Fiction Fans

Snuff by Terry Pratchett

• Episode 164

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Your hosts spend 17 minutes talking about some tropes they didn't love in Snuff by Terry Pratchett, and then roughly two hours (cut down to a reasonable time) gushing about the rest of the book in the spoiler section so we can't talk about it. Vimes kind of has magic powers, his wife Sybil actually does things in the plot, and there's a character named Stinky (that's really all you need to know).


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

And today we'll be discussing Snuff by Terry Pratchett. But first, our quick little five minute intro. Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I had delicious Indian food for dinner last night, which means I have delicious Indian food leftovers for dinner tonight.

Lilly:

The best of both worlds.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

That sounds so good. I always want curry when it's cold out.

Sara:

There's nothing like it.

Lilly:

no there's not. My good thing is that I have mastered fire. Or maybe not mastered it exactly, but I was struggling and then finally got a fire lit. So, that was I felt accomplished.

Sara:

It sounds like your house is cold enough that that is indeed a very good thing.

Lilly:

Well that's a very good thing, having the fire. But it was comedic how difficult it was to get started. Yeah. And you were like, just get twigs. And I was like, they're all soaking wet.

Sara:

No, my question was, do you have twigs?

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, which yes, but I could sit with a blow, a hairdryer. In front of them.

Sara:

I don't know, I don't know how fire gets made in a house. I've only ever made fire when backpacking.

Lilly:

I mean, it's not different.

Sara:

But like, I don't know if you buy logs from a place or something. Like I just, I don't know the logistics of it.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

It is, it is different when backpacking. You are not trying to set paper on fire.

Lilly:

Well, but you just find anything small, presumably, is step one. Except my problem was all the small things were household goods that were just not fucking catching on fire. It's fine. It's done. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I decided that I would go for some cider, but the secret is that this is cider with the alcohol removed. It is non alcoholic.

Lilly:

so they put alcohol in and then took it back out instead of just drinking like apple juice.

Sara:

Yeah, so it's, it's Golden State's Mighty and Dry, as opposed to their Mighty Dry. No, Dry and Mighty is the non alcoholic version, and their alcoholic version is Mighty Dry. But it's basically like a non alcoholic beer. It's the same concept.

Lilly:

Very nice and very appropriate for our Sam Vimes book that we're reading today.

Sara:

Indeed.

Lilly:

I really wanted to get beet juice my drink. That would have been very fun. I mean there's actual like mocktail recipes in this book that I do kind of want to try, but it's cold so I'm drinking hot chocolate.

Sara:

I feel like if Vimes had been cold, he would have drunk hot chocolate too.

Lilly:

Maybe. And have you read anything good lately?

Sara:

I have not been doing any reading other than the books in Baldur's Gate 3. I really should start reading Long Live Evil by Sarah Rees Brennan because my library hold on that is going to expire quite soon and I have not started it at all.

Lilly:

Oh. Sounds like you got a weekend project. I have not. I read Snuffed by Terry Pratchett. That is my accomplishment for this week. It is, as I said, a Sam Vimes book, although I guess technically the sub series is called City Watch.

Sara:

Yes, it is a City Watch book. It is, in fact, the final City Watch book.

Lilly:

When I first started it, I definitely thought that it was going to be the Pride and Prejudice parody novel. And there are, well, because there are several references to it but I would say it's more just a couple of nods to Pride and Prejudice and less, not like how Masquerade is the Phantom of the Opera book, right?

Sara:

Right. I think this book references Pride and Prejudice, but it is not the Pride and Prejudice book.

Lilly:

It isn't. But, That was good because I did not like Pride and Prejudice.

Sara:

I went through a Jane Austen phase. Where I read a bunch of them, but I was like 15, so it's been a while and I don't remember any of them at all.

Lilly:

I didn't read more than Pride and Prejudice because I was like, Really? This, this is it? Okay. Have fun literally everyone else on the face of the planet. You can keep them,

Sara:

We should read Jane Austen for the podcast.

