Fiction Fans

Sleeping Worlds Have No Memory by Yaroslav Barsukov

• Episode 165

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Your hosts read Sleeping Worlds Have No Memory by Yaroslav Barsukov (and get a little distracted argreeing [that's arguing and agreeing at the same time] over how it's different from Kushiel's Dart). They discuss political plotlines in SFF, both relatable and antagonistic characters, and assign an exact genre-percentage-breakout between Fantasy, SciFi, and Horror.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

and I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

and tonight we'll be discussing Sleeping Worlds Have No Memory by Yaroslav Barsikov. But first, a quick little five minute intro. Warm up, if you will. Sarah, what's something great that happened recently? Because there's always something good that happened, no matter what else also happened.

Sara:

Well, I was hoping to have political things to say here, but I don't. So my good thing instead is that Mr. Squeak went in for a dental cleaning and extraction, and it turned out she didn't need any teeth extracted. Which is great. She does have gingival hyperplasia, so she does need surgery to push her gums off of her teeth, but that's in the future. She didn't need anything done besides the dental cleaning this week. I'll take it.

Lilly:

thing, yeah, we'll take it.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I had falafel yesterday, and

Sara:

Also a good thing.

Lilly:

I mean, we ordered Greek food and there was gyrosalad involved, but yeah, I haven't had falafel in a long time. And obviously tzatziki sauce is like the best thing on the face of the planet. So, I'm happy and content.

Sara:

Yeah, that sounds lovely.

Lilly:

What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

It has been a week, and it is basically just a day. All of that to say, I have been drinking whiskey since noon.

Lilly:

I am with you in spirit.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

I have not been drinking whiskey today. But yeah, I get it.

Sara:

yeah. So, I've been drinking whiskey since noon.

Lilly:

All right. I am drinking Ti Kwan Yin, which is an oolong tea. And it has, oh, I'm not gonna, I should have gotten the exact quote from the book. But I will approximate it. And it has so much sugar, it might be contraband.

Sara:

Sometimes it astounds me that we're related, and this is one of those times.

Lilly:

No, I mean, well, yes, but that was one of the lines in the book.

Sara:

I know, I know that, and I was as horrified then as I am now.

Lilly:

I mean, I didn't actually put that much sugar in it, but I did put sugar in it.

Sara:

I'm still horrified.

Lilly:

You're so weird about tea. There is no culture that's like, you can't do anything to tea.

Sara:

I

Lilly:

It's just you. It's only

Sara:

sure, I'm not, I'm not trying to say that, that I am like representative of tea drinking culture or anything. It is just me. I just don't like stuff in my tea.

Lilly:

Right. But you're horrified when other people drink tea in a way you don't like,

Sara:

Sure.

Lilly:

Like, you're not horrified when I eat dark chocolate.

Sara:

No, it's true.

Lilly:

How dare I consume something in a way you don't prefer.

Sara:

Because I don't know, I think it's, I think it's that dark chocolate in and of itself I don't like, but tea in and of itself I do like. So you are adding things to it. To make it prepared. in a way that I would not drink.

Lilly:

I'm not putting sugar in your tea.

Sara:

No. I don't know. I'm not saying that it's rational.

Lilly:

Anyway my very good on theme beverage choice aside,

Sara:

It is on theme.

Lilly:

Yes it is! Have you read anything good lately?

Sara:

I have not I've read maybe one page of Long Live Evil by Sarah Reese Brennan. Which is not enough because I just got a notification saying that my rental from the library was going to be due in a couple of days. So I need to get on that. It,

Lilly:

I have not, but I did read Sleeping Worlds Have No Memory. I have to say, from the very top, I really loved this book. Which, I say in a surprised tone, because I'm usually very outspoken for my distaste with politic plotlines in books. I think Kushiel's Dart is a really good example of a book that I was just like, could not give less of a fuck about. Or at least, those, that, that plot. in that book. Because clearly I give a fuck because I'm so mad about it, but you know what I mean.

