Fiction Fans

Author Interview: Underscore by Andrew Cartmel

• Episode 185

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Your hosts welcome Andrew Cartmel back on to the podcast to chat about Underscore, the latest novel in his cozy crime series The Vinyl Detective. They discuss cinematic inspirations, new characters in established series, and just how hard it is to do bad things to your fictional darlings.


Find more from Andrew:
https://medwayprideradio.co.uk/show/the-vinyl-detective-show/

https://www.instagram.com/vinyldetectivelondon/

https://twitter.com/andrewcartmel?lang=en


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I'm so pleased to welcome back Andrew Carmel onto the podcast to talk about underscore, which is the latest final detective novel.

Andrew:

Hi guys. Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.

Sara:

Of course. This is what, eight, nine?

Andrew:

This is the eighth book? Yes. I. I have to think about that though.

Sara:

Yeah. There, there are so many now, which is delightful. That I have to start thinking about it too.

Andrew:

Well, they all look really nice side by side.'cause the cover designs by Martin Stiff is so striking. And the colors, because each book is a, has a solid color to it is really beautiful.

Sara:

Yeah, they look really nice on my shelf. I don't have this one yet, but I believe that I have all of the rest.

Lilly:

So before we dive into our conversation, our quick little intro questions, what's something great that happened recently?

Andrew:

Oh, okay. Well, I have a friend who's an artist that painting up there is by her and she does all kinds of, like, she does all the design for my plays and I wanted her to do some book covers, but we haven't been able to make that happen yet. But she did this wonderful mural for my garden and I loved it so much that I got her to do a second one. And just this week I got the second like a, it's on this big piece of aluminum, it's like the size of a small door and it's beautiful color printing. So I, I've, I've got it now mounted in the garden. So this is all fantastic. So that's been a lovely thing. My garden's already starting to look nice with spring, but now it's got two artworks by my friend, the artist Sarah Jane Docker. So that's a nice thing that happened this week.

Sara:

That sounds lovely. That's fantastic.

Andrew:

I, I'll show you some photos afterwards. I don't dunno. It's not, it's not great for an audio podcast. I just,, when we cease talking to the audience, I can show you some pics afterwards.

Sara:

Yes, please. I would, I would love to see pictures. My good thing is that it's an absolutely beautiful day out. So when we're done recording, I'm gonna go do some weeding in my garden.

Andrew:

Lovely. I love a bit of gardening.

Sara:

Yes. As does Nevada now. Yes.

Andrew:

Yeah. Well, my characters map my own trajectory and I gradually got into garden. Like, I don't wanna give the impression that I'm an expert gardener. I'm a very lazy gardener, but I like to do small things that have a big effect, like planting something that's gonna spread and look beautiful and give, you know, like color and fragrance every year. and since I'm interested in it, I'm made my characters interested in it since, especially since their house very much reflects my house.

Lilly:

Good to know. I'm also going to be gardening today, but to make my good thing a little bit unique, I'm gonna specifically call out the tulips that are blooming.

Andrew:

That's sort of the sign of spring, isn't it?

Lilly:

Yes. I was so sad. Our daffodils did not bloom this year. I think they might've gotten eaten. I don't know, but I was worried. So the tulips are coming up, but I'm happy about it.

Sara:

Did they grow

Lilly:

well? Yeah. Coulds

Andrew:

like deer eat daffodils, don't they? I think I'm pretending I know about these things. Yeah,

Lilly:

I bet they do. And I know there's wild rabbits around, so it could have been anybody.

Sara:

I bet it was the rabbits.

Lilly:

Yeah. But the, the leafs came up and the stems came up and then just no flowers.

Andrew:

Oh. So the little bastard ate the nice, the ate the delicacies.

Lilly:

Yeah. Sounds like it. But the tulips persevered. What is everyone drinking tonight? I.

Andrew:

Well, I'm always on drinking chocolate and I had the last of some very nice Australian drinking chocolate. There's this criminal Australia called Mork, which always amuses me'cause I always think Mork and Mindy. Mm-hmm. And they do very nice stuff. And I use up the last of theirs tonight, so that was delicious. There's often as a little bit of salt in it, which is kind of interesting.

Sara:

I was just in Melbourne and I saw Mork actually. So

Andrew:

cool. You're such a globetrotter. Yes. Yeah, it's a great hot chocolate. Anywhere that you find that serves it, it's always worth ordering.

Sara:

Yes. I didn't actually manage to have any of their hot chocolate, but but I do remember seeing their stores around and it looked really nice.

Andrew:

Very nice. Very good.

Sara:

I am bringing Sadie's here to California, so I am drinking a mimosa.

Andrew:

Oh, Sadie is a fictional version of my favorite restaurant, which, which sort of doesn't exist anymore. So I feel it's all the more important to memorialize it.

Lilly:

Absolutely. We have our secret fourth podcaster here. There's a

Andrew:

beautiful cat wandering into shop. That's what we like. It's look at that gorgeous, gorgeous gloss. Is this where

Lilly:

you're gonna sit? Okay,

Andrew:

yeah. I just spent 15 minutes giving my cat a tummy rub before I was hoping that she'd grow tired before this podcast began, so I I wouldn't have to cruelly break it off.

Lilly:

I, yeah. Reading about the cats in underscore the vinyl detective's, cats are always so delightful and it's nice and all of the characters give them their. Attention as they're do, which I appreciate.

Andrew:

It's, it all adds to the picture and all adds to a little sense of reality. And I think regular readers like, like even though the cats never play a major part, the, I mean there are cat mysteries as you well know, but my cats are just peripheral, peripheral pussy cats. But I think that they are one of the ingredients that people enjoy coming back to when they get the books. Absolutely. I would,

Sara:

yeah, I would agree with that because I love seeing them in the books.

Lilly:

I am drinking mint tea as a small homage to the character Swen Bank, who we are introduced to as he's drinking some mint tea, herbal tea.

