Fiction Fans

Double-Edged Sword & Sorcery from Brackenbury Books

• Episode 192

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Your hosts read “Walls Of Shira Yulun” by Dariel R.A. Quiogue and “Waste Flowers” by Bryn Hammond, two novellas in Mongol-inspired fantasy settings published in one volume. Your hosts compare how fantasy is integrated into each story, different approaches to fight scenes, and the horrors of war. The only character names Lilly didn't have to look up were for the goats that appear on exactly one page.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I am Sarah, and today we will be discussing the first issue of double-edged sword and sorcery, which is a new. Book out by Bracken berry books. It is two novellas published together.

Lilly:

and these two novellas are, let's see, the walls of Shira, Yolo and waste flowers.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I do have to admit that I am about five years old and Waste Flowers makes me giggle a little bit, which is supremely unfair.

Sara:

It is a little unfair.

Lilly:

Anyway, before we get into that, what's something great that happened recently? I.

Sara:

Something great that happened recently is there's a new addition to the podcasting family. I adopted Dumpling who is a almost 2-year-old pug. And she is joining the grumble.

Lilly:

You heard our last recording and were like, that's not enough. Pug snores in the background. We need more noises.

Sara:

Exactly. And she's really loud too.

Lilly:

Yes, she is. Not right now though. Well, I say that'cause she's sleeping, but the snoring could commence at any moment.

Sara:

She is snoring. It is a little overwhelmed by the sound of the fan because it's quite warm here. She's also not on the couch, so there's some distance. Because she is still a puppy and very rambunctious, she is having enforced nap time in her crate.

Lilly:

Well, I wish someone would enforce nap time on me.

Sara:

I know, right?

Lilly:

My good thing is that I got new headphones and that's about it. They're not broken, which is a good thing. It was kind of funny how much time I spent at the store, like I was comparing specs. Okay? I was like looking up all the details and like, okay, this one says this. What does that mean? I probably spent more time analyzing these headphones than like they were worth. It's a lot of time agonizing over a$9 purchase.

Sara:

But now you have headphones.

Lilly:

so very helpful for things like listening.

Sara:

Listening is overrated. Who needs to do that?

Lilly:

What are you drinking today?

Sara:

It has been a week because Dumpling, I love her dearly, but she's a little terror, so even though it is mid-afternoon, I am drinking cider.

Lilly:

I am drinking a. I'm gonna call it a red wine spritzer which is probably not a real, the real name for it, but I just mixed some mango, lightly sweetened bubbly water with some boxed red wine. And it's kind of like lazy sangria if you think about it. But it's very delightful.

Sara:

Lovely.

Lilly:

Have you read anything good lately?

Sara:

I did read a book on dog reactivity and resource guarding because dumpling is a little traumatized terror. And I needed help.

Lilly:

Well, I'm glad there were resources for you. Do you, was it helpful?

Sara:

It was helpful a little bit. I think the main takeaway I got from it was that. I am not a dog trainer, so I should hire a dog trainer.

Lilly:

Hey. Sometimes it's helpful to be told this isn't for you and that's okay, or not, not for you, but you know what I

Sara:

Yeah, yeah.

Lilly:

not your skillset.

Sara:

Yes. This is not my skillset. I mean, SN and Mr. Squeak have been easy. Not, not that they're necessarily, they're not well trained. They're not trained at all, but like. They were generally pretty low key, so I never bothered to train them because they're little pugs, they can't do any damage. But I think Dumpling actually does need some of that order just to help her settle in. So I am getting a trainer.

Lilly:

Are you going to teach the old dogs new tricks?

Sara:

We'll see. Right now I'm more concerned about teaching the young dog new tricks.

Lilly:

Fair enough. Well, we had two different stories that we read for this week. It was interesting having that like I. Combined format. I wasn't familiar with it. Apparently it's was a thing for a while and the back of this book refers to them as pulp fantasy, which especially for the first story, I think was, is a very accurate description.

Sara:

Yeah, the first one felt very old school. Before we start, I will say that I probably did not give these stories the, quite the attention they deserved because I have a wild little animal that I'm trying to domesticate. And so that, that made focusing on reading very hard. But especially the first story, like. Because I was reading that one first right when I got her. So I was definitely like only paying half attention. But it, it was very old school and it reminded me, I think you had mentioned off air that it was very much in the vein of like Conan the Barbarian stories. And I

Lilly:

me very much of that. Yeah.

Sara:

yeah, and I would say that was pretty accurate to, to how I felt as well.

