Fiction Fans

House of Odysseus by Claire North

• Episode 184

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Your hosts finally get to read House of Odysseus by Claire North, book two in her Songs of Penelope series. It has been a minute since they read book 1 for their interview with North, so there is some reorienting that needed to be done. They also talk about their nostalgia for Greek Mythology, the new narrator for this book, and the different kinds of power that can be exerted from behind the scenes.



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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and today we will be discussing House of Odysseus by Claire North. And I do always want to call it House of Penelope because the last book in the series is the last song of Penelope. And I mix those two up constantly.

Lilly:

this is a sequel to Ithaca by Claire North, which we discussed on the podcast and, and interviewed Claire about about two years ago I think.

Sara:

Yes. I think the episode came out in April of 2023.

Lilly:

So if you haven't read that or listened to that episode, this conversation will absolutely spoil that book. However, that being said the Odyssey also spoils these books, and that's a pretty well known, I mean, even if you haven't read the book itself.

Sara:

If you are familiar with the story of the Odyssey, you generally know what happens in this trilogy, although the trilogy does combine a couple of other Greek myths like into it. All of the stuff with Clyde Nestra and Electra is not part of the Odyssey.

Lilly:

Right, but the point is we're talking about some, I don't even wanna call it Greek mythology.

Sara:

I mean, well, well known stuff. I would call it Greek mythology. I, I consider it part of mythology.

Lilly:

SIF has decided she's recording with us tonight. Hello little

Sara:

has strong thoughts about house of Odysseus.

Lilly:

Yes. Are you gonna pur into the microphone?

Sara:

I. No, she's just gonna shove her butt into the camera, which only I can see.

Lilly:

You are welcome.

Sara:

I love it. I'm, I'm just sad that listeners don't get to enjoy it.

Lilly:

If we get a good frame, you should screenshot it, but.

Sara:

She's not cooperating. Oh, does that work? Did that do it? There we go.

Lilly:

Thanks sis.

Sara:

Thank you, cif. I appreciate your service.

Lilly:

Alright. How distracting is it gonna be to record like this for the next hour?

Sara:

I mean, if CIF wants to do it, CIF can do it.

Lilly:

well. Before we get too deep in our conversation about this book, first our introductory questions, a quick five minutes before we're back on topic. What's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I just got back from a trip to Australia and New Zealand or New Zealand and Australia with some friends, which was a lot of fun. We did the Hobbiton halfling marathon. I did not run a marathon, to be clear. I did the 11 K version, which is about seven miles, and that was hard enough. Thank you very much. Would do it again, but also. Boy, that was hard, but it was, it was a lot of fun.

Lilly:

I mean, good for you, but damn.

Sara:

it, it was not so much the length because seven miles, like I can do that. I mean, I'm tired afterwards, but I can do that flat. It's the fact that it was up and down and up and down and there was very little flat and the ups were very steep and the downs were very steep. And that made

Lilly:

like Gimli running through middle earth

Sara:

I did.

Lilly:

trying to keep up with fucking leg loss?

Sara:

Yes. And also they had like orcs at some of the support stations,

Lilly:

Oh, cute.

Sara:

which was really cool.

Lilly:

Oh, that sounds

Sara:

Yeah, it like, it was, it was actually genuinely amazing. Like IW even though it was very hard, I would do it again because it was like, just the whole vibe of it, the atmosphere. It was like a party in Hobbiton and we did a Hobbiton tour beforehand. But you get to run through bits of haitin that you only get to see from a distance for like, when you actually do the tour. So that was really neat.

Lilly:

That's awesome.

Sara:

And they had, like, when you were running through Haitin, they had like musicians playing like the fiddle and things like that. And it was just a, it like the atmosphere was excellent.

Lilly:

My good thing for this week is that we started our garden for the summer. We are doing artichokes this year. We've tried them before, but I have no idea what they look like when they're little. So I think we always pull them out'cause we think they're weeds.

Sara:

never grown artichokes from seed. I've always bought artichoke, like starters.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

all my artichokes. I mean, like they should, the plants should last a couple of years and mine just don't. But,

Lilly:

they're supposed to be very happy here and like we have neighbors that have artichoke plants in their front yard that we get to admire every year and it makes

Sara:

I have neighbors that have that too.

Lilly:

But I've never, like never actually grown one. I'm pretty sure it's'cause we always pull them out so we have them in like a dedicated area instead of just randomly. This time I think it'll be better.

Sara:

You could also always try growing them in like little, like, you know, paper cups to start.

Lilly:

Yeah, I should have started them a couple weeks ago if I was gonna do that.

Sara:

Fair.

Lilly:

We have a finite growing window here,

Sara:

It's fair.

Lilly:

but yeah, it got some time digging. Get in the dirt. It did start raining. I'm a little muddy. That's okay. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I am drinking wine because I kind of feel like one has to.

Lilly:

I agree completely. This book, definitely a wine book,

Sara:

Yes, it's not, I'm not drinking red wine and I'm not diluting my wine with water. But still wine still counts.

Lilly:

And have you read anything else? Good lately?

Sara:

I did start reading Polking and the study of his sources critical essays edited by Jason Fisher. I did not get as much reading done over the trip as I had thought I maybe would have. Well, I didn't think I would get a lot of reading done. I got even less reading than I thought that I would get done.

Lilly:

Ain't it? Always the case.

Sara:

Yes. But I did start reading that book and it was fun to be reading it in New Zealand. And it's good. I'm enjoying it so far.

Lilly:

I started reading the last song of Penelope by Claire North.

Sara:

Cheating. We're not supposed to read that until August.

Lilly:

Technically, that's not a rule. I just have to read it sometime before August.

Sara:

Okay. You have to, you have to remember enough of it to be able to discuss it in August. When we covered on the podcast,

Lilly:

Yeah. I mean, there's no way I'm gonna have time to finish it anytime soon, but holy shit. After finishing this book, I was like, I am not done. I don't like, I don't care that this book has ended. I'm still reading this series. You can't stop me.

Sara:

I mean, to be fair, I was tempted to do that too, because I need to know what happens next in this books. I mean, in this series specifically, like obviously we know what happens in the, you know, Odyssey, but like in this book specifically, I need to know what happens next.

Lilly:

Yes. Which, I mean, that is a great feeling to have when you finish a book, Bravo North.

Sara:

Absolutely.

Lilly:

However, this book itself, house of Odysseus, is the second book in its confirmed trilogy, right? The song, the Last Song of Penelope. That has to be the last book. It's the last song.

Sara:

yes, it, it is a trilogy.

