Fiction Fans

Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros

• Episode 166

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Your hosts indulge in some serious escapism with Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros. They talk about how terribly Basgaith War Academy is run, ask themselves why anyone would want to attend it, and yet defend to the death their right to enjoy this book.




Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

And we'll be discussing Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yaros. But before we get into our spoiler free conversation, Our quick five minute warm up. Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I had a friend visit from out of town, and she made me okonomiyaki, and it was delicious. And then when she left, I still had okonomiyaki batter left over, so I made some for myself as well, and it was still delicious.

Lilly:

Ooh, that sounds fantastic.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I did my nails square shaped instead of round shaped this week.

Sara:

Fancy.

Lilly:

I feel very fancy and completely over the top indulgent, which is a very large reaction for a very small trivial thing, but sometimes it's the little things.

Sara:

Indeed.

Lilly:

What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

Thank you for asking just as I take a sip of it.

Lilly:

I timed it.

Sara:

excellent timing. I am drinking red wine, which feels more serious than this book deserves but it's what I had open. This book to me feels like a white wine kind of book.

Lilly:

Oh, I could see that.

Sara:

white wine.

Lilly:

Now, I think it could be a red wine book if you were, like, reading it in the bath. That, I think, would also be, like, an appropriate situation.

Sara:

Yes, I agree, but I am not podcasting from the bath, so.

Lilly:

Listeners, she's lying. She actually is.

Sara:

I feel like doing that, With all of the electronics that are recorded for podcasting, probably not the best idea.

Lilly:

Maybe. And the acoustics would be terrible.

Sara:

Better or worse than all of the pug snores.

Lilly:

I assumed the pugs would also be there.

Sara:

Well, yes, okay, they would be.

Lilly:

It would be amplified echoing pug snores. Well, my drink is kind of on theme for this book, although it's a little bit of a stretch. But The dark and mysterious love interest is always described as smelling minty. So I am drinking mint tea.

Sara:

That is a little bit of a stretch, but also thematic.

Lilly:

Yes, thank you. Maybe a little too literally thematic, but I plowed through this book. I have not read anything else since I picked it up. Partially because I was on a deadline, but also because I read it. Very much enjoyed it. Sarah, have you read anything else recently?

Sara:

I actually have so I have been reading Long Live Evil by Sarah Reese Brennan, which I had to put down to read or reread Fourth Wing, and I was really mad about it because Long Live Evil is so good, and I am loving it so much and Fourth Wing, while fun, just does not compare. Bye!

Lilly:

you have read this book twice now, Fourth Wing, by Rebecca Yaros, twice now. And I feel like both times you were not reading it in the right scenario.

Sara:

Well, so, the first time I read it, I was reading it with a group of friends who really enjoy this kind of I'm gonna say low brain Romantic y very, like, fanfiction vibe.

Lilly:

Low mental load.

Sara:

yes, low mental load romantic y. They're big Sarah J. Moss fans and a whole lot of other books kind of in that vein. And so we were all reading it together, and I loved the experience of reading it like that because they were having so much fun with the book that it made me have fun with the book.

Lilly:

Oh, that's good.

Sara:

But it probably wasn't the right situation for me, in that case in the, in the sense that I was enjoying it more because of who I was reading it with than because of the actual book. I think this is the kind of book that I need to read on a beach,

Lilly:

Yes, it does

Sara:

like, for a vacation. And then this time yeah, I had to stop a book that I was really enjoying to read on a And some other stuff happened that just, it was not, I, yeah, it was, it was not quite the right time for this book for me.

Lilly:

Now, I had to stop reading Teen Wolf Steric fan fiction to read this book for the podcast, so I was just vibing right on in. I was there. I was in the brain space. I was like, Escapism? Bullshit? No brain power? Yes, I'm in. Sign me up.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, like, I do think this book is really enjoyable. I'm not going to call it good by any metric because I don't think it's good by any metric, but it is a fun read.

Lilly:

I have some arguments against that. I think it is fine. It's not, like, high literature. It doesn't make me, like, contemplate it afterwards. But I've read a lot worse prose. It's fine. And extremely enjoyable.

