilly:

I cannot ask yet.

Sara:

We have to save that conversation for the spoiler section. So this book does have some spicy sex scenes in, in it. And you mentioned in the beginning that if someone who has purchased the book wants to read it without the sex scenes, you have a, like a sanitized version, has anyone ever taken you up on that offer?

Liz:

So for as far as this book as it hasn't been launched, I don't know how popular that will be, but so for my previous series, the Scholastic series, the Dystopian Water World one, I offer two versions of the series. So there's two complete. Separate versions. There's a YA edition and then there's an NA edition and the ya is No Spice. The characters are like 17. And then the NA edition is, they're aged up by a few years and there's spicy scenes in it. And the, the spicy version is a thousand times more popular like. cause mostly I market on book talk and that's like most people on book talk want that. Which is why I wrote it. But people do, I have for, for a long time I was running two versions of my mailing list where I had like a, a spicy mailing list and a ya mailing list and I would send out two slightly altered versions of the same email every month. At this point that's gotten a little bit hard to manage. I don't recommend writing two completely separate versions of your series because like it wasn't. It wasn't the writing that was hard because really all I did was added the spicy scenes into the to the new adult version of the series. But all the covers. And anytime you wanna make a change in any of the books, especially because the series is nine books long, so it's actually 18 books that if I ever wanna like change the front matter or upload a different version to Amazon, it just becomes a nightmare of like, I gotta upload 18 versions of this thing now. So yeah, don't do what, don't do what I do. I do like having the two versions though because, so for me, I actually pref, I'm actually kind of a no spice reader. When I first. Started writing, I intended for the Philas series to be a YA series and it wasn't until I got corrupted by book talk that I decided to write the, the spicy versions. So for me, like having that other version is important and I don't think the book is like lacking for it. Do you know what I mean? Like you can read the book without that and you can like fade to black or whatever. And I think there's. In DOT slash magic. There's one thing, one small detail that you won't get in if you read the, the no spice version, but it's, it doesn't, it's not crucially, crucially important to like any of the plot twists or anything. But yeah, I, I like having those versions. We'll, we'll see. Time will tell how popular the, the no spice version is.

Lilly:

That's interesting. I, I feel like reading a book is so easy to self-censor.'cause you can kind of just skim if you get to a part that you're not into. And I guess even skimming a spicy scene is interacting with it more. But like, if there's, it's different with a movie, right? Like you can't skip forward or it's much more difficult to but books like you can kind of go, oh, a torture scene, not feeling it right now. You know, like, let's just get to the end of that. Which is like one of the really, I would say great things about reading over other media.

Liz:

Yeah, that's true. I dunno. See, I think I'm maybe a kind of person that just the, the thought of skipping something. Just wouldn't occur to me. I think I would just read, even if I was like, oh God, this is so brutal. I can't, but like, that's the point of the book, right? Like, I don't know. I, for me, I just don't think it would even enter my mind that like, oh, you could skip this part for me. It would be like, Nope, you gotta, this is what it's about. You gotta, you gotta do it. Like get through it.

Sara:

I, I think going back to what you said about there being one scene in one of the sex scenes, that's, and I'm gonna kind of talk around it a little bit because it is a bit of a spoiler. But it does, it's interesting to me how not having that does kind of change or I, I would imagine it would kind of change the reveal of that aspect that that happens later on. So it's, it's interesting. I feel like it's, it would be interesting navigating those two different versions.

Liz:

Yeah, I think so. It's definitely like, I actually think I was talking about something slightly different than you were talking about. There's so many reveals that happen

Sara:

there's, there's, yes.

Liz:

There's like plot twist, some plot twist. So. Yes. I think what, for what you're talking about, I think the impact is certainly lessened by the removal of those scenes and, and particularly for like. The way that that reveal is done, where it's literally like we hear echoes of things that he has literally said, you, they don't all get said in the, in the no spice version. So it's just not, it's definitely not gonna hit quite as hard. But I think having had like faith to black and having like, you're still referencing sex, it's still like, oh yeah, we know these characters have had sex. Like, and certain, certain things in the book are still kind of, are left in, so I think you're correct. Like it's, it's not gonna be as impactful, but you'll still get the reveal, if that makes sense.

