Fiction Fans

Author Interview: The Fall is All There Is by C. M. Caplan

• Episode 189

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Your hosts welcome C.M. Caplan on to the podcast to chat about The Fall Is All There Is, book one in his scifi/fantasy trilogy Four of Mercies. They talk about his world building process, complicated family dynamics, and unsatisfying violence.


Find more from Connor:

https://bsky.app/profile/cmcaplanwrites.bsky.social


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

And welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I'm so pleased to welcome back CM Kaplan onto the podcast to talk about the fall is all there is. It's nice to have you back on Connor.

Connor:

Yeah, it's always great to be on this podcast.

Lilly:

And for some reason you keep coming back. So,

Connor:

Yeah, you guys are very lovely to talk to. You should be more boring if you don't want me to be here.

Lilly:

well, before we jump into talking about the book that we, we read for this evening, and you wrote presumably for this evening so that you

Connor:

Oh yeah,

Lilly:

the podcast. Yeah,

Connor:

yeah. Specifically I was like, I need an, I need another excuse to talk to you guys.

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

Yeah. So what's, what's the hook?

Lilly:

First. First. What is something great that happened recently? Sarah, I'm gonna pick on you because you should have known this was coming.

Sara:

I should have known it was coming and I did in fact know it was coming and I actually for once, have something prepared. My good thing is that I spent some time in the garden weeding, and it's been a while since I've done that. And it's amazing how much better bits of the yard look when they are weeded.

Connor:

Incredible.

Lilly:

It is so like zen and productive at the same time.

Sara:

Yes. You feel, you feel so good when you're done with it. This is not a thing that I ever thought or that that like 15-year-old Sarah ever thought she would be saying. But I really enjoy weeding my garden.

Connor:

It is like a level of like, I'm exhausted, but it's also like I feel so productive. Like, oh wow. I've done a tangible thing that you can see the difference I've made.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I think that's it. Yeah. You can see the change.

Connor:

Yeah.

Sara:

And we are still in the sweet spot for weather for me right now where the yard is not too soggy to work in, but it's also not, the ground is not too hard to do anything. Like in another couple of weeks I'm not gonna be able to weed because my ground turns to clay. So it, yeah, it was, it was lovely. pleased.

Lilly:

Connor, how about you?

Connor:

I recently started a beginner adult Hebrew class learning how to read it. And it's the weirdest, most incredible experience of having to learn a completely new alphabet. I,

Lilly:

That's awesome.

Connor:

yeah.

Sara:

Of fun.

Connor:

my favorite thing so far is we had, I literally just got back from it like an hour before I hopped on this recording here. And one of the most I learned there's a letter in the Hebrew alphabet that's called Final M, which is the letter M when it comes at the end of a word, and it's its own kind of m and they call it final M, which is the most amusing thing to me.

Lilly:

That's incredible. Now, you did introduce this as an adult Hebrew class, so I assume you are learning how to talk dirty in Hebrew.

Connor:

Oh, obviously,

Lilly:

Yeah,

Connor:

No, it's 18 plus. Yeah. There's a little strict at the start of it.

Lilly:

You know, we all have our very specific passions.

Connor:

Oh, no. Listen, some, some of those letters do be looking. I can't even finish.

Lilly:

Well,

Connor:

some of them can get it, some of those letters that they are,

Lilly:

well, my good thing is sort of along the line of Sarah's in that I, I did a, a tangible project that I could see progress on, but mine is more cool because I used a nail gun today.

Connor:

that's incredible. That's actually the best out of all three things.

Lilly:

Oh, I know. It is really heavy. So I was only able to get the nails that like I could reach because I can't hold it over my head. Or at least not well, but

Connor:

Yeah, that's, I imagine that's inadvisable.

Lilly:

well it's fine. It's, I can't hold it steady while it's that high up and like if I want the nail to go where it's supposed to.

Connor:

Yeah. I imagine you're not nailing the ceiling.

Lilly:

Yeah. No, that's next. But yeah, we did some, did some good construction progress on our house. It was very exciting.

Connor:

Oh, that's fun.

Lilly:

What is everyone drinking this evening?

Sara:

I have some whiskey. I'm not getting any limbs amputated. Not to not, not to, not to

Lilly:

Not that that happens in the book or anything.

Sara:

yeah, not to spoil a scene in this book. But I am drinking whiskey.

Connor:

yeah. Completely. Irrespective of any amputations. Obviously those two things never go together.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

certainly, certainly not in this book.

Connor:

Yeah, no, that could never happen. I have nothing I. I, because I was five minutes late and was, and completely forgot this, so I'm just.

Lilly:

Well, I was about to go refill my boxed red wine, which happens to be what I'm drinking this evening. If you wanted to go grab a glass of water or anything that you please, we could have a slight intermission. other than the delightful book we're about to discuss at length, has anyone read anything good lately?

Sara:

I've just been doing podcast reading, which is a terrible answer for this question.

Connor:

It's just podcast reading. Just these dumb, horrible books.

Sara:

No, no, no. That's not what I mean. It's just that podcast reading, because we talk about it on the podcast, it doesn't count for the purpose of this question.

Connor:

Okay. Yeah, no, that, that's fair. I'm sorry. That's such a mean thing to suggest. You would say.

Lilly:

yeah. We're about to talk about this book for at least half an hour. It doesn't need also to be in the intro.

Connor:

Fair?