Sara:

that's what I'm saying. Like, it's not bad. It's, it's mediocre. It's not good. It's mediocre.

Lilly:

Okay. I, I, just saying not good feels like a euphemism for terrible, I think, is the problem.

Sara:

oh, no, that's, that's not, that's not how I use words,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

which is maybe a me thing and not a language thing. Um,

Lilly:

Like, if you're just like, ooh, that's not good, that means bad.

Sara:

yes. But

Lilly:

Which I would not say this book, this book is not bad.

Sara:

it, no, it's not, it's, it's mediocre. It's fine.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

but in this case, when I say not good. I just mean, it's not good, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

Lilly:

Okay. I just wanted to clarify.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

It was so much fun. Oh my gosh, the main character? Hilarious. What a Mary Sue. Is that a weird niche phrase? I don't think it is. But just the, like, over the top perfect main character to the point where her flaw is being, like, clumsy and fragile. Which is so cliche.

Sara:

Okay. I will argue there just a little bit. not that I don't think she's a Mary Sue. She is a Mary Sue for sure. And one of her major flaws is being clumsy, but I, I think that Yaros does a good job of giving her a disability that genuinely she. Deals with the entire book

Lilly:

That's true. It's an actual physical ailment and not just, I trip sometimes.

Sara:

yeah, like, like she actually has weak joints and, and dislocates things all the time because like her body is just, that's how her body is built.

Lilly:

She has EDS, right? Is that the one I'm thinking of? Yeah.

Sara:

And so like, I really like that depiction. And I think it's important that we have protagonists who, you know, are disabled in books, in fantasy novels. It's not miraculously cured through the course of the book. It's just something that she lives with. I

Lilly:

it does complete a narrative. Her hair fades to silver at the ends. Why wasn't her name Ebony Darkness Way?

Sara:

mean, it's, it's kind of true. It's kind of true. Yaros herself has EDS, according to her Wikipedia page.

Lilly:

That probably goes a long way for why it felt so genuine, Violet's experiences,

Sara:

yes.

Lilly:

I will admit, military fantasy is not my cup of tea. so I had some trouble getting into it at the beginning.

Sara:

I don't mind that as much. My question is why does anyone want to attend this death academy? Uh, like, there are legacy attendees whose parents attended this and they know the death rate is higher than 50%. Like, what are they thinking? How does anyone let their child go into this?

Lilly:

It was so funny, Sarah.

Sara:

Right, it's so over the top. It's just, it's so, you can't take it seriously at all.

Lilly:

Not only was the school so challenging, people would die, but also, But, like, the students were encouraged to murder each other? Absolutely absurd. So funny. And, like, the teachers were so fucking useless. There were a couple of times in Sparring, when it was like, specifically, these sparring sessions are not supposed to be fatal, and then like, of course murders were still happening, and the teachers were just standing on the sidelines like, you better stop murdering or else, and then never do anything.

Sara:

I mean, and also at one point one of the teachers flat out murders a student too. Like snaps his neck.

Lilly:

Ah yeah, but that was an acceptable murder.

Sara:

Yeah, but still, how can, how can anyone want to go to a school where the teachers sometimes murder you?

Lilly:

It was just, so hysterical. And then the front of the cover has like a quote on it or something that called it brutal. So when I went into it, I was just like, I'm not supposed to be taking this seriously, am I?

Sara:

I think you are!

Lilly:

actually upset by this, are they? Because it's top tier comedy.

Sara:

I don't, like, I don't think it's supposed to be comedic. It is, it absolutely is, but

Lilly:

works because this book is so clearly, like, a romance. Like, we have the hotties, the love triangle is introduced on page one. That's an exaggeration, it's chapter one. But

Sara:

page one.

Lilly:

that's what carried me through this book. The Zayden, I think his name is, he's spelled with an x, like, oh, you know,

Sara:

with an X.

Lilly:

know, he's the hottest one. That I think if it was actually more gritty and the violence was more realistic. I would have felt. disjointed in a way. I

Sara:

I mean, I agree. Don't think that the grittiness would have worked. with the genre of this kind of new adult romanticy novel. But it's also so tropey and over the top that it just, it, it's, I, I, yeah.

