Fiction Fans

Author Interview: The Ruptured Sky by Jessica A. McMinn

• Episode 175

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Your hosts speak with Jessica A. McMinn about The Ruptured Sky, the first novel in her debut fantasy quartet. They talk about worldbuilding, asshole mentors, duty, and consequences.

Find more from Jessica:

https://jessicaamcminn.com/ 

https://bsky.app/profile/jessicaamcminn.bsky.social


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License



Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I'm so delighted to welcome Jessica A. McMinn onto the podcast today to talk about her novel The Ruptured Sky.

Jessica:

Hi, everyone. for having me, Sarah and Lily. It's very exciting to be here.

Sara:

Thank you for coming on, especially because I know the time zone shenanigans between us and you makes recording not fun or easy to schedule.

Jessica:

it's been, I've had worse. I've had worse. So this is actually not too bad.

Lilly:

good to hear it. Well, quick, roughly five minute intro before we get started on the book conversation. What's something great that happened recently? I usually pick on Sarah because she ought to know the question is coming.

Sara:

Yes I, I should ought to know the question is coming and I always forget to prepare an answer for this. But in this case, I do have an answer. Technically, I used it on another episode, but that was Patreon exclusive. So I feel like I can use it again. I. visited Lily over the weekend. I went to Seattle and we had lots of fun. So that's my good thing.

Lilly:

It was very good.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Well then, Roofing off of that, my good thing will be that we got oysters while you were here. My good thing is not that I saw you. Like, we got oysters.

Sara:

I mean, that's fair. Really, my good thing is that I saw your cats.

Lilly:

Mhm. And Jessica, how about you?

Jessica:

My good thing is it's not really an achievement kind of thing, but my my son finished at preschool on Friday. So he's off to start kindergarten. So I guess elementary school on the sixth. So that's been big little milestone there. So that was a nice little event we've had happening. I'm always growing up.

Lilly:

Congratulations! Or I guess, please pass my congratulations along.

Jessica:

I will.

Lilly:

thank you.

Jessica:

Well, I could stop speaking so much, he graduated, instead of just kicking him out because he's starting school in two weeks, but you know. A

Lilly:

What is everyone drinking tonight? Or, for me it's tonight. There's a

Sara:

I am drinking red wine. I felt that that was appropriate to the world of The Ruptured Sky. they drink wine in it. So, I am drinking wine.

Jessica:

lot of wine.

Lilly:

servant is like, oh, do you want beer, wine, or ale or something? And he was like, always wine.

Jessica:

I would have had wine, but it is one o'clock in the afternoon for me, so I have a caramel latte so it's just to get me through the afternoon.

Lilly:

delicious though.

Sara:

Coffee is good.

Jessica:

Coffee's always good.

Lilly:

I am also drinking red wine in honor of Keo. This is a book podcast where we talk about books. And other than The Ruptured Sky, which we are about to talk about at length, has anyone read anything good lately?

Sara:

I am still reading Tolkien's letters. I am six percent. I think, I don't know actually what letter I'm on. It's like late twenties. Twenty six. I have read twenty six of Tolkien's letters.

Lilly:

Does it give you, like What, how people responded? Is there any context at all, or is it just him going, I had a sandwich for lunch today.

Sara:

So there is, we don't see the response, but there is sometimes like an editor's note about why he was writing this letter and who the recipient was. But it would, be interesting to see, like, the dialogue, but we don't get

Lilly:

how about you?

Jessica:

I actually I just finished reading the last book of Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb. So I'm like still in mourning

Sara:

that.

Jessica:

from having finished that. And also I just want to like start over again, but it's like 15 books. And I'm a slow reader, so it's a mammoth undertaking, but yeah, wow, that blew me away.

Sara:

I've, I've heard that it's very good, but I've also been too intimidated by how tragic people say it is. Yeah.

Jessica:

Yeah, it's pretty dense, but I guess like, cause it is broken up into the three, or sorry, five trilogies and the one quartet kind of thing, it's got like good pause points, so you can like, just, you know, read a couple and then step away from it and then come back and load up on trauma again and then go back and reset. So which is what I did, I've been reading them over a couple of years just sort of a series at a time. Otherwise, yeah, I'm pretty sure you would destroy your soul.

Sara:

That's kind of the impression that I got.

Jessica:

They're really cool.

Lilly:

I am still working my way through Misery by Stephen King. I don't like it more now than I did before.

Jessica:

That's quite a miserable time then.

Lilly:

Yes, exactly. I've, I've realized what the problem is. Is that Stephen King, because I have never liked Any of his books. I've read several. I keep trying. He's very good at making me hate characters that I can tell I'm supposed to hate. He is not very good at making me like characters. Even when he is trying his damnedest. And that is a Not a fun reading experience for me.