Lilly:

I started reading Soit submissions for our spring issue of Solstice, our literary magazine, Eagle Eared listeners will realize that it comes out very soon,

Connor:

Incredible

Lilly:

so,

Sara:

month,

Lilly:

yeah, gotta gotta do some more of that soon.

Sara:

you and me both.

Connor:

that sounds like it's, it's gonna be really fun.

Lilly:

It is really fun. I just have to do it.

Connor:

Yeah, no, I get that. It's,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Connor:

it's probably not gonna make the cut for the, the final recording, but we were just talking about working bursts and everything. Instead of working every day. I'm currently reading the left Hand of Darkness for the first time, and I'm, why didn't I read this sooner? It's so good. Oh my God. I was not prepared for how good Ursula Kayla Gwyn was gonna be. I mean, I'd read some Earth Sea in the past, but this is just like, it's like this ho. This man is a horrible. Horrible misogynist and does not know it, but it keeps getting him into trouble. And I assume eventually he is gonna realize that this is an issue for him because it's Ursula, Kayla Gwen. All everyone said about it was that it was gonna be involve like a society of people who are very vaguely androgynous and it makes the narrator feel weird and uncomfortable, and he has to unpack a lot of that. But I didn't know there was gonna be like, weird court intrigue and interplanetary court politics and things like that and like. I think Taoism or something like that like, like philosophy and things like that, that like, weaves together in this absolutely gorgeous way. And I need to read everything from the in this whole OR series immediately.

Sara:

I had no idea that it involved court intrigue either, and now I need to go out and get this.

Connor:

It's so good. Sarah. I wasn't, I was not ready for it to be as good as it was.

Sara:

I am not surprised. It is Ursula, Kayla, Gwyn,

Connor:

Yeah. I, mean, here's the

Sara:

I need it.

Connor:

Here's the thing. I, I, I knew it was gonna be good because Ursula, Kali Gwyn has never written anything bad. But also I wasn't, I didn't know how good good was gonna be.

Lilly:

Well, we'll have to add it to the

Connor:

great.

Sara:

We, we will have to add it to the list.

Connor:

Yeah.

Lilly:

but we're not actually here to talk about Urs La Kali g Guin. Tonight we're here to talk about CM Kaplan,

Sara:

Yes. Spec

Lilly:

author

Sara:

specifically. The fall is all there is. Before we begin, Connor, can you give us an elevator pitch for this book?

Connor:

Oh God. I didn't know I was gonna be asked to do this. Okay.

Sara:

That's a

Lilly:

is an interview baby.

Connor:

It's the weirdest. Thing you'll ever read. It's absolutely batshit. It involves the youngest in a set of royal quadruplets who his father dies and his sister is like, we need you back home to resolve like succession and swear and oath of fealty to me. And he's doesn't wanna go home.'cause he ran away from home when he was 18. It's been five years. And he is like, I'm done with you people. But then he kind of gets roped into doing that and things are not what they seem. And then there's a lot of a sort of like, success, like, basically he has to figure out how to avert a civil war for succession where each of his siblings want them to sort of, be loyal to their side. And also there are swords that are with, that are like lightsabers that are with a battery made of like human thyroid and there are cyborg courses and just a bunch of weird shit.

Lilly:

I was gonna say, everything you said about that book is true just now but doesn't touch on the like crazy setting that you have built. And it really makes me wonder like, what genre do you call this book?

Connor:

I would like to think it's my own sort of thing, but that feels a bit arrogant to say.

Lilly:

It can be your own sort of thing. You do have to name it though. I'm

Connor:

The, the, the simplest way I could describe it is science fantasy. It's like, it's just a fusion of a, a bunch of different stuff, but then there's also elements of like body horror a little bit. And just someone wants to describe the technology in this world as wet wear technology, which is the opposite of hardware technology. I think that's an actual term, but I, I don't act, I'm not confident about that. The, the best way I could sum it up in a specific genre would be science fantasy. Since it does sort of combine both.

Sara:

it is definitely very genre blurring. Sometimes, sometimes when we ask this question for of an author, I have a better idea of what I consider it. And for this book specifically, I'm like, I really don't know. Because there are fantasy elements, there are sci-fi elements. It's just this unique blend.

Connor:

I appreciate that. The, the closest analogy I can have for what it's do its relationship to genre is probably dune in terms of like, it's technically probably if you really had to pigeonhole it would probably be a sci-fi world. But at the same time, it really, it, it does a lot with fantasy tropes and characteristics and everything as a lot of, like, the world is very feudalistic and old fashioned and everything, but then there's lots of weird like, pieces of technology that are very clearly rooted in like the sort of sci-fi lens and everything like that.

Lilly:

It is also, and you covered this by using a real word, like body horror. But in my definition, I would call it ey gooey.

Connor:

I like that better actually. That's much better

Lilly:

Yeah.

Connor:

that that gets away from the sort of David Cronenberg type stuff and really, really delves deep into the sort of like, it's, it's just the stuff that's gonna make you squeamish, but not necessarily people going through, that's not the really horrifying horror stuff.

Lilly:

it's gooey. Yeah.

Connor:

Right. Yeah, I like

Sara:

very, yeah, very, very ooey gooey. I'm not sure I would call it horror body horror. Yes. I, I can see that. Ooey gooey, definitely.

Connor:

I like that a lot.

Lilly:

They're, they're different and I can't quite like, articulate why those

Sara:

But they are.