Lilly:

think it was a genius move. Perfectly executed. No notes. How do you put the characters in a high stakes situation without stressing out the reader? Yarros nailed it.

Sara:

I mean, I guess, but you know that, that, None of the main characters are, or, like, the main character, Violet, and her love interests are not gonna be harmed. There's no stress there.

Lilly:

Exactly! But yes, perfect! This was not a stressful book, and I think that's a good thing.

Sara:

it's not a stressful book. I agree. It is not a stressful book. Everything that's gonna happen is very clearly telegraphed and you know where the plot's going. Mm hmm. You know how things are gonna play out.

Lilly:

Oh my gosh, before Zayden is introduced, Violet's big sister is warning her, like, how to survive the school and everything. And she says, Stay. Away. From. Zayden. him. And my comment was, oh, they're gonna fuck. He hasn't even been introduced yet. And I was like, I see where this is going. And it was fun. It was delightful. I didn't, like, the military school stuff was so silly. That, like, I was vibin with it. I, like, military schools are not my thing. Yes, let's make it absurd. I'm in.

Sara:

I just wanted it to be a little more sensible. It was, it was so over the top it threw me out.

Lilly:

that's fair. I think I read this book at exactly the right moment because I was ready for a brain distraction. And so, This, just like, fun little journey. This book is so horny. Yeah, yeah, there's some murder in there, but it didn't ruin the horniness.

Sara:

It, it is very horny. Which may be one of the things that didn't work for me, because I need my, like, I need to care about the characters in order to enjoy. Reading sex scenes. And I just don't care about the characters enough to want to read them banging.

Lilly:

not even talking about the sex scenes, I'm talking about all of the, like, shirtless descriptions.

Sara:

Well, okay. But the same, the same thing goes for that too.

Lilly:

Yeah, okay, and I mean, they're, of course, I mean, this isn't even a spoiler. Of course she fucks the dark, mysterious bad guy. Like, of course she does.

Sara:

He's, he's not enough of a trash villain for me to like it though.

Lilly:

Oh, see, he definitely is, like, in that category, though. We can agree on that, right?

Sara:

I don't know if we can. I think,

Lilly:

you are not into him.

Sara:

I, no. I think he's a bad boy. I don't think he's a trash villain.

Lilly:

Okay, that's fair. But he definitely,

Sara:

not a villain.

Lilly:

his intro is very trash villain.

Sara:

His intro is very trash villain, but he doesn't stay like that.

Lilly:

Fair. Okay.

Sara:

He loses the trash villain vibes to just ordinary bad boy vibes real early.

Lilly:

He was too nice for you. Oh, also, I did eventually realize that the cover does not call this book brutal, it calls it brutally addicting. And that makes a lot more sense. So, that's on me.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I don't know, I would say this novel doesn't have a lot of subtext or nuance. And that's fine. You just have to know what it is going into it.

Sara:

Agreed. I, I mean, like, I think this novel, does what it says on the tin, and that's fine. I enjoy books like that.

Lilly:

Yeah. I think if this book was exactly this, but it was like cozy fantasy instead of murderhobo fantasy, which I know is a Dungeons Dragons cliché, but I think it applies, You would have been more into it.

Sara:

Probably. I mean, there are cozy fantasies that do more than coast on just vibes. Just like there are romanticy books that do more than coast on just vibes.

Lilly:

oh yeah, no, I'm just saying, I think your problem with it is not that it coasts on vibes, your problem with it is that it's a edgy book that coasts on vibes.

Sara:

it's, it's just vibes that I don't vibe with.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I, however, am on this wavelength.

Sara:

I mean, it's a, it's a fun book. Like, I, I didn't hate reading it. It's just. Not a book that I probably would have reread had it not been for us reading it for the podcast.

Lilly:

that's true. Yeah, I don't know if I would reread it.

Sara:

Yeah. I will say I, I probably, and I've read Iron Flame too, which is the second book in the series. I probably am not going to pick up Onyx Storm, I think is book three, unless we read the series for the podcast. Like, I, I enjoyed Iron Flame, but two books was enough for me in this world. Unless there's something else, like, making me read it.