Lilly:

Now we keep saying first story, second story. We did list the titles in order. We're talking about walls of Shira, Yolo, and then Waste Flowers was the second one. In this collection. Now, I didn't notice any like forward or anything by the publisher, but I have to assume that these specific stories were chosen to be combined in this way because they both take place in like a fantasy Mongolian empire setting.

Sara:

Yeah, that was my assumption too. I would've liked more of an introduction from the publisher, partly because I just find introductions and afterwards really interesting these days. But I think it would've helped to understand why they were choosing to. Published in this format, why they had chosen these stories in particular, like what they felt made these stories fit together.

Lilly:

Yeah, I almost would've rathered more different stories I think. Just keeping track of, there's a lot of very similar names and then across two completely different stories that are not related at all. And then it's just a lot.

Sara:

I liked that they were kind of setting wise, thematically similar. I. But I can see how having two stories that were more different would've been easier to differentiate between the two.

Lilly:

It is mostly just, there's a lot of factions in both. I think that was like the most difficult thing, and so remembering who belongs to which faction. And then which story which faction belonged to.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And then also we just read a Judas Blossom, which was also kind of set in a similar setting. I don't, is this just like a coincidence? Is there a lot of Mongolian fantasy happening right now?

Sara:

I mean, until you asked that question, I would've said it was a coincidence. But I don't know. Maybe, maybe it is more of a trend.

Lilly:

Now Judas Blossomed by

Sara:

Steven Arian.

Lilly:

Arian not come out recently, although I think the series just ended.

Sara:

Yeah, the, the trilogy, the third book just came out.

Lilly:

so maybe it is just that we happen to be reading these all at once.

Sara:

It's funny, the first book didn't make me think of Judas Blossom quite as much, but the second one did because it's talking about Chinga Khan. His original name was Temo, and there's a character in the Judas Blossom named Temo.

Lilly:

That's interesting'cause I felt like the first story reminded me quite a bit because it's about. a city under siege, which Judas Blossom deals with. Not on the page as much, but we hear a lot of talk about war and conquering and

Sara:

I think situationally, yeah, situationally. The first book is more similar, or the first story is more similar.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

It was just the names that made me think of.

Lilly:

We are going back and forth between these two stories a lot. I am reminded that back when this podcast started, we always did two books per episode, which is absolutely nuts. And I don't know what I was thinking

Sara:

Well, you were thinking you didn't wanna read a book a week. So reading two books every

Lilly:

weeks. Felt different somehow. Yeah.

Sara:

I mean, it was a bad idea. It was a bad choice,

Lilly:

But even just like trying to organize this conversation so that it makes any kind of sense for the listener has been a little bit of a challenge. Just anyway, I think when we start talking about the specifics per story, we'll get, we'll dive into it in a

Sara:

Yeah. Well, I, I think it's also a little harder because these two stories are meant to be read together and discussed together. I mean, they're, they're one publication, even if they're two different stories. And so that muddies the water a little bit.

Lilly:

Right. Well, other than my keeping track of factions, did you feel like reading them together affected your experience of the individual stories?

Sara:

I think it highlighted the differences between the two. Like the fact that they were so similar in this Mongolian setting meant that I was comparing them more. That I would have if I had read them separately. And so some of the writing choices and character decisions that the first book made kind of threw into relief or the first story made kind of threw into relief differing choices that the second story makes.

Lilly:

I definitely, I think I spent a lot of time thinking. Is it just the setting or am I supposed to be drawing more parallels? But I really, yeah, they're very different stories

Sara:

They're very different stories. Yeah.

Lilly:

though. Like I mentioned earlier, walls of Shira, Yolo by Dariel, RA, uh oh, Quiogue. Any feedback.

Sara:

I, I have to say, I'm sorry if we're mispronouncing his name. I did look for pronunciation Guide online and couldn't find one,

Lilly:

All right.

Sara:

so we're, we're stuck with qui.

Lilly:

sorry sir. Is about the siege of one city. The main character was exiled by his tribe and needs to save an individual out of this city that he knows his tribe is about to attack. And I don't think it's a spoiler to say that he ends up helping the city against his tribe. That I think happens pretty early on,

Sara:

Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure that's not a spoiler.

Lilly:

But it's very like, not sedentary, but it, the location is this one city. He's not traveling. Whereas

Sara:

It's very focused on the action of like battle I.

Lilly:

much yes, a lot of fighting and then also fighting at scale. Because Waste Flowers has quite a few fight scenes as well, but they're more individual. It's the main character and her girlfriend doing badass shit like I said, one-to-one. And there are of course other characters fighting too. And there are are bigger scenes, but I feel like the action focuses on them as individuals.