Lilly:

so we just read book two, and it has been two years since we read Ithaca, the first book. How much did you remember?

Sara:

I mean, I remember The Odyssey, so I at least had those like bits covered. Even though I don't think the first book follows the Odyssey very much at all because it's all about Penelope. reading house of Odysseus, I was kind of like, oh yeah, I remembered Cli Clyde Amra shows up in Book one. But if you had asked me about that before reading House of Odysseus, I'm not sure I could have told you that.

Lilly:

Yeah, I distinctly remember describing it to someone.'cause I had just started this book and I was so excited and I was like, yeah. And this book is narrated by Aphrodite and like each book is a different goddess. And like the first book was narrated by, I think Athena. No, not

Sara:

isn't it?

Lilly:

Yes.

Sara:

Okay. I did at least remember that it was hair who narrated book one,

Lilly:

So clearly I was operating off of mostly vibes

Sara:

which is, that's not the worst thing ever, to be honest.

Lilly:

And also I figured it out. I was about 10% into the book when I made that very bad description of the first one I, or not bad description, but inaccurate in a way that someone who has not read the book would not care less about. But I am embarrassed of now in retrospect.

Sara:

Yes, fair. And I mean, I, I do think that in an ideal world we would've read these books closer together. I. But that's why this is our year of sequels where we are trying to read some of the things that have sequels that we did not read in a timely manner.

Lilly:

So the specifics definitely were things that I had to kind of figure out as I went along. However, I think this series, as far as reading the books in very long sequence goes really benefits from being a sort of O odyssey retelling just because it gives you a framework to work within. so while I was kind of muddling along in the first quarter of this book. I was like, oh yeah, duh. The suitor like there. And there was enough that I just knew from culture because God knows, I don't remember the Odyssey from when I read it in high school either. But there is enough of this story in the air that I breathe that I was not like, I never felt lost.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I do think that for our particular reading case that is having two years in between book one and book two it helps that we do have this frame of reference that we can use to bolster our, our knowledge of Book one. Right.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

And I did feel a little more lost in the stuff that deviates more from. The Odyssey, like, I don't know Clyde Nester's story as well. I don't know RA's story as well. So those bits I had more trouble remembering just because I'm not as familiar with them. But I also think that the book does a decent job at giving you the knowledge you need to pick it up.

Lilly:

Well, and even just from the approach of this is a novel, like ignore all of the, the Greek mythology aspect of it, we are reintroduced to the setting. The book starts with the goddess Aphrodite describing Ithaca to us, and you know, being very dismissive and speaking down about it because it's just this awful little island where nothing interesting happens, which is really like fun. I don't know, I love the scrappy palace vibes. It's not a, huge, luxurious palatial castle. It's a palace only because the queen lives there.

Sara:

Yeah. So it's, it's definitely not what's the word I'm looking for? It's a, it's, I should know this word'cause it's a really like, easy common word. It's not the elegant palace that one thinks of. Maybe when one thinks of a palace, it really is just a palace.'cause Penelope lives there and she's the queen.

Lilly:

And so the book does reintroduce that to you. When characters are brought up, we are given hints and clues about who they are, even if they were in the first book. So I don't think you need a Greek mythology framework

Sara:

Yeah. Well, and that's what I meant, that's what I meant when I said that the book does a good job at reintroducing everything.

Lilly:

Yes. I'm agreeing with you.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I do wonder, I mean, I. I would not call myself a Greek scholar by any sense of the meaning. However, I would call myself a Greek mythology nerd if you accept the distinction between those two.

Sara:

I, I accept the distinction between those two.

Lilly:

And that definitely helped me. I don't know, at one point they just throw out like, oh yeah, castor and Pollocks. And I was like, I could not explain that story to you, but I recognize those names and kind of have a sense of the vibe. Do I think I needed that? No. Would I have gotten more out of this if I had taken 30 seconds to Google it? Probably.

Sara:

Maybe. I mean, I don't think you needed to know how they fit into Greek mythology to like. Have the benefit of that reference, to be honest, I think knowing that it was a reference was probably enough.

Lilly:

But I bet if I did actually bother to look that up, that it would've brought something to the passage.'cause you know, north mentioned it thoughtfully and wasn't just sprinkling in references to prove that she could.

Sara:

absolutely. I mean, it when she adds in references, it, it does feel intentional. Like it's not just, Hey, let me show you how, how much I know about Greek mythology. I do wonder what the reading experience is like for people who are not fans of Greek mythology like we are.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I mean, just like, I'm sure that you can still enjoy this book, obviously it's a good book. It's, it's engaging and the story's entertaining, and you wanna know what happens to the characters. So I don't mean to imply that if you don't. Like Greek mythology, you're not gonna like this book. But I, I do wonder just how that reading experience differs.

Lilly:

I am so curious as well because it brings a little extra magic to the table. I just, in, in that Greek mythology is nostalgic for me because I remember reading the stories as a little kid and not that the story in this book is something I would have read as a kid, but it gives it an advantage over me at least.

Sara:

I mean, I did have a child's version of the Ilia and the Odyssey that I read illustrated. I still have it somewhere. Actually. I could probably point exactly where on my shelves it is, but.

Lilly:

This is an example of why this podcast is better when we disagree.

Sara:

You're not, you're not wrong. But I don't think we're gonna disagree that much over this book,

Lilly:

No, and, but, and, and because we're coming at it kind of from the same angle. We're not, we don't have any counterpoint or other perspective. This is, this is a case in which we overlap quite firmly. And so,

Sara:

Sorry, listeners, you're out of luck.

Lilly:

yeah, someone tell us, someone who has read this book or any Ithaca, any book in this series, although there's no way you've read the second, you can't read the second book without the first book. That's

Sara:

I, no, no. is not one of those books where it doesn't matter what order you read it in. You, you do have to read book one before book two.

Lilly:

But I would love to hear, you know, someone who is not steeped in Greek mythology, how it was like reading this. I'm very curious Now, the first book was not from the perspective of Athena. That is actually the third book. Duh, Lily. But you know, I was excited and not paying attention and I'm gonna give myself a break there.

Sara:

I do really enjoy how the perspective of the different narrators brings different aspects to the table from book to book, like Hair is a very different person from Aphrodite, and so Harris's narration focuses on different things about the characters, about the setting in Book One than Aphrodite does in book two. And that was a lot of fun, even though I didn't, I mean, as we've talked about, I didn't actually remember Harris's narration all that well, but I didn't know it was different.

Lilly:

Aphrodite, as a narrator worked very well for me. I think she and I would be friends.