Lilly:

Yeah. Well, I think we have to get to the spoiler section because we're dancing pretty hard around it here.

Sara:

are, there are, there are just, oh, there are so many reveals at the end of this book that I just, that I wanna talk about.

Liz:

It's almost too many.

Lilly:

Yeah. So before we, we do get to that Sarah, who should read this book?

Sara:

You should read this book if you are a millennial who likes technology and magic and magical technology and also sex scenes where the dude uses magic to make his dick bigger. But you don't have to read that if you don't want to because there is this San Sanitized version.

Lilly:

But if that is you, this would be a great book for you.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I, I am the trash romance reader who's like. Give, give it, give me all the sex scenes. So I appreciated it.

Sara:

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So you mentioned that there were a lot of reveals. There are a lot of reveals. I was reading this book and I had to put it down right at the moment where seven realizes that dot her magical AI that she has created actually was the behind the the monsters coming. And I was like, oh man, this is the worst place to put it down. Like. Because I think my, my pasta water was boiling or something. I was like, this is the worst place to put it down. And then I made pasta and, and came back to the book and kept reading and there were more reveals and I was like, oh, thank God I didn't have to put it down at this point.

Liz:

You're like, oh no, and then you realize that it's actually just like the top of the rollercoaster hill and that actually what's about to happen is we're gonna just spend like six chapters just careening through like plot twists. Yeah.

Sara:

Yeah, I think I, I blew through the last, like, 200 pages of this book in one evening.'cause I was like, I can't, there's, there's so much going on. I can't put this down.

Liz:

Well that's, I hope that's a good thing. I don't like, I honestly dunno. I feel like writing this book, I got to a point where I was like, this is either awesome or this is just like the semi coherent ramblings of a person, slowly losing her mind. And I don't know which it is yet. I guess we'll find out when people read it.

Lilly:

But you dropped hints though. Like we got little references to the matrix from almost the very beginning, so that felt like. I did not see it coming in any sense of the word, but I didn't feel like, where the hell did this come from? When it did

Liz:

Right. So I mean, I, so you know, the, so the literary device that you know is used is basically like a d SX Macina where she dies and then we wind, wind up in the matrix basically, or I'm

Lilly:

Or out of the matrix.

Liz:

And so I kind of like using that. I know that there's a sort of feeling about it, that it can be a cheap trick or like an easy way out or like, oh, and then she woke up from the dream and everything was fine, and I really, really didn't want it to be that because, you know, obviously that's really stupid. And also people would've just ripped me to pieces for it. So, you know, there had to be a lot of threads that connected both sides together. And I wanted it to be a little bit like, like if you, if you go back and read this book for a second time, I want you to write from the jump, be like, oh. I didn't notice that before, but now I know that this is going to right. Like so I kind of wanted it to be the kind of book that you could potentially read for a second time and still kind of be getting stuff out of it, if that makes sense.

Sara:

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, even though yes, there is a little bit of that aspect of it was all a dream. A as she comes out of the, the ai there's still impact there because her choices like make a difference. They matter. And like there are consequences. Alicia's super mad at seven. Because seven has had this time to process and start to view Alicia as a friend and Alicia's like, girl, you didn't care about me at all when, when we were in this ai. And like Kurt doesn't have his memories, that was heart wrenching.

Liz:

Oh, good.

Sara:

I was like, how could you do this?

Liz:

Because that way in book two, I can have them fall in love all over again from the very beginning.

Lilly:

Ooh, you, so you answered that question before we had a chance to ask it.

Liz:

Sorry. Spoiler alert, I'm hoping, I'm hoping to do a book two.

Lilly:

yeah. It felt, it felt both like this was a fully complete story. Like I didn't end it going really a fucking cliffhanger. Great. You know, there was none of that. But I was definitely like. But then what happens?