Sara:

I would, I would also argue that the. Action scenes like the fight scenes in waste flowers are not the only thing that happens like for walls of she loon. It really is, even though there are a couple of different battle scenes, as the city gets besieged, the whole focus is on defending the city and defending the, the waves of attackers off of it. Whereas in. Waste flowers, it's, they're trying to get from point A to point B and there are some fights in between there, but it's not, it's not the same kind of like action focus.

Lilly:

right. And then of course there's a lot more travel happening. We actually see the caravan instead of just hearing about it, which was very fun. I do think that the fantasy elements are handled pretty different differently in these two different stories.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Now, there is fantasy in both of them. Of course, double-edged fantasy, I think is the name of the, the thing. But in the first one, it feels more like it's part of the setting, if you will allow my my pillars of genre theory to run rampant for a moment. There is fantasy, but it's almost coincidental that one side or the other happens to have magic as part of this siege. The plot is around the war and magic kind of feels like it's just one more weapon used in this combat.

Sara:

So then what would you argue that the, second one, the magic is because I would have felt that the magic in the first is more plot based. Like it, not that it drives the plot because the siege is what's driving the plot, but it like. Everything that every time magic occurs, it is in conjunction with trying to move the siege along, whereas the magic in the second one for me felt much more setting based as part of the world.

Lilly:

Interesting. I disagree because in the second one they do accidentally run into undead in the desert. I say ac, I mean J like accidentally. They just run into

Sara:

Yeah, it is. It is accidentally.

Lilly:

But we find out a lot more about the undead and their source and everything ends up being explored. I'm gonna stay very vague. Whereas the fight scenes in walls of Sheila Loon, there's also gunpowder, explosives that are used to, advance the siege and what's the difference between gunpowder and magic? Or used the exact same way.

Sara:

True.

Lilly:

It could have just been more gunpowder.

Sara:

I, I would call gunpowder setting rather than plot. So, but it, for me, the magic in waste flowers felt very, open-ended in the sense that it didn't feel like it was restricted to the instances that we saw it in the story.

Lilly:

Interesting. Okay.

Sara:

And so I feel like that's why it has more of a setting vibe for me because it's not. Tightly wound up with the plot, per se,

Lilly:

Interesting. I think we're gonna have to put a pin in this conversation for the spoiler section.

Sara:

possibly.

Lilly:

think. The last spoiler free comment I have is that horses are fucking terrifying.

Sara:

We do see horses being scary in actually, I would argue both books.

Lilly:

Well, I mean, these are both very horse centric stories. That is I think inextricable from the, the setting, right?

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Yeah. Holy shit. They're the real monsters.

Sara:

I mean, I do like horses, but we do get to see their scary side in this.

Lilly:

I like horses in the same way that I like alligators.

Sara:

I would not try to ride an alligator. I would try to ride a horse.

Lilly:

not try to ride a horse either. Have you seen their hooves?

Sara:

Yes. And I would

Lilly:

kill people.

Sara:

yes, and I would still try to ride one.

Lilly:

Absolutely not. No thank you. No, no, no. Unless.

Sara:

try to ride a wild horse to be fair.

Lilly:

Unless there was like a professional alligator trainer who was like, I am holding this alligator still, and you may touch it, and I can tell you that everything's gonna be fine. Same way I would deal with the horse, unless there is an adult telling me what to do, I'm not getting near that thing.

Sara:

I mean, that's, that's fair. I, I wouldn't necessarily be riding a horse on my own either.

Lilly:

Even a ta, like even a, a pet horse, like no indistinguishable from an alligator. Tell me one way that they're different. They both have tails.

Sara:

They do both have tails.

Lilly:

Anyway, a little bit of a tangent, but there are so many horses in both of these books and I was just like, dear God.

Sara:

There were a lot of horses. It's true.

Lilly:

Yeah. Well, if you like horses, you would probably like these books'cause it does have a lot of horses.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I like, I think if you want fun, Mongol setting fantasy. You would like these books or these stories? This book?

Lilly:

This book, I really enjoyed the two shorter stories. Like I, I like short, shorter fiction.

Sara:

I mean, I like the novella, the two novella format.

Lilly:

I liked it quite a lot. I'm excited. Have they announced what their next one is going to be? I think I saw it at the back.

Sara:

I am not sure actually.

Lilly:

I saw something.

Sara:

I know that this one actually just came out pretty recently, so I would be surprised if the next one is coming out anytime soon.

Lilly:

They have an anthology coming out. Beating hearts and battle es. I'm assuming that's the same publisher'cause they're advertising it in the back of their book.

Sara:

It seems likely,

Lilly:

Well, I'm excited to see what they do next. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction fans.

