Fiction Fans

Nostalgia Book Club: Ella Enchanted by Gail Carson Levine with OWWR Pod

• Episode 181

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Your hosts are joined by Hannah and Laura from OWWR Pod to discuss Ella Enchanted by Gail Carson Levine, part of their Nostalgia Book Club series. They talk about how much less weird it would be if the characters were a little older, the dark implications of Ella’s obedience curse, and of course, Anne Hathaway.


Find more from On Wednesdays We Read:

https://owwrpod.com/

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I'm so pleased that we are welcoming back Hannah and Laura from On Wednesdays We Read to talk about Ella Enchanted by Gail Carson Levine.

Hannah:

wait to discuss

Laura:

So excited!

Hannah:

I know.

Lilly:

We're so excited to have you both. But before we talk about this wonderful book, or can you tell where I'm at on the spectrum? What's something great that happened recently? Sarah, would you kick us off?

Sara:

Something great that happened recently is I got to do front handsprings on the tumble track at my adult gymnastics class, and that was a lot of fun.

Hannah:

That's so

Laura:

Okay, you're taking an adult gymnastics class. Why are you the coolest person on the planet?

Sara:

I'm, really not that

Hannah:

You're like our friend, our friend Veronica will suddenly, I'll be like talking to her and she's like, yeah, I'm learning to like throw pottery right now. Oh yeah, I have to go on my like yoga thing. And I'm like, why are you just so cool? I don't, I wish.

Laura:

feel like anytime Sarah just like randomly says something just like very nonchalantly about something she's doing It's like something really extraordinary And she's just like I just have to go to my gymnastics class and I just did like a Simone Biles move. It's no big deal

Sara:

Simone, Simone Biles is way better. Just putting that out there, but I

Lilly:

so humble, she doesn't think she's on the same level as an Olympic gold

Laura:

like I got second place to Simone Biles, but it's not a big deal

Sara:

But I, so I did gymnastics as a child. So it's not like I'm coming to this with no background whatsoever. I mean, yes, it's been a long time. But it, like, I have done this before. It's, it's not, I'm not starting from zero.

Laura:

And you're tall too. I always feel like tall people can't do gymnastics.

Sara:

cannot do, that is why I stopped doing gymnastics, is because I got too tall, actually. Like, I really wanted to be a professional gymnast and, like, compete in, well, I competed at very low levels, but I wanted to, like, go the distance. And then I grew and kept growing. And it, that does not work for, yeah, that does not work very well for gymnastics, so.

Hannah:

that is very fair. I do know that that is a rule of gymnastics that you kind of have to be tiny. So.

Laura:

Yeah,

Sara:

well, it's, it's just the physics of it. Like, you can actually do all of the tumbling a lot better if you're short and compact. Like, it's not that you can't do gymnastics if you're tall, it's that it's a whole heck of

Laura:

like you're flopping around like Gumby practically that it's like, oh no.

Lilly:

What have you got for us today?

Hannah:

I went to a book signing in Chicago last night for Oathbound by Tracy Dion. We covered The Legend Born, first two books over on our pod and the third one just got released. So, I was able to get tickets and I got a book signed for Laura so now she has to get the hardback versions but it was just amazing, you know, she took questions and I loved it. I I always like appreciate she's a YA author and there were like teens who got to be like the primary focus for questions. So it wasn't just like a bunch of adult women being like, and I have a question about these children running around in this book. Like there was that too, but I did appreciate like listening to younger people who love reading.

Lilly:

Were there any of the, my favorite is always the, This is more of a comment than a question.

Hannah:

No, there were quite a few, like, before I ask my question, I just want to tell you that this is amazing, you know, and I did appreciate that, and I also, I don't know, I, I'm a white woman coming into that space, and I appreciated, like, just being kind of a part of the community and being able to watch it, and I did make sure that my white husband and I sat in the back so that people of color could be front and focused for the talk, so, I think that's important to mention, too.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Laura:

You didn't make it about you, good.

Hannah:

He was like, why are we sitting in the back? And I was like, don't, don't ask.

Lilly:

Trust me. Just trust me.

Hannah:

Just trust me. This is

Laura:

Also

Hannah:

we should be

Laura:

for like a YA event, it's like,

Hannah:

Could you imagine if I was

Laura:

people in their

Hannah:

up front, like right up in the front, like

Laura:

I'm so excited for you to get me my hardback cover now. I have the two paperbacks and I was like, Oh, I'm going to wait until the next paperback comes out, but I'll get the audio book. Cause I can't wait. And then Hannah was like, well, you're getting a hardcover. I was like. Okay, well I guess I'm gonna have to get some more hardcovers because I want them all to match.

Sara:

Oh darn.

Laura:

Darn it, more books. But a good thing that's happened to me is I have tons of baby goats coming right now. This is like, the month or so that I had, apparently everybody decided they're going to have their babies. They all got together five months ago and decided that this was the month. So I've got lots of babies right now and they're so sweet and I love spending time with them. They're just, they just make my life happy.

Hannah:

Laura is five months. The gestational amount of time for goats. I was thinking

Laura:

Yes. It it's like 151 days.

Hannah:

Okay. I was curious, sorry not to go on a tanja about goats, but the other day I was like, how long are goats pregnant for? So,

Laura:

always willing to go on a tangent about goats.

Sara:

I feel like that's a good thing to go on a tangent about, actually.

Lilly:

Well, you said a bunch. How many is a bunch?

Laura:

So, I had ten does bred, and so far four of them have kitted, so I've got six more to go.

Lilly:

Damn, there's some work ahead of you.

Sara:

That is a lot of baby goats.

Hannah:

it's,

Laura:

baby goats. I took on too much this year, because now I'm at the point where Already not even halfway, and I've got so many of these baby goats, I'm like, I think I'd like to keep that one, I'd like to keep that one. And my husband's like, you gotta make some decisions here because we cannot keep all these goats. So, if you're in the Midwest area and looking for some goats, let me know.

Hannah:

it's very cute to visit her farm during this time and just like, watch them all play together and just like, jump around. It's, it's amazing.

Laura:

They're very cute.

Lilly:

Amazing. Yeah,

Laura:

chasing that hobbit lifestyle.