Sara:

it didn't do it for you. Yeah, so, I was the one who proposed that we read this book for the podcast and When you said that you were loving it, I'm not gonna lie, I was a little surprised. Delighted, but also a little surprised. That was not the response that I was genuinely expecting. I

Lilly:

I think the difference is, this book really focuses on the people and so it's, it's politics and then decisions that the main character Ashcroft are making does affect things at a, not global scale, we're really only dealing with like two countries and three different groups of people, but they are, they are like, war or peace level decisions,

Sara:

mean, there, there are political ramifications to everything he does.

Lilly:

yes, and he's not the only character doing politics, quote unquote, in this book. But a lot of it is at a scale where it's like him and one other person, him trying to outmaneuver the person in front of him, him having to make a decision and deal with the outcome of his decision, even when it wasn't necessarily what he intended or had effects that he didn't know about. But it's always, like, very personal, even though the politics are on a larger scale.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, so just from that description of it, it honestly doesn't sound that different from Kushiel's Dart, because a lot of what Phaedra deals with is trying to counter Melisande's like, manipulations. But that being said, I agree that that whole series has a much more like, broader view of What's going on, whereas I think this book is very firmly focused on Ashcroft and is very tightly focused on, on him as well.

Lilly:

I think the problem I had with Kushiel's Dart is it was a lot of recounting things that had happened. or that they had heard about. We don't actually see any of the political machinations, we just hear about them afterwards. And it's I don't, the main character and then her compatriot for a while before he dies them talking back and forth about the things they had learned and what it might mean. And I was like, show me! them learning it. Don't just be like, here's a really weird sex scene. Oh, also at one point during that, she figured out these details. Like, not compelling for me. Anyway, I think this is a great example of the fact that I don't hate politics in books. I'm just very particular about it. And goddamn did Sleeping Worlds Have No Memory do it for me.

Sara:

I think, I think you can still say that you hate politics in books, it's just that this was the exception. Yeah,

Lilly:

It's just the perfect example of the kind of machinations I enjoy reading about.

Sara:

it is, I mean, for all that I'm arguing that, uh, True Shields Dart is a very good book. This is also a very good book, like, to be clear.

Lilly:

Well, yeah, you didn't say this wasn't a good book. You were lying about Kushiel's dart.

Sara:

I'm not lying, you're just biased. Or we're both biased and the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

Lilly:

Well, if we're being honest, you must also be very biased about this book because of the pug.

Sara:

It's true. Okay, in my defense. Well, not in my defense.

Lilly:

You don't have to

Sara:

I don't have

Lilly:

pug in this book and it's great.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't have to defend myself. I, so this book was originally published or the first half of this book was originally published as a novella, Tower of Mud and Straw, which I read as a novella and enjoyed, and that has no pug in it. So when we got to the second half of this book, which started basically the new stuff for me, and there was the pug, I was like, oh, there's a pug, I like it even more. And.

Lilly:

surprise for you.

Sara:

It was a delightful surprise. And it's not just that, there's a pug mentioned once, like this pug is throughout the entire second half of the book and plays an integral part and feels like a pug. It's not just like any old dog.

Lilly:

Oh no, I thought the descriptions were, like, spot on.

Sara:

yeah, as as a pug owner, I was like, yes, this is a pug. I am here for it.

Lilly:

A plot relevant pug, if you will.

Sara:

Yes, so that, that made me very happy. And yes, it does bias me entirely.

Lilly:

I really liked Ashcroft, the main character. He is such a good guy. But not in a cheesy way. Like He is just a person. Oh, I mean a very important person. He's the minister of internal affairs or something. Like, he has a very high status at the beginning of this book. No spoilers.

Sara:

Well, he, he had a high status at the beginning of this book. When the book starts out, he has lost his place in court, basically.

Lilly:

Like, the very first scene is him getting his new position. Like, his demotion, basically. Because he Avoids, like, a massacre of a protest. And he gets in trouble for that. And I think that's such a perfect character introduction for him. Because he's trying to do the right thing that he sees as the right thing. And there's almost always consequences he doesn't see, but how could he have? He's just a person. He only has the knowledge that he has. And he's always making the best choice that he can. And I really liked him. And He has flaws. He's not like a perfect little goody two shoes. He's not frustrating. He's just genuine, and I really enjoyed reading his plot.