Lilly:

I would probably, I'm the opposite. If we weren't doing a book podcast and have a very long and solid TBR, I would probably. might keep reading them just because this is exactly the kind of book I read at 2am when I can't fall asleep. And I know I've also said that I read Clive Barker at 2am when I can't fall asleep, but these are my two settings. Gut wrenching horror or trashy romance.

Sara:

I mean, valid. I

Lilly:

I only say trashy because Zayden is so over the top. Horny romance. I should say horny romance. That's what I mean.

Sara:

think, I think this counts as trashy. Affectionate romance.

Lilly:

Yeah, I just wanted to make that clear that that's what I was saying.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

If you are looking for an escape, and if you want a horny escape, if you like dragons, and if you can laugh at the silly murder, then I think this would be a great book for you.

Sara:

If the premise of a school that kills half of its students doesn't put you off,, this is a great book to pick up.

Lilly:

I cannot stress enough that it is so, so over the top though, that it is not, like, tense or stressful at all.

Sara:

It's, it's very over the top. It is very over the top.

Lilly:

can see a book. about a school where you're like, half of these characters are gonna die by the end, that you're like, ooh, I don't know if I'm up for that emotionally. You'll be fine.

Sara:

Well, all of the deaths are just to make it an edgy academy, so you don't care about anyone.

Lilly:

I did think it was absolutely hysterical. Every time someone dies, the narrator, which is Violet, it is in first person which is possibly part of why I couldn't take it seriously, there's a big deal made about how their names will never be said again within the school walls. And I was like, You could still talk about them after they die. In fact, several of them you do still talk about after they die. Like,

Sara:

Nope, nope. Illegal. Just, like, keeping their stuff is apparently against their religion.

Lilly:

that everyone breaks all the time because what the fuck.

Sara:

I mean, like, again, that's so impractical. Like, what if you're a poor family and, I don't know, need their shoes or something?

Lilly:

Yeah, hand me downs are a thing.

Sara:

yeah. Like, why are you, why are you burning every single one of their belongings?

Lilly:

It's extremely wasteful.

Sara:

so wasteful!

Lilly:

I loved How Violet shows up to the school and she's waiting in line for the very first, like, entry challenge. And this one guy is just like, I hate you and I am going to kill you. Just out of nowhere, absolutely no reason.

Sara:

It's, it's because he's he's the designated villain.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

He, every, every good school book needs a schoolyard antagonist.

Lilly:

Making the finger across the throat motion at the, at the hero constantly.

Sara:

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find a weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia, and they can vote occasionally on what book we will cover on the podcast. And in fact, they chose Fourth Wing for us, so thank you to all of our patrons.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Sara:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Lilly:

We probably should have said up top that this was a patron choice book.

Sara:

Yes, we probably should have, which I realized halfway through

Lilly:

Yeah, good, good catch, good cover up.

Sara:

Okay, so I have a topic for the spoiler section which is called, this is a nonsense way to run your elite military part two. We already covered part one in the non spoilers, and that is, why are you sending your two strongest enlistees off to die? Like, I get, That people don't trust Zayden because his father rebelled against the nation, but the dragons say that he's Not rebelling, and that he's doing fine, and he is your strongest, like, cadet or whatever, and Violet is your other strong Why are you sending them off to die?

Lilly:

Actually, they didn't send Violet off to die. They told Zayden he could pick his team and he chose to take Violet with him, so

Sara:

Okay, how how did they not know that he was going to pick Violet? Because Yeah. like, even if they didn't realize they were banging, which they were so unsubtle about, they did know that, that their dragons were bonded, and that they can't be far apart for a long time. Like, come on guys.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

You coulda, you coulda thought this through.

Lilly:

I mean, none of it makes sense, Sarah. They talk about how it would take, like, multiple platoons of infantry to make up for one dragonrider. But then they're just like, Oh yeah, yeah, we can kill dragonriders during training. That's fine.

Sara:

Yeah, it, I just, none of it makes sense.

Lilly:

Also, all of the murdery entry challenges are so counterintuitive because you're just testing how trained someone is in that moment. That doesn't say anything for their potential.

Sara:

Yeah, it, like, it's, it's It's ridiculous.