Sara:

not, I'm not the person who has to take care of them, so I'll just go and visit.

Lilly:

it sounds great to visit.

Hannah:

I visit. and I pet little cute like fuzzy noses or like smooth noses and then I

Laura:

know about you guys though, but I feel like I am constantly taking on more hobbies and then like turning those hobbies into work where I'm like, Oh, you know what? I will just start raising goats and then it's like, this is a lot of work and then it's like, you know what? I'll start doing this or that. Now it's a business. All your hobbies become businesses.

Hannah:

for Christmas she gave me a small business owner's like goat soap and she was like that's made with my goat milk and I was like of course it is so

Sara:

Okay, but that's really cool.

Hannah:

Right?

Laura:

Just a flex on my part.

Hannah:

It's great soap. I've been using it to wash all my dishes.

Lilly:

Well, my good thing is that we were supposed to have guests over later today, and they cancelled, which means I have so much food prepped and I don't have to do jack shit.

Laura:

Introvert dream.

Lilly:

Hang out and eat all of the guest food.

Hannah:

I went to Costco recently and we always buy a platter of Mac and cheese whenever we go to Costco. So tonight is a Mac and cheese night. We just get to throw it and eat that for dinner.

Sara:

Nice.

Lilly:

What is everyone drinking for our lovely recording?

Sara:

It is very warm out, so I didn't want to drink tea so I'm drinking cider, which will also ensure that I do go on my run today. If I'm drinking cider now, I have to, I have to go on my run. A pre treat. That's how it works.

Hannah:

Pre treat. I am drinking, I bought my husband a, an espresso machine for Christmas, so he makes me lattes now. So I'm drinking an oat milk latte with some caramel

Laura:

Mmm.

Hannah:

in it. It's delightful.

Laura:

Yum.

Lilly:

the best gift to give to your husband.

Hannah:

It's so, especially when he has no problem making the lattes, like I don't have to make them. So.

Laura:

I just have water. Staying hydrated so I can take care of all these goats.

Sara:

I've

Lilly:

I'm technically drinking beer, very off brand for me. But it's Taiwan beer, and it's Sweet lychee. It's, it's lychee juice with the beer word on it. It's very good. And we're about to talk about Ella Enchanted, but has, has anyone read anything else good lately?

Sara:

just been doing podcast reading.

Laura:

So I read Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower recently for a book club.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Laura:

It was so good. Our whole book club loved it. It was, but the, it was just, you've read it obviously by that reaction and were you like freaked out by like how much she was able to predict what's happening and like, oh my gosh, no.

Lilly:

We read it like in August? Like pretty recently.

Sara:

we read it recently for the podcast, and it was really odd reading it because some of the Days that we read it matched up with dates in the book and the events actually matched up a little too well, too. So it was a very kind of creepy feeling.

Laura:

yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of the stuff that we were talking about at book club, we were just like, yeah, like this is happening right now or this is going to happen. We see this happening. So, but it was just, it was really a slow burn, but easy to read and just very like, I don't want to say eye opening, but just kind of a wow factor book.

Hannah:

I also recently listened to Ta Nehisi Coates's The Message. That is his most recent not, or not novel, but kind of rumination. He's someone who writes a lot about like different travels. This was his travels into Palestine and his experience there. And I think it was very interesting and very sad listening to it because we kind of know what happened after he stopped traveling there. And so that was a very interesting read, picked, I listened to it in February, which is straight, or like right at the end of February into March. So it was interesting to read and kind of experience more. I think that's my third or fourth book of his and it's, he's an excellent writer. So. Yeah,

Lilly:

I haven't read any of his work, but that sounds really cool.

Hannah:

he, he talked a little bit about all of his different books because he has like Between the World and Me, which I believe that's the book. I also listened to that one on audiobook. He reads them all himself, which is great. And that's like a conversation with like his son, I believe, or that might be another one. And then he's also made a fantasy book called The Water Dancer, which is amazing. And he kind of talks about all four books that he's done as like his children. And he, he also wrote one called We Were Eight Years in Power about the. Barack Obama presidency and he, like, kind of wrote on it every single year he would, like, come back to it. And I started that one and never finished it and, like, the way he described all of his children, I've read three out of the four, that's it. And he was, like, yeah, that's kind of, like, my forgotten middle child and I was, like, oh, that tracks with my experience with those books.

Sara:

Oh no.

Hannah:

I got called out, so.

Lilly:

Well, we have a bit of a light hearted conversation for ourselves today. Our Nostalgia Book Club reconvenes to talk about Ella Enchanted. How many of us had read it before, read it as children? Like, where are we at, Laura? Sarah.

Hannah:

Lily, have you read the book or did you read it as a child?

Lilly:

I did the deep cut Lily lore. This is the only book I've ever stolen.

Hannah:

Oh,

Lilly:

I stole it from my classroom library because I read it and I was like, I'm the only one who will appreciate this book. I deserve to own it.

Hannah:

So I am amidst enemy territory here because I've never read this book.

Laura:

Oh, I was thinking this was gonna be one which was a full sweep.

Hannah:

I had never read Ella Enchanted, but I did watch the movie growing up, which I know is like hated among the Ella Enchanted readers of the world. So I will be first to admit that. But I did grow up in a very feminine household where we got this and this was very much a cross stitching movie where we would cross stitch to this movie quite often when I had things for 4 H to do, so I knew the broad strokes, but I also knew that the book was very different. I knew to kind of walk in not expecting you know, Ella to be fighting for the rights of elves and things like that, so.

Sara:

think I've ever seen the movie, or if I have, I watched it once. Like right when it first came out and I don't remember anything about it.

Laura:

I that there's a Queen song in it. And

Hannah:

Yes, there is a Queen song.

Laura:

I don't remember a whole lot else. But I don't remember hating it. Like, when you're saying that Ellen Chanta fans are like, Oh no! I don't remember hating it.

Hannah:

A lot of people disliked it. I remember there was like a lot of discourse because it was very different and it also reeks of the early like 2000s so like very much like girl power and like

Laura:

I mean, it's Anne Hathaway. She was probably just done with Princess Diaries and they were like, we need more.