Sara:

He's got a lot of flaws. I agree that he's genuine. I found myself really frustrated with him in, specifically in the first half of this, of the book, which again is an issue that I had with him in the novella because the novella is, as far as I could tell, basically identical to the first half of the book. where he goes kind of back and forth about his decisions. be clear, I thought it was an understandable like character choice. I just got annoyed with it.

Lilly:

I didn't at all, actually. I think because he's not just waffling back and forth. He's getting huge, crucial pieces of new information. And he is pivoting, and yes, that does mean in the end he is going back and forth on a lot. Kind of very important decision. But there's a reason for each of his changes of mind.

Sara:

there is, and it made sense from a character standpoint, and I, I understood where he was coming from. And I understood why he was changing his mind, but also I was like, my God, dude, just, just make up your mind about you want, about what you want to do for this tower.

Lilly:

Wouldn't that be awful, though? If he was like, Nope, I already made my decision, so I don't care if I just found out I might actually destroy reality. I'm gonna keep doing it anyway. Like, I really respect that he was willing to reassess and drastically change his stance and be, like, really open and honest about that. With the people he could afford to be open and honest with, because, dang, were there a lot of bad guys. Which I mean, yes, in the antagonist way, but also just dudes who sucked.

Sara:

Yes, I mean, again, it like it, it made sense. And I liked it in the context of the second half of the book which for me really brought everything together in a way that worked for me. And not just because of the pug. Sure.

Lilly:

for the spoiler section, because I am so curious to about that, but I can't ask you any questions right now because they're plot specific. about the second half of the book.

Sara:

Sure. We can, we can hold off on that.

Lilly:

The beginning of this book, however, had some really excellent hooks. And I think that was the point where I texted you. I was only like 5 percent in or 8 percent in or something. I had just started. And he had started doing his politicking with the the city he had been sort of exiled to. Not exactly exiled, but demoted to

Sara:

Owensburg.

Lilly:

Owensburg. I don't know why I can ever remember that. Anyway, thank you. And. There were just a couple of really excellent hooks, not, not mystery per se, but there were lines from a couple character point of views, points of view, that one that were so clearly hinting at something huge. And sometimes that can really bother me because it feels arbitrary, but I think the way those characters were thinking about it fit in with an internal narrative. Because you don't sit there and think, ah yes, my sister Lina, who I lost when I was this many years old, and I haven't seen since, blah, you know. Like, when you're thinking to yourself, you just go, oh yeah, Lina. So those little mysteries really worked for me, and I was just like, on the edge of my seat, so ready to read this book. And I did, and it was good. And I think you're, you're gonna know from like the first couple pages that this is the book for you and it, I'm just gonna say it probably is because it's really good and everyone's gonna like it. That's not true. You mentioned that you think that there's some horror vibes.

Sara:

I do think that there's some horror vibes. So, it is mostly, Like a very fun, I'd say Blurred Boundaries mostly fantasy, but there's some science fiction aspects to it. There's also, for me personally as a non horror reader, there were, there was a bit of horror to it. And I don't want to go into detail because I do think that it is spoilery for the back half of the book. And four kind of important plot points to the book. But there were times when I was like, Is, is this horror? Is this kind of cosmic horror? I think it's, I think it's getting there for me.

Lilly:

I agree with you 100 percent actually. Those moments in the book reminded me so much of The Scarlet Gospels by Clive Barker which is The sequel to The Hellbound Heart, which is what Hellraiser was based on and I also can't say any more than that. But, like, the descriptions! Like, the settings! were so reminiscent of the visuals in that book. Not in a derivative way at all but just in the way it made me feel as a reader. Like, it did a very good job of making you feel unsettled

Sara:

Yes, I would agree with that. Yes, I would, I would agree with that 100%. And, I mean, even as a non horror person, I think this worked really well, because the horror was not, Yes, we, we were supposed to be horrified by some of the stuff, but that was not the forefront of the setting. And so it was just this kind of little extra, you know, candy. And so it, it worked really well to just add that sense of dread to the setting and the, things that were going on.

Lilly:

absolutely. I did discover when I was trying to describe this book that I probably have the incorrect internal definition of Gaslamp Fantasy. Because I bet, if I think about it for two goddamn seconds, the definition of gas lamp fantasy probably has to do with gas lamps and not airships, which is what my head is at.

