Fiction Fans

Saint Death's Herald by C.S.E. Cooney

• Episode 191

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Your hosts read Saint Death's Herald, the second book in the Saint Death series. They discuss how much they remembered from book 1, and how that affected their experience with book 2. They also talk about the various relationships (from heartwarming to delightfully toxic) and their favorite animal companions (all of them. Every single animal, dead or alive or just less dead).


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

And I'm Sarah. And tonight we will be discussing St. Death's Harold by CSE Cooney.

Lilly:

but before we begin, let's start with something good that happened recently. Sarah, what have you got for me?

Sara:

I actually have multiple good things.

Lilly:

Ooh.

Sara:

For once. So the first good thing is that a couple of weeks ago I hard pruned some of my geraniums in pots, which I know geraniums can take. They're really hardy, but it's been really warm. And these geraniums were looking like very, very, very dead. They looked brown and just plain dead, but they weren't dead because they now have little green leaves on them. So I'm very pleased that I did not actually kill my geraniums. So that's my first good thing. And my second good thing is that today my stepfather changed the light fixture in my bathroom so that it is not motion activated, which means when I am in the shower, it will not turn off. is something that I have been complaining about for the six years I've been in this house, and it took like all of an hour to do. Well, actually it was an hour to do both the bathroom and the half bath, but I'm really pleased by this change.

Lilly:

You can shower in the light now.

Sara:

I can, like, it gets, my bathroom gets really dark when that light, like yes, there's the light, the fan light, but the main light goes out and it's really dark in the shower.

Lilly:

I can one up you with that. When the power goes out, our bathroom that has the good shower does not have any windows. And so you ha do have to in fact shower by candlelight.

Sara:

Yes, you can one up me.

Lilly:

That is exceptional circumstances though. You had to deal with it every day.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

My good thing is also gardening related. Although you had two good things. I'll allow it this once.

Sara:

Well, it's because if I don't use them now, I'm gonna forget them for the like next time we record.

Lilly:

My loofah's sprouted.

Sara:

Ooh.

Lilly:

I have the worst look with squash. I don't know. What it is. Everyone says that if you plant a zucchini, like never plant more than one zucchini'cause you'll get too many. Last year I had three zucchini plants and got two. So yeah, just not, I don't

Sara:

That is, yeah, I, I wonder what it is about where you

Lilly:

it's not even that though.'cause like my neighbors say, oh I have so many fuck you.

Sara:

Okay. So I wonder, I wonder what it is about where you're planting them specifically.

Lilly:

Anyway, my zucchini plant this year also abysmal. I don't know if it's gonna make it like, it has not grown a single new leaf since I transplant anyway, but I sprouted some loofahs from seed and they are looking so big and happy. I mean, they're not big yet, but they have big leafs that are coming off the little baby plant and I'm so excited.

Sara:

That is really exciting. I will hold all of my gardening questions for when we are not recording, because listeners don't need to hear that conversation. This is not actually a gardening podcast, but I, I wanna talk gardening with you.

Lilly:

We should although gardening conversations are way more interesting with pictures. So

Sara:

They are.

Lilly:

yeah. Anyway, what are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I debated what I was going to drink for this book, and I ultimately settled on champagne because it's fizzy and this feels like a fizzy book.

Lilly:

I love that. I think that's great. Yeah, that sounds perfect. I went entirely off theme. I didn't even try. I'm drinking a hard tea.

Sara:

They drink tea in the book. It counts. It's on

Lilly:

that's true. That's true. They do drink tea. I don't think they drink gas station tea in a can. I.

Sara:

Maybe not necessarily, but I mean they, I'm sure that they're in very weird places and get their tea from weird places.

Lilly:

Laney would, I think, if the opportunity arose. Yeah. it just, that kind of day to day, I dunno.

Sara:

Yep. I, I get it.

Lilly:

What have you read recently that is not podcast related?

Sara:

So today is the 25th of May, which means that it's time for my annual night watch, reread. So that's what I've been doing today, reading night watch.

Lilly:

you are exposing how late we are recording.

Sara:

Okay. Yes I am. You can pretend that I am reading. Night Watch by Terry PRT in advance of the 25th of May.

Lilly:

No, that's all

Sara:

It's not actually the 25th of May yet.

Lilly:

You do that. Reread every year. How long have you been doing that now?

Sara:

I've done it every year since he died.

Lilly:

How long has that been? Like roughly? We talking 10 ish. Five-ish.

Sara:

10, 10 years. I believe he died in 2015.

Lilly:

Oh, I do think I saw something about the tenure. Anyway, that book does grow, especially because of the sort of like, I mean it, it's a time travel book, right? So when you read it more than once, you're definitely gonna get something new out of it. But now that you are coming onto at least 10 rereads, do you think you're still picking up new stuff? Or is it sort of becoming familiar and you're just retreading known ground?

Sara:

I. I mean, I feel like at this point I'm not necessarily picking up new things. I know the last time we read it for the podcast I did because we had been doing so much disc world reading, like there were references to other vs stories that I didn't, and other disc world stories that I didn't necessarily pick up on. The first couple of times I read it, like there's a reference, a really quick reference to monstrous regimen where vs notices it, like, or he has a conversation about a article in the newspaper about Moldova and Bora gra

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

and that's a reference to the conflict that's going on in monstrous regiment. So there are still things to pick up, but at this point. I mostly just read it because I enjoy it like it's my favorite disc world novel.

Lilly:

Oh yeah. Sorry. That was not to say. Why, are you still rereading it?

Sara:

yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I, I didn't, I didn't think that was but also I do, for whatever reason, I, I do tell myself that I have to finish it in the day, like I start it on the 25th and finish it on the 25th, so I'm not necessarily doing a deep read.

Lilly:

Well I can hear it. I don't know if listeners will be able to, but I do wanna give the quick disclaimer that I'm recording in my garage today. There was a series of unfortunate events that have led to an internet collapse in my general vicinity, but I found a place that's working so.

Sara:

To be fair, I couldn't hear it.

Lilly:

I just there's gonna be more bustling bumps and noises from outside than usual.

Sara:

Potentially. But again, if, if you say that an airplane just went by, I couldn't

Lilly:

That wasn't an airplane, that was just the street.

Sara:

Oh. Well I still couldn't

Lilly:

yeah. And I might be able to cut around it. I'm not promising that. I just wanted to give everyone a warning.

Sara:

We'll, Bumble along

Lilly:

Anyway, I have been reading our Sost submissions, which we're pretty behind on. We've usually sent out acceptances by this time. But we still have a whole month before it comes out. So we got time.

Sara:

we're, we're gonna get it out on time. We will.

