Fiction Fans

Of Shadows, Stars, and Sabers edited by Jendia Gammon and Gareth L. Powell

• Episode 177

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Your hosts discuss Of Shadows, Stars, and Sabers, a new anthology edited by Jendia Gammon and Gareth L. Powell. They talk about enjoying the mix of “new to them” and familiar authors, what makes a story a bummer (complimentary), and the experience of reading a short story that forms part of a larger body of work.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and short stories too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and today we will be discussing of Shadows, Stars, and Sabers, an anthology edited by Jendia Gammon and Gareth L. Powell.

Lilly:

But before we get into that conversation, we have our quick five minute intro question, starting with, Sarah, what is something great that happened recently?

Sara:

It's raining.

Lilly:

There you go, short and sweet, it's good.

Sara:

It is good.

Lilly:

I donated blood this week. That's my good thing.

Sara:

It's an excellent thing to do.

Lilly:

Yeah, it's A bummer because I react very well to donating blood, like I never get woozy or feel bad afterwards or anything. And my blood is like, the least needed blood type. So it's always kind of like, well, better than nothing, right?

Sara:

It is better than nothing. It's still a good thing to do.

Lilly:

You can have it, I'm not using it. But, there, that's the goopy talk, startin early. There's gonna be a little bit more from this anthology. But what are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

am drinking wine. Box wine.

Lilly:

Delightful. I have bubbly pomegranate juice, which tastes good, but is far too cold. So, if you hear teeth clattering in the background of this recording, my bad.

Sara:

Why are you drinking something cold if it is too cold?

Lilly:

Cause I didn't want to delay the recording by five minutes to wait for tea to steep and then cool down.

Sara:

I suppose that's very considerate of you.

Lilly:

Considering I already pushed it back.

Sara:

It's true.

Lilly:

And have you read anything good lately?

Sara:

I have been continuing to read my collection of essays by Verlin Flieger on various aspects of Tolkien.

Lilly:

Delightful. I have not been reading much except for this anthology, so it's a good thing we're gonna talk about it at length, right now.

Sara:

It is. But before we start talking about the anthology, because this is an anthology of short stories, we're not going to do a spoiler section. It's really hard to have a spoiler section for short stories so we're just not.

Lilly:

I think, for the most part, our conversation will not be around if there is a twist ending for a story, because some of them do we will try not to spoil it, and we will also try not to tell you which ones those are, because that, in and of itself, is kind of a spoiler.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

we're going to be talking about these stories just from a general standpoint, and not a Maybe not get in as deep into the nitty gritty as we might otherwise. So from the introduction, it looks like this is the very first publication from a new indie pub.

Sara:

Yes, it is. So, Gendia Gammon and Gareth Powell have started a new publisher or a new imprint which is, what, Stars and Sabres? Publishing? Yes. Stars and Sabers. And this is their first book that they've put out, but it's not their last. They have a whole lineup that they've announced of some really interesting sounding books.

Lilly:

And at the back of the book, they thank some of their supporters. So it looks like this was also a little bit crowdfunded, which is pretty neat.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

It's cool. I really like seeing all of the different Approaches to publishing I feel like things are getting a little bit more varied.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I think it's interesting. I really hope that their imprint does well just because the world can use more publishers.

Lilly:

Yeah, variety is always a good thing, right?

Sara:

Yes. And I did really enjoy this anthology overall. I would say, as expected, you know, there are some stories that I quite liked and some stories that didn't work for me as well. But that's just really what you get when you have a bunch of different pieces.

Lilly:

And so I assume you loved the story about a lady pulling all of her skin off piece by piece. That just really struck me as a Sarah story.

Sara:

And that story I found very interesting. It was not my favorite, but it also was not my least favorite.

Lilly:

It reminded me, not in the actual story itself, but just kind of in those visuals. These Dark Abodes by Lindsay Manussos?

Sara:

From these Dark Oboes, I believe.

Lilly:

Did I get her name right?

Sara:

You did get her name right.