Andrew:

Yeah. And it's so easy to make. Just get some fresh mint leaves, pour some hot water and add sugar if you like sugar.

Lilly:

I do. I usually add honey. But today that's be nice. Today I'm just doing it straight. Yeah. And this is a book podcast, other than underscore, which we're about to discuss at length. Have we read anything good lately?

Sara:

I've just been reading podcast books, which have been good, but don't really count for the purpose of this question.

Andrew:

Well, I've been reading a bunch of good stuff, but the one I I suppose I, I should mention most is, I was looking at my bookshelf the other day and I saw Rogue Mail by Jeffrey Household, which is a classic thriller. It's a fantastic book. And I thought, I just had an old paperback of it. I thought I should buy a deluxe edition'cause I like to have, you know, beautiful copies of my favorite book. So I ordered one and I, I was looking at this lovely hardcover, hardback copy of it and I just thought I'll read the first page and I got completely sucked into it. Again. It's a fantastic, really engrossing, gripping thriller for those who aren't familiar with it. It's about a guy. It's set in the, it's written in the 1930s. It's about a big game hunter who. Decides to shoot Hitler, but he's caught before he can shoot Hitler. He is never called Hitler. He's just called rather Sard, the great leader. But on page one of the book, he's caught tortured, and then they take him, they throw his body over the cliff thinking he's gonna be dead. This is by the, you know, where only as far as page two at this point. But he survives. And then it's the story of how he not only escapes the immediate vicinity, but eventually escapes Germany. And it's just fantastic. It's incredibly gripping, brilliantly written. And I, it's, I've started looking, thinking, I've only ever read one other of his books and I was beginning to think I might have to have a major Jeffrey household revival, but it was a lesson in the art of thriller writing, I think.

Lilly:

Well, speaking of this was a podcast book, so it doesn't totally count, but we read Murder on the Orient Express recently, and I did think of you because we do often talk about Agatha Christie and her great influence on, I

Andrew:

think she's a, a master of the Forum. Mm-hmm.

Lilly:

But that was a recent read. And then I read underscore it's been a, a mystery kind of spring so far. I suppose it kind of has been actually

Andrew:

crime fiction is the best fiction. Yes.

Sara:

But we here to talk about. But we are here to talk about underscore, right? And I think I say this every time we have you on but I really want a vinyl detective cookbook because you include so much food in the book that our hero, the vinyl detective cooks and it always sounds so delicious and I want to try the recipes. I think particularly the mac and cheese, which, oh, the mac

Andrew:

and cheese. It's, it's so easy. I think the, the recipe is actually in the previous book, but I, I'm very happy. Send it. I, I'm pretty

Sara:

sure that you do include it on noise floor. I have a note in my in my cooking notes that says it's on like page 2 79 or something of, of noise floor. I can always

Andrew:

send you a copy of it. The thing is, I got some pushback from my editor this time.'cause he said, oh, the mac and cheese was in the last book. And I said, yeah, but it's his signature dish. And the important thing in this one is that he's cooking it for an Italians pasta to an Italian. So it's like Cole to Newcastle if you know that expression. So I, it was just the perfect recipe. But I do need to come up with another great one. I recommend to anybody who. Eats dairy. I'd recommend the mac and cheese is the finest version of that dish.

Lilly:

I like that though. It feels realistic. I mean, for someone who's cooking, like for themselves and their partner, you're not, I mean, sometimes you try new recipes, but everyone has their go-to. That's right. The idea that he never repeats a recipe would be ridiculous.

Andrew:

No, that's really kind of you and, and very forgiving. I I won't use it a third time though.

Lilly:

I was wondering similarly if like, I was tempted to go through and make a playlist out of the music mentioned in this book, but then I thought that might be insulting'cause I'm just gonna listen to it on my phone and not the proper way with the good speakers and No, I mean, music,

Andrew:

you should consume music however you can. You'll get, and if you really like something then you can explore it more deeply on a better system if, if you have such a thing. But I think you get the essence of it.

Lilly:

Because there is quite a bit of music talked about in all of the vinyl detective novels. Of course, it's a central theme. But in this one spit specifically, a

Andrew:

lot of that music is fictional that people will look it up and find that it doesn't exist. Kindly contrived by the author.

Lilly:

I was going to ask. Yeah, it, it feels like, I bet some of it is fictional and I'm sure some of the musicians you talk about are real though. And where, where is that line? How do you decide what you want to invent and what details you want to include? From our world,

Andrew:

I the fictional musicians really generally are only the one ones who enter the story. The other, other musicians who are mentioned are the real thing I.

Lilly:

I assumed you didn't decide to make a historical musician a murderer

Andrew:

or, or accuse one of it, but if somebody's deceased, it's no longer libel libelist. So I think it's well worth steering clear of that.

Sara:

But speaking of the murder that is central to this book what inspired you to use giallo films as the central theme?

Andrew:

Well, I love them and I love their music. So anybody who doesn't know giallo are lurid Italian thrillers, sometimes with supernatural and sometimes sort of slasher movies largely, but. Where this came from is that there is a great Italian film composer called Pirro Poni, and he was involved in the fifties. I touch on this in the book, in a, in a Murder case. He was a suspect eventually cleared, and that got, that's where this all began. But that didn't mean it had to be about Gali those movies. It could have been about any genre of film made in Italy. But I just thought, as with the book Attack and Decay with the vinyl detective novel, which deals with scandy noir like scandy crime fiction, I wanted to have a book that had those kind of tropes in it. And similarly in this case, I thought it might be useful to have some of the tropes of a, of a J thriller. So that was sort of, and also, as I say, because I love them and they did do have great music.

Sara:

Do you have a, like a favorite one that you'd recommend people watch?