Sara:

that's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine sotia.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Sara:

Okay, so I think the way we're gonna do this is talk about walls of she loon first and then Waste Flowers. Yeah.

Lilly:

I think so and no. Like not bouncing back and forth as much.

Sara:

yes. Attempt to not bounce back and forth. I will say that walls of she loon didn't entirely work for me. Part of that was that I was really distracted while reading it. That's not a good reading experience and that's not the fault of the story. But part of it was also just the very old school style of it.

Lilly:

The pros and dialogue I struggled with. Mm-hmm.

Sara:

like I didn't, I didn't dislike reading it but it was a little bit rougher for me to read.

Lilly:

I did really like how it approached the conflict that we're seeing because, oh, shoot, Orhan is the main character. Yeah.

Sara:

Yes, I believe so.

Lilly:

Because he has basically switched sides. I. We get his interpretation of this very violent conflict and he kind of has to struggle with like, I am trying to help these strangers murder my friends, which is not an angle that we see very often, even in stories that are like, there are no good guys in war. It's not quite that, personal for the main character. And so I won't say I. Saying I liked it sounds psychotic, but I thought it that was a very well done thing.

Sara:

It was an interesting take and I, I did enjoy seeing that portrayed in fiction, even though it is hard. But the thing about it is that he loses either way because he has this mentor, almost like father figure. This trader who is settled and is now married and living in

Lilly:

Traitor as in merchant, not traitor as in betrayal.

Sara:

yes. Trader as in T-R-A-D-E-R. Someone who sells things for a living. And this merchant is now living, she loon with his wife and family and essentially like can't leave. And. So Orhan has to choose between his feelings for his former tribe who has kicked him out and his feelings for his essentially, you know, father figure.

Lilly:

it's even a little more complicated than that. I, the, the politics in this book I thought were very thoughtful and complex because. It's not actually a straight up siege by Oren's previous tribe. They have instigated a civil war between the two groups of people that live in this city. So it's even a little bit more complex than that, right? Because you have neighbors fighting neighbors. And there was one heartbreaking scene where, the defenders are accidentally attacking themselves because they can't tell who's the enemy or not because they're all just the people who live there. another additional, like really horrifying, but well done Angle on the whole

Sara:

Yeah, that was fantastic and I, I thought, I mean, fantastic in the sense that it was really well done. Not that I was cheering it off or anything,

Lilly:

Yeah. Murder your neighbor. Yeah.

Sara:

but it's, it's an interesting aspect to war and battle that I don't think a lot of stories usually go into and

Lilly:

Right. And it especially not, if we're approaching this from a, oh, this is kind of like a throwback it feels very like vintage fantasy except it does bring this sort of additional element to the conflict. It's not just. One side is the good guys and one side is the

Sara:

there's a lot of nuance there.

Lilly:

A lot more than I, I would expect. I, I think I compared it to code the barbarian previously just as far as like vibes while reading and code and the barbarian books were not that thoughtful.

Sara:

they were not.

Lilly:

So, yeah, it's His previous tribe, I don't remember their names, see the all of the faction names. That was difficult for me. Clearly I caught what was going on. It was okay, but now talking about it is difficult. It was actually Han's scheme for them to instigate this civil war so that it would be easier to capture Shera YOLO afterwards. So it's his own plan that he now has to switch sides and prevent like very good, poor guy.

Sara:

Yeah, poor, poor guy. But my problem, as much as I enjoyed that, one of the problems I had with this was that a lot of the other characters felt secondary to Orhan, not in the way that. Sometimes, you know, there are secondary characters and that's fine, but it felt like everyone was there to either help him or like provide motivation or to provide some kind of blocking point. It felt like a lot of the characters were more there as as plot rather than as characters.

Lilly:

I agree completely. This was definitely the Orhan show and everything was about him. He had some absolutely like crazy nickname. It wasn't like the snow leopard or something.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

He's the, the famous bandit. And when people found out that's who he was, there was a big deal.

Sara:

Well, I mean, it's understandable. It's a big deal because typically he'd been working against the people in this city, so.

Lilly:

But still everyone automatically recognizing that name.

Sara:

Automatically recognize him.

Lilly:

no. Which makes sense because how would they, but yeah, it's definitely like if this was a movie, the name would just be, like, the movie would just be named Orhan, right.

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

It's like a chronicles of rid the, the Battle of Orhan.

Sara:

the snow leopard.

Lilly:

Yeah. Very much focused on him. And I think that is part of why I was saying that the fantasy elements really felt secondary in this book, because there is a shaman. Who hates Orhan because Orhan exiled the shaman when Orhan was in charge.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

There's a lot of exiling happening in this book. So the shaman comes back and like hooks up with the guy who's now in charge of the tribe and is like, we both have the same enemy. Like, help me get him.