Jessica:

Yeah. I've only read the first book of The Dark Tower and I just could not really care about any of the characters.

Lilly:

No.

Jessica:

Like interesting story. I was like, I enjoyed it enough, but yeah, the emotional connection definitely didn't hit home.

Lilly:

Yeah, same.

Sara:

I think that's where I fell with that book too, which is the only Stephen King that I've read.

Lilly:

Like, his plots are interesting, but I just can't. Just don't. No. No! Anyway. He'll probably get another chance, cause he's such a, like, cornerstone author, then I'll just waste more of my time.

Jessica:

So many options too. I mean, how many books did you have?

Sara:

But talking about books with characters we did care about,

Lilly:

Yes, good transition.

Sara:

yes. We, like we mentioned, we are here to discuss the ruptured sky. We found in the course of doing this podcast that genre definitions are very personal. They Very, quite broadly, from person to person, would you tell our listeners what genre you feel The Ruptured Sky is and why?

Jessica:

I think it's sort of a. Like an epic dark fantasy. So we've got enough elements of, you know, your traditional epic sort of high fantasy world building and that adventure, like a lot of those classic tropes, but we get like, no, one's really good. Like there's no like noble, bright character. Like they're all a bit dark and self serving really. So they're sort of different and it's quite violent. Not pleasant for some people. So, yeah, it's definitely got those dark elements, which, you know, some people classify that as being like on the grimdark end, but I don't think I quite fall that far on it. But yeah, I think it's definitely got the epic, epic dark fantasy.

Lilly:

Okay, I was kind of shocked when I saw some of the reviews describing it as grimdark, because to me, my weird personal definition of that genre is Like a sense of hopelessness? It's grimdark. Like there's no way that good things could happen. And granted, we've only read the first book in, I believe it's a quartet? Or will be?

Jessica:

Quote, yeah.

Lilly:

So there is still space for things to go very wrong, but I am still, at this point, feeling hopeful for our characters. Like, it's possible. They could do it. Like, I wouldn't call that grimdark.

Jessica:

I think when I early sort of pitched it to like readers, I did go hard on the grimdark because everyone's like, right, you've got morally gray characters. It's a bleak, it's a hard world. So yeah, it's that, that element of hope that it seems to be like a debated area of where Grimdark falls. It's just one of those hard to define genres. Like, I've seen stuff that they're like, oh yeah, that's Grimdark. I've seen people say Lord of the Rings is Grimdark.

Sara:

Interesting.

Jessica:

So it's just, yeah, they're very, depends on, yeah, what specific points of grimdark definition that people draw on, but definitely dark.

Lilly:

Yeah. And so as you're embarking on a journey of writing this fairly dark series and you just read Robin Hobb, are you generally a reader of dark, darker fantasy?

Jessica:

I think so. So, I've actually really only sort of deep dive into reading probably only the last sort of five or six years. Like I've always read. But actively purposely read specific things rather than just like, I feel like I'm going to read a book. I think cause as you go through like school and, and uni and everything, you're just like, Oh, I'm reading it's homework. So even though I liked doing it, I just, it was never something I did because it was too much in the role of study. So, I definitely have always liked dark things. So I played like a lot of video games and manga and anime, and I generally liked the more dark sort of. violent ones. So that's definitely, definitely sort of elements that I'm drawn to in both books and other media that I consume. So, look, I read the occasional, like, very occasional, like, rom com. You know, you just have to have a palate cleanse every now and again, but you know, it's pretty much all dark and twisty. The more I can just throw my emotions, the better.

Sara:

I am someone who typically does not gravitate toward the darker end of the fantasy spectrum. I like my happy ending. I don't necessarily want my heart ripped out all the time. What draws you to the grittier stuff?

Jessica:

I think it's probably because If we're, like, gonna do, like, alignment stuff for people, I'm probably very much, like, that lawful good person. So, to me, I'm drawn to it just because it's so different to, the experience I know as life of being, the by the book kind of person. So, yeah, I always really like characters that just, you know, don't give a shit. They do stuff because they want to, not because they're thinking about everyone else's. I'm feeling for what they should be, what they're expected to do kind of stuff. So yeah, I kind of fly that's sort of one reason why I gravitate to it. And yeah, I don't know. I don't know why else I like the, I just really like the emotional investment, but I do like happy endings. Like I don't think I could. read a book that just ended like completely shit, like everyone died kind of thing. Like, I think you do have to have some sort of positive ending to it rather than just bleatness. But it's quite fun to go through the ringer.

Sara:

You want to rip your heart out.