Lilly:

Hell yeah, I'm counting that. That's a win. So it reminded me a lot of that, just because I remember we had a whole conversation about why it didn't gross you out. Cause it's also people removing skin, but in From These Dark Abodes, they remove all of their skin to become bones. Whereas in this short story, the character is removing her skin to become gooey.

Sara:

I will say that I think that this short story was, yeah, goopier. Um, and, and that made it a little less enjoyable for me.

Lilly:

Not for you.

Sara:

yes, it was still a good story, it just was not a story for me.

Lilly:

I would agree with that though. I, overall, this collection is, what, I think they said speculative fiction? But isn't that just, like, a way of saying science fiction slash fantasy without saying science fiction slash fantasy?

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

cool. Just making sure I understood that marketing speak.

Sara:

Yes. So this is, this is, Like you say, themed around just speculative fiction in general. So it's not a very granular theme. And you get a wide variety of stories. From science fiction, to fantasy, to some horror. It Kind of runs the gamut.

Lilly:

and it did feel like there were a lot of different I use the word variety a lot, and I'm trying to come up with a different There is a huge range of stories happening here. And not just in genre, but also like, There were some stories that played with perspective in a really fun way, some that kind of bounced around with tenses. Stark Holborn has a short story in here, and you know that one fucks around with the timeline. So it was really fun. I actually had a hard time I had to sit down and read this book, right, because we're reading it for the podcast. I think I would have liked it a lot better if I had been reading it one story at a time, and had like, a good gap in between them.

Sara:

Hmm.

Lilly:

I found that a lot of them had similar enough imagery, especially because of the way that they were organized.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean they were kind of grouped thematically a little bit.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

So you had very similar stories together.

Lilly:

And so, going from one story to the next that was similar in that way, but so different in many others, I found myself having to, like, really stop and reorient myself. And I basically, for each story, had to read the first page two or three times before I could be like, okay, I am now in the mindset of this one, and I can keep going. Because I was keeping, like, shit in my head from the previous story, which was just really unhelpful.

Sara:

I don't know if I had that problem. I did like the way that they were thematically grouped. I found that that was helpful for me as a reader. I probably would have benefited from a little additional time between each story. But that's the nature of reading a book a week.

Lilly:

Yeah, yeah.

Sara:

a lot of extra time.

Lilly:

I liked them being grouped that way. It just made me needing a gap very apparent. You know what I mean?

Sara:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Lilly:

Although I will say, there were two stories, like, back to back about religious roars. And that felt like, they could have been in different parts of that section, I think.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna disagree there.

Lilly:

Otherwise, yes, I liked having the sections as they were. I will say at first, in my head, when I saw the first section of The Shadows, I was like, oh, okay, great, the three sections in this book are going to be The shadows, the stars, and the sabers. That was not it.

Sara:

That was, that was not the case but I had that same thought, to be honest.

Lilly:

There's actually five sections of the shadows, to the moon and stars, and earth so strange. By the saber and the spell, and toward the light. And, it felt like there were a lot of bummers. Not in the like, I disliked the story way. But in a, you know, the tone.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, plenty of happy stories too but there, there were some bummers.

Lilly:

Maybe they just stuck out to me more. Maybe that says more about me than the collection.

Sara:

And to be clear, I don't think that calling something a bummer means, that's not us saying it was bad.

Lilly:

Yes, I, I can clarify again. I mean, a lot of these were very, you know, thoughtful and conceptual about ideas that are not super happy. And that's still important to explore. And in fact, I love bummers, so not at all a complaint, just something that I noticed as I was going through. And I think it made, even the ones that have like an ostensibly happy ending is still like, there were still some oofs in there.

Sara:

For, for some of them, I mean, there were also just genuinely happy stories,

Lilly:

were some, yes, yes.

Sara:

I would agree there were a lot of bummers. In that sense. I do wish that there had been more content warnings for the stories. We got content warnings on I Jang's story, which is the final story in the collection, which I really appreciated. But there were some stories, particularly in the beginning that had a lot of pretty dark Content

Lilly:

And goopy.

Sara:

and Goopy, and as I've said, I'm not a horror reader I kind of need to brace myself, and I did not get that opportunity, so I would have liked more content warnings.