Lilly:

It's so silly. And oh my god, just, they, they keep talking about how the Dragon Riders are the backbone of the military, they're the only thing standing between them and their enemies, and there's fewer and fewer every year, and it's such a big deal, and it's like, Maybe stop killing the students. Maybe you'll have more of them if you stop killing them.

Sara:

I mean, I get that that wouldn't solve the issue of there being fewer dragons, but I feel it could help.

Lilly:

Maybe more dragons would be willing to bond if their human wasn't likely to get murdered by their friends after a week.

Sara:

Well, the dragons are doing just as much murdering as the students are.

Lilly:

Yeah, also doesn't make any sense. There's also this thing that was like, oh well, we have to weed out the weak because they're not going to be chosen by the dragons anyway. And it's like, well then let them just not get chosen by the dragons. If the weak ones aren't going to get chosen by the dragons, you don't need to kill them, they just won't get chosen.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

and then also, it's not true anyway. Like the idea that the more ruthless and vicious you are, the more likely a dragon will like you is clearly not true. So,

Sara:

I mean, they very, they very explicitly say when they're doing their parade in front of the dragons before anyone has been chosen like talk to each other so that the dragons can see your personality and like friendliness and stuff.

Lilly:

And the dragons roast the two most insufferable people. So like, clearly that strategy doesn't work. Why does everyone say that that's the way to do it?

Sara:

It's, if you, if you think about any of the logistics of this book for more than like two seconds, it all just starts falling apart.

Lilly:

Which is why it was so enjoyable.

Sara:

I mean, yeah, like, that's, that's fine, that,

Lilly:

Not just fine. It was A good, like, I am saying that that actively helped the book because then I wasn't all, like, stressed out about the concept of war. At no point in this book about training children to go to war was I like, Eww, war.

Sara:

I just, I just wanted a little, a little more coherence. Just a little bit.

Lilly:

I didn't mind at all. It also allowed the asshole characters to be unrepentant assholes. Oh my god, you know exactly who to dislike. And you knew that they weren't going to surprise you.

Sara:

They, they are telegraphed, except that one of them is her childhood best friend, who we are kind of supposed to like, in the sense that he is kind of part of the love triangle, and he's just a shitty human being.

Lilly:

I, okay, that might just be because you've read it before. I would say at the beginning, was on his side. At the very beginning, he's like, I'm going to sneak you out of this school so that you don't get killed.

Sara:

Yeah, okay, so, so

Lilly:

the first couple of times he does that, I was like, I understand why she's mad at you and you should read the room, but also I get where you're coming from.

Sara:

here's, here's my thing. I agree with you. Right? Like, the first time it happens, yes, he doesn't think that she wants to be there, because she doesn't really want to be there. He's worried for her, because she hasn't been training for this. It totally makes sense for him to be like, I'm gonna get you out. And then she tells him, very explicitly, I'm going to stay here. And he keeps doing it and ignoring, like, what she's saying. And just, how can you call yourself a friend when you don't listen to this person that you care about at all, and you talk down to her and condescend to her the entire time?

Lilly:

Oh yeah, no, I definitely didn't like him for very long.

Sara:

Yeah, he's, he's just a jerk.

Lilly:

If it had been played as him, like, offering her the option, I think it would have gone a long way. Because the problem is, he's always assuming, right? He never asks her, Hey, do you want to get out of this? He's like, Hey, follow me. And then halfway she's like, Where are we going? And he's like, Oh, we're leaving. And she's like, The fuck?

Sara:

Yeah, like, if he was, if he was just saying, Hey, we can leave. That's one thing, you know, still read the room, but like, that's okay. Because ultimately, you are listening and giving her the choice. But he takes so he tries to take away her agency every single time.

Lilly:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And on the read the room thing, though, It also would be fair if she changed her mind after she realized how much the murder school was truly a murder school, right? So, like, giving her multiple choices, or, like, multiple opportunities to change her mind, I think, also would have been okay. He's just so pushy.

Sara:

And, and like, if he had done it occasionally after big murder things.

Lilly:

Or right before, right before the big murder thing, which he does, like, a couple of times he's like, Hey, there's about to be this big thing. I can't help you when you're in there. You should leave before it happens. Is like, get it? But also, dude.