Andrew:

Ooh, the thing about them is they're often kind of. Not great movies are great, but yes. Yeah, there's a thriller by Dar Argento, and I believe it's Cat Nine Tales, which has a great Marconi score. It's also got the most extraordinary ending. I just, I I will, if you, I will double check that. That's, I think that's the title and unless it's corrected, that is the correct title of it.

Lilly:

Presumably the movie that we are dealing with for the bulk of this book, murder in London is a invented movie by you,

Andrew:

I have

Lilly:

to assume.

Andrew:

Yeah. That was the other thing that was in my mind. I, I had this idea because of Poni about a composer who was involved in murder, and I thought. I don't wanna set it in Italy because I haven't been to Italy and I could do research, you know, on Google, but I always like to make it as real as I can. But I thought if I said it in London especially London of the sixties, which is a period which fascinates me and which I've read a lot about and I've seen a lot of movies about, and I set it around the river, which is a fascinating part of London. So I just, I knew from the, the sort of feeling that gave me that, that I could write about it because it inspired me.

Lilly:

And we get a really lovely description of the movie when our main characters watch it. And then some details are recurring throughout the book. how much of that was just drawing on your knowledge of the genre? How much of it, like, were there any specific inspirations? I'm very curious.

Andrew:

Part, part of it is purely kind of, I. Procedural and necessary in that, I think, okay, it's a crime novel. There's gotta be a certain amount of mayhem and murder and menace. So I knew that there had to be some set pieces and I thought I could, I could draw them from, if I drew them from this film from the 1960s, it kind of would give an additional eerie resonance to everything. And it, I, I could have some fairly wild stuff so I could have some quite outlandish action sequences. So that's, well that was one reason for doing that.

Sara:

Fantastic. So one thing that really struck me about this book is I feel like in reading the other ones, I've always felt that the vinyl detective is. Maybe like in his thirties and somehow this one made me feel like he was a bit younger than that. Do you have an an explicit age for him in, in your head, or is it very nebulous?

Andrew:

Well, it's late twenties, early thirties basically. And it's, it's interesting that you felt that he was a bit younger. That's nice. It's good. I was terrified. You say he felt a lot older. No, no, no. But I wonder, I wonder what it was that made you feel that. I'd just be fascinated to know if you could ever put your finger on

Sara:

it. Yeah, I, I don't know. because I'm interested in, why I thought that too, and I haven't really come to a, to a conclusion. Just that for all of the other books I've always like pictured him in his mid thirties and for this, I was like, oh, maybe he's actually in his twenties somewhere.

Andrew:

That's fascinating. And, and if you do manage to narrow down what gave that impression that I would be even more fascinated.

Lilly:

Yeah, I will, I will keep you posted. My theory is that a lot of the other characters in this book are older. And I think that that difference maybe Oh, okay.

Andrew:

That's interesting. Yeah. My theory

Lilly:

anyway.'cause we get a lot of really fantastic glamorous older women in this book that were incredible. I love all of them.

Andrew:

Well, thank you. No, I was just remembering some as you said that and that, that's really nice of you to say that.'cause I, I, I'm very fond of those characters.

Lilly:

Something that I noticed or that sort of struck me in reading this book is that we have our, our moment where the vinyl detective visits a, a flea market to look for vinyl for the Yeah. The record that he's been tasked with getting. And he mentions that he wasn't optimistic because those sales were sort of not as productive anymore. They were all pretty picked over. It was not the best place to find rare records. Exactly.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And I was just wondering. I mean, that felt like just sort of a, a modernization of the book. I suspect that that is how flea markets have changed as you've been writing the series or

Andrew:

Yeah, very true. There's always been a problem with dealers. Like dealers would get up really early. They'll go there first, though, that does hoover up everything, you know, vacuum up all the good stuff. But that seems even more pronounced now. Plus people are selling online, so they, they may not even take their best stuff. They'll just, they'll look online, see if somebody's selling at the crazy price, and then assume they'll get the crazy price. This is me gring about it. But yeah, so for all those reasons, so I think he, he had to reflect the reality of it, but on the other hand, he, he can still find amazing stuff and I can still find amazing stuff. It's completely unpredictable.

Sara:

Well, and I feel like the final detective going to a flea market to look for, for records is such a, an iconic visual in these books. Like, you can't have a final detective book without that scene.

Andrew:

Exactly. Yeah. it's like not, not having Raymond Chandler having his detective get foot more getting beaten up by the cops. It's almost required.

Lilly:

Exactly. Are there any other ways that these books have sort of modernized over the years of writing them?

Andrew:

The development of the characters, I suppose because our little nucleus of, of people, Nevada, the hero Agatha and Tinkler, they, they're still in essentially the same configuration, but they're, I mean, LER just will now say things like oh, this is Agar, the whom I'm hopelessly in love with, you know, I have this doomed passion for, he's just completely open about it. So is she, so that's, whereas before it was sort of. There, but not stated explicitly. So in that sense which is slightly perhaps postmodern of them or meta of them, but it's, that's kind of nice and kind of refreshing. And also, again, in character development, LERs started having more girlfriends, you know, that they never works out. But that's still, fine. And the characters, I guess the, the subsidiary characters are getting more rounded. On the other hand, stinky always remains pretty much the same, which is important'cause he has to, he has to just be that annoying nemesis for the hero.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't necessarily want a lot of depth to Stinky because I love to hate him. He doesn't need to be well-rounded.

Andrew:

No, that's one of my favorite writers is John D. McDonald. He wrote 21 novels in a series about a character called Travis McGee, and he began referring to them as the books as a folk dance, because essentially it's the same moves, although varied each time. So basically Stinky comes on, does his thing, then he goes away again. And I always really look forward to those moments. You don't want too much, but you don't want too little and you don't want it to be too different.

Lilly:

Two of the characters that are involved in this particular mystery are Des and Cass, which the detective in Nevada discuss are named after Shakespeare characters. Is there anything to that other than their parents be being Shakespeare fans?