Lilly:

Yeah, definitely. I did notice, and this is entirely arbitrary, but I thought it was fun. There were multiple Star Trek references in this collection.

Sara:

There were some Star Trek references, it's true.

Lilly:

Far apart, not in any related way whatsoever, which makes it more interesting.

Sara:

I mean, Star Trek is a cultural phenomenon.

Lilly:

is. And I'm cheating a little bit because one of them was in Alice Street by Paul Cornell, which is formatted as a Wikipedia article about an ostensibly real actress. I have not actually looked it up. I don't think she is a real person. But.

Sara:

I don't think she is, but I did have that question about that article too. Because it's such a real life Wikipedia article.

Lilly:

And all of the media that she is related to in the article is real, or at least a lot of it was. So, that's one of the places where Star Trek appeared, and so that's kind of cheating, because there's just a lot of literal references, like, encyclopedia references to other, like, cultural works. So it's kind of a gimme, but there was, it counts, two Star Trek references.

Sara:

I think that story also had a Doctor Who reference, although I'm not entirely sure.

Lilly:

Nice, because Cornell was a writer, right?

Sara:

Yes, Cornel has written for Doctor Who, specifically.

Lilly:

Well that does, I think, make him count for authors whose work we've read before, although I guess we didn't technically read it. I didn't technically read it,

Sara:

You have, I mean, I've have read Rosebud, which is a novella that he wrote that has nothing to do with Doctor Who.

Lilly:

But if we're counting his Doctor Who episodes, then he counts.

Sara:

We have seen his Doctor Who episodes.

Lilly:

have encountered his work. But it was really fun. Ai Jing, like you mentioned. We interviewed her, oh no, a number of years ago, and time is meaningless, so I have no idea how long ago that was. Was that just last no, two years ago.

Sara:

2023, maybe, yeah?

Lilly:

Yeah. Anyway. Khanh Hoang, a Stark Holborn, who's Factus series I love so much.

Sara:

We've had Peter McLean on to the podcast, although not actually to talk about his books, we talked about whiskey and publishing.

Lilly:

And that's why he wasn't in the list of authors I've read before.

Sara:

It was interesting though

Lilly:

Wait, did I miss anybody?

Sara:

I've read Adrian Tchaikovsky and I might have listened to something by Lisbeth Miles because she's done a lot of work for Big Finish and the Blake Seven and Doctor Who audio adventures.

Lilly:

Neat. I haven't read any Tchaikovsky well, I guess I have now, ha!

Sara:

You have now!

Lilly:

So, the Stark Holborn piece, Last Gasp, I'm actually so torn on, because I loved it. I love all of Holborn's work that we've read, like, so much. Absolutely one of my favorite series that we've done for the podcast, possibly at all, like, all time. But I feel like I would not have engaged with the short story in this collection as well if I hadn't read Tenlo and those books. And that makes me hesitant to say it's one of my favorites in the collection.

Sara:

I agree. I really enjoyed it, but I did feel like I needed some background. I felt like that about another story, too, actually. There were a couple of stories in here that I know for a fact were related to previous works. Other published works by authors. For example The Magic Wood by Jonathan L. Howard. Featured a character from his Johannes the, or Johannes the Necromancer book, I believe. And Hunger and the Lady by Peter McLean was also specifically related to his series. And I believe the Asexual Succubus by John Wisewell was a sequel to a short story or a novella or something that he had published. And some of those, I felt, stood on their own. And others, I felt, probably would have benefited from having more context for the series, like The Last Gasp, and also, to a lesser extent, Hunger and the Lady.

Lilly:

That's interesting because I felt like Hunger and the Lady held up until it got to the end and there was like an end plate about how This was the first time these two characters met and it was so momentous and that kind of threw me out of it.

Sara:

Well, that's kind of what I

Lilly:

Yeah, but I think without that end plate it would have been fine.

Sara:

Right, but without that end point plate, it wouldn't necessarily, you wouldn't know that it was related to another series, which I guess

Lilly:

That's fine.