Sara:

I am not sure I can say the same thing. I liked her as a narrator but I liked her better and I probably would not be friends with Aphrodite. She's fine. I wouldn't be like enemies with her. I just wouldn't, wouldn't be, you know, we wouldn't be close buds

Lilly:

as the goddess of love and passion, she was very much focused on like tender relationships between characters, which I am such a sucker for. I,

Sara:

you know, historically my absolute favorite thing.

Lilly:

and I mean, Aphrodite was very conscious, and I mean through her Aphrodite, Claire North was very conscious of not just focusing on lovey Debbie Romance.

Sara:

It's, it's true. I mean, Aphrodite also did value the. The close friendships and things like that. So it wasn't like it was all romance all the time.

Lilly:

She talks a lot about how. The goddesses, Artemis and Athena are, you know, they're the chaste goddesses and they've eschewed love and passion and so they think that means that they do not love. And Aphrodite is like, look at how nice you're to your, obviously you love them, which I really liked. And then in the same breath she would say, I will never say this to her'cause she would hate it. And I was like, good emotional intelligence. Aphrodite smart.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Ooh, selfishly, I am personally working on a story that heavily features Aphrodite, and I was very glad that I characterized her very differently from this because holy shit, do I not want to be compared to this book? Why would I set myself up for that misery?

Sara:

It's a, it's a very high bar,

Lilly:

All the prose is so good, especially because it is told from the perspective of a goddess this like sense of tension and foreshadowing in every sentence was just spot on and it kept you engaged for every moment.

Sara:

Yeah. And I just like, tonally, I love the, the tone of the narrator. Like, it's just so much fun.

Lilly:

Yes. And very silly, I think.

Sara:

It's not, so, it doesn't take itself seriously. Right. Like it, it plays with the narration in a way that I really enjoy.

Lilly:

At one point, very early on, Aphrodite says, I. The Nyad who bore Penelope and thrust her into her father's arms with a merry cry of, she's yours, ba incredible,

Sara:

It's just, it's just good. It's so good. But a quick, a quick summary of what this book in particular is about. So in book one arrestee kills his mother CSRA on Ithaca and in book two, and then he goes mad and in book two, in this book, it's kind of dealing with the fallout of that. So Menis

Lilly:

the King of Sparta.

Sara:

the King of Sparta comes looking for arrestees because he is. Playing the, the concerned uncle, but really he wants to take over you know, all of the Greek kingdoms

Lilly:

Because arrestees is the king of my, I got most of the letters right?

Sara:

yes. He is, he is basically the high king of all of the Greeks. And Menis would like to be hiking of all the Greeks but Menis is a jerk and Penelope doesn't want to see him in that position. And so he kind of, settles on Ithaca and Penelope has to figure out what to do.

Lilly:

yes. How to manage this shit show.

Sara:

Yes. I mean, that's a terrible summary of the book. Read the book, but I think that gets the broad strokes of it.

Lilly:

A lot of this book is the politicking that Penelope has to do as the ostensible hostess to menis. Even though Menis clearly has the upper hand, it is the one calling all of the shots. But the very subtle manipulations around that of, you know, Penelope trying to say, oh, no, no, but I couldn't, like, as your hostess, I must insist in him saying, oh no. What kind of guest would I be if I such and such? And that, like both of them, knowing that they both know exactly what they're doing, but keeping up appearances anyway, was just delightful. That's the kind of politics that I love.

Sara:

It is a very interpersonal politics.

Lilly:

Yes, and I mean the fate of all of Greece hangs in the balance, of course, but it comes down to Menis has to be nice to Laies because Laertes is the old, old king of Ithaca, and with Odysseus gone, he is kind of the man of the house, and Menez has to respect him, even if Laer Tiz is being the most fabulous ass.

Sara:

Well, and also Laertes is a hero in his own right. Like he, he went and did heroic stuff. Looking for the golden fleece with Jason.

Lilly:

Have I ever told you about my time on the Argo?

Sara:

And so there's that added aspect, which means Metalists can't just, you know, push him down. And Laird absolutely takes advantage of that to help protect his, his island and Ithaca's independence.

Lilly:

I. Fucking loved the mutual respect between Penelope and Laies.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I feel like we didn't see them interact that much in the first book. She kind of calls him in as a heavy hitter maybe once or twice. And then of course his farm gets burned down. If you don't remember, his farm gets burned down. He brings that up a lot. And I think that's fair.'cause like his farm got burned down.

Sara:

His farm got burned down and I didn't remember that his farm got burned down, so it helped that he brought it up a lot. To be fair,

Lilly:

But the two of them are really well behind the scenes. They are united front in this book and they play to each other's strengths. So well when like in front of other people, laies playing as the dismissive shitty father-in-law. But actually like I. Running perfect interference. So Pinel FP can get done what she needs to get done.

Sara:

I think the thing about the relationship is that in the first book we. See'em interact, but we don't necessarily see the level of mutual respect that they have for each other.

Lilly:

He's pretty dismissive of her, which everyone is'cause she's a lady,

Sara:

yes, and, and also they don't, at that point in the first book, they don't necessarily have to be a united front against an outside enemy like

Lilly:

right?

Sara:

men ais, I mean obviously they're pirates or whatever, but they don't have to be a cohesive unit. And here they really do in order to preserve their way of life. And you can see through their process of collaboration, you can see that, that yeah, they actually do have a lot of mutual respect and they do work really well together. And so that was what made their dynamic so engaging.

Lilly:

He is the only male character that Penelope actually trusts, at least at the beginning of this book.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, I would argue that she. Kind of trusts some other people, but she trusts Laies more.

Lilly:

Yeah. And there are, there is an advisor who she does like, who she knows is on her side, but at one point, I think about halfway through this book, we hear some of, is it Medan? I think that's his name.

Sara:

Yeah, I think so.

Lilly:

We get his internal narrative and he's like. no, I don't like that she's letting me in on her plans. I think I liked it better when she manipulated me into doing what she wanted.

Sara:

Which, you know, I get it.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

If you know what's happening, you're complicit.

Lilly:

And so that was kind of like a, she trusted him but didn't rely on him in the same way?

Sara:

Yeah, because none of her advisors are reliable in that way. Like they are ODYSSEUS'S advisors and some of them. Might do what she says without arguing, but not all of them. Some of her, some of her advisors definitely have more of their self-interest at heart.

Lilly:

a couple of them are just genuinely antagonistic against her, me on at least is, like I said, on her side.

Sara:

Yeah. I don't know if I would call any of her advisors Antagon, like actually antagonistic, but they would be antagonistic if given the chance.