Hannah:

And so it was very much like there's, she's very political in the movie the king is dead in the movie. And his brother is kind of like helping Prince Char and he's evil and wants to take over the kingdom. And he is also like, Implemented a lot of rules that go against like, elves have to be like cookie makers or shoe makers and it's a weird, like, a lot of jokes about, you know, race and things like that. And Ella is this amazing person and Char doesn't really care and she has to meet him and open his eyes to what his kingdom means and his responsibilities in the world and things like that. So it's a very different energy than

Laura:

Yeah, I'm really not remembering that.

Hannah:

just

Sara:

gonna say that does sound quite different from the

Hannah:

Yeah, it's incredibly different. Like I was reading it.

Laura:

Maybe I only saw

Hannah:

nothing like this. So, and at one point she like they go to it. They do go to the giant wedding, but like Char's with her and they tell her to sing. So she sings a song to them. and like the ending is incredibly different, because the ending, it's like a weird, we can get into it, we can actually talk about the book first, but I can tell you that it's just, I can be the expert on the movie, because I watched it many times, so,

Lilly:

will say having been a fan of the book and watching the movie when it came out, it just felt like a completely different story. I just never really, yeah, it's Ella Enchanted, but it's not. Like, they're just two completely different things. And if you approach it that way, it's fine.

Laura:

Yeah. more of a based on, based upon.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Hannah:

Inspired by.

Lilly:

Which also, obviously, inspired by Cinderella, right? This is a Cinderella retelling. And I really liked the way that Levine sort of gets all of the main points of the story, but approaches it so differently. I thought that was really delightful.

Laura:

for sure. It does feel like kind of a fresher take on Cinderella than other retellings, probably of the time too.

Hannah:

I was really surprised by all the different elements we saw. Like I wasn't expecting the pumpkin carriage or things like that to come up. I, I was very surprised by the, the last third of the novel. I kind of thought like the first 66 percent I was like, Oh, it's going to be done soon. And then they got into more of the Cinderella retelling and like delved a bit deeper. And I was really surprised by that, that we got to see more of the Cinderella lore towards the back end of the book.

Sara:

Yeah, I feel like the Cinderella aspect of the story doesn't actually come in until that, like, last third. Like, the first, the first two thirds is very kind of divorced from the fact that it's a retelling, a Cinderella retelling. And then we get it all at the end, which I suppose makes sense just the way that the Cinderella story itself is so heavy on, like, the ball. And that's just a small, you know, one small event, really.

Lilly:

And instead we get to see, like, this young woman growing up and she develops a personality and has a pen pal who is the hot prince instead of in like there's no insta love in this book.

Laura:

And there's, it makes sense that they actually fall in love because they, wha wha what, know each other?

Sara:

They've actually had conversations about deep things? What a

Laura:

Shock?

Hannah:

She reads his personal diary and letters to other people via magic

Lilly:

I stan a toxic queen, okay? It

Laura:

that and I'm like, I would do it too.

Hannah:

I mean, at the time she's like 14, so it's like, yeah, a 14 year old would definitely steal the letters of her crush.

Sara:

it's not her fault that this is in this magic book that, that her fairy godmother gave her. Really, we should be blaming Mandy for this. It's not Ella's fault.

Lilly:

was an irresponsible gift.

Hannah:

It is an irresponsible, and she can't do anything like turn the page or anything.

Sara:

No!

Laura:

Nobody directed

Sara:

I will say though that, um, I do think that this book aged better than Just Ella. Like I think it's, I think it's a better book than Just Ella,

Laura:

For sure.

Sara:

which is the other Cinderella retelling that we have read for our Nostalgia Book Club.

Hannah:

to the point where Sarah asked if we were covering just Ella and both Laura and I were like, didn't we just read that? Yeah,

Lilly:

came out in 1997 and Just Ella came out in 1999. Not a good look for that book.

Laura:

No, yikes. Especially with all the war and running away and everything that

Hannah:

This one feels like it was meant for a younger audience, though, so it felt like they were coming back two years later and they were like, well, you loved Just Ella. So what if we made you an older version of that? And it was worse. So

Sara:

There weren't as many. weird gender roles in this as they were in Just Ella. And I feel like we're gonna spend a certain amount of time comparing the two books because we have, them. But this felt much more, balanced. Like there's some weird stuff going on, but usually it's imposed by the antagonists and like very clearly presented as weird. So that felt better.

Hannah:

did feel better. I didn't love how much, like, as an adult reading this. It's like, was dripping with Ella being not like the other girls, like, Oh, she's funny and

Laura:

That's what we like, about She learns languages.

Hannah:

Yeah, she, she can learn. I think that's good, but it was very much like, Oh, she. Is the good one. And I do think like having the character of a Rita helped with that, but it was very much like she singularly is amazing. And every other woman in here, besides Mandy, who is ugly, is kind of the worst. And

Laura:

was just, I was just gonna mention too how there's very much a focus on appearance that I I think is really prevalent within these types of like young adult to middle grade books where we're talking especially with like a female heroine where it's like everyone who is not the main character is Ug ly. Very, very ugly. Unless they're my friend and then they're just kind of old and No,

Lilly:

is described in a very unflattering way, I would say probably a normal middle aged adult, but not, not nicely described. But she is supposed to be a good character and a good, like, friend to Ella, so I thought that was interesting. Like, not all of the ugly characters were bad guys.

Hannah:

That's true.

Laura:

but like the stepsister, like the mentions of her teeth and everything like, come on, not a good look Ella. Quit talking about her teeth.

Hannah:

And she ripped off that girl's wig.

Laura:

Yeah, you know, it's hard because like, you're 14. She's been terrible too. She needed, she needed a little payback.

Hannah:

I do love that she stole a girl's wig been tormenting her, because in the book her soon to be stepsister figures out that she has to do whatever she's told and she does awful things to her. And she takes the wig, but then she like sells it, and the merchant, or the person she sells it to is like, this is great, and I'm like, okay, we love a man who knows the worth of

Laura:

Great.

Lilly:

So, how did this book handle that obedience curse? So it's supposed to be a gift, a fairy shows up when Ella is born and gives her the gift of obedience, quote, unquote, heavy, heavy quotes. And then the book immediately gets kind of hardcore with it, of like, oh yeah, she can be ordered to do terrible stuff. And the first couple chapters are pretty dark,

Sara:

It's an interesting look at that kind of curse, I think. Like, it, it goes, you're right, it goes quite hard for a middle grade book. And she talks about how, like, Oh, she could be forced to stab herself or, like, kill other people and she would have no choice but to do it. Which is really interesting, I think. Like, that that's where it goes.