Liz:

cool. Great. That's good. I'm, because I, you know, a lot of my books have sort of ended on cliffhangers. Almost every book in the classic series is basically a cliffhanger. And so I wanted to not do that, but, but I do definitely have a lot of ideas for a book two and a book three. And so yeah, I'm hoping, I'm hoping to continue the series.

Sara:

Fingers crossed.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Liz:

Yes. Yeah.

Lilly:

This book starts with seven defending AI extensively. We get several lectures from her professors about the ethical use of ai. This is a very unusual stance for art communities to take. Has, well, I guess there haven't been a ton of readers yet. It's not out yet that this is my DNF question. If someone hasn't read the end where you flip that completely around. I have, have you had any reactions to that at all yet? Or is

Liz:

I haven't yet. I do have this sort of like existential dread that my fear is that someone is going to think that I used AI to write the book. That's the like backlash that I'm fearing that some uninformed person who hasn't actually read it, it's gonna have some like hot take, which I, I don't know. I, I hope that doesn't happen, but we'll see. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I know that Caroline, I think you guys know Caroline from Angry Robot said that her partner, husband, whoever read it, and that the whole time he was kind of going like. But what about the ai? Like you're not talking about AI really, you're not saying anything. And then at the end like that, those last like three chapters made him basically be like, oh yeah, nevermind. This book was great and I loved it so much. So yeah, you're totally right. There could be issues with people. DN fing it, but like I'll just defend it. I'll just defend the book on on like if you DNF the book and you're gonna come and have some opinion like, no, sorry, you D nfd it, you don't actually know. And I will get on TikTok and I will defend it to the very end.

Sara:

I

Liz:

really all I can do, you know.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

like you do, like, like you said, those last couple of chapters come down hard on it, so like There is a statement being made there. It's, it's just not one that seven is making because seven, or at least not in the beginning, because seven is, you know, a character, not, not the author.

Liz:

Yeah. So to be completely honest seven's. I think by the end seven probably is sort of seeing that and, and in book two we'll probably dig into that a lot more. But a lot of the reason that I started out with seven being pro AI was because I kind of like to be a little bit of a devil's advocate and like a little bit contrarian and seeing so much pushback against AI from like author communities on book talk and, and things like that. I was just sort of tired of seeing it. I was like, okay, yeah, we've all heard this. Take AI is bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I actually wanted to write a book that was like pro AI just to be an asshole. I'm really glad I didn't. But then like as I was researching for the book, so I read a book called The Atlas of AI by, oh God, I'm forgetting the name of the author, but it's in the back of the book. There's a reading list in the back. And that book is, is listed there. And as I was reading that book, basically about just how extractive it is and how exploitative and really learning like. Basically just learning about it more. I kind of realized like, nah, you know, writing a, writing a pro AI book doesn't actually really sound like all that much fun. And I think my own opinions on it were shaped during the writing of the book. So that like by the end I was like, yeah, this is pretty bad. And I should probably say that.

Lilly:

Well, it's interesting too when, when Sarah and I were putting notes together for this, it's so hard to have a, like, coherent conversation because everyone calls everything AI now, you know? And, and your book does a really good job of, we're talking about large language models, we're talking about generative ai. When everything from like machine learning to spell check is called ai. It's just really hard to actually have a coherent conversation. And part of my tinfoil hat is like, is that on purpose? Are they like muddying the phrase so that it's hard to come on with a stance either way, I don't know. But

Liz:

Yeah, because I mean, if you think about like, you know, the, the other applications of AI in terms of like it working on a cure for cancer and there are so many good things that it could be used for. And I, you know, I guess that's sort of the point that I'm making in the book is like, it's not really about we need to shut it down or whatever. It's more about like we need to regulate it and we need the right people in charge of it. And, yeah, because you're right, it is, it's sort of difficult to take a stance when the companies that are currently in charge of it. It's not, it's not the technology, right. It's the people behind the technology that are the, the problem.