Sara:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Lilly:

Yeah, pretty much. And so all of the magic. Is really just this shaman trying to kill orhan or trying to help the siege so that someone else can kill orhan or the priests that they've found in the city trying to save Orhan from the shaman.

Sara:

I don't disagree with you that the magic felt secondary. It, you're right. It, it all felt like it was, supporting the, like the plot

Lilly:

Which I guess if you put it that way,

Sara:

I, and I think, yeah, I think

Lilly:

why it's the plot. That's why you're arguing. It's the plot pillar and not the setting

Sara:

yeah.

Lilly:

But it's not like the magic does not have its own plot, I think is my point.

Sara:

No, the magic does not have its own plot, but it's so tightly focused that I don't think it's as widespread as setting.

Lilly:

Okay. That's fair. But yeah, so the, the shaman was so single-minded.

Sara:

was kind of over the top bad.

Lilly:

Well, that, that's, I think that's part of the, like what gave me code and the barbarian vibes, right? Because you would run into these villains who are just like. They're just evil dudes. The shaman is a bad guy, period. He like sucks the life force out of little children to cast big spells to try to murder Orhan, who is obviously the good guy.'cause he's the main character,

Sara:

Yeah, it's like there's so much nuance in this book about who's the actual enemy, but not when it comes to the villain character, the like obvious villain characters.

Lilly:

right? It. It made him less imposing the shaman being him in that sentence. I don't remember his name, unfortunately.

Sara:

I just wanna say era allure, but because it was, it was like error something. But era allure is definitely the death God, one of the death gods in

Lilly:

Harold?

Sara:

saying Death Herald. Yeah.

Lilly:

Alright, let me see. I think I have.

Sara:

Yeah, and I think Ekay is the, where I was getting the air.

Lilly:

Yeah, the Shaman, Kara Eke, they mostly call him the shaman. He's really the only shaman that we see.

Sara:

Yeah, they, they do mention that there are other shamans, but there aren't any in the city.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. And the

Sara:

there are some other shamans who are part of the tribe and they don't wanna work with Kara Eke, but they're after that mention. Yeah.

Lilly:

Yeah. So that I do feel like if he had had more complexity. I think the shaman would've been more impactful as a character.

Sara:

Yeah, I would agree with that. He, he just was kind of. I don't know.

Lilly:

He's the boogeyman.

Sara:

Yeah, he was just bad. That was all there was to

Lilly:

He threatens to eat People's dreams is pretty. He is a pretty bad guy.

Sara:

Yeah, he was, he was unquestionably a bad guy.

Lilly:

I wonder if, because there's clearly other stories in this setting with these characters that Kuo has written, and I wonder if we get more character development for the shaman.

Sara:

I did kind of feel that like it felt, it did feel like even though this is a story that you don't necessarily need any additional backstory for like. Everything you need for the story you do get in this novella. It did feel like maybe my understanding of the characters would be more well-rounded if I had read more of the stories that were set in this, you know, universe.

Lilly:

Yeah, which I do argue you shouldn't have to do homework to enjoy a standalone piece, but there is something to be said for extended universes where like you can get more complex characters when you have more time to build them up and develop them.

Sara:

and again, you didn't need, I don't think you needed that context to get what was going on in the story or enjoy it, but it, it, probably would've helped a little bit. So in that sense, it is like homework, maybe more like extra credit.

Lilly:

Yeah. There you go. The other character that I wish had gotten more development was, oh, no, Fay Feron. Let me find her name. Fein. She is the wife of the, the mentor father figure, and also. Or Ron's love interest, which like is so interesting. There's clearly so much happening behind the scenes that we don't see'cause like what an absolutely nuts, so love triangle.

Sara:

Yeah, that, that kind of came out of a little bit out of left field I felt.

Lilly:

I mean it's introduced. We, when we meet Fain. Oron does have like heart eyes bursting out of his face,

Sara:

it's true. It, it is introduced, but I was not expecting it to actually go anywhere. Maybe that's on me.

Lilly:

it, I would say it comes out of nowhere in the sense that we don't really see the basis for this. Again, this is a novella. There's a lot happening. The main focus is on this. Conflict the Civil War. And so I hesitate to even call it a love triangle because it's not really explored at all. We just kind of get like snippets of it every once in a while where Orhan is like, I, thirsting after his dad's wife or she is having like a crisis because she's really into her husband's adopted son. Which are just really weird sentences to say.