Sara:

Yeah, like, it's, it's just constant and condescending the way he does it. Like, there, there is a way to do it that's not that and that would be okay, but he just fails utterly and miserably at that. And then he, reads her mind without permission after explicitly telling her that he wouldn't and like fake apologizing for it. And he's just, he's just a dick.

Lilly:

Oh, he's absolutely, by the halfway point of this book, he's irredeemable. And it's kind of, like, they're childhood friends, so I get why Violet doesn't want to, like, entirely shun him. But, I don't know, she, I think she's appropriately mad at him for the most part. She's like, I know I can't trust him now. And I was like, hey, that's good.

Sara:

Yeah. Her behavior towards him, I think is fine. And I get, and I'm not complaining about that because she recognizes that he is not behaving in a way that's acceptable. It's just he continues to do it.

Lilly:

Yes. She also is really, like, done with her mother, which I appreciated. Her mom decrees that she's going to this murder school, even though she is not trained at all.

Sara:

She trained, she trained for six months. I mean, that's plenty of time, right?

Lilly:

It's just like, if you knew you were gonna force your daughter to go to this school, wouldn't you want to set her up for success? Like, what is the unless it's revealed later that her mom was just trying to get her killed to, like, I don't know, cover up a conspiracy.

Sara:

I don't remember much about book two, but I'm pretty sure that that's not the case.

Lilly:

Yeah, I don't think it is. But, but I really appreciate that she does resent her mother for that and hold it against her. And she's not like, well, maybe she means the best for me. Like, no, she's mad. And I'm like, good for you. Good boundaries.

Sara:

I do think that Violet in general has very good boundaries and is really aware of her own emotions. Like, I laugh at every time. She internally monologues about falling for Zayden because she, just the way that she uses that phrase is so silly. But also, I really respect her for telling him, no, you don't get to decide if I fall in love with you. Like, that's my decision. And she talks to him about things. And, like, that was refreshing to see in Zayden. a romance protagonist.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And at one point, she even breaks up with him. Because he's like, we can't be seri like, this isn't serious. We can't be in a relationship. We can just bang. And she's like, well then, no.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

And I was like, hell yeah. She reneges on it immediately. But, I liked that moment. I was very fresh oh.

Sara:

it, it is a romanticy novel,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

so

Lilly:

I thought that was gonna be like, okay, that way we can still have sexual tension after they've fucked. But then like, no, they just go back. I was like, okay, I'm also okay with this. I will say the conflict at the end. So it turns out Zayden is not a bad guy. Shock. He's helping the enemy country fend off basically like evil wizards that Violet's country does not acknowledge exist, but they know that they do, so, super shady.

Sara:

Which, sorry to interrupt, but I just, I have another issue with that, which is that the dragons know that this is happening. If the dragons are kind of in charge, in the sense that everyone defers to them because they are fucking dragons. Why are they not doing anything about it?

Lilly:

Maybe they are, maybe that's why they're not bonding.

Sara:

Maybe. We don't see that in this

Lilly:

No, we don't, we don't see that on the page at all. And everything else is on the page, so.

Sara:

Yeah, anyway, sorry for that interjection. I just, that bothers me.

Lilly:

Yeah, you'd think all of the dragons could just be like, Hey, student who is being lied to by your teacher, guess what?

Sara:

Yeah, like you would think that they would talk about it. Instead of just allowing it to be swept under the rug. Because the dragons are dying in this fight too!

Lilly:

Yeah, totally. And so, Zayden has that whole big secret, and that's one of the reasons why he says they can't be in a relationship, because she doesn't know the real him. Which is a really bad way to put it, Zayden, by the way. Like, say you have a specific secret, don't just be mysterious about it.

Sara:

I mean, if he had done that, maybe it wouldn't have come back to bite him in the ass.

Lilly:

right? Because she's like, I know you well enough to know that I love you, which, It's fair because he, from as far as we know, he wasn't lying to her about his personality, right? He was lying to her about very relevant national security facts.

Sara:

yeah, he, he just had this one secret about what he was doing, but everything else about him was genuine.