Andrew:

At some point, I, I needed to name the characters and I, I think, I'm not sure which, I suppose it was Des Bone I can with for thought. That's a cool name. And when she had a brother, I immediately thought, oh, if her parents were pretentious enough to name her after a character in Othello, then they probably wouldn't have stopped there. And it was just, it was useful. And also it kind of unites those characters in an interesting way. It makes'em distinctively different.

Sara:

Before we move on to the spoilers, are you not gonna ask me who should read this book?

Lilly:

Well, everyone,

Sara:

I mean, yes, it's an easy answer.

Lilly:

Thank you. It, I know we, we've all, we've talked about how all of these books are cozy detective mysteries. Right. But this one felt even cozier. And I don't know if that was just like where I was when I was reading them, or if this was just like the ultimate cozy,

Sara:

I think it's, I think it's because of old Italian grandmother. Oh. Like feeding people pasta or wanting to being fed pasta. Yeah. Beef fed pasta. That's

Andrew:

interesting. Yeah. Lily, do you, do you

Lilly:

think that is why it's possible? I think it, I frankly, it might've just also been that like I needed cozy and so I latched onto it.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

But it was really nice. When I started reading the book I got to the first page and immediately met with cat antics and I was like, oh, this is what I needed right now. Right. And then we get into the, the violence and the high jinks later on, but by then I was like fully engaged in this world.

Andrew:

Yeah. You kinda need that contrast. The, the cozy domesticity with the dangerous nightmare world outside. Mm-hmm.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And I, well this was definitely where I was at because when the cats are introduced, they feed Turk and Franny. Is that the other cat's name? Fannie. Fannie, yeah. And Fannie doesn't show up for her food. And I was like, what happened to the cat? I was very concerned, to be honest. You didn't do anything? Yeah, like

Andrew:

a tiny little cliffhanger, but I think I pay it off. She comes racing in by, by the end of the next chapter, I believe. Yes.

Lilly:

But I was primed. I was ready for something off. Yeah. Yeah. I was too. Well, Sarah, who, who should read this book other than people looking for a music and cinema themed cozy detective story?

Sara:

I

Lilly:

mean, I feel like that actually covers it quite

Andrew:

well. And Cat nuts. And

Lilly:

cat nuts. Yes. Foodies I think, would also really enjoy this series. Yes. Yes. Again, I want that cookbook.

Andrew:

The cookbook. Yeah. The cookbook will have to happen. Thank you.

Lilly:

Don't read it while you're hungry. That was a mistake I made.

Andrew:

Well, that's a another thing to hear. I, I, it works. So thank you for that. Yeah.

Sara:

This book will make you hungry even if you are not reading it while you're hungry. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly:

Alright. In the spoilers now. About halfway through this book, the vinyl detective successfully purchased a copy of Murder in London, the record he's been looking for, it was described as like new condition. But of course it ends up being absolutely trashed. It seemed like there might have been some real world experience behind that.

Andrew:

Oh, how fascinating that you detected that. Yeah, that actually happened. I bought a record that was described as something like Near Mint, and it actually had a hole in it, which like, I can only assume was Brit with the same, literally had a hole, not where a record's supposed to have a hole. I, I just, it was like beyond belief it, and, you know, I got in touch with people and they're like, oh, I'm sorry. I guess it's not, but it just, so, and that was combined with another thing. Which came from real life experience. People who pack your record and they're like, cover it with scotch tape. Like they rap rat. So like, it's like trying to get into toot and Common's tomb. Trying, trying to get the record out. Incredibly frustrating. I thought if I combine those two things, make it incredibly difficult to get out and then it turned out to be this complete junker. I, it was just a good little scene. Absolutely. It was

Sara:

a good scene. I don't have experience with records, but it reminded me of book buying. Yeah. Where you get something that you know is according to the listing, says that it's in a good condition or, or near fine or whatever, and Exactly. Then it turns out to be just. Poor, very poor condition. And, and it's, it's always devastating.

Andrew:

Yeah. And do they, do these people even check their stock anyways? It is very frustrating, but it was useful there because we needed a little, another bump in the story. We need, needed to feel that we were making progress, they were frustrated. And also then I could bring back Lenny who's a recurring character, who's another fun character.

Lilly:

He did not seem very contrite over it, although I suppose Nevada set him straight.

Andrew:

But that's the whole point, is like, he refused to take any ownership of the terrible job he's done as a record seller, which only inflames the thing. And yeah, I think it's very true to life.

Sara:

So speaking of Rafaella a little bit, I mean, we've, we've touched on her just a smidge. We get a lot of her on the page interacting with the vinyl detective in, very like, kind of cozy domestic ways.

Andrew:

So Raphaella is the Italian grandmother?

Sara:

Yes. She is the Italian grandmother who wants to eat pasta. And who doesn't like the fact that they're drinking French wine? She brings them Italian wine.

Andrew:

Yeah. She's very, very passionately partisan about Italian.

Sara:

She was delightful. And then it turns out that she is the murderer. I mean, she is kind of the,

Andrew:

the spoilers. Yeah. Yeah. that was, I hope that that was kind of cool. I, you know, quite a, a, an emotional journey for the reader.

Sara:

Yes. It was a, it a really fun reveal. I personally was not expecting it. Oh, good. Good. But what was it like including her as like. This secret villain in some of the cozier bits of the book?

Andrew:

Well, it was interesting because I'm sitting, I plotted it out. I don't necessarily plot in huge detail, but I do need to know who the killer is or what the solution to the mystery is. So I thought the whole thing, the idea is, is that we think that it's the composer who murdered his lover which would be the cops would, that would be everybody's first thought. But then the second most likely suspect is his wife in a jealous rage. So she was a natural for it. So, I knew she was gonna be the killer, but when I wheeled her on stage, she mustn't o obviously, she, she couldn't be an obvious killer. So she had to be the opposite of that. And I thought, well, let's have lots of lovely fun with her and make her a really nice, likable character because I'm sure in her own mind, and in fact that's where the heartbreaking thing, because to her granddaughter. She's this wonderful woman, you know? So, and I think that is the way it is in real life. So it just made for a much richer character and the sort of, it is not just a case of, misleading the reader, not, not letting them know that it's a killer. It's also kind of creating rather tragic figure.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And especially with Chloe, her granddaughter, who is the one who hires the vinyl detective to find this record. And then coincidentally also uncover a bunch of information about the mystery. Or perhaps not so coincidentally for her. Yeah.