Laura:

I think even in terms of like, as you go farther along in the book and like, things happen where she feels conflicted about like, she actually does want to follow some, like, be obedient or be happy about some of the things that she's been cursed to do. She's very conflicted in those moments. I thought that was good too, but I, I feel like overall, just like the message that I think the author is trying to get across to kids about like, no, you should like consent to doing things and free will is a thing and you should be able to exercise your free will to live your life. I, I, Do enjoy that being a major theme.

Hannah:

I do think it's also interesting when you look at the beginning of the book, because it is really dark, Lily, like you were saying, because, you know, a person does find out about the curse and does use it to their advantage to the point where the mom is like, Well, you have to keep it secret because this could put you into danger. And she is monitored by people who are safe. but it also looks at it from a very realistic way where like, She talks about how Mandy does use the curse to her advantage sometimes, which is fine if it's a child and you're asking them to clean their room, but as she gets older, then Mandy is like, no, there's, there's a difference between what I was asking when you were a child and who you are now. And I do think you see that progression through the Mandy character where like. She doesn't tell Ella what to do as Ella gets older, because bodily autonomy is much more important to a 14 year old versus a five year old and things like that, where she is more mindful. And they even discuss things about like Ella growing up and having that. And I think that that's also an important message for children to hear, like, okay, just because you were told something as a child and it was fine when you were a child, there, there's a difference as you get older.

Lilly:

And

Laura:

Absolutely.

Lilly:

I think the turning point for Mandy was when Ella runs into Lucinda, the fairy that originally cursed her. Lucinda gives her the order to be happy about it, and when Mandy finds that out, she's like, Oh, fuck. That's, that's not okay.

Hannah:

huh. Uh

Lilly:

it's that moment of

Hannah:

huh.

Lilly:

Ella couldn't even have her own opinion that really sort of brought the stakes up, at least for Mandy, it seemed. And then, yeah, like, Laura, you were saying Ella liked being happy about it, and that she was so conflicted, like, for the first time in her life she wasn't upset, which was nice, but at the same time, Still not okay.

Laura:

Yeah. And even like late, like major spoilers for the end of the book, like later when she's being essentially ordered to marry Prince Char, she's like, like, this is something she wants to do. She does love him and everything, but she's like, no, I, Don't want this to be something that I'm being forced to do. I still want to enter into this relationship willingly.

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

Okay, I will say, being forced to marry Prince Char, or given the order to marry Prince Char, and how that's ultimately what, like, drives her to, to break the curse on herself. I do wish that it had not been like, that she hadn't needed her love for a guy to actually

Laura:

To break the curse.

Sara:

To do it, like, and I know there, there is mention of, here are the reasons why the other dangerous situations she was put in did not drive her to do this because she wasn't actually in danger at any point, but we don't know that, like, necessarily at the time that she's going through those things. And so, especially, like, when she meets the Ogres and they're about to, like, eat her, you would think that That would help her, you know, find the inner strength to break the curse, but no, it's because she doesn't want to do bad things to, to her beloved Prince Char.

Lilly:

And she can't betray her country. was the patriotism was nuts.

Laura:

it's loyalty to her country.

Hannah:

And her huh. Uh

Laura:

We can all relate

Lilly:

Was that Levine's way of trying to go like, it wasn't true love, it was because the consequences were so far reaching. But I don't think that really

Sara:

I mean, maybe a little, but I don't think that it worked.

Hannah:

Yeah, I do wonder if there was supposed to be I agree with Sarah that I don't think it really worked for me. Because it's just like, Oh, I can't marry him and that made me break the curse. I didn't really But I, like, I didn't, I was like, okay, you just don't want to be told to marry him, but you're going to marry him anyway. So like, this is just a weird situation where it didn't feel like the stakes were that like, oh my gosh, I can't say yes. You know, it's like, you could explain to him in certain ways why you fear that, you know, but I, I do think that Levine tried to say throughout the. book that Ella was growing up and that's what led her to do this. Like even when she's back with the ogre, she's still young. She's just running away from finishing school. She doesn't really get all of the realities of her situation at times. Cause she just keeps thinking like, Oh, if only I could just get a fairy to undo it all, then it would be fine. And it's actually the progression of her. Character that gets her to breaking the curse where she meets Lucinda. They have multiple conversations about consequences of actions. They have multiple conversations about bodily autonomy. And she has that moment with Mandy where Mandy starts saying like, well, now I have to call you lady. Not a great look because I mean, this woman has been with her her entire life, but this is the structure that we're under. But she's like, well, I have to call you lady because now you are grown up and now you have matured to the point where you understand the realities of the world, not just about how it affects you, and I think that that's what leads her to break the curse, technically. But I don't think it's very effective.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I mean, I, I agree with you, Hannah. I do think that If she had been in the same situation at the beginning of the book, she wouldn't have been able to do it, because it does require all of that character progression that we see throughout the book, and, and she does have to, like, grow and age and, and become a little bit more self aware. But it still is a little frustrating that, that that is the situation that brings it all to And I mean, I do get it because, like, this is a Cinderella retail thing, and it, it ends where Cinderella ends,

Laura:

It was always gonna be about the prince. There's like no way around it.

Hannah:

It all ends with him not being able to tell who she is because she puts cinders on her face and he's like, are you sure you're not Ella? And I'm like, that's a woman who's just lying to your face. What are you talking about?

Lilly:

I feel like I read a picture book when I was very young that, like, the prince had Is it aphasia? Where you can't recognize faces? Yeah. Hi, future Lily here. That is not what it's called. It is called prosopagnosia. Whoops. Yeah.

Laura:

just gonna blame it on like, dude's not paying attention.

Hannah:

He just loves her personality so much because she's so much not like the other girls. He can't even look at her face, so. Which is so fun. I did laugh during the ball scenes, like, Ella has to wear a mask when everyone else would be unmasked, which I wasn't like, why don't they just put a rule in there that everyone has to wear masks so we don't have this whole plot point? Because I was sick of hearing like, maybe she has a scar on her face. But like, it was incredibly funny to me that that was like, the biggest concern of like, well, maybe under there, there's like a rash or something and she's ugly.