Lilly:

Yeah, so she's like, I want to be with you anyway, and he was like, okay, and then they bang all night, and then they get like immediately summoned to this thing, and then sent off to the mountains. And then she finds out about the secret, the big secret evil wizards, in like, immediately, right? There's no time in between any of those events. And then she finds out and she's like, You lied to me! And he was like, Yeah. She's like, How could you? We were together! I thought you loved We're not He specifically never said he loved her. She's like, I thought you cared about me. And I'm like,

Sara:

I fell for

Lilly:

when? Ma'am, when was he going to tell you? Like, from when you guys got back together, you have not stopped fucking or running for your lives.

Sara:

There's not really a lot of time for conversation unless it's mental flirting.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

Which, they do a lot of mental foreplay.

Lilly:

so much. They also talk during sex a lot. Oh my gosh, there was the line that is in every over the top fanfiction, and I was like, I almost, I almost squealed out loud when it showed up in this book. But the, like, oh god, who are you praying to? Who no one else is here but me? Yeah, you. Oh, thank you for the, like the, not upgrade.

Sara:

Upgrade was gonna be the word that I used.

Lilly:

Yeah, every word in the English language has left my brain. What's the word? When you're at a job, and then you're given a better job, but buyer's the same boss. N

Sara:

Promotion.

Lilly:

Promotion. Thank you. Oh, but just, that's like the most cliché dirty talk, and it was delightful. There were two things that I did not call in this book. One was, at the very beginning, We're introduced to those greedy poromeal raiding parties who just aren't happy with the resources that they have. And my note was, I wonder if this is going to be twisted or subverted at all. And it was! It turns out that they're only raiding for the supplies that they need to fight the big evil wizards. Which, I guess that means I did call it then,

Sara:

That that does in fact mean that you called it.

Lilly:

never mind. Okay, the thing I actually did not expect was that Violet's brother was still alive. That gets revealed at the very end.

Sara:

Yeah, that was the one thing that that I didn't call the first time. And rereading, I do see where she kind of, where Yarrows kind of, sets that up because she talks about how Taryn's previous writer, who was a healer died trying to heal Brennan. And Violet has some kind of moment where she wonders, like, why the healer tried so hard to the point of burning out or death or whatever if Brennan was, like, definitely dead.

Lilly:

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't even, well, obviously I didn't catch that.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

But yeah.

Sara:

So, that is something that I saw in the reread. But I think that's the only thing in the reread that was new to me, in the sense that everything else is just on the page, baby.

Lilly:

Oh yeah, I mean there's even a time when Jack Barlow, the big meanie bully, is like, Oh, that dragon's a wimp and should be put down. We shouldn't have, like, small wimps in this school. And then he looks at Violet, and then Violet's internal monologue is like, I don't think he's just talking about the dragon. And I was like, thank you. Thank you, darling, for explaining that to me. I don't think I would have gotten it otherwise. Uh.

Sara:

So there is one death in this book that is not a gratuitous, edgy, academy death, and that's Liam, and his is the only death that genuinely makes me sad, because his is the only death that feels plot relevant.

Lilly:

He also is actually given time. Actually, I thought his death scene was a little too long. But,

Sara:

Yes, yes, the death scene does kind of extend, but like, he, We get to know him as a character, and we, we get, for some of the other deaths, specifically the guy at the beginning who falls off the parapet, and then O'Reilly, or whatever her name was, who falls during the gauntlet, like, we get told stuff that is supposed to make us sad, but because we get told all of that, like, You know, two paragraphs before they actually die, it's hard to actually feel impacted by their death, whereas with Liam, we spend a whole bunch of page time getting to know him, and so his death feels sadder.

Lilly:

yeah, I really liked Liam.

Sara:

He was

Lilly:

was probably my favorite character. And there were definitely a few times where I was like, I don't know, maybe this should have been the love triangle. Hey, Violet. But she didn't listen to me for some reason.

Sara:

Nope.

Lilly:

Yeah, he was really well done, and I actually, I like that they are never romantically involved because it just makes their friendship so much more sincere.

Sara:

I mean, we should see more. Male female friendships on the page, because they exist, men and women can be friends without there being a romantic component to it.