Lilly:

Madon respects her and realizes that she's doing something behind the scenes. He doesn't like know the extent of it, but he knows that she is the one actually making sure this island functions,

Sara:

yes. Some of her advisors just see her as a woman

Lilly:

Which,

Sara:

be there.

Lilly:

which in this setting not worth much

Sara:

Nope. I also really enjoyed hating metal ais.

Lilly:

I loved Meadow Elis, and I mean, like, he was a villain and I hated him, but I loved him so

Sara:

Yes, but like he wasn't, I mean, he was terrible and I hated him, but loved hating him, like I said. But also, he wasn't one dimensional, like he, he is definitely acting in his own self-interest. He's not a good guy, but he's also kind of aware of that. And also does make things better for Penelope when it aligns with what he wants.

Lilly:

When he first rolls in, he starts immediately fucking with the suitors in a way that was just really enjoyable to read because the suitors sucks so hard. That's the whole point in the whole point of the Odyssey, is that Penelope has suitors who suck really hard.

Sara:

basically.

Lilly:

And so now we have a three book series about how hard these suitors suck and also all the other things happening around that. so having someone who has overt power able to just openly mess with them was delightful.

Sara:

Yes, a hundred percent agreed.

Lilly:

Now he was also extremely abusive to his family. So, you know, not a great guy and not someone that I liked as a character overall. Oh, I mean, I liked him as a character.

Sara:

You didn't like him as a person, but you liked him as a character.

Lilly:

exactly. And I, reading about him on the page didn't make me go, ugh, you

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

are some villains that just suck so hard. I'm done with it and I don't, I don't enjoy reading about them.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

But he had so much more dimension than that. is it a spoiler to say that he respected an Penelope as his own villain?

Sara:

I don't think it's a spoiler to say that he comes to respect Penelope as. His own antagonist.

Lilly:

The fact that she even is able to rise to the level of antagonist in his eyes is saying a lot.

Sara:

Yes, absolutely.

Lilly:

He's one of the few men in this book who

Sara:

Acknowledges what she's doing.

Lilly:

yeah, understands her capabilities and he still underestimates her, but not as badly as most of the other characters.

Sara:

mean, he, he still dismisses her because she's a woman and she can't be as effective as him. You know, a great hero, but the fact that he thinks that she can go against him at all is pretty impressive.

Lilly:

He's excited to go toe to toe with her politically, which is really fun.

Sara:

Yes. I mean, he's a creep about that too, but,

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

but yes, yes.

Lilly:

now, the suitors. I do love how useless they are because it makes them bumbling fools that were, again, really enjoyable to dislike. But I kind of hated how that reinforced the theme that comes up in this book a few times characters from outside of Ithaca keep describing the people of Ithaca as men who were raised by women because all of the men in this kingdom went off to war 10 years ago. And so all of the men now were raised without the influence of, of adult male figures around them. And outsiders use that to dismiss them because how could a woman raise a man? Which is obviously garbage, except then the suitors are really useless and kind of bumbling. And then it's like, well,

Sara:

At the same time though, like I, I see what you're saying and I don't entirely disagree, but at the same time we see so many competent women, like basically all of the women are competent and we see women like taking up arms and defending the island. And so I think that that reinforces the idea that this book proposes, or the, the theme of this book being that even though people are saying this about the men, it's not on the women. Like it says more about the men, that they're like this than it does about how they were raised.

Lilly:

I like that because it's not that the women couldn't raise them, it's that the men or. Boys at the time believed that the women weren't worth listening to.

Sara:

Yeah. So I, I do think that yes their behavior doesn't contradict anything that, that characters outside of the aisles are saying, but that's not what the book itself is saying.

Lilly:

I agree. Which is why those moments made me cringe inside a little bit because I was like, well, I hate, I hate that. That kind of reinforces it, but I like your interpretation better, and I think that fits in with the overall ethos of the series much

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. Because this book is all about the various ways that women hold power and, and how they deal with the constraints of the society around them.

Lilly:

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

And I think that that's just one more aspect of it.

Lilly:

I would say there are two main aspects of that that we see, which are, you know, we get the, the tresses who are, you know, oh, I'm just a shepherd. That's why I'm wandering around in the wilderness. Also, I have an ax in a bow and arrow, and I could fuck you up and you'll never expect it. Very badass. Very cool. And then we also have the more maybe political female characters who are operating within a, a system run by men that prefers men, but still managing to exert their power in subtle ways. Penelope, obviously our main character doing that in Ithaca for the last, well, two books now. This book also introduces Helen, who I mean, is a huge deal, right. Helen of Troy, Helen of Sparta.

Sara:

absolutely exerts her power, but all of that is kind of spoilers.

Lilly:

Well, I was gonna talk about Aphrodite fucking her over.

Sara:

Oh, yes. We can talk about Aphrodite fucking, or over, but I do wanna talk about how Helen exerts her powers in the spoiler section.

Lilly:

Yes. And Aphrodite, I mean, Aphrodite is the narrator of this book, and Helen's her girl, she loves Helen. She talks about that so much, but also Aphrodite absolutely fucked her over. I mean, because Helen was taken to Troy. There was a big old war. Everyone blames her for it, even though Aphrodite's the one that gave Helen to Paris in the first place. And now her husband is super abusive. She like, I don't wanna say as a shadow of her former self, but she's clearly not a super happy person.

Sara:

She's not in a happy marriage. I don't think that can solely be attributed to her running away with Paris, because I think Menis would've turned abusive over something anyway.

Lilly:

Sure, yeah.

Sara:

But I agree that, Aphrodite absolutely fucks Helen over, but I like Aphrodite acknowledges that. And she talks about how it wasn't her brightest decision and if she was kind of operating in the heat of the moment. And that doesn't make it okay, but it means that I can accept her statements about loving Helen.

Lilly:

It's very flippant, but I guess I also do believe that a God would be flippant over the fate of immortal. So maybe that's fine.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean it's, it's flippant but not overly so, like it's not more flippant than any of the other statements about the mortals

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

of the gods.

Lilly:

Right. Except it's coming from the goddess who is like, Helen is the best. I love her so much. I'll do anything for her also, let's fuck up her life a little. But the book itself is still very sympathetic to Helen and the awful situation she is in. And also just how she is a woman of a certain age who was prized for her beauty and her youth, and how that specter hangs over her head now. She is very complex in a way that is absolutely spoiler to talk about. So maybe we should get there.

Sara:

I. Before, before we move on to the spoiler section to talk about Helen, I would absolutely love a trilogy about the Iliad written by Claire North,

Lilly:

Mm.