Connor:

Yeah, no, they're very, very different.'cause like body horror suggests something that's just sort of like, you see, and it's like, it lives in like a very specific part of you. There's just like, ugh, like, like really, really freaks you out, like this bone deep terror. Whereas ey gooey is the sort of thing that's like, ooh, it's like, it's, it's a different sort of ooh sound that you're making, but it, it's like slightly different where it's like, it's not quite the bone deep terror of, of, of like your whole body being reconstructed in some weird way or some, some kind of freaky thing like that. But it's, it just kind of makes you like wince instead. Instead,

Sara:

I think ooey gooey sometimes just happens to involve body parts, whereas body horror like is predicated on the horror of things changing in your body kind of involuntarily.

Connor:

Yes. Okay. I like that. I like that a lot. Yes. Yeah. That's not specifically a character that's undergoing a weird, sort of like horrific transformation. It's just an element of the world that's just like, Ooh, no, I don't like that

Lilly:

have to imagine that the characters hear a lot of squishing noises all of the time.

Connor:

probably. Yeah. No, it's, it's about, that's about right. There's definitely a lot more of that in book two as well.

Lilly:

You're getting ahead of us though. We are not gonna ask those questions until the spoilers section.

Connor:

Fair.

Sara:

So, I know that the fall is all there is, is not actually the original title for this book. At what point in your writing process did you choose the quote that the title comes from and that you also include at the start of the book? I.

Connor:

Really, really late in the game for a while. It was called a Trim Reckoning, which pulls from a fall staff speech from Henry the, oh God, I think Henry the fourth, part two I think. Is that the one with Hot Spur? I can't remember. One of the Henry plays. Not Henry the V.'cause Falstaff is alive in it. and it's when they're about to go to war. And Falstaff has a long speech about how like, the only people who have honor are people who are dead. Basically, it's something you get by dying in a, in a horrible battle. So he's gonna set this one out basically. And this is basically this, this, it's this, it's supposed to be vaguely comedic as well. But it's also very sort of scoundrely and that fit the vibes for what I was going with at the time. But then I wanted to change it'cause. A trim reckoning was basically like, as a title felt too opaque. Like, no, you don't see that and immediately know exactly what it's talking about.

Sara:

Disagree with you on that point, but.

Connor:

I You, you were out. It was a good title. I liked it too, and that's why I kept it for so long. But then you got out voted because too many people were just like, I don't know what that means.

Sara:

and too many people were wrong.

Connor:

That's fair. That is a fair

Sara:

the fall is, the fall is all there is, is a good title. To be clear, I just also liked the term reckon.

Connor:

I, you know, maybe I'll overuse it at some point. If I ever use it, I'll dedicate the book to you.

Sara:

Okay. I'm gonna hold you to that.

Connor:

fair. I think, I'm trying to remember how oh, so I, I, I was brainstorming different titles and I was going through different works that like, mean a lot to me and that sort of, and one of the things that was like The Lion in Winter is one of my favorite pieces of media to ever exist. Just like full stop. Just like if I ever write anything half as good as that, I could die happy. I could, I would, I would never need to write anything again because it's one of the best things in history and it's one of the best things anyone's ever created. And it's just every piece of dialogue is just such a treat. And that specific exchange of he isn't going to see me bag. And then, oh God, I'm gonna blank on the fucking line now. He's here, he got no satisfaction out of me. He isn't going to see me bag, oh, you val work fool. If the away one fell down mattered when the follows all there is, it matters. I got it. I got there. That, that, that exchange is encapsulates basically kind of the opposite of what a trim reckoning is supposed to do. But generally I liked it better because it's sort of a. Pigeonholes what the book became a true reckoning is basically the, the, the serves for, to encapsulate a completely different version of the book. And then the one they ended up writing was like, I need a better quote.'cause basically from the events of the story and everything, there's a lot of sort of falling down, falling physically and metaphorically. And at a certain point they're like, I just have to choose how this is gonna happen.

Lilly:

Well, I am very curious about some of those changes, but again, spoiler section,

Connor:

Fair.

Lilly:

you mentioned that this book. Centers around Quadruplets and Peter is our main character. the very beginning. He tells Moners a, I would say friend, confidant that Moners wouldn't understand the things that Peter is going through and his relationship with his siblings because Moners is an, is an only child. And I did feel called out in that moment as an only child because I do think that my reading experience was probably affected by that.

Connor:

All right.

Lilly:

I don't know. Have you heard any? I don't. I'm just so curious. We are a sample size of two, so I have no idea,

Connor:

Right.

Sara:

are, both only children, so,

Lilly:

I'm so curious.

Connor:

I'm, so you're asking like if I'm not sure what, what the question is.

Lilly:

Yeah, no, there wasn't a question. Really it was just how dare Peter call me out in the text in like the first chapter,

Sara:

well, but,

Connor:

That's fair. I mean.

Sara:

no, please go ahead.