Andrew:

She, she deliberately wants to clear her grandfather's name and she thinks that she can achieve both. And she does. Yes.

Sara:

And it's really sad though because if the final detective had been able to stick with his original plan of just finding the, record, I mean, he doesn't necessarily want to find the, the murderer as well. But if he'd been able to just stick with his plan of finding the record, Raphael would've been okay. Chloe would've been happy, like it would've been,

Andrew:

Rafa would, would not be in prison. Chloe would not have been horribly disillusioned about her grandmother. But on the other hand, let's remember Rafael has started killing people and doing terrible things. So that's, you know, he would've had to find the record before any of that happened.

Sara:

That's true. She's not actually a good person. I just really liked her.

Andrew:

Well, it, the thing is, people aren't one thing or another necessarily, so she, she is in many ways a terrible person, but she's also in many ways not a terrible person. It's just. I sort of promised myself I would bring this up, but I'm gonna bring it up. I'm so pleased when I came up with the ending for the book,'cause she, she gets him to ringer imprison, you think what? There's gonna be something like really heavy, you know, like something about the murder, some revelation. She just wants to give him some recipe advice. So when I came up with that, I thought that's the perfect ending.'cause like, she's still, still the same person. She just wants, you know, by the way, this is what you should do with the pink lemon juice. I was so happy with that because it was just, it was so in character and it was such a sardonic ending to the book. And I needed an ending'cause I, everything had happened, but I needed a little coda, a little just a little tweak, a little button at the end. And that was provided that, so I was very happy with that.

Sara:

I absolutely loved that. And it does actually tie in to my next question, which is, what was her suggestion for the lemon juice?

Andrew:

You know what, it's one of those terrible things where I, I didn't have the answer to that. You're the second to ask. I feel like such a fraud now. That's why it's, I mean, it would've stopped there anyway, but that's an additional reason why I had to stop there because mm-hmm. Because there wasn't No, but I'll come up with something. Don't worry.

Lilly:

I mean, salad dressing is the obvious answer. Yeah.

Andrew:

Yeah. Well, that's, that's a good one. Like maybe just with all olive oil perhaps as addressing with some kinda salad. So thank you for that suggestion. Mm-hmm.

Sara:

I mean, I am tempted to try marinating some onions in lemon juice and then figure out what to do, what to do with the lemon juice now, because I have a ton of lemons.

Andrew:

Make, make sure that it's yeah, it's, it's red, red or onion, and then you get this lovely pink juice. Mm-hmm.

Lilly:

So Raphaella is, you know, obviously a, a hugely involved character in the, the course of this novel. But we also meet Juno, who is sort of the other suspect. And she also has an absolutely tragic sort of character arc over the course of this book, although in a very different way.

Andrew:

Yeah, I was so pleased with Juno and I, I, I really liked her name when I came up. Well, you know, I've often said that when you come up with a good name for a character, that you're halfway there and she was just so much fun to write. She was so interesting, such a cool character.

Sara:

I was glad that she was not harmed when her houseboat burned.

Andrew:

Yeah. And even her dog was safe too.'cause she was walking the dog, I believe when, when it happened. Yeah. So she's, she's gonna be okay. She's a lovely character with a lovely dog and she lost a bunch of stuff, but it was just stuff, right. It wasn't, you know, no living things were hurt. Fireball attack on her boat, the poor thing.

Lilly:

And the vinyl detective helps her replace her vinyl collection. So

Andrew:

that's, that's true. Yeah. No, I, you one kind of falls in love with these characters. You just create them for story reasons, but they come, if they're any good, they come to life and then they're an enormous boon to the story.

Sara:

Is it hard to put them through bad things if, when you like them so much? Yeah, I,

Andrew:

I found, sorry to interrupt, but that you were so right about that, that I had to jump in. That's such a good question because it's so true. Since I started writing these books, I find it harder and harder to kill people off. So you'll often find that somebody will just end up badly wounded or in a coma or something like that because I just feel it's so unfair to cut short their existence. And I mean, I know that sounds a bit nutty'cause they don't really exist. If you want a purely pragmatic reason for it, which you've killed off a character, you can't use them again. So, I mean, that's, a much more cut and dried reason for it. But yeah, because you sort of care about them, you think, you know, you're giving them this fictional life, it should at least be a pleasant, fictional life. And sometimes when I have to do something terrible. And this is gonna make me sound a little bit nutty, but I think you have to be a little bit nutty to write stuff in an earlier book called Attack and Decay. because it's that kinda scan noir, which is grizzly stuff, what I call the Danish Disempowerment School of Crime Fiction. The, the victim had to be horribly mutilated and, you know, his body's cut to pieces. And I thought, oh, how can I bear to do this to the poor guy? You know? I thought, you know what, the way to think about it is he's just an actor. He, they were just shooting a movie and after the scene's over, you know, he's gonna get up again and they'll wash the, the fake blood off him. You know, it's just special effects. And I know it sounds nonsensical and a bit nutty that I had to do that mental gymnastic. But you see the point is otherwise I'm the sort of person who's writing about horrible things happening to people, and I think that's not very nice, you know? Yeah. I'd hate to be the sort of. A person who writes about that gloating and enjoys writing about it. I think it speaks well to me that I feel terrible about writing about that and needed some kind of rationale to get me around it. But that's a long answer to a, a very perceptive question. So thank you for that, Sarah.