Lilly:

Yeah, and you can't even talk about like, well, okay, then how do you do it? Right? Because it's just so the whole

Liz:

And a lot of what is, a lot of what is like advertised as AI today is, is not at all. It's, I mean, it's literally like, you know, people powering it. And I mean, I didn't even really, I feel like this book, it's like one of the problems with writing about AI is that it is moving so fast that like you, by the time you publish a book, it's like you're already behind. So there's that like, worry about like, book two is like, how am I going to like, possibly keep up with what's actually happening?

Lilly:

So when I was reading this book so if anyone has stumbled into this before they've read it there's an idea that people who use magic need to have a conduit to perform their magic through and kind of focus it. And it's always typically it's an some kind of art. I thought for sure that seven's conduit was going to be. Coding, like the act of coding, which is in a creation, in a sense. She is making something. And then that ends up not being the case and it goes down this, the, the AI rabbit hole. But I was ready for that. Like computer creation is still creation, which would be a fascinating conversation to have

Liz:

That was, that was actually what I was intending to do originally. And then I don. Really remember exactly why I decided not to go that route. But I think part of it actually had to do with okay, stay with me here. Getting on book talk and creating those comedy videos that I make that like the ones that went viral that everyone, you know, really enjoys and realizing Up until that point, I, I had never had any inclination that, like anyone thought I was funny in any way. That was like a. Like what kind of crazy reveal and that those videos I was making, I started making them right around the same time that I started writing the book. And so realizing that like that was part of my voice, I started incorporating that into the book and the book became much funnier as a result of those videos. I think personally, I think it's like quite funny in places. And so I just started thinking a lot about humor and comedy and how. People would, would message me on Instagram saying things like, I had a really shitty day, or I had a really tough week, and then I saw your video and it made me laugh and really brightened my day and thank you so much. And that was like kind of the first time that I had ever really felt. Like my art had actually done something good in the world because up until that point, like writing, yes, you write a lot of books and like it kind of feels a lot of the time, like you're just like, mm-hmm. Saying your shit at people, and like, listen to me, look at me. Aren't I great? Blah, blah, blah. And, and it doesn't always feel like you're really doing anything important or helpful or useful. So when people started telling me, you know, I, I've enjoyed your videos, and it actually. Made my day better. All of a sudden I started thinking about the value of like, humor and telling jokes and like just, you know, that kind of dumb funny aspect of life. And I wanted to make the book a little bit, I don't know, kind of like a tribute to that or have that be a theme in the book because it kind of does end up that like dot the, the, the way that dot, learned how to lie was through jokes, right? So on the one hand, comedy was sort of like the downfall, or like humor was sort of like the downfall. It was like the thing that really unraveled everything and, and did all the bad stuff. But on the other hand like Kurt says, you know, making you laugh was the only good thing I ever did, or whatever it is that he says as he's dying.

Lilly:

Whatever that super romantic and emotional line was, you know, read the book.

Liz:

shit was that I wrote. And then later on, seven realizes that her magic moment was just making him laugh. And I just liked that simplicity first of all, of like, it doesn't have to be some huge great achievement. It doesn't have to be some beautiful artistic thing. It can just literally be as simple as making someone laugh. And so. Yeah. On the one hand it's like the communi, the human connection part of that is important, I think thematically. And then also just the purely the comedy part of it I think is also important thematically and also like, to me and, and sort of what I'm trying to say and, and how I feel about the world.

Lilly:

Well, and it, it's so interesting how. What we've end up finding out is the, the fake propaganda version of magic is like, almost like a forced productivity. Like the only thing that's worth doing is something that makes something, and art is good. I'm not trying to say that it's not. But the idea that you're not using your time valuably if you're not making something,

Liz:

That's interesting. I actually hadn't even really thought of it in terms of like a productivity thing, but that's, yeah, you're totally right. That is definitely. That is definitely a way to read it. I think what I was sort of going for a little bit was the way that social media companies have kind of co-opted art as content.