Lilly:

probably. I might like it better now that I'm an adult. I just remember being so unimpressed with Darcy. I

Sara:

I mean, I feel like that's probably valid.

Lilly:

don't know how much I would change my opinion. But there is no Mr. Darcy in this book. We just have Sam Vimes on a countryside vacation with his rich wife and him kind of fucking shit up for everyone. In a mostly good way,

Sara:

I would, yeah, I mean, he's on vacation, and then work creeps in like it tends to do for him. I suppose it wouldn't be Very interesting novel if nothing happened.

Lilly:

yes. There were some tropes, though, that I didn't really vibe with.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I want to preface this by saying that overall I enjoyed the book But a couple of things just kind of made me mad that I think the most Annoying or the the one that I disliked the most was all of the jokes about the bang bang duck food names Because they were not funny. They were just racist and And I thought that Pratchett had gotten over this and gotten better from the beginning of his Discworld series. And so to see the return of this kind of joke was just kind of a disappointment.

Lilly:

At least it wasn't, like, the, main scaffolding of the novel, the way that one Rincewinds novel was.

Sara:

True.

Lilly:

Or the way it was for that one Rincewinds novel, yeah.

Sara:

But it, it came up more than once.

Lilly:

That's true, yeah. There is also, of course, Sybil. Poor Sybil. Who that character.

Sara:

I mean, she does, at least in the beginning, not so much in the back half of the book, but in the beginning she does kind of suffer from the terrible wife trope, or the

Lilly:

Overbearing wife.

Sara:

the overbearing wife, the beleaguered husband trope that Pratchett likes to use for Vimes and Sybil, where She's doing all of these unreasonable things, like insisting Vimes takes a holiday Keeping him from eating too much bacon, ensuring that his employees listen to her about the bacon and not him, like, these

Lilly:

I actually agree that that is overstepping,

Sara:

okay, they, yes, yes, I, I do agree there I, I do think that, that you should not, or, I, I do think that, that is a bit of an overstep, but saying to your, Husband's employees, hey, I know my husband likes his bacon, is gonna ask you for bacon, can you maybe, like, not give him so much at work? I feel like that's okay.

Lilly:

Yeah, it, the problem is the book plays her as this, like, immovable force.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

and when she's doing considerate things, and when she's doing really awful things. Because also, some of the stuff, like meddling with his work life, which is really not okay. She also has a lot of her weird nobility stuff, where she's like, but we are just better than them. And it gets very old. Although, like you said, she, her character, Gets much better. And not that she goes through character change, but her role in the story gets much better. So, hmm,

Sara:

I think that in the back half of the book, it's not that she changes, or that her character is any better about doing any of these things. It's that Vyme complains about it less in his inner monologue.

Lilly:

yeah. And goal changes pretty significantly. At the beginning it's just, have a nice vacation and see some old shitty friends. Which is fine, and also, Vimes should have to hang out with her friends sometimes. But also, not all the time. And also, why does she get to tell him what to wear? I don't know. It's a lot. And then, we also, she's not the only miserable wife that we see. And then the other ones do end up being extremely shitty.

Sara:

Yeah, there's the wife of General Charles, who is just terrible. She's a terrible person.

Lilly:

But her introduction is the same.

Sara:

yeah.

Lilly:

Like, at the beginning of the book, it's just, oh, these two wives telling their husbands what to eat. Isn't it funny how controlling they are? And then they go off in two very different directions as the book goes on. But, yeah, it was not fun.

Sara:

Yeah, it's it's just, like, I really like Sybil, but I don't like her portrayal. Oh. A lot. Which is kind of a weird thing to say about a character, I think.

Lilly:

I just, her character introduction is so different from what we end up seeing on the page throughout the entire fucking series.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

She's introduced as this, like, eccentric millionaire, sure, but she doesn't care about appearances. She just wants to hang out with her dragons and do fun hobby stuff. And then, as soon as her and Vimes get together, it's, actually, we must all wear uncomfortable outfits and be nice to assholes all the time. And that's just not the point. the person that we were introduced to.