Lilly:

I found what is probably my favorite. It sounds like you've also stumbled upon it now, so I can actually tell you about it and not like. Affect your opinion.

Sara:

Yes. And I, I would agree it has been the favorite story that I've read to date. I hope that the author allows us to publish it

Lilly:

Anyway, I won't say anymore because we will do a wrap up episode on Solstice Show for our patrons, but tune in to hear more about this story that I'm gonna bend the rules for

Sara:

only marginally.

Lilly:

Alright. Anyway, speaking of bending the rules, kind of, I guess Lainey doesn't bend the rules of life and death. The goddess of death just likes her better than everyone else,

Sara:

I mean, she's a necromancer with a close personal relationship to her God, so she can do cool stuff that non necromancers can't and cool stuff that the other necromancer in this book has not figured out how to do.

Lilly:

that other necro answer has been undead for generations. Honing his craft like we are to understand he is was also one of the best necromancers.

Sara:

He, he was, but so we're talking specifically about Laney's grandfather or Radiant Stones. Grandpa Rad. And he was a very good Necker answer, but as we see, when we get his perspectives in the book, he is kind of a dick who thinks there's only one way to do things and doesn't bother trying to figure out other ways. So he was talented? Yes. Powerful. Yes, but much more restricted than Lainey.

Lilly:

Yes. Before we get too far into that conversation though, this is the sequel to St. Death's Daughter, which we read a year ago, two years ago.

Sara:

It was more like two years ago I think we, we read St. Death's Daughter, let me see if I can find it in our calendar. We read it in 2022,

Lilly:

Three years ago. Okay.

Sara:

which explains why it was so hard for me to remember the events of St. Death's daughter.

Lilly:

Well I remembered the plot pretty well. I could tell you like, Lainey started as a, like a pretty isolated, sad young woman. Part of a family that is on the decline overall, like a great noble house that has fallen and everyone is very mean to her and doesn't understand her. And then we get. Some Necker man, her sister shows up with the husband that she sexually assaulted and like coerced into marrying her with magical mind control or something, right? Something like that.

Sara:

Something like that.

Lilly:

and then also Laney's Lover turns out to be the secret like royal person,

Sara:

The blood Royal.

Lilly:

the Blood Royal. That's how you get around gendering that title. That was a big twist at the end. We thought they were just a priest. Turns out that was their secret identity to go undercover. And then the Black Bird Bride, who was the like partner, the other royal, she. Pulls some shady shit and then there's a big skeleton fight. And then Lainey gets banished. There you go. That's the first book I remember it.

Sara:

You remember it so much better than I do. Basically what I remembered. Lainey is great. I love her.

Lilly:

Little mice, her little mice

Sara:

she, she is a Necker answer and I've really enjoyed the book, but could I tell you what the plot of it was? Not, not really at this

Lilly:

Also Grandpa Rad is the only person who can teach her necromancy. She's the only living necromancer that anyone knows about. Necromancy has sort of declined over the years, and Grandpa Rad is teaching her. He is also the worst because everyone in her family is an abusive asshole. He is.

Sara:

for her niece.

Lilly:

well of course. She's kind of an asshole, but like

Sara:

She's kind of an asshole,

Lilly:

not an abusive one.

Sara:

it's, it's learned behavior.

Lilly:

or something at the beginning.

Sara:

Yeah. She's quite young.

Lilly:

So Grandpa Rad is stuck in this sarcophagus and then he breaks out and then a bunch of spirits that apparently he had been guarding in the sarcophagus Escape and hijinks are implied to ensue, and that is sort of where we pick up in this second book. Islan is chasing down her grandfather and the, the big Cyclone of Spirits. This book expected me to remember minutia, like, oh yeah, when Dure fought Retin. And I was like, Hmm, I remember who Dure is. She's the cool lady who can turn into a falcon, which is neat. Do not remember every fight she got into in the last book.

Sara:

Again, you still remembered more than I did.

Lilly:

And so there were definitely some moments that I had to like, reread a couple of times before it jogged my memory, but overall, I think I, I caught on pretty well to what was going on.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I like for all that. I didn't actually remember the events of Book one. And if we had had the time, I would've loved to reread book one because I remember really, really enjoying it.

Lilly:

Same. Yeah.

Sara:

for, for all that I didn't remember, like what had happened. I felt like it was easy to jump back in. I would've appreciated a, you know, the story so far, kind of, page and a half bringing me up to speed. But

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

the text gives you enough clues that like, you're not lost.

Lilly:

That up being said. I was pretty lost in the first chapter because it starts you with Grandpa Rad. And I was like, what the fuck? Like, who, what is going on? Who is this awful person? And why am I reading about him? Because also we don't get his name right away because he has possessed rein who is a triplet. It doesn't matter that much. For the sake of this introduction

Sara:

He was apparently a bad guy in the first book, kind

Lilly:

I remember the three brothers because they kept visiting the Stones Manor. And not tormenting Lainey. Exactly, but not, not tormenting her.

Sara:

I didn't remember them at all.

Lilly:

Mm. There was a, a brief, like Lainey, you ought to marry one of them to save the Stones family.'cause like they lose the house because they're in debt. I. And then they aren't able to pay their debts back. And so like the entire, like every worldly possession is, is retaken.

Sara:

I mean, I, I got that from this book.

Lilly:

Yeah. It, it, it catches you up. It's fine.

Sara:

It does.

Lilly:

with Grandpa Rad though was rough. He is the worst is

Sara:

Yeah. He's, he's absolutely terrible. And his point of view is consequently terrible. Yeah. Infuriating.

Lilly:

And I mean, that's very well done. I'm supposed to hate him, but I still did hate all of those parts. So good job. I guess

Sara:

I enjoyed them in the sense that I was having a great time with the book and. His parts didn't feel extraneous or out of place, like they added to the story and to my enjoyment of the story. But I, I mean, I did hate him.

Lilly:

Generally, yes, but I still, like, I had to restart this book twice. Like I couldn't get through his chapter. Just as far as like pushing me back into this world, especially with all of the memories I have of the first book and like how wonderful Lainey is and how sweet her Riman is, and like that is just not the vibe you get from the first chapter because it's Grandpa Rad.

Sara:

It's not, I didn't have that particular problem, but I can see why you would,

Lilly:

Would you remind me? Well, you don't remember the first book didn't have multiple points of view, right? It all followed Laney very closely

Sara:

I mean, I could go and get my copy of the first book, but I cannot tell you off of the top of

Lilly:

and read the whole thing. Right now, no. Does it have a wiki? Absolutely no idea. Okay. I don't remember there being multiple perspec and like, not perspectives. It's third person, but it's so, it's such close third person, and this book does jump around to a couple of different characters in that sense.