Lilly:

And just because I liked Liam doesn't mean she has to.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, like, fine, fanfic it all you want, I don't care. But,

Lilly:

But it's also nice to see on the page,

Sara:

yeah, yeah. Like, I would read, I would read Violet Liam fanfiction, sure. But I do think that it's really nice to just see two people being friends.

Lilly:

And he was a good friend.

Sara:

He was.

Lilly:

And Like, we learn about his backstory, and yeah. I quite liked him, and then when he was dying I was like, oh no.

Sara:

honestly, I kind of think that he's the most fleshed out character. One of the most fleshed out characters, anyway.

Lilly:

Probably.

Sara:

Just so that our heart wrenches even more when he dies.

Lilly:

I mean, Violet and Zayden are fleshed out but they're also the main characters, so that feels like a silly thing to say.

Sara:

He's a lot more fleshed out than our best friend.

Lilly:

Yeah, he definitely, I felt, I felt more for him than I did Rhiannon. Why did you think of Riddock? Riddick?

Sara:

I like him. I mean,

Lilly:

liked him for the most part. I thought some of his tomfoolery was misplaced, but I guess that was the point. Is that he?

Sara:

I'm, I'm pretty sure that was the point. Yeah. Like, I, I don't think that we see him enough for me to have any feelings beyond just like vague fondness.

Lilly:

fair.

Sara:

Like, I I don't, I don't think we see any of her squad enough for me to have any feelings for them beyond vague fondness. Except maybe for Liam and maybe Rhi, her best friend.

Lilly:

yeah. There is also, oh gosh, what was her name? The girl who trains her.

Sara:

Imogene?

Lilly:

Imogene, yeah. Much to Imogene's distress. I quite liked her, but she was a very minor character, comparatively.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I don't think she's particularly fleshed out in book one.

Lilly:

I like that it felt pretty genuine, the way she went from resenting Violet to Or at least being

Sara:

Tolerating her?

Lilly:

Yeah, trusting her, we can say.

Sara:

yeah

Lilly:

that, I thought that relationship change felt appropriate. Very natural. Cause like, yeah, Of course Imogene hates what Violet represents. She represents the Not just the nation, but the actual woman who murdered all of their parents. But then, they get to know each other and it's like, hey, they're actually people. So, that was nice.

Sara:

yeah, I would agree. And I think part of that also has to do with Violet's realization that, hey, these are people as well.

Lilly:

That

Sara:

it's not just, it's not just one sided,

Lilly:

Oh yeah, for sure. I feel like she came to that realization before Imogene, at least. Well, mostly cause she wanted to bang Zayden, which, fair.

Sara:

And also, we see, we see this whole book through her perspective. We don't, we don't really know what Imogene is feeling.

Lilly:

true. I did think it was very cute in the trailer. Like, not Independence Day celebration, but the like, end of the rebellion celebration, when all of the military leaders are being really shitty towards Liam specifically, but any of the children of the rebellion. And Violet just gets so huffy, and like, stands up for Liam, but not in a way that's going to make trouble for Liam.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

that was actually very well done. Like, she made it clear that she, like, was friends with him and trusted him, but didn't, like, do something crazy that was just gonna make more issues down the line.

Sara:

well, it also was nice to see her because for her that day is first and foremost the day that her brother died. And so she's not thinking about shitty of a day it is for any of the people on the, any of the children on the opposite side of, of this fighting. And so seeing her realize that and just try to be extra nice to them was nice.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

Like, she's not a bad friend.

Lilly:

no, I liked Violet. She was a Mary Sue, but in a likable way. I

Sara:

She's an enjoyable main character. I don't know if I would go so far as to say I like her, but she's an enjoyable main character.

Lilly:

could see myself being friends with her, if we use that definition of like.

Sara:

Yeah, I'm not sure if I could do that, really, but I'd like I don't think, if we were in the same universe, I would hate her. So,

Lilly:

If you guys were on the same study group, you wouldn't be like, ah, fuck.

Sara:

yeah, probably not.

Lilly:

Well, that's, you know, what more can you ask for?

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on Blue Sky Instagram and TikTok at FictionFansPod, also the other one. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and vote on which books we'll read, like Fourth Wing.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!