Sara:

Well, I mean, we know that being ugly is one of the greatest sins possible, so.

Laura:

How dare they?

Lilly:

We talked about Hattie a little bit, the awful stepsister who figures out that Ella has this obedience curse. But there's also Olive. And I feel really bad for Olive. Yeah.

Sara:

like, she deserved a mother who actually cared about her education, and a sister who wasn't terrible.

Hannah:

I didn't like Olive. She was

Laura:

I mean, I

Hannah:

poor people.

Laura:

but

Sara:

I don't, think, to be clear, I don't think they're great people, but I think that that's possibly an issue of nurture rather than nature. Like, they have this mother who clearly is a social climber and doesn't really care about them except what they can do, to bring the family worth, and who has kind of, it, it seems like, given up on Olive and spent all of her attention on Hattie, who's maybe a little more conventionally attractive,

Hannah:

put a wig on her, like,

Sara:

If you, if you put a

Hannah:

put a wig on, I kept being like, if you put a wig on Olive, is she gonna look better too? Like, why did you make that decision?

Sara:

I don't know, I mean, but, and maybe it has to do with the fact that Olive is illiterate, but if you just got Olive some education, like, if you spent a little more time, like, maybe she's dyslexic or something, like, if you actually worked with her, you could, you can bring her up to speed, like, it's not like illiteracy can't be It's not Handled.

Laura:

I do think as an adult, like reading these things, it is a lot easier to feel a lot of sympathy for Hattie and Olive, just because you're like, okay, there's a lot of trauma here that is not being dealt with

Sara:

Yeah, I don't think I liked them as a kid, to be clear. But I do think it's interesting that they both kind of get happy endings.

Hannah:

I mean, Hattie less than Olive,

Sara:

Hattie, less than Olive, yeah. But it's not, it doesn't sound like she has an unhappy ending. Like, she still is able to leverage her connection to Ella to get marriage. Olive finds someone who pays her to spend time with him,

Hannah:

and he talks to her. I did feel bad when she was like, her biggest wish was someone to talk to her.

Laura:

I

Hannah:

That is very sad.

Lilly:

she finds out That Ella must obey her every command and she's like, Hang out with me.

Laura:

Ugh.

Hannah:

like, tell me a story, talk to me. That is sad. But I, I I found less sympathy for the girls, just pragmatically, because I just can't handle people who are awful right now, but I did find, not exactly sympathy, but I understood that they were children, like I understood that a 14 year old found out that a girl who's prettier than them has to be obedient, and I was like, yeah, there are some 14 year old girls who would be awful, because that's just the case, but like there are some of, you know, Boys or any child who's 14 being awful, but it made sense to me. I don't know if I found myself overly sympathetic because it's one of those where it's like, okay, well, yes, some, some people would do this, but like, also I think it's a bridge too far to steal someone's mother's necklace or

Lilly:

but that was Hattie.

Hannah:

Have her be poor and give her all your money when like this, this woman doesn't have a pot to piss it and you're like, give me the few coins you have because I need more wealth. It's like, well, at that point, you're just being cruel. And I think that there's like that line between I can understand but I can still, you know, it's context, not an excuse.

Sara:

I'm not sure though that, and I, I agree with your point, but I'm not sure that, that Hattie and Olive recognize just how cruel they're being. Hattie maybe, like Hattie I think is a lot more intentional about it, but I think Olive just doesn't, like genuinely doesn't. get it because she has these terrible examples and she's also a little younger.

Laura:

Yeah, I think it does kind of play back into like the upbringing and the trauma that they're growing up in where it's like, they're becoming awful because they know no other way.

Sara:

yeah. So I, I do feel bad for them. Yes, they could have been better. There are plenty of, of people their age who would have been better, but, they also have this terrible upbringing. So I think it is at least understandable, if not excusable.

Lilly:

so, a lot of the consent issues we've talked about so far have been around the obedience curse. But also, at one point, Ella's father doses her with love

Hannah:

Oh my gosh, that was awful. Her dad is terrible in this book. It's

Laura:

Well, and also, I guess if we're talking about like people growing out of trauma and everything, her dad is horrendous to her and she does not become a totally awful person. So there is the flip side of this where it's like, he's pretty, pretty

Lilly:

and Mandy,

Sara:

Yeah, she, she had, she had these other role models to teach her better.

Hannah:

the first 13 years of her life were without him because she makes a point of

Laura:

That's true. That's

Hannah:

around. Like,

Laura:

Yeah, he never talks to her or anything, but still he's real bad.

Sara:

He, is, but it's interesting the ways in which he's bad, because there are moments when he's almost a person, and not just like this terrible caricature. Like, he doesn't care if she rebels, necessarily. Like, he doesn't mind her attitude or things like that. So it was a really weird juxtaposition.

Hannah:

Well, I think it kind of goes back to something we talk a lot about where it's like, I don't mind you being rebellious to the point. Until it's an inconvenience for me and then you're a woman and you have to do what I tell you to and like I think that there is a certain flavor of that when he has someone who is like, Oh, I find you charming. I find it hilarious that you're like going to do this, but also if I need you to get married, I'm just going to dose you and we're all going to agree that that's okay because you are my property and that's the same with it. Yeah. He knows, like Ella tells him what his wife is doing and he knows that he doesn't love his wife because he loves his wife. He knows it's because he was put under a curse and he has to love her, but he is very quick to be like, okay, well, you know, the only option for you isn't, it's not to come travel with me or for me to talk to my wife and be like, Hey, this is inappropriate. You can't do this. You love me. No, it's well, you'll just have to deal with it until I find you a husband. And it's still like, very like you are my property.

Lilly:

That love potion scene was nuts, though. So, he's trying to dose a much older man. And Ella, because he wants to get her married to someone rich. And what, the, the guy avoids it. He like, doesn't like mushrooms Or something, is

Sara:

Or he's allergic or,

Hannah:

yeah.

Lilly:

Uh, so he just doesn't.