Lilly:

Yes. Yeah.

Liz:

So like you get outside of the network and you realize like this is, you're literally channeling all of that beautiful energy and all of that power and all of that magic just into a machine that is just enriching these companies. And to be totally honest, that is how I feel on TikTok because, I mean, this is like getting a little in the weeds, but like, because I live on this boat and because I live in Central America, my TikTok account is registered in Mexico and I cannot change. I've tried so hard, I cannot change it back to the United States. So I make no money on my videos. I'm not eligible for the creator funds, so I'm like racking up millions and millions of views for these apps and making, I mean, not nothing because obviously, you know, it sells my books and I get lovely messages from people telling me, you know, how they enjoyed my videos. But financially I, it's like, What

Sara:

I mean, tick TikTok is profiting off of your content.

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. And so that is a little bit, kind of what I was trying to, to do a little bit with the, with the whole, like art being a conduit, powering the network type type of thing.

Lilly:

absolutely. I, I threw a tantrum and stopped using TikTok back in, you know, February when that whole, whole thing happened. Yeah, it is like, I don't know. And it is wonderful to share art and the internet and social media. Give us a platform to do that, but at the same time, does art have value, even if it is just for yourself? There's a lot of good questions there. I don't have the answer, but yeah.

Sara:

So near the end of the book there's a quote about how seven has been kind of like backwards, rebelling to kind of tie into this discussion about art. You know, she goes into computer science instead of music. And the. Whole book is a little bit like that. It felt with these comments about how art is the only path pursuing except that then you kind of flip that around again at the, at the very end where we find out that yeah, the, the art has been f feeding back into the machine and empowering the machine. Can you talk a little bit about flipping that concept.

Liz:

I wanted to do that a lot with the book actually in general. So like, I think I mentioned before, I like to play devil's advocate a little bit. I'm sort of just like a bit of a dick at heart. And I want to do things the opposite of what everyone else is doing. That's why I live on this boat. I wanted to like, play with tropes for one thing, right? So I wanted to kind of take these fairly recognizable, like romantic tropes and I wanted to like flip them a little bit because as much as I love book talk and as much as I love the community and as much as I am so grateful to have been like so. Welcomed with like open arms by these people who I'm sort of just poking fun at their favorite genre. But like everyone has such a great sense of humor about it and everyone's like, yeah, we know it's ridiculous. Like we love it anyway. Like, fuck off, who cares? And I love that attitude and I wanted to bring that a little bit to the book. But I also wanted to like use tropes in a way that was a little bit more subversive, so like. the telepathy trope for example, that's like a pretty commonly used trope in romantic where like hot dude talks in her head and it's so sexy and they have this great connection, but then, oh, surprise, we get to the end of the book and like, what's a dude actually gonna do if he can do that? Not every dude is gonna do that, but some of them. Probably are. and then there's like the one trope, obviously we get to the end, we find out, like seven's not the one. Alicia's actually the one I was trying to do a little bit of of subverting of the black person or the person of color always dies first, but there's a reason she died first. Right. And it's actually like, because she was literally chosen you know, so I was, I was hoping to just. Flip things as much as possible. The whole like narrative with art being the, like the best thing you can do and it being so great. That's another kind of trope I think like I'm sort of familiar with, with that in books of, it's like, especially in like anti-fascist books and books that are. Dystopian or whatever. There's always sort of a theme of like, art is great like, that's how we're gonna beat these guys. So I wanted to, I wanted to sort of flip that trope as well. And it was a, it was hard line to walk, honestly. I wasn't really sure if it was gonna work. I think it is a bit convoluted and like a little bit complicated that you kind of have to like explain at the end. But I, it sounds like you guys appreciated it, so that's,

Sara:

I mean, it it does, it does all come together at the end in a way that was really satisfying. So, yeah, like I, I thought it was great.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Liz:

Awesome.

Lilly:

I, it's so strange that I have not asked you a single question about the romance plot line because as I

Liz:

It's actually not, my books are really not all the, they're not romances. Like, let's be honest.