Connor:

There is a point where he does mention having a sister in like chapter two, which he, she died very, very young and I don't think she gets brought up again, but so effectively he was like an only child and everything. And a for whatever it's worth, I think a lot of that is Peter bullshitting. A lot of that is like, he's, he's making some really good points and Peter doesn't want to take them seriously, so he's like, you wouldn't get, he does the thing a lot of people do when someone's making a good point, but you wanna deflect, which is you wouldn't understand. You just don't get it. And that's like, there is like speaking as a quadruplet, there are some things that like, can be difficult to understand and that, but most of it is just the way other people react to it. Mostly it's just like having siblings. It's just that sometimes other people treat you as like weirdly just sort of like. Reflective of the other. It's a lot like sometimes being a twin where there's just tropes from media that like influences people's opinions of that sort of dynamic and they can get really weird about it. Like thinking that you're especially close in some sort of weird, mystical way.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

So I agree that I think that that Peter is probably bullshitting. Some were, or most of that response. But it does, I do have to wonder because like I don't have siblings either, and so I don't really understand the relationship between Peter and his siblings at all, because it's not something that I've ever experienced. So I, I do have to wonder how that changes the reading experience for a person. Obviously, I can't answer that question. Lily can't answer that question. We both have the same reading experience, but, but I feel,

Lilly:

I think in some way it made us a blank slate, right? Because we don't have our own sibling experiences to like project onto the quadruplets in this book.

Connor:

that's actually really, sorry, go ahead.

Sara:

yeah, I don't know. I, I just think it's interesting to, to. In, in the, in the way that we as the reader bring our own experiences or lack of experiences to to a book and how that affects how we interpret things.

Connor:

That's to your point. I have seen reviews from people who have siblings that have both said, I. That this author really nails this idea of like, I love you, but I just want to strangle you. Like, I, like you mean a lot to me, but I really just, I cannot stay, I cannot be around you for more than five minutes. Like that. Like really, like there's a lot of people who see who like, hear that sort of who have siblings and hear that sort of dynamic and there's like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel. There was one time though on Reddit. Where IF there was someone who mentioned, I have no idea who this is but they mentioned that they were a triplet and they were like, yeah, my siblings are like some of the closest people in my life and I can't wait to read this book someday I won. I wonder how well he's gonna nail this idea that like, this how close you are to your siblings and everything. And I never found out what they thought of this book. I've, I've been so curious ever since.'cause I think there are some people who are really, really close to their siblings in a way that does not gel at all with this book. Who prob I I don't know if that would influence how well they click with it or don't click with it. That's, that's something I've always, I've always been kind of curious about.

Lilly:

Well, and the quadruplets in this book are fraternal, quadruplets, not identical. I is there even iden. I know with twins

Connor:

are some times, yeah, so like you, it's, it's very, very rare to have identical quadruplets me and my siblings at least. I. Me and my sister look alike, but then the other sister and the other brother are sometimes mistaken as different races as other people. They, they're much, much, they got all the Jewish genes. They're much darker than than us. My brother has people who come up to him and start speaking Spanish or Puerto Rican or sometimes Arabic.'cause people just think people look at him and they just assume he's some, some other, like race a person basically. And so he'll have, he'll be like, I don't, oh God, which language is this one? I, I don't, he only speaks English, so he doesn't know what anyone's saying to him. But he'll just, he'll just like every couple years would be like, oh yes, another person came up to me and started speaking a language. I don't know. So it was just sort of like, we do not look at all alike.'cause like, no, that would never happen to me. No one would come up to me and just be like, start speaking. Everyone's gonna be like, that's that's a white man. That is a white man. He speaks English. We would never speak anything other than English.

Sara:

So speaking of family this novel, and we don't, we don't always ask this, but this novel, the protagonist is autistic and quadruplet, and you yourself are autistic and quadruplet.

Connor:

Yeah.

Sara:

how much of yourself did you write into the story

Lilly:

It was a coincidence, right?

Connor:

No, absolutely. Complete coincidence. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No less than most people would probably expect but more than I would probably be willing to admit. There's an element, a lot of the stuff I write is flagrantly autobiographical on some level. In that, like a lot of things I end up writing is basically an attempt to explain to both myself and to people around me. Like, this is why I'm like the way I am. But at the same time, like I don't just wanna write about myself. So I end up sort of like, I take various aspects of myself and various sort of things I see happening that I want to comment on are types of being in the world. And I sort of mash them together into like Peter. It's a smart ass. That, that part that doesn't bear in relation to me. I've never run my mouth before, before thinking anything through. No. But like there, there's elements like that issues with just sort of like really jumping the gun or rushing through issues or things like that. Like those, those completely apply to me. But then on a larger scale a lot of these books are basically about I'm saying a lot. There are two so far. Basically like one of the things that the, those two all three books I've written actually is this, this idea of like, the fan fantasy as a genre has. A strain of thought that runs through it that basically is we will solve all of our problems with simply an orgy of violence. And if we just do enough violence, eventually the problem will go away or be dealt with. Or just like things will change enough that we can wrap it up in a narrative ending with like at least a decently nice little bow. And it's, that's something that is both fascinated me and something that I like to try and subvert a lot in a lot of the stuff I write. And so I'm taking some aspects of myself that, I want to interrogate in some aspects about the fantasy genre that I want to interrogate, and some just general ideas of like, the current political landscape. Seems like there's a lot of salivating for political violence and things like that where it's just like, oh, I have some thoughts about that. Let's, let's see where this goes. And just sort of like writing all of that out and just seeing what happens.

Lilly:

I couldn't help but notice, I mean, you sort of touched on this as well, that there are some similarities between Peter and the main characters in your first book, the Sword in the Street,

Connor:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I was sort of curious how much I. Did the experience of writing the sword in the street affect your experience of writing this one?