Sara:

is fine, is good,

Lilly:

means it stands alone. Let it stand on its own two feet. Last Gasp, does it introduce itself as being? No, it does not. See, Last Gasp does not say anything.

Sara:

Yeah, I think that you just kind of pick up by context clues,

Lilly:

Yeah or you're just a little bit lost and you don't know why.

Sara:

possibly. Also, I have to admit that I'm a terrible, terrible person, and I did just read it straight through. I did not actually play the game.

Lilly:

I also did, although I kind of wish, I would go back and like read the last, so it's kind of a choose your own adventure story, would you say?

Sara:

I would say so, yeah.

Lilly:

So there, there's like A paragraph of things that happen, and then you're supposed to flip a coin, and heads or tails tells you, like, which paragraph to read next. And I read it straight through also, and it worked straight through. But I did go back and read, like, the leading in like, couple of sentences before I read the next outcome.

Sara:

I just read it straight through.

Lilly:

I needed to remind myself what was happening. I do wish I had the physical book. Is there a phys there must be a physical version.

Sara:

is, yes.

Lilly:

I think It would have been a better reading experience for that story in particular if I had had the physical book.

Sara:

I think, for me, I just choose your own adventure books or stories. Don't work as a reading experience for me because I'm not gonna flip to the right paragraph or the right page or whatever. Like, that's just too much effort. I need, I need like an app. I need to build myself an app.

Lilly:

I do think ebooks are, like, you can do some really cool stuff with Choose Your Own Adventure because of the multimedia aspect. Or, like, the being able to link back and forth. But I also think Last Gasp worked perfectly well reading it straight through.

Sara:

Yeah, it was fine. I mean, I didn't have any problems with it.

Lilly:

Like, it's not a genuine Choose Your Own Adventure in that way.

Sara:

There, I mean, some of the scenarios do double up if you read them straight through.

Lilly:

I just, if you actually sit down and read a classic choose your own adventure, it doesn't, like, it does not flow at all.

Sara:

That's

Lilly:

Because it, like, it completely is jumping around and you have to go to, like, completely different sections.

Sara:

That's true. This one was more linear.

Lilly:

The Magic Wood, by Jonathan L. Howard, was very fun. It was probably one of my favorites in the collection. Not just because we have read Carnegie, Ghost Hunter,

Sara:

ghost finder.

Lilly:

Ghost Finder, excuse me, he's not hunting, he's finding.

Sara:

He was finding

Lilly:

For our very first spooky month, maybe?

Sara:

It, I think it was. I think that was when we were still doing two books an episode.

Lilly:

ooooh. What a mistake.

Sara:

That was a terrible mistake. Why did we do that?

Lilly:

Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Sara:

I mean, I know what our reasoning was. We were just wrong.

Lilly:

Yes. Anyway. But that was not the only reason why, and not necessary, to enjoy The story, I don't think.

Sara:

No, absolutely. You didn't need to read Karnacki. And I also don't think that you have to read the novel about Kabal either,

Lilly:

I didn't know that there was an accompanying novel. That

Sara:

I don't,

Lilly:

news.

Sara:

yeah, I mean, I don't know which came first. Well, presumably the novel, because I think the novel was published a long time ago, but And I don't know chronologically where they stand. I've never read the novel. I think I own it, but have never gotten around to reading it.

Lilly:

well I loved The Magic Wood. I thought the tone was great, the characters were good, information was introduced to us with, like, good pacing, which is really hard to do in a short story.

Sara:

Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And it did, it was one of the stories that made me think, okay, I want to go and find out what else he has written. You know, what else can I read by him?

Lilly:

Yes, there were a couple of stories that I was like, I'm marking this down, I want to read more by this author. Including Unremarkable by Alice James, which was not necessarily my favorite story in and of itself, but it made me really want to read more of James work.

Sara:

Which is excellent, because Alice James has written an excellent, excellent series which is basically Sookie Stackhouse, but British.

Lilly:

fuck! That's Alice James?

Sara:

That's Alice James!

Lilly:

Oh my god! Okay!