Sara:

Yeah, I think you know what it is. I think that what got me through Grandpa Rads first chapter and how terrible he is, is just how much I like Cooney's prose and like how much fun she has with the language in it. And that is still true with. RADS dialogue and with the narration, and so that for me was so much fun that I was like, okay, I don't mind that. I hate this character. I'm supposed to hate him, but I'm still having a good

Lilly:

Okay. That's fair. And I, I did have that experience, I would say through all the other parts with him, but it was just that, as an intro, it was rough. Now, narratively, that was excellent because by chapter two, we have already been introduced to the two very different types of necromancy that these characters are doing. Grandpa's Grandpa Rads is exploitative and, like burns up resources basically, and those resources being people and himself. Whereas Laney's is so warm and encouraging and collaborative with the spirits she works with. And I do like that right away we get this dynamic, which I mean the first book took the whole book to introduce'cause she's sort of discovering this sweeter method of necromancy because Stones had, or they're both stones, I, radiant Stones had been her teacher.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I do think it provides a really excellent contrast between the two right up front. And it, it sets the stage for their struggle throughout the book.

Lilly:

We also get two different versions of the Goddess of Death. There is do Denna, who is part of the Pantheon that Lainey worships from her home country. And then there is Era Allure, I think is the Skee version of The

Sara:

I would've, I would've said Skoki. But yes,

Lilly:

okay.

Sara:

I mean that's just, that's my personal pronunciation. I have no idea if it's correct.

Lilly:

known either,

Sara:

If we read the, or listened to the audiobook, I believe Kuni narrates that herself. So the audiobook in this case is the definitive answer.

Lilly:

Oh, that is good to know. It's too late to look up now.

Sara:

it is too late to look up now. But I would also argue actually that we get a third version of The Goddess of Death, which is DOA as IED Stones sees her,

Lilly:

Yes, but he still refers to that as Dood. Dena, that

Sara:

it is, it is still do Edna, but his Do Edna is kind of separate from Laney's, do Edna in some kind of very nebulous way. And it's interesting, I. Again, it's interesting to make the comparison between those two versions because Laney's is much more welcoming and his version is very toxic.

Lilly:

Well, in some way that is just a reflection of them, isn't it?

Sara:

I mean, it absolutely is.

Lilly:

And even then though, we still get the sense that that is the same. God just showing different versions of herself. Whereas with era allure, that is kind of a different God, but yet still the same because era allure is like the God of ice and death because the Skee people of very far up in the north and you, we see the Northern Lights and it was very fun and it made me wanna go to Alaska or something.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

But they, I mean, those two gods have different names, different modes of worship and, and yet still are the sa it there are times when Lainey says, I was visited by Ariel Allure, or Era Allure did this do not do Edna. So there like, there's a bigger degree of separation between those two.

Sara:

Yeah, there there's overlap, but they are kind of

Lilly:

But they are the same.

Sara:

but they're the same.

Lilly:

delightfully nebulous. Like this book does not nail it down, but I think in a really wonderful way, like it's a little mysterious, but you know, they're gods, they are gonna be a little mysterious. And do, Edna at least, is fairly consistent. By which I mean, sorry, Saint Death being do Edna or ERA allure is pretty consistent. I did like when do Edna helps Rad. At one point that I'm not gonna talk about in too much detail and Laney is like, you can't help both of us and do Denna basically shrugs and says, tough shit, kid. I mean, we don't get to see that on the page, but you get the sense that that's what she says,

Sara:

Yes. Yeah.

Lilly:

so like, such a God move. Excellent.

Sara:

I really like just the whole world that Cooney has built and all of the, like the religion and the customs and all of it. It just, I just love it. I, I love this series so much. Duology. I don't think we're getting more, I,

Lilly:

What? No, no.

Sara:

I mean, I'd love to be wrong.

Lilly:

part two of the Saint Death trilogy.

Sara:

is it?

Lilly:

I thought we knew that. I.

Sara:

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, we, we did know that it was a trilogy, but also I felt like this book wrapped things up so neatly that I didn't think by the end of it, I didn't think that we were getting a book three, and I just kind of ignored the fact that, yeah, it's part of a trilogy.

Lilly:

Well, there's more coming.

Sara:

Delightful. I'm so here for it.

Lilly:

I got distracted because the back of the book does say sk mot. Sk mot. I would say sk Mott. So maybe be sk not ska key because I wouldn't say sk Mott. That's crazy.

Sara:

I would say SK Mott,

Lilly:

Mm. That's not where the H is though. What?

Sara:

but it's not at SK either. We put the H in the same place.

Lilly:

MAT. It could be Matt, you pronounce that word, Matt,

Sara:

Yeah. Okay. SK Matt?

Lilly:

but my point is, an A can make an ass sound.

Sara:

Yeah. Yes it can. I default to the awe. It's

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

Uh, that's just if I see an a word that I don't know how it's pronounced and it has an A in it, it's gonna be an awe. That's just how I default to

Lilly:

You don't say grandpa Rod.

Sara:

No, because I know that it's from I radiant.

Lilly:

Anyway I just would like to note that that is a personal preference and the word does not support that at all. Although I think

Sara:

Oh, absolutely.

Lilly:

I'm going to Sacky now, although I do hate how that sounds,

Sara:

that, well, I'm, I guess I was not thinking about the mat part of it. I was thinking about the front part of it.

Lilly:

but when I see skk mot Yeah. Anyway,

Sara:

yeah. And I see SK Matt,

Lilly:

Yeah, you do not just to prove a point.

Sara:

well, okay, I will, I will allow that. I don't see the Matt part necessarily, but the, like, SK is how I, so skoki is how I would pronounce it. But that's, again, that's just a me thing. That's not, I don't, I don't know how it's actually pronounced.

Lilly:

this conversation is way less interesting because there is a definitive answer. We just don't know it.

Sara:

Yeah, basically we just need to listen to the audiobook.

Lilly:

Well, I'm still not an audio book person. I don't know if that'll ever change.

Sara:

Neither am I, unfortunately.

Lilly:

we love the world that these books have built. I also really love Lainey,

Sara:

Laney's great.

Lilly:

miscellaneous

Sara:

much fun to follow.

Lilly:

Like she is so wonderful and this book really felt like a love letter to her. In a way that because we are getting these other character perspective, like not perspectives, we're getting the deep thoughts of the other characters around her. We get a lot more of Laney from an outside perspective than just following her directly. And it's all wonderful. Everyone loves her except for Grandpa Rad, and he's obviously wrong, so

Sara:

He is so obviously wrong.