Sara:

that, that focuses on Helen.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

we have, we have The Odyssey with songs of Penelope. I feel like there's room for a Helen trilogy.

Lilly:

I mean, I had read it.

Sara:

I would absolutely read it, but, but also like, it would not, like sometimes you want more from a story and you, just want more, but you don't actually think there's more story to tell. But I feel like, like this could, you know, there could be story there. Well, there is story there that the Iliad is its own thing. And I think that North would be able to, I. Make it fresh the way that she has made this fresh.

Lilly:

Yeah. That's interesting. I feel like I got a really nice level of Helen on the page and I like how mysterious she is in this. But that's because it's Penelope's story. So maybe I'm, I'm pushing back because I really love Penelope'cause she's our main character and if it was Helen's story, I would feel differently.

Sara:

Yeah. And the Iliad would have to be Helen's story. Like you couldn't, that would not be, that would not be Penelope's story.

Lilly:

No, I'm, I'm trying to think if it could be someone else's

Sara:

You could maybe bring other people into it the way that she, I mean, she brought, she brought Clyde Nestra and Electra into, into this one. So you could absolutely bring other people into it.

Lilly:

But you think it Helen would have to be the main character?

Sara:

I think Helen would have to be the main character.

Lilly:

Yeah. It is kind of all about her in

Sara:

It is, kind of all about her. I mean, obviously like. ID and the Odyssey as they were written, focus on the men. But if you look at the women in the story, yeah. For the Iliad, it's Helen and for the Odyssey it's Penelope.

Lilly:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, fuck, I'd read it.

Sara:

I would, I want it. I didn't know I wanted it until now, but now that I've talked about it, I'm like, man, Claire North, please.

Lilly:

Well, we're kind of hopeless fan girls for the series for a lot of reasons. Mostly because it's very, very good. Also a little bit for just personal circumstance.

Sara:

We both grew up reading Greek mythology. I think that does help with our enjoyment of this series.

Lilly:

But also, if you like, I don't wanna say it, historical fantasy, I think. Yeah. Historical fantasy. This is absolutely, you know. It's kind of our world, but kind of not because the gods are running around sort of influencing things. They're not like showing up and dazzling people, but they have,

Sara:

Not in this story anyway,

Lilly:

They have influence over what's happening. And then we get sort of when the gods are battling behind the scenes, which is also really fun. But it is still a historical setting. And the politics is really well done. I, and the way I have just described it kind of is how someone might describe Game of Thrones

Sara:

except it's a much more modern prose than Game of Thrones. And it focuses more on the women than Game of Thrones

Lilly:

and just good.

Sara:

and is good.

Lilly:

Than Game of Thrones.

Sara:

And is finished.

Lilly:

If you are a reader who thinks, dang, I probably should have liked Game of Thrones, try these books out. I'm gonna throw that out there.

Sara:

I'm not entirely sure. I agree, but I'm not gonna disagree either because I didn't particularly like Game of Thrones.

Lilly:

Yeah, I didn't either. I loved these books and

Sara:

I, I think, I think there are other books that are a closer comparison to Game of Thrones is what I'm, is what I'm getting at.

Lilly:

yeah, probably. But I would probably dislike them for the same reasons I dislike Game of Thrones. It, the strengths, like the bullet pointed strengths that I see in this book are what I hear other people praising Game of Thrones for erroneously, there was like. The stories are so different though. I mean, because it's about subtle politicking under the constraints of a society that doesn't respect you so much more interesting.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, if you want a historical fantasy, mythology, fantasy book that focuses on the women with a really, really engaging narrative voice, then I think this is a good series for you.

Lilly:

This book even threw in a little bit of a murder mystery.

Sara:

It did,

Lilly:

So I, Penelope had her Poirot moment at the end where she walked through everything that happened and I was living for it, especially because we just read Murder on the Orient Express.

Sara:

yes. But again, you should read Ithaca before you read house of Odysseus.

Lilly:

Yes. And don't come into it expecting a murder mystery. It's, I'm saying there was an element,

Sara:

There's a murder mystery in this book, but it's not the focus of the book necessarily.

Lilly:

no This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by fiction fans.

Sara:

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine Tia.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon.com/fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So Helen,

Sara:

Helen,

Lilly:

very early on in this book, Helen is introduced. She is an absolute airhead. She's drunk all the time. is described as always talking about absolutely nothing. She's vapid and my very first comment is, okay, but this is going somewhere, right?

Sara:

and it does go somewhere.

Lilly:

course it does. North isn't gonna do that to us or Helen, but it took a long time through the book for that to like truly be revealed and you had to trust North for that intervening time. I mean, it paid off. It was fine,

Sara:

It, it does, it does pay off. One of the things that I really enjoyed about this book was that it, it shows us some of the different ways that, the women in these positions of power deal with their circumstances. Like obviously, we have seen Penelope, you know, scheming to essentially hold her throne to, to keep the suitors from over and to, to keep her in charge of Ithaca. But we see Helen exert a very different kind of power in a very different way. And my heart kind of breaks for Helen because I think Penelope ultimately. Is a little happier. I mean, she's not being physically abused. And Helen definitely is, but I liked that North shows that there are different ways for women to be powerful.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And the two of them talk a little bit about how Penelope uses the, they call it a disguise as a widow, but it's like, I mean, you, you are though, it's not a disguise, you're just using it to your advantage. Whereas Helen uses the disguise of being a vapid airhead to sort of work around and keep people's expectations of them low so that they are able to get things done without anyone realizing it. Especially because this book is narrated by Aphrodite. It focuses so much on that sort of underhanded power of being underestimated. I feel like there, like there's a lot of rhetoric around being beautiful and having people only care about your appearance, to the point where Helen's actual appearance doesn't matter anymore. She has become a figurehead and I don't know, like you said, my heart also broke for Helen.

Sara:

I mean, she's a tragic figure, not just because of what happens with Paris, but she's in a really unhappy marriage. I mean, she's not well treated. She's not respected. She's not even really tolerated the way that Penelope is. She's being spied on by her ladies in waiting. She has no one she can trust. And she's decided that, or she has learned that her greatest safety lies in being seen as someone of, of no mind, no consequence. You know, someone who only cares about appearance when actually she is pretty thoughtful and, schemey and, you know, can hold her own.

Lilly:

Penelope has a network. She has not peers, right? I mean, technically aos and. Are her slaves, although a different connotation in ancient Greece. But there are people who see her and she's able to be herself around them. She still has to be their queen, but she doesn't have to put on this front of being a useless, sad, soppy widow.