Jessica:

Yeah. It's how you know you're alive.

Lilly:

It is still escapism in a way, just sort of that, just a different flavor of it.

Sara:

Oh

Jessica:

Well, yeah, like I couldn't read like a modern, you know, sort of like wartime. Contemporary kind of thing. Like, I couldn't do anything like that. I don't, I don't really like contemporary stories unless they are like a rom com kind of thing. Like, they're specifically light and just brain candy. But yeah, I think with fantasy, because you do. You're getting that escapism like straight off the bat, you can handle so many hard, difficult things that you couldn't handle in a contemporary setting just because it is so far removed.

Lilly:

Absolutely, yeah.

Sara:

So this book is told from. four different perspectives. We have Kiyo, Amika, Rei, and Kriya. Can you tell us a little bit about your decision to include multiple POV characters?

Jessica:

So it's actually quite like a, a weird one. So I've, I've been writing, like I was writing this story for like 20 years, like literally most of my life. And I'd always only ever told it from Amica's perspective. So it was just a single point of view. And it only occurred to me like probably in about 2014 or 15, when I picked up a song of ice and fire that you can actually. do that. Like it never occurred to me that I could use different perspectives rather than just the main character as such. So, that was when it sort of really branched out. I'm like, look, I think the other characters have a lot more to tell and add to the story, which is where I really started to bring in the extra perspectives. So Crea was the last one to be added. I sort of added his and then took it out because he was just with the party so often. Like, does he really give that much extra to the story? And then I ended up sort of bringing him in later. So he was sort of a, he was a difficult character to write because I guess I hadn't spent as much time in his headspace as I had the other three.

Sara:

I, I do think, I mean, I enjoyed reading all of the different perspectives and I do think that it added like a depth to the narrative and what they were going through to see what each character was thinking. At different points in the novel. So, I'm, I'm glad you added them in, basically.

Jessica:

Me too.

Lilly:

Oh, I actually think Crea was my favorite of the perspectives, but I'm biased because I liked his mother's plotline so much. And so I was just like, Kriya, you're fine. Talk about your mom.

Jessica:

You're in a little minority creed, the one that everyone's all like, oh, Kriya.

Sara:

was great. I, I think he was probably my favorite, too.

Jessica:

Excellent. See, like, I mean, every, every character's not going to resonate with everyone, which I guess is also another, like, benefit of the multiple perspectives is you do get the ones that are going to gravitate to different stories within the one narrative more than others.

Lilly:

absolutely. It makes me think we should make a, one of the old school Quizzilla quizzes. Which point of view character are you?

Jessica:

Missed those. Oh my God. Yes.

Lilly:

So you mentioned that you've been working on this story for quite a while. I think you just said 20 years?

Jessica:

I first came up with the idea It's very different than what it was, but I guess I first came up with the character of Amica when I was about 13 or 14.

Lilly:

How much, I mean, How much did you plan this plot then? Was it you had the plot and then have sort of been adjusting it since then?

Jessica:

Like, not at all. I don't plan. So I'm working on book three at the moment and I'm sort of, because now I'm working on it, I'm starting to get what's happening in the book. But book four is just like blank at the moment. I don't make things easy for myself in that, but I guess I always had the character of Amica was like a princess that didn't want to be a princess. and, you know, ran off to do her own sort of thing. And she had magic powers. And that, that's probably one thing that's really stayed the same. And it was always like that magic quest, the magic object to find the magic quest. I think at the time I was reading David Edding's Point of Prophecy, Belgariad. So I think that sort of was like the real quintessential magical object, save the world kind of story. So, that's how it sort of, how it sort of started. And then, yeah, it really just snowballed and changed quite a lot.

Sara:

I do want to ask about some of those changes, but we'll save that for the spoiler question because I feel like that is going to be a spoiler conversation. But the world that the story takes place in is quite expansive, like you've clearly put a lot of thought into it. What was your world building process like?

Jessica:

I don't actively sit down and do stuff, like, that's so, like, when everyone's like, oh, the world building's amazing, I'm like, oh, is it? Like, I just slap some ideas together, whereas, like, people, like, other writers I've spoken to, they've got, like, spreadsheets and all of these things about where they've drawn all the inspiration from and real in depth like history and lore and everything that they've kept on the side, like a big appendix and everything. But, but yeah, I try to do that because I'm like, yeah, I want it to be really vivid and lifelike and everything, but I sit down to do it and I'm just like, oh, it feels like homework. So I just, I pick up bits of ideas, like, I've tried to obviously culturally appropriate things, but try to give that sort of like diversity in the world. So, for example, Castile is, is Asian coded area. And so like, I lived in Japan for five years, so that's sort of like built up sort of. leave cultural experience from that. And just sort of, yeah, just observing bits and pieces that I, like I never set out to world build as such. Like I just sort of, guess, go through life and then be like, Oh, that's cool. And pop it in.