Sara:

I can see where you're getting at though.

Lilly:

There were some very fun airships. This book, to me, feels fantasy, but there are definitely some things brushes with science fiction. The Drakiri, I think is the way to pronounce that name for the group of people, are,

Sara:

how I pronounce it.

Lilly:

okay, I didn't see it in front of me, so I was going off memory, and that's always a little touch and go. They're a group of people who are more technologically advanced than the the two main civilizations we're dealing with in this story, and so there's some Drakiri technology that. has some shenanigans going on. And so I could see that argument for sci fi. I think It feels more sci fi, but again, I'm weird about science fiction. With the ending, but

Sara:

Well, so, so this is my argument for it being blurred boundary. And Really, what it reminds me of is The Siege of Burning Grass by Premium Mohammed. In the way that I would say it is,

Lilly:

The genre, that is,

Sara:

yeah, the genre, not the plot or anything else, but like the genre. I'd say it's like 75 percent fantasy. 24 percent sci fi, 1 percent horror.

Lilly:

I would bump that up to 5 percent horror.

Sara:

Okay, I'd be willing to agree with you there, but I do think that it's, it is a predominantly fantasy setting, but there are some significant elements of science fiction And other genres, like horror, in it,

Lilly:

Mhmm.

Sara:

And so you can't really, it's hard to categorize, right? Like it's, it's not immediately fantasy and not immediately science fiction.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, I'm okay with that. I think it's If you said like, oh, this is fantasy, someone going into it wouldn't be like, what is wrong with you? But yes, if we were trying to be the most accurate, I would agree. So I need to ask you so many questions about this novella, but first, who should read this book?

Sara:

So you should read this book. I think if you want a political intrigue story that focuses, that, that really laser focuses on the people involved and not necessarily the wider Like, country implications of things that are going on.

Lilly:

See, but that implies that there's not like, this country might go to war with that country based on people's individual decisions.

Sara:

don't think that's true. I mean, I, I think, I don't think that they're necessarily You get one without the other.

Lilly:

Okay,

Sara:

I just think that, that this is more talking about the individual than the countrywide implications.

Lilly:

I guess

Sara:

not that the implications countrywide aren't there.

Lilly:

we're just, yeah, seeing the people's actions that lead to those. ramifications. I think the only reason why I have to argue that point is that there's also like interpersonal politics is a thing where it's not, you know, the decision that this one individual makes will affect a country. It's, you know, like, like workplace politics and that kind of shit. So if you say it doesn't affect countries, it makes me think of that instead,

Sara:

No, I, I don't, I don't mean, and I don't mean to say that at all

Lilly:

which is why I had to

Sara:

yeah, yeah, it does, it does affect countries, but I think that this story focuses very much on the individual rather than on the countrywide ramifications.

Lilly:

Yes. Okay, I, I, now I'm okay with this.

Sara:

yes. And also, if you want pugs in, in your fantasy, this is gonna give that to you. The back half of this book is, like, directly speaking to the pug lover, and I am here for it.

Lilly:

If you also want a really well developed SFF leaning fantasy SFF fantasy Fantasy setting.

Sara:

How many times can you imply fantasy in that word? In that, in that phrase?

Lilly:

could do it some more. But that also is very contemplative, and I would say at the end really leaves you thinking.

Sara:

Yeah, absolutely. It's just, it's a good book.

Lilly:

It was a really good book, I agree. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Sara:

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they get free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers okay, where exactly did the novella end? I need to know.

Sara:

Okay, so the novella ended where you would expect it to end, which is

Lilly:

After the first tower is destroyed.

Sara:

after the first tower is destroyed. I I don't think that, so, if you look at the table of contents there is an intermission, the man with all of the gifts, and I don't think that that was included in the original novella that I read. Like I, I think that what I read was book one Tower of Mud and Straw, through part four, The Tower.

Lilly:

Cool.

Sara:

And so everything else after that was new for me.

Lilly:

It's so interesting to publish this. As a novel, instead of releasing a second novella and having a duology slash comp, I don't know, that's, it's interesting,

Sara:

It, it,

Lilly:

think I have anywhere to go with that.