Sara:

She has much more of a support system than Helen does.

Lilly:

the word I was looking for. Thank you.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

system.

Sara:

She doesn't necessarily have like friends per se, but she does have a support system and that's way more than Helen does.

Lilly:

Absolutely.

Sara:

Since, this is narrated by Aphrodite and even though she doesn't focus on romantic relationships exclusively, it is still a interest of hers. I feel like there is. A kind of a will, they won't be thing between Penelope and Kenman who's a suitor from Egypt. And to me it felt a little shoved in and out of place. But I'm not sure if that's just because I don't like romance plot lines as much. So it could be a me thing, but I also kind of wonder if it's because I know it's not gonna go anywhere and the characters know that it's not gonna go anywhere, and they don't have enough longing for me to care that they know that it's not gonna go anywhere.

Lilly:

It doesn't, it wasn't longing. It feels more like a crush, honestly.

Sara:

Yes, I mean,

Lilly:

time that they encountered someone that they were like, oh, or at least for Penelope, I like this person. I could see myself actually being with him.

Sara:

it does feel like a crush, but just, I don't know it. Because they can never act on it. I'm like, what's the point in having this here?

Lilly:

So I think that fits perfectly in with Aphrodite as the narrator

Sara:

It it does, it does. Like, it makes sense.

Lilly:

saying, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss. Which is often my refrain when I'm reading a book.

Sara:

It does make sense. I, but it just, I don't know.

Lilly:

was shoehorned in and we absolutely saw Aphrodite shoehorning it. Now I really like Kenman just as a character. Straight up.

Sara:

Oh yeah. I think he's great. To be clear, like my issues with, with their mutual crush has nothing to do with the characters themselves.

Lilly:

I had an issue with this where whenever Aphrodite introduces a character, she does give us like a little bit of backstory on them, but from the perspective of romantic relationships, which I thought was very fun and enjoyed quite a bit you know, oh, there's the captain of the guard who did have a true love once until she accidentally made fun of him and he killed her. And, oh, there's this person who lost their childhood love and you know, everyone has that like as their sort of,

Sara:

I mean, that was great. Like it was, it was great.

Lilly:

When she introduces Electra, she says, then this is not a word for word quote,'cause I don't think I actually actually highlighted it at the time. Something about how Electra thought she closed her heart to love, but. Oh boy. Did she have no idea? Like some kind of like wink, wink, nudge, nudge about the future. Now this could be me not knowing that story very well. But I was like, okay. Alright. And then when Aphrodite, well Reintroduces,'cause we meet Kenman in the first book. But in this book, when Kenman is introduced similarly, it's something along the lines of, oh, and he does kind of have a crush on Penelope. He thinks that's not gonna go anywhere. Little does he know what's in store for him. My mind went, oh, Ekra and Kenman are gonna fuck This Penelope thing is gonna be a red herring.'cause obviously that could never happen, but Ekra can totally get laid. That would be fine. It's not like arrestees is gonna get mad at her for that. And so at every moment, like they didn't interact at all for the first half of the book, but I was waiting. I was there, I was ready. And then when Penelope takes her small little gathering to get the fuck out of Ithaca. And she's just taking arrestees in Electra because they are, you know, very much being hunted by men, ais. And then we find out that she brought two suitors because they had a big boat and she needed a big boat. Then Ken Amman shows up and I was like, yeah, I knew it. He's there. RA's there. There's only like five people they have to interact. This is when it starts. No, none. None of that. None of that happened?

Sara:

I will confess, I did not get that from Electra and Kenon, ET all.

Lilly:

No, this was entirely because they both got the same, like little did they know in their intros. I thought that was echoing itself.

Sara:

Right,

Lilly:

So I read way too far into it. And so whenever Kenman and Penelope were like being flustered and crushy around each other, I was like, oh, it's okay. Kenman like this sucks now, but you'll have someone later. so none of that bothered me because I was like, this is all just a setup for something else. It wasn't.

Sara:

No, it, it was not, it was, it was just kenman and Penelope having a crush on each other,

Lilly:

Yeah, I

Sara:

which again, is fine. Like, I don't, I don't mind that in concept. And I do like the idea of Penelope kind of exploring what she wants in a relationship and who she is as a, as a woman rather than just as a queen. But because I knew that it's not gonna go anywhere, I was like, what's, what's the point? I think I needed it to be more, to be invested in it.

Lilly:

that's very funny to me because we, what book was it? Space Brooms, I think talked about a character who had a crush that was never, ever going to happen, and you argued vehemently that that's okay because crushes don't have to be logical and just because the other person isn't into you, you can't just turn it off. How come? Just because they're in a situation where they can never actually be together. You can't just turn your crush off according to you.

Sara:

No, I'm not, I'm not arguing for them having crush or for them not having crushes on each other, like it's totally logical that they have crushes on each other. That's fine. I just didn't care. And the book wanted me to care about it.

Lilly:

Is it because they were too practical about it? They weren't like mopey.

Sara:

yes. It was, they were too practical about it. I was like, okay, you recognize that it's not practical to have a crush on on each other, so why are you talking about it all the time? You know, it's silly.

Lilly:

I love that because I think there is something very beautiful and pure in an absolute nothing crush that like. If someone has a, has a crush, they get the butterflies in their stomach. They're super into that person. It's never gonna actually happen. And they're okay with that. They're just enjoying the butterflies, they're enjoying the ride.

Sara:

Yes. But if that was the case, I've wanted that to be more of a focus in the story.

Lilly:

Mm. So actually you needed more.

Sara:

Yes. I needed, I needed more. Like it was, not the fact I don't have an issue with them having a crush on each other. That's fine. it's the fact that it was so low level that I was like, why are you talking about it in the story? Like if it's this low level and you acknowledge that it's not going anywhere, like just what does, what does this inclusion bring as it is?

Lilly:

It got an uncanny valley worst middle ground of page time is what you're

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

It needed either more or less.

Sara:

yes.

Lilly:

I can get behind that

Sara:

I would've, been fine with it being more like, because it is, you know, this book is narrated by Aphrodite, and Penelope is allowed to have crushes on people who are nice to her, you know, for once. But it just, yeah,

Lilly:

because there are some people who are nice to her, but they're like father figures and that's not fun.

Sara:

Yes, yes. So she's allowed to have crushes on people who are nice to her and hot, but it just, it was at the wrong level. Yeah. It was at the wrong level for me.