Sara:

It happens organically.

Jessica:

It does. Yeah. So, I, I didn't have a, a sort of a process to sit down and, and say, right, I'm going to map out a pantheon or I'm going to say like, put all my, this is the history of this kingdom and, and things like that. So just as I needed to know what I thought about it kind of thing as I was writing.

Lilly:

I think that sort of answered my next question, but I'm going to pose it anyway because it was a good question. Because this is a longer series, you fleshed out world than a standalone book. And so It sounds like the answer to how you avoid front loading that information is just including it as it's necessary and not going, I had this idea so you have to know it right now. So,

Jessica:

beta work with one of my friends from uni he was actually very good at identifying something like, hey, this is great information, but we don't need to know that now, because, we are in, in certain characters headspaces, like, they're not suddenly going to start giving you a history of a place that they've lived in all the time, kind of thing, like, so he was very helpful in being able to say. Right, I can see why you're putting that here, because you've obviously just thought about it, but the character wouldn't be thinking about it. I guess because you do think that there's so much world building that people do and, but, you know, only like 2 percent of it ends up in the book. It's like with research where you do pages and pages and pages of research and you're only going to use like a sentence of it because you don't want it to feel like a history retelling or anything like that. So, that's sort of, yeah, just as it needed to be known, but not necessarily as like, as depending on what the character. needed as well. Like, if it's a familiar setting, yeah, the character's not going to pay too much attention to it. So I'm not going to describe it.

Sara:

You have two prequel novellas. for the series, I believe. When do you think a reader should check those out? Like, should they read it before book one? Should they read the series? What's available before checking out the prequel novellas? What's, what's your opinion?

Jessica:

I wrote them both after I wrote The Ruptured Sky, as we often do. like, I would definitely read the second novella, The Call of the Huntress, before reading book two. So there is a character in that that comes back in the second book, so I think that would be a good place to read it. But I think they could both easily be read before, starting book one. But it's kind of like with anything with a prequel, like, you get something out of it depending on where you read it. Like, if you read it first, then you're getting more out of the novel because you've got background information. But when you go back and read the prequel, like, you can think, oh, I like fine stuff that makes. More sense. So like there's quite a big thing in the other novella, The Collector's Lost Things, that is directly related to stuff that has happened prior to The Ruptured Sky. So. Yeah, either way you read that, I think you would still be able to get a like, ah, moment.

Sara:

Well, I, I ask because it reminds me a little bit about my experience reading The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan, which has the prequel novel and I read that about halfway through the series And I think that was the wrong point to read it. And I don't think that you should start with that prequel novel. So whenever I see a prequel novella, I'm like, Oh, when, when should I be reading this?

Jessica:

I think they could, like, yeah, I really think that in this case they could be read as an entry point to it, and then it's like, oh yeah, I'm interested, I'll read the book that I have to pay for because the novellas are free and then or you can just say, yeah, no, I don't care. But then it's also like, okay, I want to know more about how this character got here because the novellas were published before I published The Ruptured Sky. I was able to make sure there were consistencies or easter eggs and things in them as well. So, yeah, I think, they can be read at either point. One way to answer that.

Lilly:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this, there are currently two published novels in this series plus the two novellas. do you have a sense of any ideas that you learned from writing this book that you brought to writing book two? Ha

Jessica:

Um, don't take 20 years to do it. So with one. So I guess, yeah, it was to really, so writing book one, it was like, I'd usually get to about, say 60,000 words in and be like, shit, I'm gonna scrap it and then start again. So I think I restarted the novel probably about five or six times from scratch. The first one. And I'm like, I can't keep doing that. I can't release a book every 20 years. So I really had to just get on with, I need to write and not go back and read. Like, I just need to write and get through it. And that saw book two get done in 12 months. But what I learned from that is don't do that because that, that's just asking for burnout. Like I think I tried too radically to overhaul my writing process between the two books and yeah, look, that book two just killed me because it was released 12 months after book one. So, yeah, it was a huge learning curve of what not to do.

Sara:

Sounds like there's a middle ground.

Lilly:

Oh, how different would that book have been, finished 20 years ago, though?

Jessica:

it would have been so bad. It would have been so bad because I was, you know, 13 and I'd just watched Lord of the Rings and I was like, whoa, so, yeah, it would have been terrible. And I do actually have old drafts lying around somewhere and I'm like, oh my God, the cringe. It was called The Blade of Shadows and it was a

Lilly:

Well, I think we are about ready to get into the spoiler section. goodie. But, before we get over there, I have a question for Sarah. Which is, who should read this book?