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

telling me about that series for so long! I did not realize I was the same author. Okay.

Sara:

it's the same author! I was, actually, I had no idea that she had contributed to this anthology. Or, she probably posted about it and I just had forgotten. And so when I saw her name, I was like, YES!

Lilly:

Well, it got me. It reeled me in.

Sara:

Well, I do have a series for you.

Lilly:

Excellent. I think, possibly, my hands down favorite, though, of the whole collection was Grey by Wren Hutchings.

Sara:

I don't know if I would say my hands down favorite was Grey, because I really, really liked Holy Fools by Adrian Tchaikovsky. But, Grey by Wren Hutchings was excellent.

Lilly:

Holy Fools was incredible. I mean, the religious war as a theme is just not going to be my thang.

Sara:

True. I just, I really liked the ending of Holy Fools.

Lilly:

It was incredible. I really liked the short story. I do, I do want to read more Tchaikovsky, slash any. That's been on the list for a while and we should do something in the podcast so that I actually have a chance to read it.

Sara:

We really should.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

I keep saying that we're gonna add Tchaikovsky to the podcast calendar and just, we never do.

Lilly:

eventually,

Sara:

This year. We'll make it happen this year.

Lilly:

yes. And Holy Fools was less of a bummer than some of the other stories.

Sara:

Still a bummer. I would definitely count Holy Fools as a bummer. I mean it wasn't gory and violent. Bummer.

Lilly:

No, but that's not what a bummer is. A bummer is just,

Sara:

what a bummer is.

Lilly:

is a little bit of a bummer. That's all.

Sara:

But I would, I would count this as a bummer.

Lilly:

Whereas Grey by Wren Hutchings was not. I mean, it's contemplative and subdued, but I wouldn't say that it's a bummer.

Sara:

No. It did leave me wanting more, but that doesn't make it a bummer.

Lilly:

Oh my god. The perspective switch is so

Sara:

so good. That was so good. I, like, I wasn't surprised, necessarily, but I wasn't expecting it to happen like that. Because I do feel like Hutchings leaves you hints in the story leading up to the perspective change. But just the way that it was done was excellent.

Lilly:

Oh, so good. And up until that point, the story really focused on, like, mundane everyday life on a, like, colony ship, basically. Not a ship. They're in orbit, currently terraforming the planet, I think.

Sara:

Satellite.

Lilly:

Satellite, thank you. S science word. And I love that kind of close, mundane. And not, I mean, not mundane. Do you know what I mean, though? For the character, it was shitty everyday life.

Sara:

Yeah. And this was definitely shitty everyday

Lilly:

yeah, he was having a terrible birthday! Poor guy! But I I love that kind of thing. Looking at the otherworldly and spectacular, like, What does that look like for a regular person? that part was just also done really, really, really well.

Sara:

It was just a good

Lilly:

It was really good. It was my favorite. I loved Last Gasp so much, but the fact that I think it's not as accessible is why it doesn't quite get my number one slot.

Sara:

That's fair. Yeah, I still think that I would put Holy Fools above Grey if I, like, was held at gunpoint and had to pick my favorites but they're, they're quite close. I also did really like An Asexual Succubus by John Wisewell, just because I love the premise. It's such a good premise.

Lilly:

it's right there on the tin. It was a really cute story and I, I really liked learning about how Lily, the main character, which, she spells her name differently, so I wasn't mad she, like, feeds off of just joy, like, I don't want to say more, so I don't want to, it's not really a spoiler. She's Ace. She's a succubus. What else you

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's right there on the tin.

Lilly:

Yeah. The descriptions of that were extremely sweet. And you're right, this was definitely one of the stories that was in no way a bummer whatsoever.

Sara:

This was not a bummer at all, except maybe in the fact that her Parents didn't understand that she was ace, and they wanted her to take over the family business, but that's really not a main aspect of this story.

Lilly:

and like, I wouldn't call it cozy because of that, but that doesn't make it a bummer.

Sara:

No.

Lilly:

it realistic.

Sara:

Yeah. But it was so cute. I loved it.