Laura:

wasn't this still under the point where she was like supposed to be happy with everything that happened to her? Okay,

Lilly:

Then Mandy tries to get around it. She tries to replace it with different mushrooms, but the dad catches her. And so only Ella eats these mushrooms and then spends the whole night just like, totally sucking up to this I'm gonna say gross old man, because he shouldn't have

Laura:

I'm

Lilly:

the attention.

Hannah:

Well, she's 15 because he's shocked that she's 15 and then her dad, who put her under a potion to act like this later, is like, you're such a flirt. And it's like, no, you drugged your daughter.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. I think it's interesting that the, the book didn't use the obedience curse for that moment. I guess because the dad doesn't know about it, but it's still The, the threat of the obedience curse through almost the entire book is always violence, for the most part. And so the one time that it is, affection, or, I mean, the awful end conclusion, sexual assault, from this Like, love mushroom. It's very particular to say, like, it's not the curse that is doing this, it is this other effect. And I don't, I don't know what is going on there, but it felt very purposeful.

Laura:

I'm glad it didn't delve into that. That would have been a real bad way to go.

Sara:

I do wish, and this is probably not something that was ever a concern or ever a consideration because this is like a middle grade book. I bought this book at a Scholastic book fair and you know, at school. But I do wish that it had. Dealt a little bit more with the implication of her father dosing her with a love potion because it's, it's just kind of like, this is a thing that happens and then they all get over it.

Laura:

That's so common, though, in like these middle grade, like, fantasy fairytale things, though. Like, something really shocking like that happens and it's just like, NBD, we're going to a ball now. Like, okay. Oh,

Sara:

and there's, there's no, like actual discussion about how this was a violation or how her father is really terrible for doing this to her. And I get that that's just the nature of the genre, I do think that that is doing a disservice to the children who read this book.

Laura:

for sure.

Hannah:

a pretty dark book to read as an adult for the first time. And I will say the

Laura:

Why?

Hannah:

the thing that kind of like, I don't know if I can tell you guys, this is a little bit of a spoiler on like, I don't know if I enjoyed this book that much, as an adult reading it, for the first time, sorry, but because it felt a little bit like it was trying to be, another book that we read, which, which, where it's like, oh, there are all these funny, ironic moments happening, but at the 15 year old child doing this. So like it, Changes things and it feels like the stakes are higher and I don't know why we're treating it with this much flippancy and it just kind of, it felt very strange because we kept going from like vignette to vignette to vignette. And there is a like overarching character line, but it didn't feel like there was an overarching plot. It just felt like we were moving to different scenes. So Ella could have character growth and that felt. The clunkiest to me where the dad is like, well, we have to marry you off. It's great. I ran into you here. You ran away from finishing school. Let me drug you. Oh, now you don't need to get married. I'll get married instead. And I'm like, well, this is bizarre. It's just like, what's happening.

Lilly:

I agree reading it now, it felt like Ella should have been, like, five years older.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And I wonder if that was just the ten year olds reading it. don't understand that 20 year olds exist, and so you had to say that she was 15.

Laura:

I mean, it's definitely just a thing that I feel like when I, I feel like when I read it, I was like, wow, she's so mature and old. And I think you're right, Lily, that 10 year olds reading this aren't going to be. Recognize this whole age thing because 15 is ancient to somebody who's 10.

Hannah:

But you could have easily made her 17. Like.

Laura:

Oh, I'm not excusing the author. I'm just saying, I don't think the intended age group for this book is going to pick up on some of these things.

Sara:

pretty sure that I didn't, you know,

Lilly:

I think 15 is shorthand for, like, ancient, don't worry about it.

Laura:

hmm.

Lilly:

But, like, obviously when you're on the other side of that, you're like, oh no.

Hannah:

like, it was one of those things where I was like, why is the most historically accurate thing the fact that, like, there are ogres running around and the most thing is like, back in that day, 15 was about the time you got married.

Lilly:

So Lucinda eventually turns around and realizes that, hey, maybe these obedience, wishes, or not wishes, but blessings, are the worst. And yet she refuses to remove the curse, and that bothered me a lot.

Laura:

she sucks.

Hannah:

It just kind of felt like the plot plotting at that point where it was like, well, the book can't end yet, so it can't just be Lucinda breaking the curse because it has to be Ella.

Sara:

least there was some kind of justification, and I do kind of get it, like she's, Lucinda has done all of this huge big magic, and we know from Mandy from the very beginning that big magic is like a big no no for fairies, or it's supposed to be. And so, Lucinda has turned another leaf, she's not doing big magic anymore. And it's really unfortunate, but that includes reversing all of the bad stuff that she did before. So like, at least there's some justification. It sucks. It's pretty thin. But at least it tries.

Hannah:

So there is a weird different, again the movie is nothing like the book, but in the movie she does run into Lucinda and it's, so in the movie the, Char's

Laura:

you. I'll send you

Hannah:

tells Ella that Char is going to propose and when he does at midnight she is supposed to stab him and kill him. And so she tries to run away from the ball, to stay away from him, to keep him safe. And then Lucinda comes up and she's like, honey, I'm not going to take the curse away from you. I'm going to make you ready for the ball and just send you back to the Prince. And she like makes the situation worse. And it's a, it's a comedy of errors where Ella's sitting there like, please don't send me there. I like, this is going to end badly. And she's like, nope, you have to go. And she just sends her an address. And that's like the Cinderella. Fairy godmother aspect, which is funny in a 2000s context, but in the movie, Ella says, like, I need you to break this curse. And Lucinda says, like, you know, that's not my business. You know, I gave you this, it's up to you to break it. And there's like, little like nugget put in there, like, hey, eventually you could potentially do this yourself if you wanted to. And I felt like in this, it's like, No, I just can't do it. Sorry, I'm going to raise my hands. It just felt a little silly.

Lilly:

Yeah, I wouldn't want to meddle.

Sara:

we, we know from the beginning from Mandy that she can break this curse herself, that, that, Ella can break this curse herself. So we have had that kind of, like, nugget put in there. It's just that Lucinda clearly also could and she's just not doing it.

Hannah:

But she can turn a pumpkin into a carriage because that's not quote unquote Big Mac. I do like that Ella's like, she doesn't actually know what small magic is. So, like, she will help me.