Lilly:

And I think part of that is what makes these books so charming and enjoyable because even when we are reading about murder mysteries, I think that comes through on the page that it's not reveling in the violence or the misery.

Andrew:

It is not casual. And the thing is, I think, I hope what comes across is that when things like that happen, they are have cataclysmic reverberations for the people involved. So it, it's not, I hate it in fiction when I. Read about like a murder or something and it just, casual. One thing that used to drive me nuts on television in like a dumb crime shows you'd have a dead body lying in a room and these people would be standing out talking like casually. There's no way that if there was a body in the room, people, you'd have this atavistic, primal kind of revulsion, you like you wouldn't wanna be in a room with a corpse, you know? It is just the complete lack of sense of reality about the enormity of these things. So I do try and remain aware of that

Lilly:

and the characters deal with that a little bit in this book with Tinklers bumper sticker.

Andrew:

Thank you. Yes. He's so inappropriate, but it was great. But because he does kind of, that's how he processes it, that which is, which I think it's quite healthy and people like cops and emergency service workers who are exposed to these, this kind of trauma, they do find that. Gallo's humor is a good way of dealing with him.

Sara:

And it does make sense that Tinkler needs to reclaim his vehicle for himself,

Andrew:

because otherwise how could he even better drive it? So that, but he was very much in keeping, he's done things like that in the past. Like he turned a child's coffin into a drinks cabinet. he's had t-shirts. Like, I went to Canterbury and all I got was this lousy murder attempt. No, he, he does have a history of doing that, but I was, I liked that when I thought of that because it, it was a, it was a callback to an earlier book, but also the, the thing for me is always how do I get enough menace into a book early enough? And I, I could sort of cheat a little bit by referring to terrible things that had happened in a previous book, but it reminds us that we're in a, a crime novel and that there is a sense of. Menace throughout, which, you know, you want to get that in there for the reader. Otherwise, you're two thirds of the way through the book and you've had lots of fun, but there hasn't been anything dramatic or threatening that has happened yet.

Sara:

Mm-hmm. Slightly unrelated, but if you ever decided to sell merchandise for the series, I think, that t-shirt and that bumper sticker would be, would be excellent. Oh, I would buy them bumper

Andrew:

sticker is a great idea. And a friend actually got me, got a t-shirt of that printed for me. It's upstairs, so I just, you're thinking along the same lines. Yeah, it's, it's great. And I just ha everybody who hasn't read the book, the child's coffin, never actually had a child in it. They dig it up and discover that it was actually full of papers, full of, um, notebooks.

Lilly:

Yes. And that's something that the characters point out as well of during that conversation. Thank heavens. Yeah.

Andrew:

I, yeah.

Lilly:

I have to draw

Andrew:

the line somewhere.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. speaking of characters that get to make a reappearance in this book, we got the return of Princess Satan.

Andrew:

I was so pleased. I love her so much. Like she was in the last book. I'd be desperate to get, bring her back'cause she's so much fun.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. And she really makes an entrance for the time that she spends on the page with us.

Andrew:

It's a bit like stinky that she's not there long, but she makes a big impression.

Sara:

She absolutely does. And she kind of, so in the, last book, she's definitely a villain. I mean, she drugs the vinyl detective. She's part of this, Heist, yeah. But here, she's kind of almost a, a good guy.

Andrew:

Yeah. I just, she's, she was so appealing that I wanted to bring her back. I didn't wanna bring her back as a threat. I don't want her to bring her back as a, as almost as a quasi kind of, friend, you know? Mm-hmm. And I'm so glad you mentioned that scene.'cause I was thinking about it the other day'cause I even researched, she's got a shirt like with cowboys on it or something. Like, I always find this stuff online. And she's just, she's so, so much fun. Like she's got such a sense of style. She really doesn't flare that girl.

Sara:

I still wanna see her and Cordelia the, the paperback, sleuth team up. That,

Andrew:

that is definitely something I've thought about because they are s similar in their like complete lack of a moral compass. So that there are, and I think Cordelia would be like, wow, this is what I wanna be when I grow up.

Lilly:

Yeah. princess Satan not only shows up to warn the vinyl detective about some communications she's been seeing online. She also makes a, a subtler appearance farther on in the book as part of stinky comeuppance for existing That's right. That he deserves.

Andrew:

That's right. I was so pleased. we always need stinky to be taught a lesson and and she was the perfect method to achieve that. Yes.

Lilly:

And the, for some reason, he never really learns

Andrew:

If he learned, he'd be Yeah. He needs to be a very simple creature morally for mm-hmm. for him to be a, running gag in our books. So that's, we don't want him to become any noer than he is.

Lilly:

No, he absolutely earns his comeuppance in this book because when he first shows up. To talk to the vinyl detective. He's just giving him the most horrible love life advice for how to trick these women into a three-way. It just, but that's, that's the way his mind worked. But I, yeah, I think that was note worth. Well, it was noteworthy because we love to hate stinky, but also it was such a stark difference with the way the other characters have been responding to the two women who are staying with the vinyl detective in Nevada who have Chloe and Des Damon, who had been in a relationship, seems to have had a, an acrimonious breakup and are maybe reigniting things much to the dismay of their families. And well, Tinkler makes some references, some, you know, jokey remarks. Yeah. Their relationship is, is really quite sweet and handled very thoughtfully on the page.

Andrew:

I'm so pleased you said that. I really, really hope that that was the case and to have your validation and that means a hell of a lot to me. Thank you, Lily. It really does.

Lilly:

Yeah. And it, it really comes out when then you get stinky, sort of swooping in and just objectifying them, get the contrast, right? Yeah,

Sara:

yeah. Yeah.

Lilly:

It really makes it stand out because the, the two of them also, Chloe and Des Dam are so, I don't wanna say flamboyant, but they're characters. They're, they're, they're personalities.

Andrew:

They're big, colorful characters. Yeah. Right?