Sara:

it's an, it's an interesting choice. I'm not sure that I have anything, anywhere to go with that either. But I do think that it works better as a whole than it did as a novella. I mean, I enjoyed the novella, but I had a lot of questions coming out of it. And I was also very frustrated with Ashcroft. in a way that I was not frustrated with him at the end of the book as a whole because as we've talked about a little bit, he spends a lot of the first half of this book, which is basically the, that original novella changing his mind due to understandable, like, new information, but still he spends a lot of that time changing his mind. And so for me, I really appreciated the back half of the book. seeing him solidify his decisions and stand by them,

Lilly:

Mm

Sara:

which is not something that I got from the first novella.

Lilly:

Well, he does always accept responsibility for his decisions.

Sara:

he, he does. It's true. But, but he's always, I mean, he's still changing his mind.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

And I found that very frustrating. I don't know. I

Lilly:

I just,

Sara:

I wanted him to be consistent, and he, he was understandably not consistent until, like, we got to a point in the story.

Lilly:

to be fair, someone told him, Hey, there's this fairy tale that says if you finish building this tower, it's gonna destroy the world. And he's like, Ha! Okay, sure. Which is reasonable.

Sara:

Yeah, but, but then he kind of, like, is like, oh yeah, you were right, and then he changes his mind, and then he's like, oh yeah, you were right.

Lilly:

Well, he doesn't want to destroy the tower. He first wants to get rid of the technology that is the only reason why the tower is working as intended. And he doesn't care that that results in destroying the tower. Because to him, safety is more important. And I was like, hey, good guy. He then finds out that that means it's going the entire tower is going to collapse. And he's like, Welp, that's on me. And then he agrees to help keep the tower going, and then when he finds out that the myth about the tower bringing about the apocalypse was actually true, because he sees the sort of alternate dimension that building the tower connects the world to, he's like, oh fuck. Which is also reasonable.

Sara:

It is. I, I just, he, he went back and forth and it frustrated me.

Lilly:

It's just, I Discovering that there is an alternate dimension that will destroy yours feels like such key information. I'm very okay with him changing his mind about it or because of it.

Sara:

I don't know. It for me, it felt like, yes, that was very important information. And it is understandable that he changes his mind because of that. But for me, it felt like he was changing his mind A lot of the times because of the people that he liked and how they viewed the tower, and not necessarily because of what he himself thought.

Lilly:

Oh, I didn't get that impression at all. Interesting.

Sara:

Yeah. So, like, I was a little frustrated, and then when he finally, like, makes a decision and sticks to it, I was like, yes, thank you. And I was on board with with him. Going forward, because he, by that point, he, it felt like he had convictions.

Lilly:

Well, he has discovered that there is a real alternative dimension that is going to destroy the world.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Which is some key information. I cannot belabor that point enough. Speaking of whoever he likes most at the time, he has a relationship with a woman named Lena. Who is not his sister. He also has a sister named Lina. I kind of loved that. It's such a minor detail that ends up being some complicated shit for him in such a regular person way. Like, that's not She's not the secret reincarnation. There is no reason for them to have the same name except for, yeah, people have the same name sometimes.

Sara:

Yeah, they, they just have the same name. I, I really liked it. I was really sad when she dies. I mean His sister, Lena, has died a long time ago, but his new love, Lena, dies too, and I was really sad about that, and I was not expecting that when I first read the story,

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

it just kind of happens and that's something that actually I really enjoy. Like, not that I wanted her dead.

Lilly:

Mm

Sara:

She was fine. But, I, I liked that sometimes bad shit just happens. And it has nothing to do with the, or it doesn't have much to do with the plot or anything. That's just how the world works out.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean it kind of has to do with the plot.

Sara:

It, it does, it does, but also it felt like it could just have happened.

Lilly:

True. She was kind of maybe cheating on the Duke with Ashcroft? That's really never made clear.

Sara:

She was probably cheating on the Duke with Ashcroft.