Sara:

You should read this book if you're in the mood for a dark, but not grim dark pessimistic fantasy where bad shit happens to people who are trying their best.

Jessica:

That is such a good summary. The new tad line. Bad shit happens to people who are trying their best.

Sara:

Yes, they don't always Do great things, but they're trying.

Jessica:

I'm not

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. And my first question, because I am now dying to know you've talked about how this book went through some pretty drastic changes because you initially came up with it when you were much younger. So what exactly changed? Like how, how different is it? from the idea that you first conceived when you were 13.

Jessica:

wow. So, originally Kriya and Amika was like a love story and I panned that so I went through a phase and I still kind of am kind of regretting it now given what the current market trends are with romanticy, but I didn't want to have a female character whose sole purpose was to like save her lover or find her lover or just everything about a man. Didn't want that. So I was that sort of came off the back of, star Wars, the prequels, where, like, Padme was really cool and, like, awesome, sort of, political figure, and then she, like, died of a broken heart, like, sort of, bullshit is that. So, I totally scrapped all notion of having it. I was gonna just have, like, super, super slow burn, and then I'm like, that doesn't even feel right for her, and that's when I realized that Amika was actually asexual, and she just is. I, I, yeah, she doesn't, it's not a priority for her she doesn't feel that, like, she cares about Crea, but not sort of, like, in a way that she really feels that she should, like, is expected to. So yeah, she's got that sort of complicated relationship with that, which she will explore in the later book. So that was a big change. Keo was also straight, originally and people laughed about that one too, because of what he gets up to in the

Sara:

straight in the published

Jessica:

No! He's really not. and Rey also had like an enemies to lovers romance arc with, so Kreia had a little sister, so they had like a roman enemies to lovers romance arc, so that changed. Yeah, they were probably the real big ones, like on a character level, but yeah, plot wise like it, probably one thing that did stay the same was like the two realms, like the, the realm adjacent, there was like a. It was a shadow realm originally, cause I was, you know, 12 and sort of like, yeah, develop that as like the antithesis of the current world. And so I like fletched that, that sort of, I guess the mythology underwent a fair bit of overhaul throughout the, the time. But yeah, that's probably the main things that changed were the characters and their motivations and interests.

Lilly:

Oh, I am a sucker for romance, so I do kind of miss the book we never got. Where there was more of a romance plotline, but

Jessica:

Lots of fighting.

Lilly:

not every book can be romance. You gotta have

Jessica:

No.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I am so happy that Amika is ace. Like, so I'm, I'm glad that that was the change.

Jessica:

Yeah, and I've, I've heard that from a couple of other readers as well. Like there's just like, this is so, good. And I've got one that gives me some sort of sensitivity. Feedback as well as sort of how I've handled it, especially in book two, where she really starts to unpack how she feels. So, yeah, I'm, look, I'm glad I made that change. It felt right for her, but also lamenting what could have been.

Lilly:

For marketing.

Jessica:

what the market is like at the moment, but

Sara:

So was there ever a version where Kiyo and Amika's mother and Tai, Kiyo's servant don't die? Cause I was heartbroken. When they die off screen. I was

Jessica:

yeah, so both of those only happened in the last. Like the last draft. were like the sort of final things that came in. So, yeah well, originally, like, Tyler's didn't exist. So Keo's storyline went through a lot of overhaul as well. So, when he ended up being gay and not, and was like pining for Ray the whole time, he was like fella, but like, he just sat around and moaned and one of my beta readers was like, he doesn't do anything. His storyline needs more action. And I'm like, action, you say? So my brain just went, right, well, he needs to have sex, a lot of it. And that sort of a big change that underwent for him. And that was when I also brought in his little servant that sort of, you know, went along with him on his. escapades, so to speak. So yeah, Tylos was actually a new character and yeah, one of my early babies. Like, yeah, he should, like, die really impactfully.

Sara:

He should, he should live. He should live and not break my heart.

Jessica:

Yeah, and same with the mother, like, I only just, that was all for the last, last draft edition to really yes, push things over the edge for Dear Kiyo, so.

Lilly:

Yeah, I, Amika's moment that she has to reflect when she first finds out that her mother has been brutally murdered was just so, like, I had to, I had to stop for a second and like process that. There was a lot going on there. And she had just, Especially with Amika trying to balance, like, there's this prophecy that she's supposed to fulfill, but she also has duties, you know, on a more governmental level. She goes through the ringer in this book.