Lilly:

so dismissive and condescending and I mean, like she's the main character dude.

Sara:

I mean, he's a douche bag, but the thing that I love about Lainey is how much she loves period, right? Like she has such a huge heart and she loves all of the characters that we meet basically. Especially if they're touched by their God. It doesn't matter if it's a God that she follows, it's just if they have a connection to like their patron, she's like, I love you, you're great. Let's get married. I mean, not necessarily let's get

Lilly:

No, but she does wanna bang them.

Sara:

she does wanna bang them.

Lilly:

That's like, that's her thing. Like, oh man, blessed by the gods. Mm.

Sara:

It's so cute.

Lilly:

She's very sweet. And also we get to see, because we're getting other people's sort of opinions on her, they get to be more aw by her power, which I thought was really nice. Just as someone who loves lady, I was like, yeah, she is great.

Sara:

Yeah. She takes her power very matter of fact. And like, it's not actually anything special, but it really is special.

Lilly:

I felt like she was my romantic interest while I was reading this book. Not, not really, but you know, it was, she was

Sara:

I, it's, it's just, yeah, she's such a warm character to read about. Even when she's struggling she, you know, she just tries her hardest and is just nice. And I just really appreciate that. This is not a cozy book by any means. It's not cozy fantasy, but the way that Lainey views the world is very cozy.

Lilly:

I guess, I dunno if I'd use the word cozy. Oh, we've said warm like 800 times, but I think that is just like the right description,

Sara:

I don't know. I think, I think there's something cozy about her viewpoint.

Lilly:

I agree, except for the genre connotations, like how I was using romance in chi and cattails.

Sara:

Yes. It's, again, it's definitely not cozy fantasy. I don't wanna, I don't wanna say that it is at all but it warm and comforting. We can use that as a stand in for cozy. Sure. There is just something warm and comforting about the way that Lainey views the world.

Lilly:

Absolutely. There is also a lot of romance in this book, not this book is not about romance, but we have several relationships that are delightful and horrifying to various degrees, depending on the relationship. But I think I wanna talk about them more in depth in the spoiler section.

Sara:

I do think that part or most of that conversation is better served in the spoiler section. Yes.

Lilly:

I will say really love Mac.

Sara:

We don't see a lot of him in this book. I, I wouldn't have minded seeing more of

Lilly:

oh man. The first time he was back on the page, I was just like, oh fuck, I forgot how hot you are. And then he and Laney are so sweet and intimate except there's like no romance between them at all. They're like, he's her brother-in-law except her sister, you know, assaulted him. Whatever. It's fine. They're past it.

Sara:

But it is, we, we see a little bit from his point of view and it is really illuminating to see how his perspective has shifted from the first book to this one. Not again, not that I remember the events in the first book that well, and I don't know if we saw his perspective in the first book or, I can't remember if we saw his perspective in the first book, but he reflects on those events and like he talks in his. Perspective about how he didn't respect her at first and then he's come to see that he is better for knowing her and his daughter is better for knowing her, and it's just so sweet and loving and caring.

Lilly:

The two of them raising de Toura stones together, his daughter, Blaine's niece is so sweet. Like peak family, warm and fuzzies.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Which again, we don't get a lot of in this book'cause lady is off adventuring ink. Scott sk. SK I think is actually the name of the place. SK is the name of, is like the adjective.

Sara:

Yes, I think so.

Lilly:

a lot of fun spoiler things to talk about. How did we do having read this book three years after we read the first book? I think we did okay

Sara:

Yeah, I mean I still really loved this book even though I remembered very little about the first one. So yeah,

Lilly:

and it felt like an like a plus follow up. It delivered on everything that the first book promised. So if you liked the first one, absolutely. Keep reading.

Sara:

Yes. If you enjoyed the first book, you are going to enjoy the second book too, I think.

Lilly:

We've spoiled a lot for the first book, so I hope you have read it or don't care about spoilers at this point.

Sara:

I mean, if you care about spoilers for book one, why are you listening to a podcast episode on book two?

Lilly:

So go back and read book one if you haven't, and then read this book, especially if you like weird fantasy. I would say that it, this is playing with the necromancy trope, right? It's taking the idea that it's spooky, creepy, dark death magic and saying, but what if it was nice?

Sara:

Absolutely it plays with the necromancy trope. this is necromancy as I view it like death and, and bones as I view it. The warm and fuzzies, like just, just neat. So if you like bones, if you think bones are cool if you want a book series that just delights in language and if you want something that will give you the warm and fuzzies, like you should read the series.

Lilly:

Also some really great action adventure mo. There's some good fight scenes, some badass magic fight scenes, and some really heartbreaking moments.

Sara:

Yeah, it does it all. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.

Lilly:

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

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Lilly:

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Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly:

So as much as I love this book, we did just spend half an hour talking about how much we love this book, the Mid midpoint event. The trial by combat with the skin changers did not work for me at all.

Sara:

I didn't have quite as much of an issue with it. I still had a couple of problems. But for the most part, I, I enjoyed that confrontation.

Lilly:

there were a couple of things that peeved me. I definitely spent that entire sequence thinking about those and concentrating on if that was being consistent or not. And yeah, I got like nothing else out of it except for the big crab. Dude, I liked the crab. Dude.

Sara:

The crap dude was fantastic.

Lilly:

Started with an r. I do not remember anything else.

Sara:

oh, I thought it started with a K.

Lilly:

it start with a K? Alright. It started with a letter that's vaguely that shape and might have had a top or not.

Sara:

Yes. Basically he was a skin changer who was a real big crab. And he was great. He was like the priest.

Lilly:

He's the priest of the God of mischief, I think, or the trickster God, because the skin changers worship three out of the pantheon of 12, that Lainey worships

Sara:

It did start with a K, Kara Mora.

Lilly:

tarara. Okay. There are ours though.

Sara:

There are R'S in it.

Lilly:

I basically, identify words in fantasy books to this extent. The first letter is a lot, which completely off topic, but when Haken and Kraken are, talking to each other, and Kraken has already absorbed all of the skee ancestors into him, and they go back and forth, or Hawken goes back and forth, either calling him my ancestor or my brother, but he uses the skee word for it words. And conveniently the skee word for brother also starts with a B. And the ska key word for ancestor also starts with an A. So I had no trouble following

Sara:

I didn't actually make the, the starts with the b comparison necessarily, but I was like, oh, bro. Ha, that sounds like brother.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

I can tell what it is.

Lilly:

No, I very much appreciated that because I made it very easy to follow.