Lilly:

yeah, everyone assumes the Duke keeps her around because they're sleeping together. And so, the idea that the Duke would enact revenge or want some kind of revenge when he finds out is, like, very reasonable. And definitely could have happened, even if it hadn't come out, that she was actually the saboteur, the original saboteur of the Tower. Because she had some crazy idea that I was going to destroy the world, and she was right. I think, yeah. If, it felt a little, well it felt very sudden to me. When she leaps from the castle to prevent the duke from getting his hands on her, basically. And I was a little upset by it, because I was like, oh shit, we're just killing her? Okay. But,

Sara:

That's not what kills her. No, her, her leaping from the castle is not what kills her, because she's fine from that, and then she, like, she gets pushed from the tower, and that's what kills her. Immediately afterwards.

Lilly:

oh yeah, it's still fall damage.

Sara:

It is still fall damage, it's true.

Lilly:

And it's like, immediately, the same scene. I guess I wanted to clarify that it is not the duke that does actually kill her, even though she is, and kind of is, eh, whatever. It felt, I mean, you're right, in real life, yeah, sometimes bad things just happen, but in a book, I was like, really, that's it? Come on. however, the rest of the book continues to kind of explore her as a character, and we learn more about her through some journal excerpts, and Ashcroft's say relationship with her, because she's dead, but his opinion of her continues to develop and change over the rest of the novel, so it doesn't really feel like she's gone, even though she has passed away, and so that ended up making me not feel like the character was hard done by.

Sara:

Yeah, and I agree with you. I think the fact that she is still very much a presence in the latter half of the book makes it worth it. And makes Yeah, narratively.

Lilly:

would say, not worth it.

Sara:

Yeah, narratively makes it worth it. Like, it makes it feel like book is not just killing her off for the sake of killing off the love interest, right? Like, it actually has a point and there's a purpose to it. And so it is, I do feel like it. is worth it, narratively.

Lilly:

yes, I agree. And that kind of makes me, I don't want to say angry at the novella I haven't read. But

Sara:

the novella, literally the novella is just the first half of this book.

Lilly:

yeah, and I don't think I would have liked it nearly as much if it ended where the novella ends.

Sara:

Yeah, I, and I agree with that. Like I, I do think I enjoyed the novella, but I liked this book a lot more because we do get that context of the second half of of the book. Like, I think it, it works a lot better.

Lilly:

and Brielle, the engineer for the tower who ends up getting stuck in the hell dimension. All we really see of her in the first half is, she's the engineer, she made a mistake, and the tower's not structurally sound, and so she is just dead set on covering that up. And I did not like her that much in the first half. But then we

Sara:

that sympathetic in the first half.

Lilly:

no! She's like, I don't care how many people die, I'm building my fucking tower! I don't care if it's gonna start a war, I'm building my tower! Which I mean, she's very consistent, unlike Ashcroft. But she, like, she's almost an antagonist. we're clearly meant to identify with her because we get some scenes from her perspective at the very beginning. And that was one of the ones that really intrigued me, actually. She's like, no one can find out. And I was like, no one can find out what? I can't wait to find out myself. So I was like, okay, like something's going to happen with her, right? She's not just going to be like this, right? And indeed, she was not.

Sara:

She was not. And I, I really, really enjoyed seeing what it was like for her in this hell dimension because she gets trapped there and see her kind of struggle to survive and, and explore what is there in this Mimic Tower, although maybe it's the original tower. And I think really it is her story where the horror kicks in.

Lilly:

Oh, abs Well, definitely in the, the setting and the descriptions and stuff. The, the part that is upsetting, well, other than like, you know, people wanting to go to war for no reason, that's also upsetting, but for different reasons. That, the, those sections, the description of the Hell Dimension has reminded me so much in tone of Clive Barker's description of, Hell? Like, also a hell dimension. Just in the way that it is. An author who can freak me out with a setting is doing a really incredible thing, you know? Like, it's so easy to say like, oh, this person's doing such bad stuff, or like, you know, this person's getting so hurt, let's talk about it a lot. Those are, it's very easy to empathize with a person, like a human character, you know? But, just, to imagine a place, and not its effect on people necessarily, just the place itself. And have that be upsetting? It's very cool. It's a very hard thing to do.

Sara:

I think it may be harder for you, may be harder to have that effect on you than it is for me. Which I, I don't say to detract from what Barsokov has done in this book. Because I, I do think that, That is a, like, a very impressive thing that he does in this book. And it does have an effect on me as well.