Sara:

Those are really weird sentences to say and to be fair, like we don't know anything about her relationship with her husband

Lilly:

We know that it was pol not just political, but espionage. Her father married her to him so that she would have access, I think, to murder Orhan.

Sara:

Yes. To Murder, to Murder, Orhan.

Lilly:

but they fell in love instead,

Sara:

and she refused and it caused problems for her father. But we don't actually know anything about the working relationship between her and her husband, especially because he's infirm and not doing pretty poorly when we meet him in the story.

Lilly:

Yeah. And so I think that's another, it feels like there's a lot going on there that we don't get to see,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I wonder if it is explored more in depth in one of the other stories that feature these characters

Sara:

it could be it. It very well could be.

Lilly:

because Fain, I feel like

Sara:

She clearly has her own novel in

Lilly:

going on. Yeah, I agree completely. And so yeah, the snippets that we get of her. Were almost unsatisfying in a way because I was like, she's important enough to have quite a bit of Paige time compared to some of the characters, and yet we really learned so little about her.

Sara:

Yeah, I just, she was so interesting and we get so little of her. Not necessarily on the page, but like of her interiority and what she's actually thinking

Lilly:

We only hear about what she's actually thinking when she's like, it's so frustrating how much I like Orhan and I can't betray my husband, but also he's very hot.

Sara:

or I can't go with you. I have to go, you know, to this other city to, to keep my family safe.

Lilly:

She has kids,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

she can't just like fuck off and be with the hero. I get that.

Sara:

Yeah, which is a really interesting choice for love, interest and like fascinating. I want her story. She has a novel in her.

Lilly:

I agree completely. Yeah. So. Switching gears a little bit or a lot a bit to waste flowers and why goats are the coolest.

Sara:

Goats are pretty cool. I really, really enjoyed waste flowers. I just like the way that magic was integrated into the world was really neat, I thought. And I liked the, I liked the characters too. Like our main character goat skin is, like you said, traveling with her girlfriend, they're trying to protect this caravan, and there's lots of shenanigans that they run into that maybe undersells it a little bit.

Lilly:

Yeah. And goats are really cool and it's fun celebrating that. I feel like they're not. An animal that gets like highlighted that much, you know?

Sara:

They're not a sexy fantasy animal.

Lilly:

Exactly right. Like everyone knows tigers are cool.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

need another book.

Sara:

And horses are cool because they've got these dangerous hooves, you know?

Lilly:

Yes. But goats, and so goat skin is often in her like internal dialogue talking about like, and I was able to balance on the back of this horse on one foot because I have the balance of a goat. And it's like, yeah, goats do have really good balance.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Fuck yeah.

Sara:

I really liked how that was integrated. Just like the way that that goats played a part. Not necessarily goats, goats,

Lilly:

There are actually no goats in this book

Sara:

well, there are a couple of goats mentioned.

Lilly:

mentioned. I think she goes to a

Sara:

There's an old lady that she buys milk from who has goats.

Lilly:

and their names are botheration metal and try patience, which is so cute.

Sara:

And she talks about the goat that she and her friend watched when they were young.

Lilly:

Weird. His name was weird.

Sara:

But you're right that we don't actually see, there's not, there's not many goats.

Lilly:

There's not, they just talk about goats a lot,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

which is also like delightfully strange.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

so she is from a tribe that is all about goats. You might have been able to tell, however, her tribe has sort of we're not really sure what happened. Disbanded, fizzled out, been eradicated. She left. I kind of implied that she left'cause there was nothing to leave.

Sara:

No, I thought that she just left them and like she went to the city and.

Lilly:

Hmm. Her sadness about them makes it sound like something terrible happened.

Sara:

Maybe she was like exiled or something.

Lilly:

Maybe.

Sara:

didn't think that they were killed off.

Lilly:

I, I didn't think it was like a big dramatic, they all died in a fight. I thought it was just like there were not enough of them to maintain their little group.

Sara:

that's not what I got. But also I am going to play the dumpling card again.

Lilly:

That pug?

Sara:

It is, it is hard to read when you are trying to appease a, you know, 20 month old terror

Lilly:

Yes.

Sara:

who just wants to play and doesn't understand that you're reading and your phone is not something you're supposed to play with.

Lilly:

So Goat Skin's girlfriend is the king of the bandits, although she is a king of the bandits because each band of bandits has their own king and they call themselves kings just to like make literal kings mad, which I think is very fun.

Sara:

They're making fun of

Lilly:

Yeah. Yeah. So Key Mao is the king of this particular band of bandits, which I'm gonna stop saying because that phrase officially bothers me. I don't, they had a, a team name, but I don't remember what it was. Another faction whose name I have forgotten, but she also goes by like the spear of pear flowers.