Lilly:

Yes. And so when. the hint started dropping that they like had a past and would possibly be getting together. Part of me wondered if it was gonna go a little soap opera E just because of the way that their two characters were independently. But then having it be like very, like tender and personal was such a, a nice twist on its own.

Andrew:

I'm so pleased. I really, it's, you know, I'm getting goosebumps. I'm so happy that it worked and I thank you so much for saying that. It's really rewarding when something like that comes off

Sara:

mm-hmm. And they get to get married at the end. It was so sweet. I was so pleased.

Andrew:

Yeah. I like those little coders that wrap lots of things up and it just seemed that right destination for that story.

Lilly:

Well, it's interesting too, especially because we've had the vinyl detective in Nevada in, of, you know, very established relationships since book one when they get together. Having sort of the new introductions of different romances between new characters to explore that sort of Yeah. Visual.

Andrew:

You can, you can do that sort of soap opera thing. You can't do it with your main characters, but you can do it with subsidiary character. And when I say soap opera, I'm just using it as a shorthand for, you know, telling love stories.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm. You have explored a lot of different themes in,'cause each vinyl detective novel has its own like core concept, right. This one is the giallo movies. We've talked a lot about the Scandinavian noir. Is there one that you would like to revisit?

Andrew:

Yeah I sort of, kind of touched on, well, several really, flip back was sort of about folk music, but it was, it was there's much more to be had from folk'cause there's, it's such a rich field. So folk, folk music I like to revisit. And also noise floor, although it dealt with, you know, electronic dance music, again, that's hardly scratched the surface of that. So I've come up with ideas for, you know, both for folk music and also for electronic music for further explorations. Making'em as different as possible, of course. But those are the first two that I've thought about re-exploring.

Sara:

Is this a series that you intend to write just for as long as you have ideas for? Or do you have a set kind of like ending in mind for the series?

Andrew:

Keep going. As long as there is interest from me and from readers, I, you know, I, I don't see any point. Ending something before you absolutely have to, you know, as, as long as they're fun, continue to be fun and, you know, sometimes think, oh my gosh, how many can I come up with? I think then I think, you know, it's one book a year, you know, all I have to have is one idea a year. It's really not that difficult. And I mentioned John d, McDonald's, Travis, me novels. There was 21 of those. But one of my all time favorites is, is Rex Stout's Ne Wolf. And I think there were 73 neuro Wolf novels. And I don't think there was a dud in them. I, I don't know.'cause I haven't read them all, but I suspect they were, at least 70 of them were really good. So, you know, you can sustain these. You have to keep up the quality though.'cause I have read others, I, I never name because I think it's very bad to knock another writer. But I was reading another writer's books about a recurring character and I'd read half a dozen and they were great that I read one that was a dud. It's like biting into a rotten apple then you think, well maybe. It was just a one-off. Then I read another one that was a dud, and then that was, I never read another one by that author. And so what I'm saying is I cannot afford to put on a rotten apple on the market. I've gotta make sure that they're always good. And I'm sure nobody deliberately does that. But I think especially if you become successful, you can become lazy and your quality control can drop, especially if you're writing in a hurry. And people want the book. They want the book, they want it now. They don't care if it's good. And when I say people, not just the readers, but your editors too. So it's something you have to be on guardians. You have to maintain the quality. cause it's such a betrayal, especially if somebody loves a series and then it, you don't deliver. It's just, yeah, mustn't happen.

Lilly:

It's almost worse than a series that never gets finished for it to be finished poorly.

Andrew:

Well, yeah. And. Actually, I keep going back to Travis McGee, but he wrapped it up pretty well. Mm-hmm. He just thought of a way of coming. And another series that I loved is Peter O'Donnell's, modesty Blaze. And he finished that in kind of a heartrending way, but again, it was a proper ending. But I, I don't think we should, I, I certainly have no plans to end the vinyl detective anytime soon, whether my publisher wants to keep on publishing them. But even that's, these days, it's, I, if somebody, if a publisher wanted to drop the series, I could just publish it myself. it's a different world now. So as long as there's a readership for it, then it can be as long as I can keep writing them. Well, I think it should keep going.

Sara:

Well, I'm certainly delighted that, that we'll continue to get final detective stories.

Andrew:

Thank you. I mean, it is, it is great. And paperback, sleuth. So I, my agent has just asked me for two pitches in each series. I've, I've come up with two more ideas for both series. And also this is the first this is a real scoop. I've written something entirely new entirely new crime novel. It's, I've written the entire novel. I've written outlines for two more. I've written a pitch document. My agent has got all those. We'll see what happens with it and if it sells as I hope it will, I can tell you all about it. So that's, yes, and if that happens, there'll be three of these series going. So let's see what happens.

Sara:

Definitely wanna hear all about that. So, fingers crossed itself. But just how, so you have. The vinyl detective series, you have the paperback sleuth series. Currently you're having a release in each one per year. So that's two books per year. How do you find the time for all of this writing? Well,

Andrew:

yeah one of my favorite novelists, another one, it was called John Dixon Carr, and he also wrote under a pseudonym, Carter Dixon. And he, in his prime, he was, putting up four books a year. Nero Wolf, I mentioned that he, he wrote 70 books, and that was over about 40 years. So that, that must have been like two books a year, something like that. Rex Stout used to write his wolf novels in 38 days like that. He used to allot 38 days. And these were really good books, like, I mean, beautifully written, superbly plotted with great characters and all different, as far as I can tell. So what we're saying is that. Three books a year is by no means impossible. I worked out that it would take, I could do three books a year and still have the other half of the year to write stage plays. So, you know, it's just a matter of when I'm going in a book, I, try to get 2000 words a day done. I don't always manage it, but at 2000 words a day, your book is finished in less than two months, even with the days off and days when you undershoot that. So it's a matter of organization and energy. And also, as I say, having those examples of guys who wrote a lot of books. They were really good books. and I'm hoping that I will be in a position to have three series going, and my intention would be to have a book in every series every year.