Lilly:

But it's just, I'm a, I am that reader though.'cause I was like, yes, fuck yes. Hell yes. Yes. More at various points throughout this book. And so I just have no question. I was like, yeah, great. I loved like obviously the boyfriend with so many red flags ending up being as awful as he seemed,

Sara:

Oh, he was such a dick.

Liz:

I have questions for you guys actually. So I would love to know, like did, did you for Logan, like did you spot his red flags throughout? Did you have like a feeling where you were like, what is this guy is like, not really. Or were you like, hell yes, I'm on board with Logan. Like give me the magic dick. I'm so curious to know.

Lilly:

Sarah, do you, do you have an answer?

Sara:

So,

Lilly:

a diatribe.

Sara:

so I thought he was a bit of a dick from the beginning. Part of that also is because I just really don't like Channing Tatum.

Liz:

Okay. Fair enough.

Sara:

And so the comparisons to Channing Tatum, I was like, why are you with this dude when you, when you could be with Kurt?

Liz:

That's so funny because, oh man, my fear is that people are gonna be like, Kurt Cobain. Ew, no thank you. He's like, I love Kurt Cobain. I'm a big fan. But I know that this is not for everyone for sure. So I kind of put t Channing Tatum in there as like the antithesis of that to be like, well, just in case people don't like Kurt, we'll have Channing Tatum as well, so that like.

Lilly:

I feel like this might be chanting Tatum slander a little bit. Just like he didn't do any of those things. Logan's a different guy, but, so it's it was really hard because like you said, there are so many romantic tropes. The, the shadow daddy love interest, right. Is, is such a thing. And while I was reading the book, I like, at the beginning, I didn't know how far you were gonna go. Like once, once you start flipping tropes, it's like, okay, like I need to throw out every, all of my preconceived notions about what I've read up until this point. But at the time. It's unclear whether it's like, yeah, you're leaning into this trope or, oh shit, no. Every, everything, all of the realistic comments of, well, it actually wouldn't be great if a boyfriend did this in real life ends up coming to fruition. I think what I was, the one thing that was in the back of my head the whole time that you can't ignore is he lies to her about wiping her memory. Right. That's the, like the thing there was like, that's going to come up and be a problem at some point. But it ended up being so much more than that. I still felt like, okay.

Liz:

That's funny'cause I actually wondered if people would even re like, remember And so it's, it's actually good to know that like people are maybe like, what's gonna happen with this?'cause that is something, I guess that would kind of keep you reading or like you'd wanna

Sara:

Yeah, I was, I was definitely wondering the entire time, like. When is this conversation gonna happen? And it does happen and, and it

Lilly:

But not at all how you expect.

Sara:

Yeah, not at all how you expect, and I was, I was really, really glad that it does come up because Yeah. That it's such a big thing and then it ends up being kind of minimized by all the other terrible things that he, that he does.

Liz:

It.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Well, like the, the traditional Tropey way of handling it would've been. That's the fight they have at the very end for them to break up and then get back together afterwards. Right. Like that would

Liz:

Or that there was some noble reason that he didn't tell her. Right. I had to protect you because if you had known blah, blah, blah.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. But the, the, the, the moment of conflict for them to overcome together in their relationship which was like, again, before I got to the trope starting to get flipped, that's where I thought it was going. But then at some point you have to just go, alright, everything I think is happening is out the window and

Sara:

I was actually kind of expecting, like I got maybe three quarters of the way through the book and I was kind of expecting that Logan was gonna be behind everything.

Lilly:

mm-hmm.

Liz:

That's good. Oh,

Sara:

Yeah, I was, I was like, I was like, he's gonna turn out to be the bad guy. And he, I mean, he, he kind of is in the sense that he is also an AI that's been, you know, programmed to, to

Lilly:

Manipulate.

Sara:

yeah. Capitulate and, and things like that. But he definitely wasn't the bad guy in the way that I was expecting.