Sara:

It did, it did make it easy to follow. Yes. But so my problem with this scene was, well, essentially Laney goes to the skin changers and is like, grandpa Rad is coming for you guys. If he, he can possess skin changers if he possesses. An old skin changer. He's gonna do a lot of damage. And the queen of the skin changers, Tam is like, well, he helped us a lot in previous times, so I'm not sure if I believe you only, it turns out they've already captured Grandpa Rad and do believe Lainey, but we don't know that until much later. And so I spent a lot of the time going, well, why are you,

Lilly:

Yeah, the, the

Sara:

why are you behaving this way

Lilly:

the scene where they're like, it's impossible to know which one of you to believe, so you must have a trial by combat. And it's like, okay. so they just whip out Grandpa Red who has possessed a skin changer, and they're like, we have no way of knowing what his motives are in this land. And it's like he, he's right there.

Sara:

Who has possessed a skin changer. And also they had imprisoned him. Like they weren't just letting him walk around, do stuff kind of the way I thought they would if they, you know, didn't believe that he was doing bad things.

Lilly:

the, the way I eventually have sussed this out is that maybe they were kind of playing, not playing both sides, but playing it close to the chest with Grandpa Rad because they knew that they wouldn't be able to stop him in outright aggression. And so they're like, yeah, sure. We totally believe you. You can stay here. Go sit in that room.

Sara:

I mean, the, so my understanding of it was that they didn't believe grandpa at it all, but they knew that they couldn't like stop him. And so, yeah, so they, they do

Lilly:

So they don't tell him

Sara:

in that, But they kind of do, I mean like they trap him in that room. He is trapped in that room. We see from his perspective and he's like, I can't, there's nothing that I can access from

Lilly:

but it's still with the veneer of politeness, they're all pretending to be, it's all, it's all political bullshit.

Sara:

I would disagree there. I think the only veneer of politeness and political bullshit is what Lainey sees. Like I don't think that Grandpa Rad

Lilly:

that's so stupid, and I see that's, I hope that's not the case because I would really hate that.

Sara:

but either way I like, I, I do think that they recognize that they need le to deal with him. It just kind of happens in a convoluted way and I'm like, surely there was something better you could have done, guys, guys.

Lilly:

also when they have them start this trial by combat where it's, well, it's trial by combat, but it's really a trial of which one of them does their God favor more, and they have this like complex blood ritual where the god of fairness or whatever is gonna adjudicate and make sure that everyone follows the rules. Good. Great. The rules were such a load of bullshit. I thought the loophole was going to be. I don't remember the exact verbiage off the top of my head, but it's like they're not supposed to exit the fighting ring until the end of the trial. Right. It does not say, you are not allowed to exit the ring. It says you will not exit the ring or else this will happen. So I thought it was, there's gonna be some like rules lawyering of, and technically you didn't say I couldn't, you just said that I wouldn't and that clearly was wrong. And then also of course, it was a blood oath. The Grandpa Rad had possessed a skin changer, so it wasn't his blood, so it didn't mean anything. And that was so obvious to me. did LA not notice? And if she did, why didn't she say anything?

Sara:

I mean, I don't know. I, I didn't necessarily have that hangup with it. Just'cause I, by that point I was, I was into the whole scene, so I was like, okay, sure. But Lainey also, for all that, she knows a lot. She's still learning.

Lilly:

Hmm.

Sara:

So I would absolutely believe that she doesn't recognize something until after it happens. And then she's like, oh yeah. In retrospect, real obvious.

Lilly:

the other thing that really bothered me is that it's introduced as there will be one trial, and if the outcome is unclear, then there will be a second trial. They just declare Grandpa Rad, the winner of the first trial, and then they're like, okay. Time for the second one?

Sara:

No. No. They declare Lainey the winner of the first trial. Yes.

Lilly:

Hmm.

Sara:

Lainey wins that first

Lilly:

Hold on. Where's the page? I didn't write down the page number.

Sara:

Grandpa Rad wins the second one because he possesses the adjudicator

Lilly:

that it's himself. Yeah.

Sara:

and says that it's himself. Yeah,

Lilly:

Which that was, that was fun. Hijinks that I didn't have a problem with.

Sara:

that was great. Hijinks.

Lilly:

1 94.

Sara:

Yeah, see two on page 2 0 3. The game of changes is done. I declare the winner, miscellaneous admissible stones.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

she changes into a, a three-headed coyote. And he is basically a fantasy kangaroo. And her coyote beats up the kangaroo.

Lilly:

Regardless. There's not supposed to be a second trial if you know who the winner is from the first trial,

Sara:

I did, yes. I, I was not actually expecting there to be a second trial.

Lilly:

well, of course there was gonna be a second trial, but why would you make that up? If you're gonna completely ignore it, just say there's gonna be two. Like why even have that in there? And I also, like they spent so long we, you keep calling this a scene. This was not a scene, this was like five fucking chapters of this trial

Sara:

it's not a scene. It is, it is a, like the, the midpoint.

Lilly:

one whole chapter is spent establishing the rules that mean nothing.

Sara:

I don't think they, they mean quite

Lilly:

Absolutely nothing. Every single one of them is broken on purpose by either the Skin Changers or Grandpa Rad.

Sara:

I want to. Yeah. So, okay. I'm, I'm looking at the page and it does say they, they compete into games, but in the specifics it says they compete in the second games. Should the outcome of the game of changes prove unclear?

Lilly:

and it wasn't, she was the winner. They should have at least said a tie if they wanted to go to the second game.

Sara:

They, they

Lilly:

Or not have that in there at all. They made up the rules. If they wanted it to be a fight to the death, just make it a fight to the death, because clearly they just wanted Lainey to kill Grandpa Rad. Like eventually I have like, that becomes obvious. Everything they have said is a lie. For whatever reason they're doing a weird roundabout way. So then just do that. Like what is, what is the benefit of like setting up this weird system that no one is gonna follow except for Lainey to her detriment

Sara:

Laney, yes. Poor Laney. She tries to follow the rules.

Lilly:

that even the people running the thing aren't following them.

Sara:

I think the thing that I was sad about most about this, you are right, it's not a scene, this, this portion of the

Lilly:

Huge sequin of events that amounts to nothing.

Sara:

this, this sequence of events. I don't, I wouldn't say it amounts to

Lilly:

All it does is raise the stakes. Like nothing actually happens. It just goes, it makes you go at the end. Wow. I hate Grandpa Rad even more. And Elany is even more sad and upset now.

Sara:

It, it does raise the stakes, but we get, we get Kara Mora who's great and he's worth it just, just for that. But I, there's a, like a time jump after the end of the of this sequence where Lainey is and Dure are just like suddenly on a floating boat or a flying boat with Kraken. And we hear about the end results of like, after, so Tam turns into a dragon and fights Grandpa Rad. But Grandpa Rad takes over her.