Jessica:

Yeah. And like, I guess in that point, like, she really starts to realize that, you know, you can't just do what's right for you. Like, that's just not how life works. So, and she's, yeah, starting to see the, I guess, the consequences of what, what was essentially a selfish move, like, which I'm sure we all probably would have made in her situation, given who she was supposed to be. But. It's sort of like, well, you know, everything does have a consequence, and this one had quite a big one. And just sort of, yeah, gives her weight, more weight on the, well, can I really say no to this prophecy thing? What's going to happen if I don't do it thing, as I didn't do the last thing I was supposed to. And look how that turned out.

Sara:

So, Lily and I had some off screen debate over who the main characters of this novel were. And, I think we, we ultimately split up landed on Amika and Kiyo for the reasons why you've just expressed, like their motivations in the beginning change pretty drastically over the, by the end, over the course of the book, where they realized that they can't just take the selfish option, which they have been doing. Would you. Say that they're the focus of the series as a whole. laughs laughs laughs

Jessica:

is probably, like, yeah, in book one, but he does have a bigger role in book two, because he is sort of off on his own, so he's got more things that he has to sort of navigate through them. But yeah, I guess looking at it that way, he does have quite a big role to play. in the first book, but I think it does sort of, it, it will probably backseat a little bit moving forward because he's not part of it as such. He's just along for the ride

Lilly:

He's had his

Jessica:

shit that's happening around him. He's still there, he's still relevant, he still has agency, but he's not, yeah, he's not, he's not involved in the prophecy, so to speak. So he's just there,

Lilly:

Something

Jessica:

like to torment him. So he's,

Lilly:

Something that I really liked was, you know, during this whole conversation about them just kind of growing up and realizing that actions have consequences and you can't always be selfish, was how even handed their quote unquote selfish actions were. I mean, we, we as the readers obviously see horrible consequences of what they've done, but If you think of it from a fantasy novel perspective, like, the young woman running away from an awful marriage is almost always the hero choice.

Jessica:

yeah.

Lilly:

And so seeing that other side of, like, it's not an unreasonable thing to do, it does still suck in the long run. That's very

Jessica:

I think it's like looking at the whole, like, I mean, being selfish has always been labeled like a terrible thing

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Jessica:

it's also kind of like, it's important. You need to be selfish sometimes, like, sure there might be consequences, but what are the consequences going to be if you didn't take the selfish action kind of thing? So, like, yeah, what would Amica's like if she didn't run away? And then what, what would have happened? With everything, would it have been worse? Would it have been better? Like, you don't know. It's just that sort of choice that you had to make in the moment. And I think, yeah, the, the selfish choice is always very stigmatized. Which is not always fair. I mean, sometimes it is. Absolutely. I. Like, to think that I'm not an overly selfish person, but maybe I am, which is why I'm defending it so staunchly. But also, like, yeah, I just, I don't know.

Lilly:

Well, we compare that to Kria, who is sort of an aggressively unselfish character, especially at the beginning, and that's not really better. He has to put up with his grandfather, who was Miserable.

Jessica:

Yeah, so, like, I guess we, yeah, we see the other end of the story, it's just like, I don't do anything for myself and it's a disaster, and then he starts doing stuff for himself and it gets even more disastrous, so, it's just, yeah, poor Kreer, he can't win.

Lilly:

Yeah. Oh, I really wanted to hit Grey the entire book. I was so glad when Amika stood up to him.

Jessica:

Yeah, I didn't want to have, like, the stereotypical you know, gentle old man mentor kind of thing, like, it's like, well, what if he's just an arsehole? Like an narcissistic, self driven arsehole and really kind of just fucks them over by not telling them the whole situation and, so he's sort of whole thing and like, I guess a running theme of the whole story is really that embodiment of like, when does the end justify the means? And that's pretty much like who Grey is. Like he's very much like. it doesn't matter what happens, I need to get this outcome. So, yeah, I think that sort of does play in a lot of the storylines, is when is it justified?

Sara:

I mean, for, for all that he was an asshole and I hated him and was really glad to see Amika stand up to him. He was still really compelling to read about because, like, I, I mean, he, he does have a point about this prophecy, like, he's not making that up

Lilly:

What is that meme? Why are you booing me? I'm right! That was Grey I felt

Sara:

Yeah, basically, basically, like, can you talk a little bit about keeping, His character compelling to read about, while he's so antagonistic to the heroes, but he's not necessarily a villain, like, it's, he's, he's in this very morally gray kind of area. And that's, I didn't intend that to be a pun, but I guess that is kind of a pun. I'm sorry.