Connor:

In some ways, I think this book was an attempt to sort of, branch away from the Sword Street. Even just on a foundational level, the Sword Street is a very sort of like fantasy, medieval Europe kind of a thing. Very, very small, very self-contained sort of story in a very, sort of specific tight little community. And it, it's shorter. It involves a smaller cast of characters and everything. And I want, and basically the sword in the street is going in the opposite direction with a lot of it. But at the same time, there is that overlap of like, there's themes of autism and dysfunctional relationships and people who have never had a healthy relationship modeled for them, trying to figure out what healthy looks like and generally failing miserably. So there is a lot of that. There is a lot of that overlap. But I'm trying to go in a much as a near direction with it in, in the fall as all there is. Because I think a lot, a lot, a lot of the time with the show industry, it felt like, I think a lot of it was like it was good, but I was like, I think I can make this more creative. I think I can, I think I can make this bigger. I think I can make it, it's basically, it's touching a lot of the same themes, but I'm trying to do it at more of an 11 than I was at when I wrote it, when I was 20.

Sara:

Well, I definitely think that the fall is all there is, is a, a notch up in everything compared compared to the sword in the street, including in world building. There's a lot of really fun offbeat world building aspects to this book which we've, we've kind of touched on, but what is your favorite world building aspect or, or thing, and why is it the security plugs?

Connor:

Oh, I can trace the exact line of logic that created the security pugs.'cause I did it in your kitchen.

Sara:

Yes, I know.

Connor:

Oh, I, there there's specifically Oh, that, that was phenomenal. Just because I spent like several months living. In your house being like, I can't do a pug. There's no way, there's no place to fit it. Like, what, where am I gonna put a pug in something that's moving this quickly and going, hitting all these stops. Like I get, what do you want me to, he stops after the specific, after the bit with the whiskey and everything and then, and pets a pug on the way home. And then eventually, I think you and my fiance came up with something together where just like, you could have some like in the castle or something. And like this is also credit to the lion in winter where there's like random dogs roving throughout the castle. And I was like, huh, what if they had a camera lens for an eye? And there was specifically some sort. I remember when I was, I think like 13 or something, my brother got. Some sort of sports illustrated thing in the mail. And there was something about Bill Belichick sort of like spying on some other football person, like some, some other coach. The magazine was this mock teddy bear with one camera lens for an eye being like, I'm sorry, and like, he's still up to his shit or something like that. I have no memory of the context, but that image stuck with me. So I was like, let's just mash these things together into this weird, sort of the weirdest invention you've ever created. And that's how most of the inventions in this book sort of, came about is just this weird sort of this weird combination of a bunch of just disparate elements of the weirdest things you could ever think of just trying to mash them all together.

Lilly:

Was there any bit of tech that you came up with that wasn't able to make it into the book?

Connor:

Oh, there was, I'm trying to think if there. A lot of it is by a lot of the tech is by the seat of my pants. Just sort of coming up with whatever I can. And then just, there was, there was some, there were initially like I could name a bunch of LaMer stuff that wasn't as, as good. There was I specifically on the, the way to creating the, the science swords, the first attempt involved a chainsaw sword. But I said, no, that's been done. Can't do a chainsaw sword. As cool as that is, it's been done. People have done that one before. And then there was a sword, its vibrate. And I was like, no, that's gonna, that's gonna be way too many sex jokes, first of all.

Lilly:

You already did the sword in the streets and the sword in the sheets. You're

Connor:

Right, exactly. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't want to, I don't wanna attempt fate again. So, and that was, that has also been done. And then, and then eventually I first came up with the, the sonic guns with a, a battery made of vocal cords. And I said that to another author and they sent a GIF of someone just sort of shivering. And I was like, oh, I gotta do more of that then. And I was like, okay, I can create light sas, what part of the body produces heat? And then I looked it up and Google said it was the thyroid. So I was like, all right, cool. I'll throw that in there. And that was like, that was freaky enough where I was like, oh, I can just sort of map this out across the whole book and just throw it a bunch of weird body parts everywhere. That doesn't necessarily answer the question of, of, of I don't know if there are many cool inventions that no one's seen before that didn't make the cut, but I'm sure I'll remember one as soon as we, we ended this podcast recording.

Lilly:

Alright, we're finally there. We're gonna get to the spoiler section, but first I have a question for Sarah. Who should read this book?

Sara:

So you should read this book if you enjoyed Gideon the Ninth. But you want something with quadruplets that's a little more fantasy leaning but still has really weird world building. Weird, weird, but fun, weird, complimentary.

Lilly:

I like to think that was obvious, but doesn't hurt to specify.

Sara:

And also like if you want autistic representation Peter is an autistic named character, which is fantastic. He makes lots of bad decisions

Connor:

he's a disaster.

Sara:

way. He, he is a disaster. If you want disaster representation, he's great for that too. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So, a lot of the conflict in this book centers around communication issues between Peter and his siblings. And on the one hand I find miscommunication a very frustrating trope, but on the other hand, it was so in character for these people to not be communicating with each other that it didn't feel like the, the miscommunication plot device out of character trope it, it just felt like,

Lilly:

It wasn't arbitrary.

Sara:

yeah. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about like threading that needle?

Connor:

I think a lot of times I think this applies to tropes in general. A lot of times when people don't like a trope it's because the implementation of that trope is generally done in the sort of hacking way, or it's a way to force a conflict. I, I also don't like a lot of specifically storylines like where there's some either some sort of miscommunication or like, there's even stuff where like a character has like a secret or something, and then they get revealed like right before act three, and then they're ostracized by like, you didn't tell us about this then, then they're like, no one likes them, and then they have to come back and act three and like, save everyone or something like that. Like, or prove themselves in some sort of way. I don't even like, like even those can be frustrating, but it's like, I think

Lilly:

Okay.