Liz:

Cool. All right. Yeah.'cause I think I got about three quarters of the way through this book, and I realized I was writing a murder mystery where the murderer is the main character and also doesn't know she's the murderer. And at that point I was like, this is fucking complicated. Why did I do this to myself? And I realized, I was like, okay, well, so, you know, I would like to throw some red herrings at you so that people don't immediately just go, oh, well obviously the AI is evil, and we're just kind of waiting to see, you know, exactly how that plays out. Which I think probably there's people who probably will just read it that way and that's fine. But I, I don't think you ever really suspect soul even though I did kind of like try to lead you down that path a little bit. I don't know if anyone really ever does. Suspect soul. But I think if you think you've like outsmarted me and you're like, she's just trying to throw this soul thing at me to lead me off in the wrong direction because you think it's Logan, then that's great because then I've done my job and you really don't know what's going on at all. And I've done two red herrings and hooray.

Sara:

I, I did not see the ending coming. I loved it, but I did not see that coming at all.

Lilly:

Well, and then you played me like a fiddle with

Liz:

Three.

Lilly:

character. Oh, like. I, I feel like every single reaction I had was probably exact. If you have an outline somewhere where you're like, I hope the reader feels this, you probably did it with Kurt, because I went so much from like, okay, great. He's the cute love interest, or, oh no, he has a, a girlfriend or, oh, okay. I guess he was the love interest, red herring, if you will, that she doesn't actually end up with and then he comes back. So hot and romantic at the end, and they have their like emotional connection and I was just like, damn, you got me? You

Liz:

That's great. That was, I mean, that was something I really worried about because we don't really see Kurt for like the entire book. And then I basically have like two chapters at the end to get you really on board with Kurt before he fucking dies. And I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work. Like can I, I don't know if I can get people like we, we've heard nothing from this guy for like the entire book basically. So, you know. I don't know how good of a job I did. It sounds like pretty good, I think. But yeah, that was something I really worried about. Actually. I do, I don't have an outline of that kind of thing anywhere. I have an outline of the plot, but yeah,

Lilly:

I just I did forget about him through the middle of the book, but also part of it is like. That's kind of how college works too. Like you, you meet people and then you don't have classes with them, or you don't see them for a while and they come back into your life. And so that actually felt very natural in a way like yeah, like you ebb and flow and that's really normal. And that made him feel like such a much more natural love interest than Logan did, especially at, by that point in the book things had started to fall apart there. Yeah, no, I was on board.

Liz:

Cool.

Lilly:

I have to ask, while you were planning this out, was it always in the matrix the whole time?

Liz:

No. Well, so, hmm. When I first started writing this book, it was actually gonna be like a YA adventure story where a girl who is raised at sea by parents, sort of like my partner and I would be, if we were parents, has to go back to an American high school and reintegrate into an American high school and she discovers magic and the theater stuff was still gonna be there, but the whole AI thing wasn't even at all a part of it. And then I don't. Really remember why I decided to, I wanted to write something about ai and I already had this manuscript going, I think, and I was like, is there any way I can shoehorn AI into this manuscript that I'm already working on? Turns out, yep, there is. So I did that and I, I wanted her to have the magic AI assistant and I wanted her to be surrounded by artists.'cause obviously that like creates nice tension. The being inside the Matrix thing. Actually I wanted to a twist. And I didn't know what it was gonna be. I think I had plotted up until like around where the dragon is kind of like happening and I was like, I don't really know how I'm gonna get myself out this. So day SX mock, I guess. But I think the day SX markina thing, I. I liked that because I was like, well, God, from the machine, that's so meta, that's like literally what humans are doing in this book. And I like to have a little bit of like meta, there's other kind of like meta things that like are sort of sprinkled in the book. I knew I wanted to have the main character die'cause that just seemed like a fun challenge. And then I read cao, Ishi Gurus never let me Go. And I don't remember exactly what it was about that book that all of a sudden I was like, I know she's the ai. I think that's what it is, because in Kazu and it never let me go. She's the clone. Right. I think, I can't remember exactly the plot now, but I think I'd even spoiled that book for myself before I read it. I went in knowing the plot twist and it was still great. But the plot twist in that is that like you find out that. Oh fuck, I can't remember the plot now. But you find out that she's a clone basically. And I think when I read that I was like, yes, that's what I want. I want the plot twist where she is, the ai, which kind of got a little bit twisted with like her being a part of the network. But like as I started to sort of write that, I realized it had to be a little bit bigger than just like her being the ai. So. Yeah, it wasn't, a lot of things in the book weren't really planned and they sort of came together as I was writing which tends to happen. I think you, I plot. As much as I can. I'd like to give myself a nice framework where I at least know what each beat is going to be, but there's always gonna be stuff that changes and like new themes that come up and new threads that you realize you can connect as you're writing. And so I really love just letting that stuff kind of like develop and grow and build itself really.