Lilly:

the queen of the skin changers, although they don't really call her that. That's effectively her title. Yeah,

Sara:

Yes. I mean the, he people call her the, like the witch queen or whatever. But the skin changers don't necessarily call her that. so she joins the fight against Grandpa Rad. He eventually takes her over and he steals her egg, which is very important. Like she's trying to birth a new skin changer

Lilly:

it's a skin changer thing where it's lots of magic.

Sara:

yeah, basically, and he wants to use it to power a flying house. But then we just suddenly jump to Laney and Ry and Kraken chasing him in Skoki or in Sk mot Matt.

Lilly:

Actually think it's should be pronounced, Matt. That was just my point, that it should be SC Mott.

Sara:

And I kind of wanted to see more of like how Laney and the Skin changers deal with the facts that there. The skin changer. Queen is dead. All of her, like high priests and powerful. The other most powerful skin changers are severely wounded.

Lilly:

Most of them died. Lainey brought most of them back

Sara:

Yes. like, what are they gonna do now? Their, their society has been upended. And we just kind of gloss over that and, and I would've liked to see a little bit

Lilly:

further. Trivializing the whole thing. I really love this book. Like nothing about the Skin Changer trial worked for me in any way.

Sara:

I really love this book. I did still enjoy the Skin Changer trial, but I agree with some of your complaints about it.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean there was like a lot of cool world building stuff. The skin changers themselves are really interesting. They're different enough from humans and like learning about that and the different, like ways they've sort of clashed culturally was really interesting. But that was all the intro and then everything that actually happened just mm-hmm,

Sara:

It, it did feel a little useless.

Lilly:

mm-hmm. Almost as useless as Retin was during that whole time period. But that's because he's an enemy of the state, because he is a. Amalgamation of Retin himself and a bunch of skee ice wizards who are war criminals for stealing all of the skin changer babies to use as batteries generally frowned upon.

Sara:

much like what grandpa Rad is trying to

Lilly:

Exactly. Yeah. He's trying to do the same thing.

Sara:

the Ice Wizards did that. And Grandpa Rad fought them the first time around and now he has become them.

Lilly:

I can hear a car alarm or something.

Sara:

You can hear birds. All of my door, all of my doors are closed. You can hear birds.

Lilly:

Some loud ass birds.

Sara:

I can't do anything about that.

Lilly:

right. No, that's delightful.

Sara:

those are, those are

Lilly:

Knowing it's birds does make it better though. Like,'cause then they're just like, oh, I'm birds. Even if it does not sound any better through the headphones. Anyway, back to Grandpa Rad. It becomes obvious that I, radiant Stones did not fight the Ice Wizards in order to help the skin changers in any way.

Sara:

Uh, no. Absolutely

Lilly:

personal gain and just said that he was helping them because why not didn't hurt. Because yeah, he just immediately does exactly what they were doing.'cause all he cares about is himself

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

but crashing. I loved that character. The vibes were terrible. I, it was amazing.

Sara:

he was. He was so bad. I mean, you call him in our notes, you call him trash fill Andes, and I would a hundred percent agree.

Lilly:

not a villain, but like that kind of, it's the bad boy energy.

Sara:

He is not a villain, he's a trash villain. Like he, in the first book, he was definitely an antagonist. I don't remember the first book, but I got, I got that from, you know, the context that we get in this one. And he doesn't necessarily want to work with Lainey, it's just the ice wizards in him are like really enamored of her power.

Lilly:

it was implied that Retin also liked her. No, we think it was only the influence of the Ice wizards.

Sara:

to me it was implied that it was the ice wizards, like 99%. But because he, before he takes the Ice Wizards in, he's not even willing to like let her heal him. He, he is going to be so stubborn when she tries to bring him and bring him back from the death that he will not allow it because it's a Stones doing it.

Lilly:

Well, okay. Yeah. But then he gets to know her and falls in love with her just like Mac Mock.

Sara:

pretty, I'm pretty sure that's like 99% of the ice

Lilly:

That's interesting because in his, in the sections that follow him more closely, the book did definitely like specify, like the ice wizards don't subsume him the way a Radiant Stones was doing. Like they exist in harmony with him. Or if not harmony, but like, you know, collusion.

Sara:

But they, it also makes the point that he is very much, even though he's not subsumed and still kind of as an individual, he's an amalgamation while they're in him. Like the, the narration makes the point of saying, that was the last time Lainey spoke with Rein. Whatever his last Manden

Lilly:

Yes, but when we get his internal moments, the narration differentiates between him and the ice wizards. Are we supposed to believe that the narration also can't tell the difference? Because that's a stretch, I think.

Sara:

No, I, I don't think so, but I do think that he is being influenced by them and doesn't necessarily realize, like at the very end when the ice wizards have been take taken out of him again and he's just refusing to talk to

Lilly:

Yeah, because he wanted to keep them and she took them away against his wishes. His wishes. He's mad at her.

Sara:

Yeah, sure. But like, I don't know if, if it feels okay, I was gonna make the argument that it feels like if he liked her that much, you shouldn't be that mad at her. But that's a terrible argument. He has the right to be, to be that mad at her. She did the right thing, but, but I can understand his being

Lilly:

I don't think he would be as creepy, obsessed with her if it weren't for the Ice Wizards, but I think he like grew to appreciate her as a person because the Ice wizards influenced him to give her a chance. How

Sara:

I still think that it was mostly the ice wizards, but maybe not entirely the ice

Lilly:

dare you imply that anyone could hang out with Lainey and not fall in love with her?

Sara:

That's true. You are

Lilly:

really the best argument.

Sara:

you're right. I take it all back. You with that, with that argument. You have convinced me

Lilly:

She is wonderful and everyone knows it.

Sara:

It's true. You are so right. I can't even

Lilly:

No. Anyway, all of that to throw to say reins like, yeah, d not obsession, but kind a little bit of, I dunno, it's a very, like, that's a very dark romance plot line.

Sara:

He is creepily obsessed with her. It is a dark romance plot line. I was kind of here for it. I mean, he's definitely a trash villain. He's a redeem. He is one of the redeemed trash villains, like that's his flavor of trash villain, the kind of trash villain who has to work with the

Lilly:

Yes. And I love how everyone was creeped out by it, except for Lainey, who was like, I can use this to my advantage.

Sara:

LA's just so great. I love her so much.

Lilly:

Oh, incredible. I, I just, I loved all of that and especially mock who got all, uh. Uh, protective over her. I'm usually not into protectiveness, but he is so, like, it's so like,

Sara:

He is sweet about it. He's not overbearing.