Connor:

lot of the ways that like, I'm able to thread that name was just like. lot of neurodivergence involves a lot of miscommunication. And so it's like if I have this character, these characterized as these very emotionally stunted people, it would almost be feel cheaper to sort of not have that kind of miscommunication in there. And the miscommunication also can lead to this. I like to try and make, make those sort of things as delightfully infuriating as possible. so it's like I already know people don't like it. I already

Sara:

like, Peter is trying to tell you important things. Why won't you just listen to him?

Connor:

It's if, if people don't like it, then like the only real solution is to just dial that up to 11 so that it's so infuriating that it sort of shoots the moon and goes back to entertaining of like, God, fuck, like, like I need, I need people to be so upset about this, that it's like you're, you end up sort of like wanting more of it and everything, and I think that's the best sort of way I can describe the way I'm able to thread that needle.

Lilly:

Well, I think as far as the being infuriated aspect of this book goes, it also helps. This is gonna make me sound awful. Helps that Peter gets beat up a lot.

Connor:

Yeah.

Lilly:

yeah, I can see how you got yourself into this mess.

Connor:

Right. Yes. Yeah.

Lilly:

And there we mentioned be before in the nons spoiler section, we described the world building as ey, gooey, and there's also quite a bit of violence that maybe more. Crunch. Crunch, then Ooey gooey. And I am now gonna describe all books through ada, pia,

Connor:

Yes, I like this. This is a great plan.

Lilly:

And, you know, I just felt bad for Peter.

Connor:

Yeah, no, I mean it's so much fun. To just beat him up. He's just,'cause he doesn't think anything through, like he knows that like the injections he gets only brings him up to a basic competency in terms of being able to defend himself. Like he knows this and he still is going to go in over his head when he knows like these, there, there's people like twice his size and he is gonna instigate a conflict and like, and then he is surprised that, oh my God, I've been horribly, horribly brutalized. It's like, Peter makes a lot of mistakes and I don't want him to be the kind of like there's, this happens sometimes. In sci-fi fantasy stuff where characters will make mistakes and the action sequence happens and the action sequence is kind of thrilling. Like, oh, this is great. I'm having a lovely look at this dude kicking ass. This is awesome. I never want to do that. I never want to have violence happening. And you're like, this is awesome. I want you to be reading between like your fingers. Like, oh my God, what the, how is he going to get out of this alive? Why did he think this was ever go going to work? They're like, I want, anytime there's the threat of violence, I want someone to kind of wince like, this is not going to go well. Why did this person think this is going to go well?'cause in my experience, that's what violence usually feels like.

Lilly:

I am so glad you brought up the injections. Because, so Peter gets very ooey gooey injections that uh, candidly when Sarah and I were planning our, our questions, I called them the kung fu Ines injections

Connor:

I like that.

Lilly:

like teach him how to fight basically.

Connor:

Yeah.

Lilly:

and that was fascinating to me because throughout this book, and this is all in first person or the, the first person from Peter's perspective, all of the violence is very separate because it's never him doing the violence. It is the injections are doing the violence. And that was such an interesting experience, especially when I'm specifically thinking he gets into some conflict with his siblings and Edgar punches Peter. But the injections are the ones that punch Edgar. And so that was just like a very interesting double standard I think that came across in the narrative.

Connor:

Yeah. There's a couple different things. The injections sort of, are sort of, in there to sort of accomplish. him blaming a lot of his more impulsive decisions on the injections is definitely a part of it. And that like, it gives him an easy out it's the same kind of process as someone being like, it's not that like I'm angry or unstable or have some sort of personality issues. It's just this new medication I'm on. You know, it's like I can't help myself. It's that sort of thing of like, well, I don't need to take responsibility as long as I can blame it on this convenient new thing that I'm doing or whatever. And then on top of that, there's also just like, everyone's telling him not to do this. He's like, you're not, like, say what you will about Adderall. At least you can get a benefit out of it. At least it helps your focus. This is not helping him. What's, he's still getting his ass kicked. It's not doing anything to help him. And everyone's telling him that. Everyone's like, you can just stop, take, I know mom had you on these and everything, but like, you can just not, like, you don't have to do it anymore. And he is like, no, I need this to be normal. And everyone's like, you don't like stop. And he's like, no, he's just, it's this horrible, horrible sort of like self-harm thing that he's doing on top of that.

Sara:

Well, I, and I think that it's hard to, to break out of these patterns that you've been in since childhood. Like it's, it's kind of been conditioned into him. the, the injection specific, not the making bad decisions, but I think

Lilly:

I mean, that's not wrong though.

Connor:

Yeah, there's that too. But yeah, no, the, the, the,

Lilly:

what was it? The Ambien tweets were a whole thing for a while. Whenever a celebrity would tweet something awful, they'd just be like, I was on Ambien.

Connor:

I've heard, I've heard someone I, there was someone, there was some author a few years ago that tweeted some sort of reprehensible shit and they're like, sorry, I took a Xanax. I think that was like last year actually.