Sara:

So what would you like readers to take away from this book?

Liz:

I think first and foremost, I just want people to have a really good time. I think that's honestly the most important thing. Like you should just have a fun time. there's a kraken and a chainsaw and the dude's got a magic dick and he's gonna recite Shakespeare while he goes down on her and like, yes, let's all just have a whale of a good time doing that. And then if you also come away from it being very surprised by the plot twists and enjoying that aspect of it. That's great. I don't think I'm necessarily hoping to, like, change anyone's opinion on AI or like, make any kind of grand statement. I think most of the things that are said about AI in this book are fairly well-known. Like. Talking points of, of the technology at this point, when I was writing it, you know, two years ago, it maybe wasn't quite so in the public discourse, but now it is. So that, but that's fine. Like if all it's doing is reinforcing your own echo chamber of, you know, the issues with the technology, then, then fine. Mostly I think it should just be a good time. And if, maybe, if you're a person who. Mostly reads romance and maybe doesn't pay attention so much to what's going on in the tech world. Maybe you might like learn something and that would be cool.

Lilly:

Liz, thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to talk to us. Can you tell us a little bit about, I guess this book is just coming out, so is there anything that we should keep an eye out on from you, or is it, go read this book?

Liz:

Go read this book. Absolutely, please. And if you do like it, please spread the word because. Whether there will be a Book two is very much dependent on how sales of Book One go. So, please feel free to tell all your friends to also buy it. I'm currently working on a fantasy satire called Mother and Slaughter, which is basically a. How do I pitch this? It's a fantasy comedy about abortion and trans rights where a woman in her mid thirties, she's a gladiator, she gets knocked up and then she has to go on this like epic fantasy quest seeking a magical abortion. So I just kind of wrapped the manuscript on that and my agent and I are pitching it both as a novel and a graphic novel. So I'm pretty excited about that. I think it'd be really cool. That's probably the next thing that's coming up. I've been posting chapters of it, work in Progress chapters of it weekly on Patreon. If people are interested in checking out, like my current work in progress, the next thing I'll be working on probably is the next dot slash magic book. So if people read book one and really wanna go read book two, that should start posting to Patreon within the next couple months.

Sara:

And I believe that slash Magic actually will be out by the time this episode gets released. So everyone should go and buy it. So that we have a second book.

Liz:

Yes,

Lilly:

need to know what happens with Kurt.

Sara:

I know, me too. And where can you be found on the internet so that people can keep up to date with, with all of these projects that you've got going on?

Liz:

Yeah, so you can find everything at my website, liz shipton.com. I'm also very active on social media. My Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook handles are at Liz Shipton author, and I post probably too much like every day on those. So if you wanna see more of me than you ever wanted to see, go there.

Lilly:

Fantastic. Well, thank you again so much. This has been a, a wonderful conversation and I can't wait for whichever project of yours I get to next.

Liz:

Yay. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much. This was a really fun conversation. It was really nice to be able to chat this in depth about the book.

Sara:

Yeah. No, it was, it was great. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!