Lilly:

and it's not, I don't think Lainey can protect herself. It's, I think you're gross,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

which is important, right? When the protectiveness is effectiveness, this person is too weak to protect themselves, so I must do it. That's gross. But when it's no, I just really don't like you.

Sara:

Yeah. It's, it's not, it's absolutely not. Laney can't handle this. It's, I just think you're gross. So I'm gonna make that very clear.

Lilly:

And yeah, and also doesn't actually interfere. He just does the, he does that thing where he's like, very loudly says, or not loudly, but you know, metaphorically said. He's so obviously looking at you all the time, and she's like, he can hear you. And he says, good. Then hobo, ugh. Everything, everything. I loved both of those characters for such different reasons, and having that little interaction was like, ugh.

Sara:

yes. Agreed. A hundred percent. Just all of the relationships in this book are so excellent. Like, I love the relationship that Mac has with Ry and Tanin, who, like, the three of them kind of have a romantic triad. The relationship between RAD and Sosa, who was the previous Blood Royal?

Lilly:

Not just pre, I mean two generations at least. Right. It's like, it's like a great, great grandfather or something.

Sara:

I will follow your lead in

Lilly:

I'm pretty sure it's been a while.

Sara:

Yeah. Actually'cause, because Grandpa Rad has been dead for a while. So yes, I think you were correct. And Lainey and her longing for Hawken. Who is Krakens, like older brother? Well, they're triplets. I don't know if he is, I don't know who is older or not, but silent and, and studious brother.

Lilly:

And even her like kind of weirdness with reaching out to her ex'cause she needs their help getting Hawkin to her because she needs Hawkin's help with the skee. Even just that like, I wouldn't call it longing, but, so there's a little bit of longing. They, they were still into each other, but Elany got banished and so,

Sara:

there's definitely longing there. Laney's just also really mad at

Lilly:

well, again, I think Lynn is the one who banished her. Lear Lear, is the one who banished her.

Sara:

Yes they

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Mm-hmm. They did, they did banish her. And she's mad at about it.

Lilly:

that or a death sentence. I believe so. Like I get it. But

Sara:

Lira did the best they could, but also Laney's still mad about it, which is

Lilly:

so. Yeah. But all of it is so, so good. Oh my gosh. If crashing itched the trash villain itch for me, I Radiant stones and Socha bracken, wild itched, the toxic relationship needs in me. They were so awful. Just always egging each other on. I mean, they're super villains. They were the, I mean they're not super villains, you know, they just horrible king and lover.'cause they weren't married. They each had wives.

Sara:

I'm not sure the book leaves. It kind of nebulous whether or not they actually ever had a. Physical, romantic relationship. I would argue they definitely had an emotional, romantic relationship.

Lilly:

I mean, it doesn't go out and say like, and then I sucked his penis,

Sara:

It doesn't, no. I mean, it, it doesn't, it doesn't make it explicit. You can read into it what you want. I agree. They probably were, but it doesn't, you know, say for sure.

Lilly:

I get like, we don't see them kiss on the page, but like they shared a bed,

Sara:

Did they share a

Lilly:

I'm pretty sure

Sara:

I don't remember them sharing

Lilly:

in the, I'm pretty sure that was their tent. We, and we have like a, a dream that a Radiant Stones has, grandpa Rad

Sara:

I thought that was social's tent.

Lilly:

maybe. I did not think that that was tentative at all. I thought it was clear that they, because it even says like, neither of them got jealous that the other one had a wife. Like it's, they were definitely in a relationship.

Sara:

Right. I'm just saying it wasn't necessarily a physical one.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

I, I think we're just coming to relationships from a different

Lilly:

Sure. Do. Do you agree that it was a romantic one though?

Sara:

yes. They absolutely had a romantic relationship. I just don't necessarily know if it was a physical, romantic

Lilly:

Okay. Sure.

Sara:

but like yes. They, they were in some kind of romantic relationship.

Lilly:

they were just roommates.

Sara:

They were.

Lilly:

They weren't just really good friends.

Sara:

they were not just rumors,

Lilly:

Yeah. Okay. How much kissing happened? You're correct. Is not explicitly told to us on the page. That seems like not the point though.

Sara:

but they did have a relationship. Yes, we agree on that point. So we have not talked about stripes, but I just wanna say how much I loved stripes and I was very sad when stripes got blown up and then very, very happy when the book ended with stripes Coming back is a, a little bitty kitty.

Lilly:

Oh my gosh. The summoning, the little baby kitten well, at the end as the epilogue was just, ugh. So sweet.

Sara:

I, I cried at that point'cause I was like, stripes. You're back.

Lilly:

I was pretty upset when Stripes died. Just because the first half of the book spends so much time building him up as like he's the flying carpet. But

Sara:

He is Laney's buddy. Yeah, I just, I like, I love stripes.

Lilly:

I think that to me is like a good example of this book. Like it builds up a very good character that is an like, just an absolute quirk, right? This is, she brings to life a tiger rug because she needs it to fly. She needs to fly away on it to escape something in the first book and. This rug ends up developing a personality because she's so connected with all of the beings that she raises from the dead. And, they are companions. And then he dies protecting her from Grandpa Rad in the trial, which

Sara:

The real reason why you didn't like the trials?

Lilly:

it's because it didn't hit okay. You know, Laney's not gonna die. She's the main character, right? And so I was like, okay, so who is going to die? Because, you know, she's not gonna beat Grandpa Rad. Here it is, only halfway through the book. I just, yeah, I think it had, like, it did nothing. Had zero stakes. So I was like, so what is going to be taken away to try to convince me that this was important? Is it dure or is it stripes or is it rein? But we didn't really care about rein yet, so he wasn't really on the chopping block.

Sara:

I mean, I'm glad that it was stripes and not du Ry, but.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Because Stripes was the one who could come back easier.

Lilly:

Yeah. It just I dunno, everything about that felt like it was only happening for a narrative purpose and like, not, I didn't, I dunno.

Sara:

No, I, I get what you're saying. I don't disagree, but we've talked a lot about that and coming back, coming back to Stripes and how he is the best boy.

Lilly:

And so I like was upset on many levels when Stripes died. And, but then of course Lainey can bring him back because she's an groman.

Sara:

I actually wasn't expecting it though because he is so blown up.

Lilly:

Oh yeah. Like obliterated.

Sara:

Yeah. And so I was not, and we don't see him until the epilogue and so I was not expecting him to come back. I thought he was just another casualty of Grandpa Rad.

Lilly:

I also thought there might be real consequences. Especially when I don't Was it stripes? No. There was something else that Lainey had raised and like borrowed its powers and Grandpa Rad consumes it. Was it, was it stripes in that moment and she like loses use of her left arm for the rest of that sequence.