Sara:

Do you think that your time in television, working in television has helped with that ability to write quickly? Or is it just that you have these examples so you know, it can be done so you know, you can do it?

Andrew:

I, I have written quickly in the past, but the trick is to write really quickly and really well, and I suppose you're right. It it's the fact that I've got these examples.'cause I, I have thought, and sometimes in, you know, a few years ago, I probably, if you told me write, write three books a year, I would've just put my head and my hands and been in despair. But no, I, I realized that I could consistently maintain. You see, Graham Greene used to write 500 words a day every day. And that's two books a year, right? So that's, that's two books a year right there. So if you can write 2000 words, which isn't a huge advance on that. Not only do you get more than two books a year, you can have lots of time off to do other things. You just have to sustain it. So you sort of have a period of the year when you write, when I write novels and a period of the year when I don't. And I am, I, I mean, let's wait and see if all three series remain in print and are commissioned every year. Then we'll see how my master plan pans out. But it's certainly doable and it's certainly quite attractive because as I say, it would leave the other half a year for writing plays and doing other things. But I love writing plays and putting on plays and it's not like writing is work. It is quite hard work, but it's something I love doing so much. It, it's not like I'm waiting for the day when I can retire from writing. you know, writing is what I do. I suppose it's easy to imagine with a painter or a musician, you, you know, a composer, you wouldn't, couldn't imagine them stopping doing it, especially a painter. Why would they stop painting? It would be a terrible thing to do. So, yeah, it's, let's hope that we get all three series going and we'll see how the, my theory of the three books a year works out, but it's certainly feasible.

Lilly:

you mentioned a little bit earlier that you loosely plot out these novels before you, you write them. Were there any moments in this book that surprised you?

Andrew:

I, as I mentioned, I didn't have at the very ending you know, like exactly how I, the exactly the way the book was gonna come to a bridge. So that, but like that came to me. I was just so pleased. I was very, very happy about that. What else surprised me? I suppose Juno's character just became much richer and I. And deeper and more interesting than I'd expected when I was just plotting it out. The relationship, between the two women just, it worked really well because they, they're both sort of saying, oh, it is like when you, you're at school and somebody, you know that people keep asking about each other and you know that something's going on between them. I just, that just sort of, it came together and it worked. When I'm starting the book, I was just thinking, okay, so I got this collection of characters, I got these two two women and a man. I thought the first thing you need is relationships between people. So I thought, okay, so the man and the woman can be brother and sister. Great.'cause I can instantly begin to write siblings.'cause I know that there's, could be things going on between. And I, I did consider that the, the the woman could be involved with the man, but I thought it's much more interesting if she's involved with the other woman. And it was just, it just then the, then of course. The brother will have an opinion about that. So I suppose the surprises more came in exactly the fashion that things developed rather than any big surprises in plot terms. I'm just rapidly running through a plot in my mind, trying to think if anything if there was any major changes. But some things happen much more succinctly than I expected. So, you know, you, you don't need a lot of mysterious figures shooting a gun at somebody for it to be effective.

Lilly:

Absolutely. Well, I think that wraps up all of our questions, Sarah. Was there anything else?

Sara:

I don't think that we had any more questions about the book. But Andrew, as always, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast to talk about the series with us. We really appreciate it. We, we really enjoy the series. And delighted to hear that there are more in the pipeline. It's great to

Andrew:

have you guys out there. You know, it's, it makes it all worthwhile. It really does. And you say such perceptive things, both of you, about the books that it, it really makes it worthwhile.

Sara:

Well, thank you. Um, you've talked a little bit about some of the things you're working on with this project that you're shopping around and that hopefully sells so that we can read it. But can you tell us a little bit about any current projects? I know there's a paperback, sleuth book coming out soon.

Andrew:

There's a new paperback sleuth called like a Bullet, which is out, I believe in June. I. Very happy with that, that there's a, there's one scene in in particular and I'm go waiting until we have to sit down and have a chat to see if you guys mention that scene.'cause I was really proud of it. So we'll wait to see if that happens. Also, some hot new news. The The vinyl detective has just sold to Spain. There's gonna be a Spanish edition. There was previously a German edition, a Czech a language edition. There's now also gonna be a Spanish edition of at least the first two books. So that's quite exciting for me.

Sara:

Oh, congratulations.

Andrew:

Thank you. So, what other news is there? I'm hoping to have a play on this year, but I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to pull that off. But that's where, in negotiations with a theater to see if they're interested. I've reached that point where I've written the books this year, so I'm in the phase when I wanna start writing plays. So the next week or two. I'm gonna start writing plays and I'm not entirely sure what I'm gonna write, which is really exciting. You know, in a way it's a little bit scary in a way, but it's also really exhilarating and exciting to have this expansive snow in front of me with no footprints in it. So,

Sara:

well, where can you be found on the internet so that our listeners can hear about, you know, these plays that you're writing and all of your releases and your exciting information and news?

Andrew:

I am on Twitter and Facebook. Twitter will always remain Twitter to me as Andrew Carmel and you know, it's me'cause it's a picture of me with my cat, Molly. And I'm also on Instagram identified with the same photograph, but I'm called the Vinyl Detective London because the name Andrew Cartman was taken on Instagram and Vinyl detective was taken too, so I had to be vinyl Detective London. So it's a, a bit of a strange moniker, but that's where you will find me. Also, if you. Do a bit of digging. You can find my weekly radio show, which is called Vinyl Detective Radio, which is just me playing music that I like. And that's on Medway Pride Radio and Reclaimed Radio are the two platforms who support it so far. So if you just google those things, you can find it online. And I think that's pretty much me in terms of my social media reach.

Lilly:

Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for spending time with us today and looking forward to like a bullet.

Andrew:

Well, thank you guys. It's, it is always a pleasure and I hope everything is great for you guys.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!