Lilly:

You just have a different horror barometer. It's

Sara:

I, I just, I just think it's easier to do for me than it is for you. Yeah.

Lilly:

think my favorite thing about this book was how many mirrors it had in it. And not like, you know, an actual mirror. But we hear the myth of the mirror tower and how the Draciri long, long ago also built a stupid high tower. And by building it, accidentally summoned this other one, and it was really bad. And that's basically the long and short of what we find out. And so there's obviously the Mirror Tower. There is the main country, oh, the Owensburg Tower. Although Owensburg is the city it's in, but what is the name of the country they're in? Great question!

Sara:

That is an excellent question.

Lilly:

And then how Duma, their rival country, is also making a tower mimicking them. Like, directly mimicking them, because they're like, Well, if you're gonna build a tower, we're gonna build one, too. Just like, warmongering pissing contest. But, I think the aspect that I liked the most was mirroring. Where, Ashcroft is looking for a Drakiri woman who actually knows what happened with the first mirror tower. And as he is going through this process of trying to find her, he's also reading Lina's journal entries about trying to find her, which she leaves for him so that he can try to fix things. And that mirroring of their two journeys, just in the narrative, I thought was really nicely done. And added an extra dimension to, okay, it's not just a lot of towers copying each other. There's also, there's also some metaphorical mirroring going on which I thought was a very nice extra element.

Sara:

Well, I think what makes this book so good is, is all of the personal aspects of it. In that we, we do see that personal mirroring of both Lena's journey and Ashcroft's journey to find an explanation for these towers. We see their journeys. It's just to figure out what's going on we see Ashcroft trying to figure out how he can right all of these wrongs that he has had a hand in, whether intentionally or unintentionally it is a very personal story.

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

It has wide ranging consequences, but it, it's not, like that's not the focus of it. It's very tightly focused on Ashcroft and how he affects things.

Lilly:

Yes, absolutely. I did not see the twist coming. Can I call it? I think it's a twist. The reveal, maybe I should say. The whole reality is a projection thing.

Sara:

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't see that coming either.

Lilly:

yeah, to me that's really what pushes the science fiction aspect up to like 20%. Dracary

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

antigravity technology. Neat, but they're practically used like magic wands, so I don't know if that

Sara:

Still science fantasy.

Lilly:

Barely but This whole conversation at the end where, you know, the Dracuri were originally from the mirror world, which means our world is actually the mirror world, except what, what's the original mirror is a whole conversation in the book. There's a lot, there's a lot that comes

Sara:

good. It's just good.

Lilly:

it starts as this okay, you know, this guy gets demoted and he has to reprove himself and also not lose his morals along the way in this kind of neat fantasy setting. Okay, cool. And then as he is going farther and farther on this journey, you are learning more about the sort of magical aspects of this world and how much is going on behind the scenes. Literally behind the scenes.

Sara:

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of nuance in this book which is not necessarily something that I got from Just reading it in the context of the first novella.

Lilly:

Cause you don't have any of that in

Sara:

Yeah! So, so, I think it works so much better as a whole. Like, and again, I enjoyed the novella. But I think it works so much better as a whole than it does as a discrete part.

Lilly:

You're right. And I am now wrapped around to it was the right decision to republish it as a novel. Because I think if I had just read the first half, and then was told, there's a sequel, I don't know if I would have picked it up.

Sara:

Yeah. I, I absolutely think that it was the right decision

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

Do it as, as one part.

Lilly:

Yeah. I was

Sara:

I don't, yeah.

Lilly:

Like, there's no other way.

Sara:

Yeah. Like I, I don't know what went into that decision. I, I have no idea, but I think it was, it was the right choice.

Lilly:

100%. It completely changes the, not the tone of the first half, but thinking, reflecting on the first half, reflecting on the first half, it completely changes my interpretation of it and how I interact with those plot points.

Sara:

Yeah, it, it really does affect how you view everything that happens, and I think that some of my ambivalence towards Ashcroft has to do with having read that first novella as a novella, as a discrete piece. Right? Like, like, not having the context of the second half of the book because that was all that there was at the time.

Lilly:

And you're going to form finished opinions about those things because you're like, that's the whole thing. It's done.