Jessica:

I needed to balance it, like he needed to be likable enough because obviously the characters needed to be invested in what he was saying. So he had to, he had to have some element of, yeah, likability about him or believability in what he was doing. But yeah, I just didn't want him to be, like, a cut and dry mentor kind of character, so looking at ways that would, would undercut that by making him sort of, like, a real abusive parental figure for Crea and just really not give a fuck about anything that wasn't his goal on there. So great. he's doing the right thing. Like he's doing the noble thing. Like stopping the world getting usurped by a pretender god, he's just going about it really badly.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Jessica:

Yeah. It's again, bad things happen to people who are trying their best. But yeah, he knows what they need to do, and I think, and the characters around that understand that like, yes, this is probably the right thing to do, but like, holy shit, did you stuff this up

Lilly:

Especially when

Jessica:

go?

Lilly:

Kaela, his daughter and Kreia's mother, who, as I mentioned in the beginning, is probably my favorite. I loved her so much. The hell that woman went through.

Jessica:

Oh yeah.

Lilly:

Which one of the prequel novellas is about her, and if neither, when is that coming?

Jessica:

Good point. Look, I had never actually thought about giving her a full backstory.

Lilly:

It might just be a short story, it might not be a whole novella, but I just like everything about her, and this is probably also the romantic in me coming out.

Jessica:

He had the love story and it fell apart. Very tragic. Yeah. So,

Sara:

She lands, she lands back on her feet. I mean, I think it really would be a really interesting story to tell.

Jessica:

She gets up and, well, she sort of, you know, tried to give him the final fuck you back at him. And the thing is, he was so driven by one purpose and she took that away. To to get back at him. So yeah, I guess, I think I have undervalued her as a writer even and sort of sat down and thought, you know, what has she actually been through?

Lilly:

Or maybe

Jessica:

does make it, she does come back. She, she will appear later.

Lilly:

a rebound. I'm holding, I'm

Jessica:

Rebound again.

Lilly:

Yeah, she deserves a rebound. So, while you were in the process of writing this novel, were there any Moments or scenes that surprised you.

Jessica:

Probably the torture scene in the dungeon. Like that was not something I originally had in there. Sorry. Yeah, that was sort of a dark path to go down that I hadn't expected. I'm like, you know what, it fits, so let's do that. That was difficult to write. Like I'm not a monster. That actually was difficult to, to put onto page and sort of try to handle in a way that's not just like torture porn. So I hope I toed the line well enough there, but not had anyone be. overly complaining about it, so mustn't be too bad on that. But I guess, like, I get surprised all the time because, and I know you probably hear this from any time you talk to writers, is they're like, the characters just take over. But, like, they do, for someone that doesn't, like, I don't outline and I don't put, like, my outlines might be, like, a dot point being all, like, A go to A to B, or some very brief sort of snippets of things that have to rather than, you know, Like a scene by scene breakdown, which I know a lot of authors that outline do. So I, I do get surprised on the daily when I'm writing and like, okay, we're, we're doing this now. Right. Let's just carry on then. Because that's just what feels right in that moment. It might go back and get edited out or changed again, but there are certainly yeah, all the time. Didn't expect that to happen. And I'm like, okay, let's go with it. Ray with the guard when he's trying to break into the dungeon where he's like, oh yeah, let's just go, fuck, it's the eye to get in. I don't care, that, that works for the tracks really, so we just carry on.

Sara:

I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Jessica:

You do, it's just business, man.

Lilly:

You mentioned not getting negative feedback about the torture scene and It made me realize it must be a strange experience getting feedback on the first novel in a series while you're working on the rest of it. Has that affected your writing at all, or do you just kind of try to separate it from while you're working on future books?

Jessica:

Everyone always says, don't read your reviews. They're for readers. They're not for authors. But like, oh no, I'm like pathetic. I like refresh Goodreads like once a week to see if I've got any new reviews because I'm self absorbed apparently. But I think there is merit in all types of feedback. Like I think there are things like, so if I did, for example, here, like. if there were reviews saying like, wow, this is just gratuitous. And I'm like, okay, so maybe it's not just the wrong people reading it is that I'm not handling it properly would be what I would take from that. Whereas if I've got someone that's like, oh, this book was so violent and I'm like, it's so much swearing. Okay. Well, they're not the, or they're not the audience is sort of the kind of thing that I'd look for. So it's just more, more on it. I guess it's how. certain things are handled, not necessarily the content. So like that sort of things that I would keep aware on and probably act on if, you know, became aware that things were just not necessarily unnecessary, but just not handled well. Not that like I'm going to go back and republish book one or anything like that. Like it's out there now, but it's like, I still think that there's, there's merit in it to learn about even yet how things are handled. moving forward with stuff. So, yeah, I guess you get the moment of like, oh, well, I wish I didn't do that, but you know, well, too bad for sad, it's out there now. I can't do anything about it. So just move on. So, cause yeah, I get people being like, Oh, I hate Kriya. He's so boring. He doesn't do anything. He just whines. And I'm like,

Sara:

Well, they're wrong,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Jessica:

for Korea.

Sara:

Justice for Kreia. So you talked a little bit about how part of this book is, is kind of an exploration of, at what point do the ends stop justifying the means? What would you like readers to take away from the book?

Jessica:

Oh, that's a really, like, deep question. Going to require thought. I guess I didn't write with any intention to say I want people to, you know, Re evaluate their opinion on something or anything like that. I certainly haven't put any conscious into what I want people to achieve it. Like, I just wanted to write a story that was hopefully enjoyable, but just was this is, I know it's a cop out answer.

Sara:

No, I mean, there's nothing wrong with saying, I just want people to to enjoy the story.

Jessica:

Yeah. Like, if they take something away from it, great. Like, but I guess I haven't specifically aimed to put a. I think sort of being there is like that sort of what I write in some of my earlier things. It's like the looking at say the balance between, you know, like duty and personal want or like obligation expectations and sort of just navigating that, that is relatable to everyone. We all have things. That are expected of us. And if we don't go that way, we don't live up to those expectations or follow the path that people think that we might. Again, look, I wrote this when I was in high school. So it was like, Oh, it's so hard. I can't get good grades. I'm a disappointment. And no, I didn't live up to the expectations of everyone. Like there was all that teenage angst probably going underneath it when I in the really early stages of planning it. But look, I think that is a, a human experience we can all relate to. I think we all feel like we let people down sometimes and we look back and say, Oh shit, I really did make the wrong decision. And sometimes you can't fix it. You can't make amends for it. You just have to move forward, which I guess is sort of where. Amigurumi is like, she can't make people undead. Sorry, un well, yeah, yeah. She can't bring, like, change things, like, her, you know, going home and even her going back and marrying Reminisce, like, that's not bringing people back and that's not undoing anything that she's done, but it's kind of just shows that it can be futile to make attempts to change stuff and just, you just have to keep moving forward.

Lilly:

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's adulthood, right? Like dealing with the consequences of your actions. Luckily, I haven't destroyed any countries, so I think I'm doing okay.

Jessica:

Wait.

Sara:

And

Jessica:

doing better than Amica.

Sara:

I, fully believe that shit would have gone down with Reminis even if she had married him. I mean, he's, he's a pretty bad guy. I don't, I don't think her marrying him would have saved countries, really.

Jessica:

Oh. God, I just would have put everything on a different path, because he had his own agenda with having Amica, like, married and turned over to the Tower, so it would have been, like, probably the same outcome, just a different path.

Sara:

Yeah.

Jessica:

So. Yeah.

Sara:

justice for Amica 2.

Jessica:

always

Lilly:

Yeah.

Jessica:

So then I guess, yeah, it's like, you can't always lament your bad decisions either, because sometimes you're screwed no matter what you do. So You just have to move forward. There's this positive note for it.

Lilly:

Yeah. Try your best. Just keep trying

Jessica:

Try your best. That should all happen, but just try your best. Yes.

Lilly:

Well, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. It has been So wonderful having you. Normally I would ask if you could give us any teasers about your current projects, but I sure do hope it's more of this.

Jessica:

So I am currently working on book three. So I did take pretty much a year off last year just to recover from the trauma and put it on myself. I was trying to write a whole book in a year well, write, edit and publish in a year. So I've just sort of come back to it now. So, I'm feeling pretty positive. So coming into book three, there's going to be two new perspectives that'll be joining the cast. So we've got from four to six characters that will follow. So yeah, I'm pretty excited to be working on, on that now, feeling good about it finally, again.

Sara:

Well, I can't wait. Can you tell our listeners where you can be found on the internet so that they can hear updates from you buy all of your other books?

Jessica:

Yep. So my website, jessicaamcminn. com has my main links to where you can get two free novellas for the series as well as a little online shop where there's some merch and signed copies. available. I'm mostly active on Instagram at jessicaamcminn and and blue sky is probably my other main one. Again, at jessicaamcminn, that's pretty much where I'm found everywhere. So, if you look up any of those handles, I think I'm on TikTok, but I don't use it. I'm on Twitter, but I don't use it. But if you feel the need to follow me there anyway, you can find me there. Jessica A. McKinney. No dots, no spaces.

Sara:

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat with us. This has been lovely.

Jessica:

My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And I'm glad you enjoyed your time with my little book.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!