Sara:

it's entirely the kind of thing that people say It's easy to, I don't know. It's, it's easy to blame drugs for your own problems,

Connor:

Yeah, yeah. It's, and yeah, that Peter is an expert at finding excuses not to acknowledge his issues. Again, like, I don't wanna be demonizing drugs or anything. If it wasn't, if it wasn't the injections, he'd find another thing he could blame his behavior on. Like, it's not, it's not specifically like, there's gonna be some stuff in probably book three that's gonna explain some good uses for those injections. It's not, that's not, it's not that the injections, it are the issue, but not, yeah. Specifically.

Sara:

it doesn't sound like, I mean, my, my perspective on it is that it's not so much the injections themselves. I, I think like any other medication, they, they do have a, a valid purpose. It's the way that Peter uses it as a crutch and blames everything on them.

Connor:

Yeah. And there's, there are specific points in the book where when he gets to an emotional sort of 11 for long enough, he'll, he'll take a different drug called Muse, which brings him back down specifically, like you'll notice he only does it when he's getting worked up because he doesn't wanna work through those feelings. And so instead of, instead of acknowledging and working through it, he's like, ah, let's just drug it away. It's like the, the problem isn't necessarily the drug itself, it's his relationship to it, because he's using this as an excuse not to deal with his shit.

Sara:

Peter an incredibly healthy protagonist.

Lilly:

And makes good choices.

Connor:

Yes. Really someone you should model your life after.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

None of the things in this book are his fault whatsoever.

Connor:

No, he is a perfect innocent little angel.

Lilly:

And if you think they're his fault, it's just because you're an only child and you don't get it.

Connor:

Yeah. You just don't understand really.

Sara:

Okay. So, so as much as we're making fun of Peter and his problems, I do actually genuinely very much enjoy reading about how he makes things worse for himself. And we asked this in the written blog tour interview that we did with you a few years ago, but I'll ask it again. How different is the final product from your first draft?

Connor:

Oh, about as different as it is possible to be. I've answered this over a couple in interviews in the past, but the initial version of book one was, I think 208,000 words, and it was this sort of romantic sort of thing. It was like this, like the main focus wasn't on the siblings, it was on Peter and like this other woman who got written out of the book. And she needed to marry, I think, Desmond for some sort of political alliance to beat Edgar. But then Peter had feelings for this woman at some point, and like, they had a prior connection and everything, and there was this constant sort of like, and then everything with Fabr was also happening. And then I showed it to someone and they were like. This is, you're doing way too much. There's too much stuff happening here, and it's, you, you need to focus in on stuff. And the sibling dynamic seems like the most sort of, compelling part of it. Like you gotta focus in on the siblings. And I, I tried to really hang on to what I could of the sort of romantic situation that it initially was. But the more I worked on it, the more I was like, this is gonna work better if it's like tighter and more focused on the siblings. So I ended up having to write the, the love interest out of those 208,000 words. I think only 60,000 survived. And then I had to write another 60,000 to restructure basically everything around the new sort of focus of the book. Edgar never even made an appearance in the first draft. He was just a distant sort of figure that was like this presence you feel throughout the book, but never actually shows up. Whereas this, he's very central to the opening of the book this time because I was like, if, if the focus is gonna be on the siblings, let's fucking do this thing. Let's completely rewire this whole thing.

Sara:

Edgar does make appearances and his arm makes appearances

Connor:

Oh, and, and disappears at certain points. Oh, Edgar was shockingly fun to write too. I wasn't expecting it to him to be that fun.

Sara:

We don't actually see that much of him. he does show up in this book. We do see him a little bit, but I feel like his presence looms larger than he does in this particular novel.

Connor:

That's true. Yeah. Same with Annise. She only gets a couple scenes specifically where you actually see her on the page. But like, I. A lot of the, a lot of the sibling dynamics in this book is stuff you get from the way some of them talk about the others. That's something that I really had to figure out how to do. I was not or how do I describe this? This is an aspect of characterization that I, this book really taught me how to do well. I like, that was something I was really set out to improve on with the Falls elder is this, this idea that like, you don't necessarily even need a character to show up on the page to characterize them.'cause everyone, every, the way each character describes their siblings, like they clearly have a very different orientation to them. So you can both get, and, and a sense of who this, who the character is from the way they talk about the sibling and how the sibling is from the way that like the kind of relationship that they have. And that was really, really fun to play with. Especially in relation to Edgar, where everyone has this sort of like. They're all exhausted by him, but they all have slightly different sort of, relationships to him.

Lilly:

Okay. I have, well, actually, first, can you pronounce the sister's name one more time, because that wasn't how I was saying it in my head.

Connor:

I was doing anise like Eloise, but Ann instead,

Lilly:

Annais. Okay. Okay. Thank you.

Connor:

there's some people who are going like Anwar or something like that. Like I, I, I did not know, it would be as hard to pronounce when I initially came up with the name.

Lilly:

No, I like Annais. I, I'm gonna be honest, just went, Anna, every time her

Connor:

That's okay. Anytime I see there's, there's like, there are a couple times where, where I'll see an accent mark and I'm like, I don't know what that thing does. So I'm just gonna like mumble a little bit in my head when I get to that point, when I get to their name.

Lilly:

Okay. So we have a couple of questions about the series as a whole, but before we get into that, what would you like readers to take away from this book in particular?

Connor:

That's a big question. What do I wanna take away from this book specifically? Think things through for just a second. That's too morality play. I don't like that. I don't like that as an answer.

Sara:

I

Connor:

No, it's

Sara:

Peter does think things through and then he decides that he's just gonna go with his instincts.