Lilly:

I think this is really petty of me, but I think the title is a block for me to love it. It's just, it's too straightforward. I'm sorry. Even if it was just, like, Lily's Day at the Pet Shop or something, I would be, I think, a little more into it. I'm

Sara:

I'm sorry, I cannot take that seriously.

Lilly:

not wrong, though. No.

Sara:

you, you are wrong. You are.

Lilly:

so, so on the nose. A little cheesy.

Sara:

I don't think so. I think it's fine. I mean, could you have a different title? Sure. But is this title going to detract from the story?

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

No. That's just you. That's all

Lilly:

That is not just me. No, no,

Sara:

is just you. It is just you. Yes.

Lilly:

Titles absolutely affect how people read stories. I

Sara:

think that this one, like, warrants that. Or not that level.

Lilly:

said it maybe not able to call it my favorite. I didn't say it made it a bad story.

Sara:

Yeah, but I think, I think that's too extreme.

Lilly:

Well, okay. We can agree to disagree there. It was sweet. I liked it.

Sara:

It is a good story, regardless of your opinions on the title. I also really liked, I also really liked The Companionship of Lighthouses by Elizabeth Miles, which was very atmospheric.

Lilly:

That one was very atmospheric. And also very touching. But like, our characters have to fight to get there.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

It was, I

Sara:

a bummer, but not a happy story.

Lilly:

Oh, I thought I had it. Well, I won't say I thought it had a happy ending, but you know, the argument could maybe be made about some of the stories in this collection that will remain unnamed. Oh,

Sara:

I don't think it had a sad ending, but I don't think it had a happy ending.

Lilly:

I do.

Sara:

They're gonna separate at some point.

Lilly:

That's okay.

Sara:

Not a happy ending.

Lilly:

I don't think a relationship has to be permanent for it to be good.

Sara:

I'm not saying it wasn't good. I'm just saying I don't think it was a happy ending.

Lilly:

was lonely, now she's not. That's fine.

Sara:

And he's gonna leave her one day and she's gonna be lonely again.

Lilly:

Eh.

Sara:

But it was a lovely story. Even though there was a lot of action at points, it felt very quiet.

Lilly:

It did. And I, okay, if we're getting into it, I did not interpret the ending as he was planning on leaving her. I thought that was him saying, yes, I'll stay with you.

Sara:

I didn't think it was him saying, yes, he would stay.

Lilly:

Well, ambiguous.

Sara:

it was him saying, I'm not gonna push you to come with me.

Lilly:

Hmm. Yeah, I know. That's not how I read it.

Sara:

Interesting.

Lilly:

Yeah. Maybe I was just so ready for something happy.

Sara:

Maybe I was so primed by previous stories that I was expecting something on the satyr scale.

Lilly:

Well, It has a good title, so this one's a good one. And that's what I have to say about that.

Sara:

That is not the definition of a good story. But it does have a good title.

Lilly:

Hehe. I think this as a collection was so kind of perfect for us in particular because the works were like the perfect balance of familiar authors and new authors. I had like a really nice reading experience. running into people whose work I was familiar with and kind of knew what to expect from it, and also being introduced to entirely new authors at the same time. It was like a really lovely balance of having my cake and eating it too, a. k. a. more Stark Holborn stories. And Getting ready to Google Wren Hutchings after the recording and find out everything they've ever written.

Sara:

I agree, I, I did really like the mix of authors and it was fun to discover new authors as well as discover works by authors that I'd heard of but hadn't, like, gotten around to reading yet. Like. Jonathan L Howard. So it was, it was a really good mix of stories. And I think a good balance of fantasy versus science, fiction versus horror versus bummer versus not. Bummer.

Lilly:

I would agree with that, too. We had some stories set very similar to our world, some set as far from our world as you can get. And it was fun. It was a really nice, like, sampling. Of speculative fiction. I'll use the word.

Sara:

Yeah, it's a, it's a good anthology.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

come disagree with us. We're on Blue Sky and Instagram at Fiction Fans Pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod@gmail.com or leave a comment on our YouTube video.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara:

Bye!