Lilly:

I also I don't know if this is me just like rules lawyering this children's book, but the fact that she never comes up for a system with Mandy, for Mandy to just countermand any orders that are

Laura:

you come in, and

Lilly:

is a little frustrating.

Laura:

of these,

Lilly:

I get she can't tell people about the curse, sure, totally, but just like Quick, Mandy, tell me not to give all my money to Olive. That wouldn't be that hard.

Sara:

But it also is, like, curses can be countermanded, so even if, she asked Mandy to do that, if Olive said, give me all of your money, she, like, she would still have to give her all of her money.

Lilly:

Yeah, that's a bad example. But the ones that are like, I guess we see it a little bit with the parrot.

Laura:

but

Sara:

I, I do think that it's silly that all of her angst about, being able to tell Char, like, she could just turn to Mandi and say, Mandi, can I tell him? And Mandi could say, yes, tell, tell Char about the curse. Like, there are, I agree, there are some things that, that she could have, asked Mandi for help

Laura:

It does feel like, as she gets to know people a little more, it's like, okay, is this a trusted person that you can tell about this thing that you're going through that could maybe assist you in all of your struggles here, rather than just trying to juggle a bunch of lies to cover up the fact that you have this horrible thing happening to you? Yeah.

Hannah:

like, hey, don't give Hattie your mom's necklace. Go get that back.

Lilly:

yeah, that

Hannah:

do feel like there are certain things where it's like, Mandy has a very weird energy of plot witching where she's like, well, I'm here to explain things to you, but I'm not here to be part of the plot.

Sara:

Well, at the, at the point where Hattie has actually taken the necklace, Mandi's not in the picture.

Hannah:

Right, but she's like with them for a significant period of time later, and it's like, well, she could take it back.

Sara:

could have gotten it back at that point. Yes, I agree.

Lilly:

The moment that I think it's the most obvious is when Char comes back looking for Ella before he goes off on his, like, year long travels. And Hattie orders Ella to, like, stay hidden.

Hannah:

Well, I don't think Mandy was in the house yet. Mandy was traveling to them. She wasn't there yet.

Laura:

so she did, the author did really cover her tracks with This

Lilly:

yeah, yeah.

Hannah:

holds up.

Laura:

The more I think about it, I, no notes,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I did enjoy re reading this as an adult. There's a lot of problems with it. I do think that, it's not the worst book I've come back to as

Laura:

right? right?

Sara:

And so I had a lot of fun with it.

Lilly:

don't think the age thing bothers me nearly as much. I mean, obviously you're correct, but I just, like, from the perspective of a kid, it's all the same. Like, I don't think they're understanding that, like, 15 is a teenager. In the same way, and so it like, doesn't matter. I don't know. It doesn't bother, from that perspective, it doesn't bother me. As an adult, I would have much preferred her to be 25.

Laura:

That's just a very bothersome scene, honestly.

Hannah:

Yeah,

Sara:

I mean, I do, I do think that we have some nostalgia for this book, and

Laura:

was just gonna say, I do recognize some of the, like, criticisms and agree with them, but I do think that I just have a fondness for this book, but it makes me just like, eh, it's okay.

Hannah:

I made y'all read a book about Christmas angels. I'm not sitting on a high horse by saying I didn't enjoy this book. I am saying that there are

Laura:

We all rated

Hannah:

like

Laura:

out of 10, Hannah.

Hannah:

Christmas angels and horses so like I'm not like I think people who enjoy this book are well within their rights to enjoy it I think as someone who read it as an adult a I listened to it via audiobook and again weird children book things at the end of chapters They put music in to Tell the child that it's like, Oh, the chapter is breaking. So you could stop playing at this point. And I was like, yeah, I, I know what a chapter break is, but, I think this is one of the, I, there's only been a couple books that we've read together that I haven't read and had nostalgia for. And this one just seemed weirdly long to me. Like it just felt like it went on and on and on. And I think if it were shorter, I probably would have enjoyed it a little bit more. But like I said, it just like the overarching plot didn't flow for me. But I also don't think it's bad to have nostalgia for this book. I don't, I'm not sitting here being like, Oh, I am so much better than you all for not liking Ella Enchanted. I was just like, Oh yeah, it was a book and it was, I

Sara:

you have fondness for a different version of

Hannah:

Yeah. If we were, if we had watched the movie and you guys were all like, this was terrible. I'd be like, yeah, I get it. But like, I did watch that movie at least like seven times. I don't know what to tell you, you know?

Lilly:

I just think it's funny that we're over here defending this book with our lives, and when we read Christmas Angels you were like, yeah, it's crazy. So I think you do deserve a nostalgia high horse, actually.

Hannah:

But also Just Ella, I think I had a little bit more of a nostalgia high horse where I was like, it wasn't that bad. Like, yeah, it was bad, but it wasn't that

Laura:

think it's So interesting though because I, This is one of the few books that we've covered for Nostalgia Book Club that I did read as a kid. And I feel like it's so interesting being on the other side of it. Seen, like, someone be like, This is a bad book, like, you guys shouldn't like it. I'm

Hannah:

think this was a bad book whatsoever. I think it was better than Just Ella. I do actually I will sit on that high horse and say like better than Just Ella.

Laura:

You can say it's bad, I don't care.

Hannah:

think it's a bad, book. I think I personally was a little boring for me where I was like, what? Why are

Laura:

compared to every Like, I can come at this from someone who did not read Just Ella as a kid, and that one was, like, wild to me. Some of that stuff happening, they're like, What? Are you kidding me?

Hannah:

Yeah, I just think it was a little bit boring, but I also think like, I don't know if we kind of talked about this in just Ella, we're like, there are so many Cinderella retellings that if you don't have nostalgia for a certain one, you're kind of sitting there like, what the heck is going on? Like we recently in my household, we. Have nights where we watch crappy old movies from my childhood. It's a great time. We could have an offshoot of Nostalgia Book Club. That's just Nostalgia Movie Club. And recently we watched the Selena Gomez, Another Cinderella Story, because I think about that one constantly and we were watching it. I was like, well, this is like a fun time. My sister in law was like. This is a bad movie. And so I think like, because we are so like awash with Cinderella retellings, if you don't have nostalgia or a personal like tug at the heartstrings, it does fall a little flat because there, there's just so much you can consume Cinderella story retellings, like as much as you want to,

Sara:

So, are you going to watch the movie version now for your own,

Hannah:

you know, I never thought about, I never thought about adding it to it, but maybe I think so. We always do one good movie and. May or may not take a legal edible, and then we watch a second movie that's bad after that is hit.