Sara:

something about para flowers and then go skin calls her

Lilly:

Yeah, which is cute. Oh yeah. Wild Geese is something about the, their team name. The Bandits call themselves. Something about wild geese.

Sara:

As much as I've really enjoyed this story, I'm realizing I missed a lot of details.

Lilly:

Well, that was just another faction name, which as I already established outta my head.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I, those kinds of things don't tend to stay in my brain very long.

Lilly:

Goat skin and like the very, very beginning, stumbles upon a. Team of merchants and their bodyguards are getting absolutely slaughtered by a bunch of undead writing chariots. And the undead are like, have like all these gross, squishy flowers instead of organs and like vines, and they're crazy plant unde. Also skeletons, not zombies. I'm pretty sure

Sara:

Well, I don't think we necessarily know what kind of undead the, the charioteers are. The second group of undead that she runs into are definitely the flower ones.

Lilly:

Are, they're not flowers on the first ones. Okay.

Sara:

I don't remember them being mentioned. That doesn't mean there aren't flowers, to be

Lilly:

had flowers. I'm pretty sure. And I know she much, much later encounters undead that do still have skin, and that's like noteworthy because all of the undead up until that point have just been bones. I.

Sara:

Yeah. But the, the charioteers were a higher caliber of undead than the, the bones that she meets in the way station at the wall.

Lilly:

Yes.'cause they got chariots.

Sara:

Well, but they were rich people.

Lilly:

Uh,

Sara:

They were, they were buried with more stuff.

Lilly:

so. The bodyguards slaughtered they were not up for the task. So Goatskin says, Hey, I know someone who you could hire to help you get to Genghis Khan Chais. I think they, they say in the book that's where these merchants are trying to get to, to sell their wares, partially just to ingratiate the person who sent the stuff with Chagas Khan. So Goatskin always hustling, goes to Kim Mao and is like, Hey, do you and your bandits want to get paid to watch these merchants and help them not get killed in the desert? So they band together, they being goat skin and the emporium of wild geese. That is not what they called themselves. But hold on, I'm gonna find it because. I, I am pretty sure I can just search for the word geese and it will show up. Oh, she just, Kim out is calls herself King of the Wild Geese, the Wild Geese Gang of the Kada Marshes, which is the region where the bandits mostly spend their time. The Wild Geese Gang. I was pretty close.

Sara:

You were pretty close. And to be fair, the Wild Geese gang don't think that there's going to be so much. Undead bothers on the route to Chenga Khan.

Lilly:

Yes, we as the readers get the impression that that is not usual, not completely unheard of. There's no one who's like, I'm dead. That's impossible. And key Mao. Kind of teases goatskin a little bit for how much she likes encountering weird magic stuff in the desert, and that's why she roams the desert so much. Although that might just be because Kim Ma is jealous that Goatskin roams the desert instead of spending time with her.

Sara:

Maybe a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B,

Lilly:

so they set off on this adventure. They fight an undead dragon, which is increasingly badass.

Sara:

a couple of, undead dragons.

Lilly:

Came out like not lance's. What's the word for when you have a lance and you're doing a big horse thing? Joust. She jousts a dragon. Thank

Sara:

Yeah, but, but goat skin actually like takes a leg off.

Lilly:

Yeah. No, both of these ladies are incredible. I love both of them. I love their relationship. They're not like, I mean, they're together. But it's not super stable. At one point, Kim Mao even says like, I took this job to spend time with you for six weeks because they don't get the chance to see each other that often.'cause they're both busy people

Sara:

Yeah, they had a really sweet relationship.

Lilly:

Yeah. But they did really like each other and trust each other. And every time Kim Mao said something about. Her bandits working together with Khan. Goatskin was like, internally, does that mean she thinks bandits and nomads can be like together in the long term? Reading way too far into everything.

Sara:

skin, definitely an overthinker.

Lilly:

I loved it.

Sara:

I will say though that the, the one kind of small problem I had with the story was where it ends because there's not really a conclusion. I mean,

Lilly:

It was extremely abrupt.

Sara:

yeah, it's just really abrupt goat skin and goose. Have this experience in essentially the land of the dead and they don't talk about it. And goat skin is like, does she remember it or not? I think she remembers it. And then right when, when Kimo is gonna talk about it, goat skin pieces out and the story ends and I'm like, I need more.

Lilly:

in this. Land of the dead experience, everyone sort of gets a vision of the thing they missed most about their youth or something. It's not clear. Something they want, something they've

Sara:

I I thought it was like regrets. Like something, something you regret.

Lilly:

it.