Sara:

Right.

Lilly:

Whereas when I got to that point, I was like, all right, well, that's what's happened so far. Mm

Sara:

Yeah, and when, when I read that, I didn't know that there was going to be more. So, like, I was reading that as a finished piece. And again, it's a good, enjoyable piece, just as it is, but it's so much more when you put it within the context of the entire novel.

Lilly:

I mean, there's a talking pug!

Sara:

There is a talking pug! Well, the pug doesn't talk until the very end, but there's a pug, and he does talk eventually.

Lilly:

Oh my gosh, the, oh

Sara:

say mama.

Lilly:

yeah, the like, delightful whimsy of the world being saved because a dog learned how to talk. is just such a tone shift from the rest of the events of the book, but it works so perfectly.

Sara:

Not just a dog, a pug.

Lilly:

A pug, yes.

Sara:

pug who learns how to talk.

Lilly:

And, well, the pug doesn't learn how to talk. Ashcroft wishes into existence that dogs know how to talk,

Sara:

Yes, that's true. That's true.

Lilly:

Because he has learned that our world is just a projection and because of something going on, it's not quite clear, and I'm honestly perfectly okay with that. But something about the Duma Tower and the Hell Tower. Both being manifest in our world. I guess I say our world, Ashcroft's world. The reality, the quote unquote reality of this story allows him to manipulate that projection in a way, I was just like,

Sara:

It's, it's, it's a little deus ex machina, but not in a way that bothers me. Like he can't, he can't do it again. But also I totally can believe that it was a one time thing. You You know?

Lilly:

yeah, because also both dimensions are not existing concurrently anymore.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

So, like, I'm totally okay with that being the explanation in some way.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And it is such a, there is so much buildup to it from, A, the Queen Mother's, sort of emotional reliance on this pug as she is going through extreme manipulation, like, yeah. And then also how Ashcroft is learning the truth about his reality, like, piece by piece, but then all at once. And sort of, like, that's, that's, The book, right, is him learning this thing, and so those two coming together in that way didn't feel cheap.

Sara:

No, it didn't, it didn't feel cheap. I agree. Like, I mean, I, I did say that it was a little bit deus ex machina, but it, it doesn't feel unearned.

Lilly:

Yeah, so I would argue it's not a deus ex machina,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

that was good. It's a good

Sara:

It was, it was good. It was a good book and it had a pug and the pug

Lilly:

the world!

Sara:

does say, I was, I was really worried for the pug the entire time. I'm not going to lie.

Lilly:

I also there is one pet that dies. In, in the journals we learn about Lena befriending a seagull, and then the seagull dies.

Sara:

the seagull does die.

Lilly:

That was sad.

Sara:

That was sad.

Lilly:

But there's also enough distance from it, cause also at that point Lena's already dead. So it's like, well, everything is sad.

Sara:

Yeah, and it's not the pug and we had already been introduced to the pug and that was what my focus was on at that point in time in the book. I

Lilly:

scene where

Sara:

worried!

Lilly:

has broken the Queen Mother out of the palace. This is in Duma, the rival country, she is sort of being, like, she's been given a mental illness with medication. The, the prince is manufacturing an illness to keep her out of the way, basically. Ashcroft doesn't know that. He thinks he's taking advantage of this poor woman. So he breaks her out of the palace to not to help, but as a smokescreen for his adventures in the city. And then there's some riots that break out, and the guards are looking for them, and so they and some drachiri are all hiding out in this building, and the pug wanders away. And it's very specific. It, like, Oh, she sets him down and he wanders off. And Asheroth just keeps talking to her and thinks, Oh, I'm sure it'll be fine. And I was like, You can't say that.

Sara:

It's not gonna be fine! It was fine.

Lilly:

It was fine. The pug wanders back. And I was like, Oh, okay. But you're still on high alert, because you're like, Was that foreshadowing? Was that just messing with me so that now I'm at ease and then it'll just happen later? No, the pug was okay.

Sara:

pug is, the pug is okay the entire time and thank god because I'm, I'm sorry Yaroslav, we would have had words had the pug not been okay. But the pug's fine. The pug's fine the entire time, this book.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, kind of. Blue Sky, more than Twitter. Instagram and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!