Laura:

this the good or the bad movie?

Lilly:

Yeah,

Hannah:

I, think it might be a second movie pick.

Lilly:

Well, as far as Gail Carson Levine goes, I know Sarah and I also read The Two Princesses of Bamar.

Hannah:

Love that one. I read that one and it was great.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

I mean, I haven't read it in like decades, so I don't know if it stands up, but I remember it being really good.

Hannah:

Same. I remember being really upset that the action packed princess in my mind was the ugly princess. I was like, she's supposed to be the pretty one. She loves action.

Lilly:

but she's not the main character, so she can't be the

Hannah:

she can't be the pretty one, but I was very frustrated at the time. I do remember that like keyed in my because I loved that book. So. And Laura, you haven't read The Two

Laura:

I have not read that. Again, I did not read the nostalgia book.

Lilly:

Levine has a couple of other fairy tale retellings. There's one. The Snow White one follows her finishing school friend's sister,

Sara:

Yes. So that one came out, I think it's called Fairest. That one came out in 2006. I've not read any of the other retellings that are really like in this kind of universe, but, I've read the Wikipedia pages, which almost counts. But that one, that one came out in 2006. It does follow the sister of the finishing school friend, and it is a, Snow White retelling. And then she also has Ogre Enchanted, which is, which came out in 2018, which is a prequel, or it takes place before Ogre Enchanted, which is a prequel, or it takes place before. El Enchanted, I believe, but that is a gender bent Beauty and the Beast.

Lilly:

There's also a huge year gap there, which I think is fascinating. How has she grown as an author? Apparently

Sara:

I mean, there's a big year gap between El Enchanted and Faris, too. I mean, that's nine years versus twelve years.

Hannah:

I mean, I do think that she's a pretty important author who writes a lot of like fairytale retellings and things like that because I'm looking, she's relatively prolific. And when I look at the main ones on Wikipedia and like the front covers, I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember that cover. So even if I didn't always read the books, I always like grew up knowing about these books.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I think Gil Carson Levine was a She's still writing, obviously, but I think that for people of our, like, age and generation, I think she was an important middle grade author. I don't know how relevant she is to people who are growing up now, necessarily. But I think that for me personally, she was, she featured heavily in, in my, like, childhood reading.

Lilly:

a book came out in 2020. She's still going.

Laura:

I was gonna say, how old is she?

Hannah:

She's

Lilly:

I think

Laura:

77. Wow. oh, oh,

Sara:

for her unless she is publishing because she does not make enough money to survive.

Hannah:

Yeah.

Sara:

which,

Laura:

way to

Hannah:

cause it says. The book was revised in 2011. So I wonder if like, there were like specific updates or if it's more just like general updates.

Sara:

so I actually, even though I do own the, copy that I bought, probably in 98 or 99, I actually read an e book that I borrowed from the library, so I probably read the revised edition, is my guess. I,

Hannah:

I

Sara:

I guess I could go look at the table of contents and I didn't notice anything, that felt, Oh, there's a whole introduction that I didn't read because, because the book started on chapter one, not with any of the first stuff.

Hannah:

mean, What child's gonna read the?

Lilly:

I think that is just for adults going back and rereading the book.

Sara:

yeah, yeah, but, but I didn't like. recognize anything that felt noticeably different to me. But again, I haven't read my paper copy in a long, long time. So maybe, maybe they're different. I guess I could spend an afternoon reading the paper because it only, you know, would take me an hour, hour and a half. It's not actually that long of a book,

Hannah:

no,

Lilly:

Even when it feels like

Hannah:

even when it feels too long. I do find it funny because like the movie, like looking back on the movie is it screams 2004 because it's like, well, of course, Mandy, the old house fairy is mini driver. And they're like, well, she can't be a main character. She's 40. Like.

Lilly:

But yeah, so I think the question we ask ourselves at the end of this is, would you recommend this to a young person today?

Laura:

I don't know that I'd be pushing it on people, but I don't think I would be like, if somebody got it from the library, that I'd be like, slapping that out of their hands like, no, never read that.

Sara:

I think if someone was looking specifically for middle grade Cinderella retellings, I would recommend it. And then we would have a conversation about some of the things that were, problematic about it. But I, I don't think it's one of those that I would never recommend.

Hannah:

My sister also reads books with her children and I think I would recommend it for that. Like, oh, I think an adult person enjoying this with a child, great, like good overlap because there's enough nostalgia type language or when we were in middle school and then there's enough for children who want Cinderella retellings.

Lilly:

My answer is yes, I totally would.

Hannah:

Lily's like, I'm on board for this. Hannah's never invited back to Nostalgia Book Club.

Lilly:

No, please, I, if it's just me talking about how great books are, that's not interesting. But I'm not going to lie, my answer is yes. Well, thank you both for coming on to the podcast. What do you guys have going on over on our pod?

Hannah:

so over on Wednesdays, we read, we are finishing up our conversation of N. K. Jemisin's The Broken Earth Trilogy. It's an amazing sci fi fantasy. Everyone should read it. And this season is new because Laura is actually giving me the plot breakdown because she is rereading this book. Usually I'm the one doing the plots, but she's been helping out a lot with that. That's where we're covering that. And then after this is done, I think we are going to go back to Oathbound to continue on, with cycling through the legend born. So we have some great things coming down the pipeline for that. And of course, all the bonus content and things that we usually cover. So.

Sara:

And for listeners, where can you guys be found on the internet?

Hannah:

We can be found on all the social media platforms that we are currently on

Laura:

Sky and Instagram, basically.

Hannah:

at O W W R pod. Uh, you can also find us at ourpod. com and you know, we post a lot of stuff over there as well.

Lilly:

great. Well, thank you both. This has

Laura:

Thanks for having

Hannah:

Thank you for inviting us on to read a book that Hannah only thought was okay.

Sara:

it's always fun to do Nostalgia Book Club with you guys.

Laura:

For sure.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!