Sara:

It's not, it's not stripes, but that might be she has a, like a bag of bones in this battle and he does something with some of the bones.

Lilly:

And it says in the, in the text, it said for the first time, like the essence she had lent, it didn't return to her. It was just gone. And I was like, oh fuck, is this like a permanent injury that she now has to live with? And then we get the time, skip, no, everything's fine. So I was like, oh, okay. Nothing matters. Gotcha. Only a matter of time for stripes, which I am happy about. I love stripes, but his death and reanimation does kind of feed into what I did not care for about the trial.

Sara:

I see where you're coming from and I just don't care because I was so sad when Stripes died and so happy when Stripes came back.

Lilly:

He was so delightful. And this is like the second cat book that we've read in a row. And I was really enjoying undead. Cat. Rug.

Sara:

He, he just, he wants to pounce on things and he loves Lainey and also loves how Lainey is scared of heights and he thinks that he can protect her by doing big dives. And he was just so cute. He was so

Lilly:

precious, very much like if a cat came back to life as a, like a undead superpower,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Oh, oh. And then the little kitten, but it was still, so I was thinking maybe she would bring something back, but then like it wouldn't quite be stripes. Right. But it was, it seems like he had his memories and everything and that was very touching.

Sara:

Yeah. It seemed like it was stripes and that made me happy because I don't wanna stripe substitute, I just want stripes.

Lilly:

could have been emotionally challenging in another way, but,

Sara:

It could have been. If they had spent some time dealing with that kind of issue in the next book, I would've been okay with it eventually,

Lilly:

but that would've been a lot darker. And for all of the death and hardships that happen in this book, they don't really happen to Lainey in her close circle.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, I would say that this is still generally like an uplifting book. It's not grim dark or

Lilly:

No, it's a very optimistic book. It like the heroes are gonna win and, it just goes a little farther with how, how far, how low they can go before it comes back up. Because Lainey does have ways of fixing things. I did love underwear too. Underwear, stones.

Sara:

We didn't see a lot of undies, but undies is also the greatest.

Lilly:

He is the wolf that Lainey brings back to life for her niece, Derah. And he's called underwear'cause that's what he eats. He's undead. He doesn't need to eat to survive. He just eats them'cause he loves them. And my cats definitely like drag underwear around the house. And it's the worst, but also delightful.

Sara:

The pugs don't do any of that. They, the closest that they get is Mr. Squeak likes to chew on my slippers. She's got lots of toys, but she likes the slippers

Lilly:

yeah, all of the companion characters are very sweet. Loved how much of Ry we saw. We didn't talk about her much, but I really liked her relationship with Lainey. Like they've clearly gotten so close over this adventure.

Sara:

Yeah, it, it was a really great, supportive relationship. And I loved all of it. I just, it's a good book. I just really liked this

Lilly:

All of the characters were incredible.

Sara:

Yeah. Even the ones that, that we hate, they're still incredible. I love to hate

Lilly:

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even when we did, when we did get to see more of Grandpa Rads, like history in his relationship with Socha I, you know, I'm a sucker for romance, so I was like, yes, give me more.

Sara:

I mean, I would read the Toxic Romance trilogy between Grandpa Rad and Sosa.

Lilly:

Hell yeah. we got a little bit, and I mean, he's gone now, so we might not actually get any more memories outta him, but

Sara:

Yeah, and, and that's partially why I have trouble figuring out like how this is going to be a trilogy.

Lilly:

true. He was sort of the big bad, huh?

Sara:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like this book feels like it wraps things up so nicely that I don't see where a third, I'm not arguing about having a third book. I would love to read a third book that's just Laney exploring the world. I'm here for that, but it doesn't feel like that would be a trilogy. It feels like that would be, you know, a tangential sequel.

Lilly:

big unfinished business is Stones manner. I think she's gonna reclaim Stones manner.

Sara:

Okay.

Lilly:

home. As much as she hate, I guess she didn't even hate her family. She's too nice for that. As much as her family was hateable, she did love her home.

Sara:

I mean, I could, I could see the final book being about getting back to her home country and getting her manner back. I still don't necessarily see how that would tie in as a trilogy because those events still feel separate enough. But I'm not, again, I'm not complaining about how we get more of, of this series

Lilly:

think it's connected. It was on, I say as if that's a for sure thing that what's gonna happen. Watch it be absolutely nothing like that, but it could work. Right? It's introduced in the first book. I mean, the first book deals quite a bit with. Trying to keep the manner people trying to manipulate her so that she can keep like using it as a bargaining chip. And it's been on the back burner in this book, but her banishment was still definitely like a relevant plot point.

Sara:

Her banishment still is. So I could see the banishment thread tying the three books together, but like, who's gonna be the villain? What, what is the villain that relates back to book one now that Grandpa Rad did? I don't know. I look forward to finding out.

Lilly:

Yes. And then maybe it's something completely different, but that's what I think it's going to be. It's whatever. Someone pulled a little bit of a fast one to actually get them out of the house. I don't remember who was it? This Hawkins mother.

Sara:

I don't, I don't remember it all.

Lilly:

Anyway, I can't wait to read it. Maybe I'll remember anything from this book when we do.

Sara:

Maybe I will actually reread books one and two before book three comes out. This

Lilly:

Ooh. Optimistic.

Sara:

I love, I love the series. It would not be a hardship. I should have done it for this one. I just didn't have the time.

Lilly:

Yeah, that's the problem. And like that's the problem with series. I loved the first

Sara:

that's, I think that's, the problem with doing a book podcast that requires we read a book a

Lilly:

even. Okay. Even then though, that's a big time commitment that you're asking of people. Not just read these three books, but read the first one three times.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I just said, unless they're all together. But you don't want people to wait because you want them to buy the first two. Like it's uh,

Sara:

I mean, you are, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Like, it's, that's one of the troubles with the publication industry,

Lilly:

Mm.

Sara:

right? Like you can't, it's hard to keep the readership for a trilogy or a series in

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. At least with the trilogy, we know it's gonna end, no surprise, two extra books, which I would probably be okay with, but,

Sara:

Yeah, actually, like, honestly, with, with Lainey in this world, I want those surprise two extra books. Like give them to me some

Lilly:

would feel like a different, I, I think that it would be a different story and not just trying to stretch out the planned story, you know?

Sara:

Yeah. I, I, I don't think that that would happen with this, but there are some stories where I'm like, no, a trilogy's all I need, but with this world and with uni's writing and with like Lainey as a character, I just, I want all of it.

Lilly:

Absolutely.

Sara:

Give me all of

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!