Lilly:

So I know I talk a lot about how much I love interpersonal politics, but I. It actually got to the point where it annoyed me a little bit in this book. There's that dynamic of the Spartans who are definitely, they, they have invaded Ithaca, basically Penelope and her team basically go we've been conquered, like they moved all their warriors in. There's nothing we can do. But it's all under the guise of, oh, no, no, no. Allow me Oh, no, no, no, allow me. Except there's like no pushback at all. Not even under the guise of being polite. Like I understand of course, that they're not going to actually confront men ais because that is when it turns violent. And we as reader, as the reader understand he is absolutely capable of violence and totally fine with taking it to that place. He just doesn't see the need to, and he's right. He doesn't need to. But there's one moment kind of near the beginning when one of the Spartan maids is trying to do RA's hair and RA's Maid says like, back off, we got this. Like, Hey, don't, don't you worry about RA's hair. I will worry about RA's hair. And I wanted that to happen more. It felt like they were just pushovers the whole time.

Sara:

so I do have a rebuttal for this. The first is that Electra is also a guest. She has leeway that Penelope doesn't. The second is that Penelope is a woman and she can't be like, Ekra doesn't necessarily care about being viewed as not a threat. And Penelope does Penelope's whole livelihood basically depends on it. And three, she saves all of that pushback for when it's effective. Like, she's not gonna do anything that would make men Aus be on his guard or like, think that he has to have more strength. She waits until he is convinced that he is, you know, taken over and then she pushes back. So I think it made a lot of sense actually.

Lilly:

I mean, it made sense and it was very realistic. It just, as the reader, it got frustrating. I think for me at least,

Sara:

I, I didn't, I didn't find it frustrating personally, but

Lilly:

I mean her, her pushback could have been like super kiss assy and a total misdirection. I just wanted at least one moment. I think not again, not that her actions were unrealistic and clearly they were successful. I just wanted a little bit of that because I had to read Menis walking all over her for a many pages, and I needed something to get me through a little bit, although the ending was so satisfying that like it was fine.

Sara:

I didn't need that, but I can see where you're coming from.

Lilly:

And yeah. Yeah, it was just it. It was just a lot to get to the end. But when we do get to the end, oh damn. Does Penelope go off?

Sara:

She really does get her moment and it is Chef's Kiss.

Lilly:

There are two moments in particular that I think deserve recognition. The first one is when Penelope recruits the suitors to into her scheme to get rid of metal ais, she summons the advisors and the suitors. These are two separate scenes, but like they felt good in the same way. So I'm lumping them together right now. These men who have dismissed her and talked down to her and looked down on her for years, she summons them and says, here's the situation. Here's what I'm going to do about it, and here's what you are going to do to get that done. And they bluster and are like, what? I didn't even know you could talk, basically. And she says, well, you're gonna do what I say anyway for this, this, and that reason. And she's right. And they do. And that was just felt so good after two fucking books of them demeaning her. So that was fantastic. Her getting her like mastermind moment. And then at the end, end, after Menis has been frankly defeated she's sitting at the table with Menis. Layer, her father-in-law and Oreste, who is now not back to full health, but at least in sound mind, and she runs that table, she's like, this is what's gonna happen, Menis. You're gonna leave, you're gonna tell people this because of this reason, and I don't even have to worry about you because of that, that, and this other thing. And then it gets even better because after arrestee and Laies leave, Menis has become poisoned. We find out later there was other stuff going on there. And then she gets to like Lord over him as he is writhing on the floor. And she's like, and I'll get to you. I have my ways. And it, after everything she, and consequently the reader has been through in these two books, it felt so good to get that moment.

Sara:

It is very satisfying, Very satisfying.

Lilly:

Oh, fuck. So yeah, it was okay I guess, knowing that I was waiting for that, I could have totally gotten through the book without any of the pushback. I just know while I was reading it, I was thinking you could've at least tried, you know,

Sara:

I think I was pretty sure that there was gonna be something coming, so I wasn't worried about it.

Lilly:

I, I mean, as the reader, we know that yeah, Menis doesn't take over Ithaca, but Pen Penelope doesn't know that, so why isn't she trying to do

Sara:

No, no. But, but though like Penelope doesn't know that I have had trust in the Penelope that had been like written to know that she was scheming stuff.

Lilly:

Okay, so you think she was just lying low until she could do. The, the whole big scheme, I guess

Sara:

Yes, absolutely. Like she was waiting until her pushback was gonna be most effective.

Lilly:

I, I still think like against the servants or something like, I don't know. Laies does get to push back a

Sara:

Yeah. But a, again, like to your point about Ekra pushing back, Ekra is not the host. Ekra is a guest. She has power that Penelope doesn't. In this particular situation,

Lilly:

But even then in the narrative, they're talking about, well, I guess Aphrodite is the narrator. Aphrodite is talking about how Menis is not doing things like up to code. He is behaving in ways that you're like, that you're not supposed to do to your host. And so Penelope had space to say, well, as your host, this is how it's supposed to be. These are the standards that we as this society have agreed on. And she didn't even try.

Sara:

But Menis is a man and he can direct the narrative in ways that Penelope can't,

Lilly:

I mean, yeah, but I'm just saying I,

Sara:

I think it would've gone poorly for Penelope if she had tried to push back at that time. even still, because we have seen throughout the, like the story how even though there are societal rules and regulations, if it's a man flaunting them, it kind of is okay. And if it's a woman doing it, whoa.

Lilly:

I mean even a kiss assie, like, oh, please don't bother yourself with that. And then immediately back down if he like continues.

Sara:

She does that.

Lilly:

Hmm.

Sara:

She does that, she does that about the wine. She does that about like the, the meat. She does that in a lot of, for a lot of things.

Lilly:

Does. Okay.

Sara:

She is, she's like, you don't have to go you know, hunting here, I'll show you where the good hunting spots are. Or like, you don't have to, to bring your own wine. It reflects poorly on me as a host.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

Like she does, she does push back in those little kiss assy ways

Lilly:

Alright. Fair

Sara:

and, and then yeah, she backs down immediately, but

Lilly:

Well, yeah, of course. Because you have to like, you're not actually gonna go to toe to toe with Menis. Of course. That, yeah, that I have no problem with.

Sara:

she does, have like, when it makes sense, she does have those statements.

Lilly:

enough. Again, the payoff absolutely gets there for me, so it's fine. But that was my experience reading the book. I was just like, oh, please. Anyway, I, we both are like immediately ready to read the next book and I know for me, I'm very curious if it's the same situation for you. For me it is because I am so concerned about Odysseus.