Connor:

Yeah. No, you're right. Peter has, there's several points in this book where Peter's like, Hmm, this is a terrible idea. Anyway, I'm gonna do that. All right, cool. Just immediately while knowing it's a bad decision. So if you have a, if you have a bad decision, listen to that. That's, that's the lesson from this book. If you, if you think that this is not going to go well, generally listen to your gut on that one. No, but seriously, like, a lot of the takeaway for this

Lilly:

second guess yourself.

Connor:

Yeah. Yes, exactly. I'm glad you understand what I was trying to impart with this book. No, a lot of this book is basically about people who get a thrill off of being extra, especially in violent ways. And people who have, I. It's, it's the kind of thing you get when people who have way too much political power and none of the temperament that that kind of power ought to have. Like, with great power comes great responsibility. It's the opposite of that. It's basically it, this idea that like, if you have a lot of power, it's incumbent upon you to use it wisely and not do anything that these characters in this book are doing. And that's basically a lot of the stuff that I want people to get out of it is like the idea of the I'm rambling at this point. I don't even know if I'm making any fucking sense, but basically this whole book is basically about this idea of like. This is seems like a natural end result for when people are drunk on this much power and their petty grievances end up shaping the political landscape. A lot of Edgar's speech in the middle section as Peter's hiding from him in the stables is basically the the point of this book. A lot of that is basically the point of this book is like these people have ridiculous amounts of power. They do not have the temperament to use it wisely. That is in some ways a natural end result of having that absolutely irresponsible level of power. And a lot of this book is sort of interrogating that, that sort of thing of like, this is the natural end results of what happens when you give people power so much power that their petty drama can just shape the fate of an entire nation.

Sara:

But it's, it's so interesting because Edgar doesn't necessarily have the temperament for it either.

Connor:

No, he had a brief moment of lucidity and decided to ignore that completely,

Lilly:

Always second guess yourself.

Connor:

right? Yes, correct. The real theme, never trust your gut. Always. Second guess every instinct you have.

Sara:

But, okay, so book two just came out in February. When you started the series, did you have a clear idea in mind for how you wanted to continue it in subsequent books? And how, if at all, has that changed while writing the series?

Connor:

I always knew how book two was going to end. Because it's the meanest idea I've ever had. And I knew I had to do it. I had the idea like halfway through Book one. I didn't know how I was gonna get there. I didn't get there any remotely in the way that I thought I was going to. with the way that it ends I have a vague idea for how book three is going to end. But again, I have no clue how to get there. So like, as with most of the, the things that I write, I have a vague idea what a lot of the signposts are gonna look like. But I don't have a great idea of like how I'm going to get to each specific big thing. There's a specific arc I'm planning in book three especially that's like, oh, it's gonna be so much fun if I can actually make it pay off. But if, but like, it's, I, I don't know how to make it feel earned. So that's gonna require a lot of work. But yeah, a lot, a lot of it is just sort of, they're, they're vague sketches that I, that I know, but most of it is generally like, it's like trying lenses at the eye doctor. It's really you're just switching stuff out and being like, is this anything? No. Okay, let's try, let's try something else.

Lilly:

Well, can you leave our listeners with a little bit of a teaser for what they can look forward to in book two?

Connor:

Oh, there's so much. There's a big action sequence around a third of the way in that doesn't let up for basically the rest of the book. It's an incredibly nailbiting, incredibly stressful experience. There's a smuggling ship that requires heart surgery about halfway through the book. The last third of it is just the most brutal thing you'll ever read. It's, it's a very mean book. I cannot stress this enough. Peter really gets put through the ringer on this one. If you think this book was mean, the SEC book too is just much, this is where like he's, at least in this book, Peter was not really given an awful lot of responsibility. Peter gets to make decisions in book two. He's in a place of authority. He gets put in charge of other people. There's, there's a lot of stuff where it's like he's gets to make a lot, he, he, he has a position of influence and there, it's, it's, it leads to some very fun things happening.

Sara:

And I think that you have left out the most important part of Book two. Full disclosure, I have not read book two yet, but I'm given to understand that it is part of the Mr. Squeak extended universe.

Connor:

Oh, absolutely. Yes.

Sara:

Squeak is name dropped in book two as one of the

Connor:

Chapter two specifically.

Sara:

and that's the most important bit obviously

Connor:

Yeah. Yeah. His mom, I think named him,

Sara:

her.

Connor:

yeah, her, that was actually a, that's actually a beat in, in that scene of like, oh, it's, it's a her. Did you know that? And she, and she's just like, you need to shut up.

Sara:

Connor, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Before we let you get back to your evening where can you be found on the internet?

Connor:

Oh God. The answer's changed so much since I last was on here. You can find me on, let's see, blue Sky, Instagram probably Facebook. Did I say TikTok yet? I can't remember.

Sara:

you have not said TikTok yet.

Connor:

On TikTok and I think Als also on YouTube. I think that's everything. I'm mostly on blue sky at this point. Als and so, but like, yeah, if you want to DM me, that's, that's gonna be where you'll find me. If you just wanna see random shit, you can go to any of those sort of places. There's also the falls. All there is in the diplomacy of the knife on Amazon, and it's about to go wide. So any other place that eBooks are sold probably right by the time this drops, you can probably get it basically anywhere.

Lilly:

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much and can't wait to talk about the next book in the series.

Connor:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!