Sara:

And it's not necessarily to do with youth like one of the. Merchants, or not the merchants a nomad group that they come across. Regrets, like not helping his daughter more, and she becomes a, like, she, she gets taken to be a prostitute or something. And so that's what he sees or hears and, and he goes off to try to help her and,

Lilly:

and that's where we learn about Weird The goat.

Sara:

Yes, because Goat Skin talks about this goat that she and her friend watched.

Lilly:

Yep. But Ky Mao's regret is that she murdered her first love. And so is there some jealousy there? Ky Mao assumes there's some jealousy there. Goat skin doesn't seem super jealous from the internal monologue we get.

Sara:

I don't think goat's skin is jealous because she just kind of assumes that Kim Mao had a good reason for it

Lilly:

Yeah. he Mao assumes that goat skin is jealous and mad at her.

Sara:

yeah.

Lilly:

And so yeah, it was What is happening? These two ladies need to talk to each

Sara:

Yeah, and the story ends right As right as Kim is trying to talk about it and go, skin just like goes away. I was, I was mad, I was big mad about that. I was like, how dare you brinham and to stop right here. I need more resolution than this.

Lilly:

Okay. The reason why I think the, the magic in this world is. A little bit more integrated into the plot and less just a quirk of the setting is because the king of the dead, like the god of death type figure is, has been, don't wanna say infiltrated,

Sara:

No, it, it, turns out that he's been bringing people back to life because he, he thinks there's gonna be a huge battle where lots of people die.

Lilly:

Yes, but specifically Chang Khan's boyfriend, best friend, who knows, were they roommates it's heavily implied that they

Sara:

I'm pretty sure that at the I, in the ending notes, Hammond mentions that there is a novel about Chinga Khan and his boyfriend.

Lilly:

Whose name starts with a J That I do not remember.

Sara:

it's like JAQ something.

Lilly:

Jun Garcon. Nope, that's the other story. I'm telling you, there's so many cons in two stories. JAI something.

Sara:

IJAQ. I thought,

Lilly:

Really.

Sara:

No jama,

Lilly:

Jam cook. Okay.

Sara:

so there was a. A J and an A and a Q in there, just not necessarily in that order.

Lilly:

So jama, their strategy, Chenga and JAMA is that JAMA would appear to be a traitor, infiltrate another like tribe or whoever they're trying to conquer, and basically bring them down from the inside and make it easier for Chagas to conquer them. However, this meant that their people started to see Jam MUA as an actual traitor. Gee, wonder why. So Chenga had him executed, but then Jam Mua basically was like, don't worry, I promise I'll haunt you. I'll still be here. And then Goat Skin thinks maybe Jam UGA is infiltrating with the King of the Dead, the same way he was doing with kingdoms while he was alive. Which is such a fun fun concept.

Sara:

Yes, so I see, I see why you're calling it plot more like a plot pillar. I still say that the magic is widespread enough that it doesn't feel. Like it is, it feels like there is just magic in this world, not magic that is only confined to this one piece.

Lilly:

I don't think this story could happen if the world didn't have magic.

Sara:

Yeah. Which is, which is why I feel like it's more of a ma, like more of a fantasy setting than a fantasy plot.

Lilly:

Whereas with the walls of Shira Yolo, the same story could happen if there was no magic in the

Sara:

Yes. Which is why I feel like that is plot not setting.

Lilly:

Okay. I feel like the exact opposite, but we agree on everything else, so it's fine.

Sara:

I mean, we, we agree on what we're saying. We just don't agree on the terms.

Lilly:

we, we have lost the definition of each pillar, which I, I'm too lazy to go dig up right now and remind myself how I delineated them, but

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

yes. Anyway.

Sara:

But we, we do broad, in broad strokes. We do agree.

Lilly:

Yeah. I'm so here for that, like court intrigue, romance craziness.

Sara:

Yeah. I would read that story, although I think I would rather read more goat skin.

Lilly:

Yeah. I like to go skin quite a lot.

Sara:

Yeah. Like I'm here. I'm here for everything. I. just really liked goat skin.

Lilly:

Overall, both of these felt like an appetizer for a larger body of work.

Sara:

yeah, I agree. But I actually really enjoyed like the collection. And I would read a, a book too, not necessarily, I mean, yes, for these two stories as well, but like a second collection of double-edged sword and sorcery.

Lilly:

Oh, absolutely.

Sara:

was, a very strong first issue.

Lilly:

Yeah, I'm definitely excited to see what they do next and is it gonna be more Mongolian fantasy? Are we gonna pick a new setting that's not used in classic fantasy?

Sara:

We'll find out.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.