Sara:

I am a hundred percent worried. So the book basically ends, with Odysseus washing up on the shores of Ithaca. And I am really worried that he's going to be an asshole.

Lilly:

Yeah. We have no idea what he's like. Penelope has no idea what he's like. Is he gonna be like layer Ts and recognize that Penelope is great. Is an asset. Is he gonna be like every other king we've seen? That's not fair. Arrestees is chill. He's a

Sara:

Yeah. But arrestees is also mad.

Lilly:

not at the end.

Sara:

Not at, not at the end, but I still don't know how much he recognizes Penelope as being great because he's recovering.

Lilly:

He respects his sister's autonomy though.

Sara:

He does respect his sister's autonomy. That's true.

Lilly:

And so like, yeah, maybe not Penelope, but who is she to him? He doesn't know Penelope. That's fine.

Sara:

I mean, they are related, but Yeah.

Lilly:

Yeah. Everyone is related. This is Greek mythology.

Sara:

But yeah, I'm I'm so worried I need to read book three.

Lilly:

I think in the perfect world, Odysseus will roll up and he will start off like an ass. That over the course of the book, he will come to learn and realize how great Penelope is. Maybe he'll have a heart to heart moment with Layer Ts could be good, and then it will end with them in a mutually respectful marriage.

Sara:

I hope so.

Lilly:

That's my like, because he can't just show up and be great that there's not, like not a lot of conflict and story there.

Sara:

I mean, there's conflict in other ways because of the whole like having to deal with the suitors stuff. But I agree there's not a lot of interpersonal con conflict in that.

Lilly:

I don't feel like that's the story North is going for, I guess is what I should say,

Sara:

probably not. You're probably right about that.

Lilly:

although I guess he could in the way that Menis respected Penelope as not his equal, but as a foe worth fighting. EU might respect Penelope, but not trust her.

Sara:

yeah, I mean also in the Odyssey, like he doesn't talk to her until he reveals himself at the very end.

Lilly:

Right.

Sara:

So we. Could in theory go, you know, 80% of the story without him actually interacting with Penelope in a way that she recognizes as him being Odysseus.

Lilly:

Right. So Penelope won't know that it's him, but he'll know that it's her.

Sara:

He, he will know that it's

Lilly:

And that kind of lens credence to the idea that like he's not revealing himself because he doesn't trust her.

Sara:

Yeah. Could be.

Lilly:

Like I could see that, like he could acknowledge how great and amazing she is, but not think that she would help him.

Sara:

I, I would not be mad about

Lilly:

Like that. Like I, Hmm.'cause there's two different sides of it, right? There's the them

Sara:

how far in book, how far in book three have you gotten?

Lilly:

I only actually read the, like, little intro that's at the end of this book,

Sara:

Okay.

Lilly:

so I, he's, he's still just on the beach.

Sara:

Okay.

Lilly:

is not spoilers, I promise.

Sara:

No, no, no. I wasn't, I wasn't worried about it being spoilers. I was just like interested in, if you had gotten any farther, if that had like had an effect on your perspective,

Lilly:

No, we've mostly just gotten Athena Waxing poetical about him.

Sara:

Okay. Fair enough.

Lilly:

Okay. Here, here's why I think it will end with him at least, at least the very least end with him respecting Penelope. Him liking her. That could go either way. I don't like, I care, obviously, but that's

Sara:

Claire North, even though the women in this book have not, or in this series have not had great ends, really, I feel like Claire North would not do that to us for the main, the main woman. She couldn't.

Lilly:

Well, and also the other women that have had bad ends, that has been written in history, that they had bad ends.

Sara:

True.

Lilly:

Penelope has a happily ever after according to the Odyssey, her husband comes home. She doesn't have to be queen anymore. Yay.

Sara:

True. Well, she still has to be queen, but she doesn't have to be ruler.

Lilly:

Yeah, and that was a sarcastic yay. Just for clarity,

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

Athena likes Penelope. We know this. She has helped Penelope and not only because she is helping Ithaca for Odysseus like. From her interactions with the other goddesses. I think it's clear that Athena likes Penelope,

Sara:

would agree.

Lilly:

and I don't think Athena's gonna let her special boy get away with ending the book. Not that Odysseus knows it's the end of the book, but you know what I mean. Ending the book, holding his wife in contempt. I don't think that's gonna happen.

Sara:

I don't think it's gonna happen either. But also I'm worried. And also, also I'm wondering what can we change on our schedule so that we read this

Lilly:

yeah, I know. Can we

Sara:

before August? Yeah.

Lilly:

well that is a calendar conversation. We can have off air. I think we can wrap up by saying, holy shit, I have a lot of emotions and I'm not done with this world.

Sara:

We have a lot of emotions and we are not done with this world.

Lilly:

Yes.

Sara:

Really excellent book. I like, I've loved both books in this trilogy that we've read, and I'm really looking forward to reading Book three.

Lilly:

I do, I didn't say this before, but I do have, her words are weird

Sara:

Oh.

Lilly:

at the end when there's the little counsel between Laies, arrestees, Menis and Penelope, and Arrestee says, as part of the, you know, agreement that we're going to have, you are going to send me your daughter Hermione to marry me because that's an old marriage pact. I'm gonna hold you to it. And Menal says something along the lines of, oh wow, so this is all wrapping up. So familial and snuggly. He did not say snuggly. That was me reading too fast at the time. He said, snugly. Which is a completely different word, except also an identical, I mean, not act like there's only one G, right? It's snugly, not snuggle, e.

Sara:

yes,

Lilly:

but I just had that moment of Oh, I completely misread the sentence.

Sara:

but the whole. Dialogue. I mean, all of the dialogue in this book is very anachronistic. You know, men is going where the fuck is arrestees?

Lilly:

Oh yeah. Yeah. As far as anachronisms go, that was not the problem. It, it's just the vibes of metal saying snuggle. That was kind of weird for me.

Sara:

okay. That's fair.

Lilly:

Snug is just, has very different

Sara:

it has a very different feeling.

Lilly:

snuggle.

Sara:

yes. Menis is not really a man who seems that he would say snuggle very often, if at all.

Lilly:

No. And so that was just a funny moment of the Yeah, the number of Gs there really, really changed that sentence. I mean, not in meaning, but just in tone.

Sara:

Yes. In in vibe.

Lilly:

Yes. No snuggling. This book is devoid of snuggling

Sara:

Nope.

Lilly:

even not even mentioned.

Sara:

Nope.

Lilly:

That was it. That was my words are weird.

Sara:

It's a good. Words are weird. To be fair,

Lilly:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at Fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on our YouTube channel.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye.