Fiction Fans

Author Interview: The Way Up is Death by Dan Hanks

• Episode 174

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Your hosts are joined by Dan Hanks to discuss his scifi, thriller, adventure, every-genre-really novel, The Way Up is Death. They talk about large casts in focused scenes, unlikeable vs irredeemable characters, and the meaning of life.

Find more from Dan:
https://www.danhanks.com/
https://bsky.app/profile/danhanks.bsky.social
https://www.instagram.com/dan_hanks/


Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon


Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License



Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

I'm Sarah and I'm so pleased to welcome Dan Hanks onto the podcast to talk about The Way Up Is Death, our first author interview of the year.

Dan:

Hey, excellent. Thanks for having me on.

Sara:

A pleasure to have you.

Lilly:

before we dive into this book, we have our three quick intro questions. The first one, what is something great that happened recently? Dan, do you have something ready or should I pick on Sarah?

Dan:

I have something ready. Yes, I have prepared well. Obviously the book launched this week and one of the best things that happened was that a a lovely Barnes and Noble in South Centre in Seattle gave me my very own table at the front of the store. With piles, piles of the way up is death and swashbuckler is my last book as well. So that was pretty cool to see

Lilly:

Did I miss that by like, oh, how long ago was that?

Dan:

that was a couple of days. So that was Tuesday.

Lilly:

That's, that's my Barnes Noble.

Dan:

Is that your Barnes and Noble? They are wonderful.

Sara:

is the table still there? How long is the table going to be there?

Dan:

I don't know. My girlfriend popped down to see it the next day and it was still there. And there were a couple of, a copies had been sold, which was great. But they were really supportive of Swashbucklers. So I had asked if they wanted to blurb the new book. And Shannon, the lovely store manager there, did and enjoyed it and gave me a blurb. But I had no idea that they were going to do anything like this. So I was thrilled to see that.

Sara:

That's lovely. If Lily, if it's still there, we should go and I'm going to be going to visit Lily next week. So if it's there, we should go search for it.

Lilly:

Lily Adventures so I like might swing by and check it out.

Dan:

Excellent. Well, I hope it's still there. No, actually I hope it's not still there. I hope they've

Lilly:

They've all, yeah, it's just an empty table. Sarah, how about you?

Sara:

my good thing is that I have delicious leek and potato soup leftovers for lunch today.

Dan:

Nice.

Lilly:

Wonderful.

Sara:

I'm excited.

Lilly:

good thing was almost food related. I went to go get donuts this morning. Awesome. But that was immediately eclipsed by the fact that there was an older man sitting like, you know, at one of the little tables in the donut shop, sharing a donut with his parrot. And it was just like this Huge, gorgeous, navy blue bird just perched on the back of the chair sitting across from him, and he would give it a little piece of donut, and it would crunch on it a little bit, and I was not expecting that, and it was very cool.

Dan:

That's amazing. Well, I'm lucky because most of my, like, if you'd asked me in any other week, mine would have been food related.

Lilly:

They often are food related. I'm a very food motivated person.

Sara:

I think we're both very food motivated people.

Dan:

Yeah. I wouldn't have had a parrot story.

Lilly:

that was just so unexpected and delightful. Started the day well. What is everyone drinking today? I have a purple jasmine tea, and I thought that would mean that the tea itself is purple. It's not. There were just a couple of purple flowers in it, so, oh well.

Sara:

I also have tea but sadly I did not put my kettle on soon enough, so it's kind of lukewarm. But it's, it's still good tea.

Dan:

I'm joining you with the tea. I was going to have a whiskey. I'm everyone around me is sick and I'm coming to Seattle soon and I'm trying desperately not to get sick. And I find that whiskey helped burn it away. A lot of the time, but I thought I should be sober for this podcast. I've just gone for English breakfast.

Sara:

I mean, whiskey, is a time honored drink for the podcast. I'm a whiskey drinker. So there's nothing, nothing wrong with a little bit of whiskey.

Dan:

No.

Lilly:

And this is actually a book podcast. We're not here to talk about parrots and tea. Although we could do that for an hour if we felt like it. Has anyone read anything good lately? Other than, of course, the book we are about to discuss at length.

Dan:

Well, I happen to be an editor in my day job, I guess you could say, I'm a freelance editor. And I just got to read this most amazing gothic fantasy horror book called Our Gifted Hearts by Jennifer Kennedy, which has just been announced by Angry Robot. And I believe it's coming out in October this year and it's absolutely fantastic. So I highly recommend that.

Sara:

We will have to keep an eye out for that one.

Dan:

Yes, absolutely.

Lilly:

I'm still struggling through misery by Stephen King.

Sara:

Good luck. You can do it.

Dan:

Sounds like you've been reading that for a while. Oh,

Lilly:

I'm not being very fair to the book, because I'm not expecting to like it. Which is never a good energy to bring to a novel. But this is like the fourth or fifth Stephen King book I've read. And it so far is maintaining my impression of him.

Dan:

really? Yeah.

Sara:

I have only been doing podcast reading this week. So nothing exciting to, I mean, they've been good books, but nothing exciting to, to answer this question with.

Lilly:

Nothing extracurricular.

Sara:

Yes, not this time.

Lilly:

Well, that's okay, because we have a wonderful book to discuss. And, Dan, one thing that we have noticed doing this podcast for a little while is that genre definitions vary wildly person to person. It's a very individual and personal thing. So, What genres do you feel this book falls into? Because you also have like a spread of stuff going on. There's a lot happening here.

Dan:

All of them, which is, it seems to be the thing I do. I start in one maybe, and I have the intention of keeping it quite blinkered and, focused and on track. And then I'll just from out of nowhere, skip into something else. So this one in particular does seem to skirt around science fiction. Some people have said thrillers. It's certainly horror to me. So I think horror at its core and an element of, to fantasy as well. Yeah, I haven't thrown anything else. There's no rom com in there. So maybe that'll be my next book, maybe. But yeah, I think predominantly horror, I would have said with science fiction and fantasy elements.

Sara:

It's interesting to hear you say that you start out often intending to only write one genre and then other things creep in. What can I ask what genre you intended this book to be? Or did you intend for it to be a blend from the beginning?

Dan:

I mean, I kind of always figure when I sit down to write, I will include a little bit of everything, but funnily enough, I thought this was going to be more literary, which is this, it's a really strange thing to say, but I, I love lost and I wanted to. sort of bring that sort of focus on characters to this book and make it less about the horror and more about these characters in this difficult situation to work with each other and against each other in some cases and, and try and get through it. And on the day I signed the contract for this book, I saw a cover revealed on Instagram for this other book and it, it had But I can't remember what it had. I think it had a mountain on it. And, but the, the lettering went up the middle and I was like, that's kind of cool. That, cause my book was initially called Ascend. Cause that's the word that appears across the tower door. So I was, like, oh, wow, that kind of cover would be brilliant for this book. Clicked on it, looked at it. It's exactly the same setup as I'd intended. Almost. Almost exactly. And I was like, Oh shit, I've got to pivot. So I think I, I still haven't read that book. I really want to, but I've tried to distance myself from it as I wrote mine. And, I believe that book is more literary sort of supernatural. So I pivoted to more of a thrill ride, which is stuff I, you know, it's the kind of genre I'm used to and have done before. While still trying to work in some of those. character beats, you know, Lost style.

Lilly:

For the sake of the argument, Alden's character introduction is kind of a little rom com y.

Dan:

mean, it, it was a little bit to begin with, but he was a real sad sack in the first couple of drafts. So it was very, very depressing. And then people commented on that, and I was like, okay, so let's, let's lift it up a bit. Let's make him a bit more he's on the cusp of hope, I like to think. he's been through some crap, but he's on the cusp of hope and things are looking good. I do that horrible thing that writers do to their characters.

Lilly:

You mentioned that he's been through some crap and is on the cusp of hope. I think this is the first book I've read that just, that simply takes place in a post COVID reality where it's not like the pandemic is the focus of the story. It is simply a piece of recent history, and I think that's a milestone. I was like, okay, we're now at the point where it's just something that happened, and it affects everyone, but it's in the past. I thought that was really interesting.

Dan:

Yeah, I think at the tail end of it, we were all discussing, you know, how soon is too soon. This is obviously something that's affected everybody in the world. Do we want to talk about it? Do we need to mention it? if we mention it, do we date the story? But I can't help, but feel, you know, it's, it's part of our history now. Funnily enough, I mentioned it in Swashbucklers, which came out three years ago. Just very briefly, my characters go to a market and I think they're sort of, at least I vaguely remember doing this there were crowds around them and they were sort of like, okay, so this is, we're back to sort of normality again in a way. So I just, I have found that quite interesting because we have all sort of gone back to normality. in lots of ways, despite having gone through this horrendous trauma in our lives, for a lot of us, at least.

Lilly:

Absolutely.

Dan:

Yeah.

Sara:

so talking a little bit about Alden this book is told in very close third person point of view, and we have three characters who alternate as the perspective character. Can you talk a little bit about how you chose Alden, Nia, and Dirk instead of the other characters in the tower?

Dan:

That's a really good question. There are some characters in, the book who I didn't quite, I don't relate to them in lots of ways. Now, Dirk is a strange one, because I relate to him in absolutely no way, shape, or form.

Sara:

Yeah, I was gonna ask.

Dan:

that made him really fun to write. And I sort of poured a lot of my grievances about the world into that character. So, I have experience, but it was like I was turning, taking the opposite of my experience And pouring that into Dirk. Nia, I was inspired by, you know, hearing lots of stories about women in creative fields and I know through indirect experience how that can be and how just frustrating and banging your head against a brick wall it can feel sometimes. Alden I relate to the most, even though I'm not a teacher, I'm not a musician, or haven't been for a long time. He's a lot younger than I am but he is dealing with sort of loneliness and grief having lost, you know, his dog, Leia, and, and his family. So he's in a pretty tough place at the beginning, and I think a lot of us can relate to, to those things. So I thought they were the three most interesting people to focus on, but obviously I couldn't do, I didn't have enough space to do a lost where everybody gets their own chapter or episode. Which I think is the ideal because then you get to experience a bit of everybody and then you don't know necessarily, you know, Who the focus is, although maybe in Lost we kind of did, but characters would come in and you'd be going, Oh my God. Okay. So we're going to start following. Oh no, he's dead. So, so, but I didn't have space to be able to tackle everyone at the same time. So I was, there was, there's obviously a hierarchy and that's just the logistical nature of picking a cast of 13 characters and shoving them in a tower, which I regretted a lot during my revision. I'll be honest.

Sara:

Did you ever consider cutting down on some of the characters? I guess that would have changed the book considerably for spoilery reasons.

Dan:

I, yeah, it brought me to tears a few times because having a big cast is not an unusual thing in a book, but having a big cast and having them in every scene is tricky because inevitably you will forget someone as you move through it. through the story. And you have to give everyone, you know, a unique persona and give them something to do, something to say, but then you've got to make sure the reader understands there is 13 people in this room. If this person said something, you have to try and form a connection very quickly. It's really tricky to do, whether I, I, Did it well enough or not? I mean, I'll always be wondering, but yeah, there were moments where I was like, maybe we'll have six people go, maybe it'll just be a first person that eventually bring up the tower by themselves. But yeah, I'm glad I stuck with it, but it was, it was tricky.

Lilly:

Dirk was actually my favorite character, and I'm wondering if I should have prefaced that with confession.

Dan:

That's good. I think you're the only person.

Lilly:

I wonder, okay, hold on, I'm gonna quote your book at you, I want, I don't think it's gonna be spoilery, but let me make sure. One moment.

Sara:

We're going off note here.

Lilly:

yeah,

Sara:

I enjoyed hating Dirk. I didn't, I didn't like him, but I liked hating him.

Dan:

yes,

Lilly:

Dev stood up and put his arms around Kim as he had been doing a lot, clearly suffering some kind of grandma fetish. Which is a quote from one of Dirk's perspective chapters for the listeners. And I just really loved his voice.

Dan:

yeah, he was because he's so opposite me, but I know so many personas like him in the world. He was a lot of fun to write because I hated him so much. And I, I'd be like, so what would the worst person in the world say in this moment? And just like, just, just run with it. So there was a lot of stuff I was able to. To work in with Dirk that no one would ever say or think, or maybe they skirt around thinking it, but they'd certainly never say it. And he was just brazen because life has treated him pretty well. He's fallen upwards. So he really doesn't give a shit and he will just say things and think things that most of us wouldn't.

Lilly:

So these 13 characters who you have gathered together in this novel are forced to ascend a mysterious floating tower. And the readers discover, and the characters, that each level is based on something familiar to the characters. There's a video game, I think two different movies. Were there any level ideas that you had to cut?

Dan:

No, I don't believe so. I will say that they weren't all planned. So I knew the first two and you would be going into a dungeon that would be a sort of video game esque fantasy world. I wanted to work the Poseidon adventure in there because I love that movie from the 70s. And, and sort of a lot of this book, a lot of the vibe of this book was drawn from those disaster movies of the 70s that I grew up on. And being an avid reader of these ridiculously scary haunted, true haunting books, which were in my junior school library at school. So at eight and nine, I'd be taking these, these were terrifying books, what they were doing in that library. I have no idea. Someone should have been in trouble for that, but I used to just keep taking them home, scaring the shit out of myself and then bringing them back. So I knew I wanted a haunted house in that as well. And those are three incredibly different settings. So it was really just a case of what am I going to throw them into next? What would be completely bizarre and would flummox them until they sort of begin to understand that these things are potentially related to them. They are connected to the tower and the tower is connected to them but there wasn't anything That I cut, which is a shame, but there are quite a few levels, and my brain's not that, not that big, so, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do that much.

Sara:

Did you have a favorite level?

Dan:

Yes, the haunted house. And it's not just because, it's not just because it's a haunted house, and it's not just a haunted house, like we're used to seeing in movies. It's a suburban haunted house. there was a show on, and I can't remember the name, but one of the images as it started, and it was about paranormal stuff. And one of the images was a lamp swinging at the end of a hall, just in a suburban terraced house. And that freaked me out as a kid. And so that was the kind of thing I wanted to go for. I wanted to go for just an everyday, regular house that is evil as fuck. And then I thought, okay, so I could have Alden or Nia go through it, but I thought, who's the most fun to take into a haunted house? And so that was Dirk's introduction, I think. Almost. That was his first proper chapter anyway. Yeah. And I love that. I love those, those chapters.

Sara:

I am not much of a horror reader, I have to confess. Horror scares me. That chapter included.

Dan:

I'm sorry. And you're welcome.

Lilly:

How much do you plan when you write?

Dan:

I write plot first. So I like to have a skeleton of, of what's happening, but this is really the first book where I, I really only came up with a setup and maybe the first two or three levels, and then I pantsed the rest. So I actually didn't have a plan for the second half of the book, other than a general idea about the, the tone of it. So I wanted the tone to go, a little bit more lost a little bit more as lots of reviewers have said, Matt Hague which a lot of reviewers have been saying as a reason for not liking it, but that was the reason I wanted that in there. So it's very deliberate. so. Yeah, I normally I plot books. Normally I like to know where it's heading. I like to know kind of what the ending is going to be. And then I'll pants my way through the, the bare bones of it, really. So I have a skeleton plot and then I'll pants through it. And usually that works quite well for me. And this one, it was, it was really a case of here's my setup for maybe the first, third, first half of the book. And then I'm going to find my way through the rest of it. Which probably was the reason I had to do the most edits on this one. But I think it worked out all right. I'm pretty pleased with it.

Lilly:

Well, I can think of about a thousand follow up questions for that, but they are all spoilers. So, before we get to the spoilers section, I have a question for Sarah. Who should read this book?

Sara:

You should read this book if you want a high concept, action packed adventure that incorporates aspects from lots and lots of different media genres. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Okay, so I don't usually want a book to end with like, but it was all a dream, everything is, is fine, you know, or whatever. But in this case I did because so many, so many characters that I liked died. I was very sad about it. I wanted, I wanted them all to be magically alive again.

Lilly:

And you teased us with that too. You were like, I can bring one character back, maybe they'll all come back. Or at least that was what in my head. No, in fact, most of them stayed dead.

Sara:

Yeah, and I was, I was really sad by that. How, how different is the final product from the first draft? You said that it had to go through a lot of editing or a lot more editing than some of your other books. Were there ever any versions where more people survived?

Dan:

that

Sara:

My heart, my heart.

Dan:

that was, I'm sorry. There were, there were moments as I was writing it where I thought, I wonder how many people I can save at the end of this. But, but no, there was only one draft where what happens happens and Reiki ends up alone. Whether Nia dies or not, I don't know because she has given her life in that final level to save Reiki, but she has given her life on Earth. Maybe she's gone back with the tower. Maybe the tower thinks that's her. That contract has been adhered to, maybe she's somewhere else. if I was ever forced to do a a sequel, I'd never plan this as a, as a part of a series, by the way. But if I was ever forced to do a sequel, I would probably start there. That would be fun to tackle, just Nia waking up somewhere completely different. But no, I, I did wonder the, the stuff with Reiki was fun to do because, I'm sure there have been. I'm sure I've pulled that from some, I've been inspired by something like where what you do is, is then done to you. I'm sure I'm having a blank right now, but I'm sure there's a very famous example about that. And I thought I did kill her off. And then I had the idea to go, okay, so this level is going to be about, you can't do stuff to each other because it will then be done to you and we'll undo it. So bringing her back was a, a happy accident, I thought. So at that point, I didn't know who'd make it through to the end. And probably until the very last bit, I did have, I think Nia Nia was going to let Reiki do the final level because she thought that was what was needed. and then I thought actually that doesn't work. So, so it almost ended up with Nia surviving. But then, yeah, that wasn't the plan. So I had to go back and fix it.

Sara:

I mean, my headcanon is still going to be that Nia survives. I like this idea that she's with the tower now, she's not dead.

Dan:

In my

Sara:

people survived.

Dan:

in my head, I don't know. And I, I liked the idea. That she is out there somewhere.

Lilly:

you really kept us guessing about who would survive. I

Dan:

have seen one or two reviews and I'm generally against dipping into the reader space. And, and, but I, you know, my books just come out. I want to, I want to hear nice things about it because I was writing it for so long alone. And it's just to know that it's hit home with people in certain ways is so gratifying and it makes, it really enthuses you and gets you to. To move on to other projects quite nicely. But someone did say, and I agree with this, because I focused only on three particular characters and their point of views, you then determine they're most likely to get through to the final stages. And, you know, there is a hierarchy of time I spent on certain people. I did want the priest going first. So I did build him up a little bit just before I got rid of him. Just because I think in the Poseidon adventure, Gene Hackman is the priest and he gets through all the way to the end and I was just like, no, I'm just gonna, just gonna kick him out on. But that's, that's nice of you to say. Thank you. Because it is, it's a tricky one because any, I think any story, if you know who the main characters are, you have an idea that they're going to make it through to the end. And it takes some bold decision making, you know, in, in that process to, to get rid of a main character, which some people have done, but in this case, I wanted them to get through to the end. So there are different ways I could have done it, but I'm glad it kept you guessing. Cause that's what I wanted.

Lilly:

think Kim threw me off the most. Up until that point, Well, she's the sec second? Third, I guess, with the priest. The two earlier characters who die in the tower, I disliked pretty immensely. So I was like, awesome, my gut is working, I can tell who I'm supposed to like and who will make it to the end. And then, Kim gets got, and I was like, okay, throwin all of that out the window.

Dan:

Yeah. Well, Dirk was you know, for, for some of this book, Dirk was going to redeem himself. So he wasn't going to do the things that he did. And, but then I thought he's clearly the bad guy and I would have expected the bad guy to redeem himself because it's more interesting, but I think it's done so often. Maybe to me it isn't as interesting and we're living in this world at the moment where there are these. Very two dimensional characters who are simply awful people and there's no gray area. There's no redeeming They are just the worst people. And I thought, why not? Let's just lean into that. So yeah, Dirk's gonna push Paul Kim into the arms of her dead husband who will then off her.

Sara:

Yeah, I was also expecting Dirk to have a, like, a redemption arc. I'm not mad that he doesn't, but I definitely was a little surprised when he's just the villain the whole time. But it works for him, like, I can't, I can't see him feeling bad about anything that he did.

Dan:

Yeah, and it's just, I, I just wanted to, to tackle that aspect of our society. There are just people like that, and we all have to deal with them, and to, to have maybe Alden go bad, or do something horrible and not within his own character, and to have Dirk redeem himself, is probably what a lot of people were expecting, and I, tried to confound things by keeping things as they were, which then probably didn't confound some people and they were like, okay, this, this didn't do anything interesting. So it's a tricky one. It's a tricky one to balance. But for me, the most interesting thing was actually just leaning into him being a dick.

Sara:

So I really want to know what Reiki does afterwards. Like did, did Earl have a will? How does she handle all of the trauma that she's just been through? Does she get lots and lots of therapy? I hope so. But also I can't imagine a therapist like actually understanding what she's been through because it's so

Dan:

Yeah.

Sara:

world.

Dan:

Well, that's the fun part because I don't know. I think I allude to the fact that she might hear sirens as she falls asleep, but whether she is alone or not, I don't know. I think she probably, I don't know if I mentioned her mum, I can't remember because I, I think in other drafts, mum just wasn't around, but I actually don't know if she was there. past or could be available to, to come and look after Reiki. So I think in the nice part of my head, her mum comes to get her and like Reiki and Earl don't have time to consider as they're trying to get through this challenge, which is why she's never really mentioned, but actually she's at home and Reiki will go back and get all the therapy she needs to get through this, which is a lot.

Lilly:

Late in the book, we find out that there are actually other teams going through this tower. Aliens who are experiencing it differently from our human main characters. Do you have a vision for what the aliens were experiencing, or is it a mystery to all humans?

Dan:

All I knew was that it would be And I do, I do think I tackle this in the book is that their, their levels are obviously completely different. I think they have a, the start point and an end point. And they exist in a slightly separate dimension to our, our main. But they are going through different things, different alien landscapes pulled from their, their own. You know, subconscious is so, no, I couldn't tell you again, I'm not clever enough to, I'm not one of those authors who just has this world Bible of everything in the background of this book, which I would love to be, by the way, I think that's really cool. And the people who do that are amazing. I don't have that skillset. So just, just coming up with what the aliens looked like was difficult enough. You know, what would, what would be weird. What would be weird at this point for this alien? Oh, let's make it a collection of eyeballs. That would be brilliant. You know, eyeballs freak me out anyway, so that'd be slightly gross. So yeah, I, I got as far as describing the aliens we tackle their home worlds at the end. But I, I couldn't tell you what they're going through. Maybe that if, you know, if, if this becomes a runaway blockbuster and I'll have to do it from the point of view of the aliens, maybe, maybe I'll come up with some weird shit for you.

Sara:

I did like that the aliens were not just your stereotypical like humanoid, but different colored alien. They were very alien. That was neat.

Dan:

Yeah, but I started out having them as stereotypical humanoid aliens, which is why when they end up on the, the battle cruiser and they go out into the corridor and they discover these, these people or these aliens who've been fighting and they are all humanoid. And I thought I did get past that and I thought that's really boring. So when we meet the actual aliens I had to, I had to sit there and think for a bit because I wanted to do something slightly different.

Sara:

So about halfway through the book the characters start to associate the levels of the tower with This theory about the meaning of life that Google says came from psychologists Martel I don't, I don't know how true that is, but we did, we did Google it.

Lilly:

I tried.

Sara:

yeah. can you, can you tell us a little bit more about how you wove this concept into the novel?

Dan:

Yeah. So I wanted, I did want to explore the meaning of life. That, and that was all from right from the very beginning. I thought I wanted to do this more literary piece about people and exploring who they are and how we relate to each other. So I went, I, this is the one bit where I did actually do some research. I couldn't, you know, the fact that you've just relayed their names to me means nothing because I've already forgotten it. But that there is this Very well thought out, you know, philosophy about the three stages. I think I can't remember what they are off the top of my head. I honestly, do you know what I should have prepared for that bit? But there is a philosophy about the meaning of life and there are three aspects to it. And I wanted to divide the tower into levels that would roughly reflect those aspects and that the, the characters would sort of, you know, obviously we have a, a moment at the Island, which is a bit of a, a bit of downtime for them where they get to sit around and chat and play the meaningful played, is it? Is it called just life over there? I

Lilly:

Just life or the game of life,

Dan:

the game of life here over here. I think it is which I grew up playing and I loved. So I just thought I'll, do you know what that works? I'll throw that in. So while they discuss you know, what the tower is about and the book is obviously found there by near, I think and they, and they go through this philosophy and then, a bit later on. So I, I wove that in, and then I discovered this Norse myth about this tree at the center of all these universes. And I was like, okay, so that's what, that's what this is. So whether I've subconsciously pulled that from somewhere earlier in my life, I don't know, but so there were many different aspects to this that I, that I wanted to weave in, but the meaning of life was definitely one. There is a lot of research out there. I did go through it enough to try and weave into the levels I had in this book. There were times when I was like, okay, this is a bit of a stretch. I don't know how I'm going to make this work, but hopefully I got there in the end.

Lilly:

I have in our notes, because I also did not remember off the top of my head, coherence, purpose, and significance were the three levels.

Dan:

Okay, Thank you for telling me what what my book was about.

Lilly:

took notes. We cheated.

Dan:

Yeah, that was fun. That was fun to play with because obviously I'm going through it and I'm like, okay, so what do these characters think about this? And what is significant to someone? And what is, what is purpose? And the purpose of these characters is, is to survive, but also to make sure the next generation survives and to do what you can for them. You know, once you've realized we can only do so much. Then you want to try and push, push as hard as you can for the next generation and being a parent, that's something I relate to. And I had a thought today, actually, as I was, I was thinking about this interview and thinking about the tower. And it is kind of, it's a kind of representation of history and each level. You know, we all land in each level and try and have to figure stuff out. And then you land in the next level, and that's the next generation. And they are just as bemused as we were in this level. But there are little bits and pieces of information you carry through with you, and that's history. And if you pay attention to what's come before, it can help you get to the, it can help you move forward. And if you don't, and there are plenty of people who just dismiss history. You know, they fall by the wayside. So I thought that was an accidental cool thing that I thought related to the tower and the whole meaning of life and that philosophy.

Lilly:

Were there any other aspects or scenes about this book that surprised you?

Dan:

Well, Dirk, Dirk pushing Kim into the painting surprised me. Cause I was going to have him maybe save her from it. And then I thought, no. In fact, I may not have even thought, no, I may have just typed him getting rid of her. And sometimes that happens, sometimes I'm a touch typist. So my fingers generally work faster than my brain does. And it is a subconscious thing on some level when you're typing, and your brain is delivering the information without you actually realizing it. And so there are, Moments that happen when you're a writer and you've probably heard lots of authors say this where these characters did something that surprised them and from the outside, it might seem really ridiculous that's happening, but it happens and you get to the end of that paragraph and you go, holy fuck, what did this character just do? And now how do I get out of it? So that was a moment that, that surprised me because I was gonna, at that point, Dirk might have redeemed himself and then he decided not to. So dark, man.

Sara:

I

Lilly:

I did want to shake him, loved the guy, but he kept scheming to murder people after he figured out that he needed one person. I guess he didn't know that there were 13 levels. Did he?

Dan:

I think we, think we talk about it in the island a little bit, whether we mention them thinking there are so many so many levels left. I don't think we did that, but I think we allude to the fact that could be nine in total, maybe.

Lilly:

Because he realized one person needed to die to get to the next level, so obviously if he killed people too early, they'd run out of people to get to the top.

Dan:

Yeah.

Lilly:

he thought that through.

Dan:

Yeah. So as soon as he realizes he starts playing the game, which is what I imagine someone like him would do As nice he might, as he might seem, you know, with his facade and he might try and charm you, he will push you into a painting to be crushed to death when he has his, has his opportunity. So that was kind of interesting to explore too. The fact that he's just like, okay, so this is how it works. I'm just going to do whatever I have to, to get to the top. But obviously, like you say, he can't do it too soon. He's got to pick his moments. And I think one of the interesting things was that with Dev, he, he gently encourages Dev to just give up and Dev's already there and Dirk just gives him a little nudge and keeps him where he is, which I thought was really sad for Dev. Cause I liked him.

Sara:

mean, at least. At least Dev gets to go out drunk on an island that's mostly nice.

Dan:

Well, that's what I thought too. I thought, you know, if you're going to go. At least you get to enjoy it with some alcohol.

Sara:

I hope it was nice whiskey.

Dan:

yeah,

Lilly:

I

Dan:

I think he enjoyed himself right until the end.

Lilly:

thought there was a very interesting sort of a parallel that raised a question between Dirk and Alden, because they were both committed to doing whatever it took to get to the top, although Alden was on behalf of Reiki. And so, theoretically, Alden also could have been in the position where he needed to murder someone. in order to get Reiki to the top. He doesn't end up actually confronting that because he basically, at that point, has to kill Dirk for self defense, so it's not exactly the same situation. But there could have been a standoff at some point where one of the other characters was like, No, I don't want to die. And Alden was like, Well, Reiki's gotta get to the top, so, sorry.

Dan:

I mean, that would have been fascinating, but then I would have had to face that dilemma and gone through with it. And I didn't want that. Um, he does sort of face it when he sat on the hill under the tree and there are three leaves on the tree, and he's the first one to get to that stage. So if he knows, he knows if he takes one of his leaves and escapes that level, one of Nia or Reiki can't escape the level. So he does sort of confront that fact without being with them. And which is why he decides, no, he's gonna give them every opportunity and sit there and wait and distract this alien that wants to kill him. And sit there with his dog.

Lilly:

Yeah, Leia, or Leia, probably. Yeah, probably.

Dan:

Yeah, I mean, we say Leia, but I,

Lilly:

Um, if it's, if it's the Star Wars name, Leia.

Dan:

Yes,

Lilly:

Yes, okay.

Dan:

it is.

Lilly:

I was so curious if she was modeled after a dog that perhaps existed.

Dan:

Yes. Yeah. I've had, I've grown up with dogs. She, well, I had a Border Collie who was a boy called Domino, who I adored. So I've gone through the grief of losing dogs in my life. But, yeah, so Leia was kind of modeled after Domino, but I had my Cavapoo Indy. Who I had since she was a puppy for the last 15 years, but she was around while I wrote the book and I was drawing on all this other experience. And, and Indy was also almost called Leia, funnily enough. So she was kind of sort of the inspiration, her and my other dog, Domino. But Indy was predominantly, she She's my shadow. She was just this little black thing that just followed me around everywhere. We'd go on these hikes and, you know, we had these amazing experiences that Alden and Leia clearly did. So I, I drew on all that past experience to write this and put Alden through that, and then just before my book went to print, unfortunately, my dog Indie then got sick and passed away just before her 15th birthday. So I went through what.

Sara:

to hear that.

Dan:

No, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was traumatic. It was incredibly traumatic. It was the hardest one I'd ever had to go through because I'd raised her. And then I was, I hadn't been there for my other dogs at the end. And I had, I was for her. I, I wasn't able to be for my other dogs, but with her, you know, she was my baby. So that was incredibly traumatic. And it happened just as the book was about to go to print. So I managed to work her into the dedicated dedication, last minute. It was the final thing that was added to the book. But yeah, it was a weird thing having written that and then living it after the, after the event. But yeah, so my dog Indy was kind of mostly the inspiration for Leia. And then it turned out to be true, which, which sucks. So I need to be careful what I write in future.

Sara:

That's the bad kind of thing of life imitating art.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Dan:

Yeah, it's strange, but Swashbuckle is, you know, weirdly for a book about aged Ghostbusters with a talking fox in it. Some of that was very relatable to my actual life around the time it came out. And there was a fox as well, so she didn't talk, but there was a fox. There was, I don't know what it is, but I, I will be careful. I think I'll be doing rom coms from here on in, just to keep it safe. Yeah, so it's

Sara:

if a tower appears over the skies of England, we know who to blame.

Dan:

I mean, at this stage, would any of us be surprised if something that ridiculous happens?

Lilly:

Well, you've talked about this a little bit, but as we wrap up our conversation, is there anything you would like readers to take away from this book?

Dan:

That's a good question. I, I like the fact that a lot of readers are pleasantly surprised by the fact that this quite fast paced, action y, horror, thrill ride does make you think on some level. It's not every, everybody's cup of tea, but I did want people to, to think, you know, this is kind of how we're experiencing life. Life is this tower. It's full of shit. People are dead. dying horribly. There's not a lot we can do about it other than try and band together and deal with, you know, even the naysayers in the group, you know, of our society and try and push forward for the sake of, for the sake of the kids. So on many different levels, I think this is something I would hope people take something away with them from reading and and just think about that and it certainly, even, you know, it made me think at the end of the book, how am I focused on the wrong things in my life? Am I just too focused on myself and, you know, getting the next book out? And should I be more concerned with climate disruption and, and, you know, what's happening in places and people being displaced and the rise of horrible people to positions of power and where should I dedicate my time to, to, to To ensure that the next generation can go through. So I would hope that there is you, you are entertained by this book, but you get a little bit more from it. And it makes you think on some level. And it seems to be the case for quite a few readers, which is really nice and gratifying to hear.

Sara:

Absolutely. Do you have any current projects that you can talk about?

Dan:

I, I do actually I am writing, so my, my partner is also a writer and author of historical fiction. She's doing very well in that genre, but we've decided to try and joint write a project, which is a cozy rom com murder mystery. And it's the first time I've written in first person. So it's, it's an interesting experiment for me. But we're a little way in now and it's going really well and we're enjoying it. So, we'll see if that's my next project. I do have a I wrote a TV pilot a few years ago, which is kind of a teenage X Files y, YA horror esque vibe. And I, I'm going to try and adapt that. Into a book. So that will be probably my next me project, but, but otherwise I'm sticking to rom coms to be safe.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for joining us for this conversation. Before we let you go, can you tell our listeners where you can be found on the internet?

Dan:

Of course. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. This has been great. And it's so nice to be able to discuss the book just out in the open. Spoiler spoilers everywhere. Cause I don't really get to do that. So thank you. That's been great. That's been a joy. You can probably find me for the moment, depending on how social media survives the next, the next few months on Instagram. I'm at, at Dan underscore Hanks. Blue sky, you can find me. I can't for the life of me, remember what that would be. Cause it's much longer handle threads. You can find me through Instagram and you can ultimately find me at my website, which is just danhanks. com.

Lilly:

Great. Well, thank you so much. All

Sara:

thank you. It's been a delight to have you on and a delight to read your book.

Dan:

No, thank you. This has been wonderful. I appreciate it.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on BlueSky and Instagram at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com or leave a comment on YouTube.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!