Sara:

I mean, I don't mind her saying we have to be nice to people to their face. Because I do think that a certain amount of that is necessary. But, yeah. Yeah.

Lilly:

It, it's not, well actually it is in this book. It's more that she's constantly engineering social interactions, specifically forcing Vimes to interact with people that she knows he doesn't want to be nice to,

Sara:

Although we do also get her engineering interactions so that he will be a little rude. And

Lilly:

on purpose. Yeah.

Sara:

But, a lot of, I think, I think what bothers me about Vimes and Sybil is that if they just talk to each other more, I feel like there wouldn't be this uncomfortable dynamic.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Like, they just need to have some conversations. And instead we get this ha ha, isn't it funny that Sybil is an overbearing wife, but Fimes really loves her.

Lilly:

Which he shows by never wanting to spend time with her.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Like every loving husband.

Sara:

And complaining all of the time. Yeah.

Lilly:

We did get a little bit more in this book, though, of her original vibe, where she is a little bit more counterculture, perhaps, than some of the other rich fucks. But there is a lot of nobility versus common folk in this book. I mean, Vimes, the vacation is on her estate, and Vimes is the lord of the lands, and it's very strange for him, and it's very strange for everyone else, too, because he doesn't want to play the rules laid out for him, for better and for worse. Mostly for better. There's also a lot of, like, city versus countryside. And some of it was like, oh, it's, it's so quiet it's loud, that kind of thing, right? Like he has to hear the birdsong instead of the sounds of the city. That was funny. There's also his weird preconceptions of countryside folk at the beginning of this book that I thought obviously were untrue and so that made it funny.

Sara:

I mean, I don't know, I got a little tired of him complaining about the country all of the time. Like I, I, it just, I would like to be in an idyllic country, I think that was my thing, I would like to be in an idyllic countryside, and so Vimes complaining about it constantly just made me mad, because I was like, please let me be in that situation.

Lilly:

Yeah, I think it was just him being grumpy about a vacation in general is like, sit down.

Sara:

It's,

Lilly:

And so that kind of got all, like, he was obviously just grumpy about the vacation and not the country itself.

Sara:

yeah, it was not particularly relatable. I have never been grumpy about going on vacation. Although, to be fair, it's not a vacation that he planned, and it's not necessarily to a location that he wants to go to. So I can kind of understand the grumpiness.

Lilly:

Yeah. I had a harder time with his, like, country folk are so simple and straightforward.

Sara:

He made a lot of assumptions that are just not true.

Lilly:

yeah. But that, like, he learns and grows, so that wasn't, it didn't bother me too much because it didn't stick around that long.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And there's a line about how like, huh, wherever people are, they're doing people stuff, or something to that effect. I think the first The introduction of this book was a little hard to get through, but once I got to like, well, third, or a, yeah, about a third of the way through, only because we looked up the exact thing that I can't say, so I know how far into the book it comes up, I enjoyed it much more, and some of my complaints just kind of stopped happening, or some of the things I was complaining about.

Sara:

yeah, I, like I said, I, I enjoyed this book overall. I think it was a fun read. It's never going to be my favorite Discworld book. It's not going to be my favorite Vimes book but it's a, it's a fine read when you're not reading it for a podcast to discuss it and and pick apart all of the details.

Lilly:

but even then, it's not like I was able to ignore those things happening in the last half of the book. It was just that they genuinely stopped happening as you got farther in.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I don't know, I've

Sara:

some of them anyway.

Lilly:

yeah, I will never be the biggest Vimes fan. He kind of just bothers me in general and I think that's just a very basic police thing. And he's so idealistic about the weirdest shit,

Sara:

He, yeah, he is kind of full of contradictions sometimes.

Lilly:

which could be interesting. And I can see why people like him. But what he's full of contradictions about bother me immensely.

Sara:

I am a big Vimes fan and I have some thoughts on Vimes in this book in particular that I can't talk about because, They are very definitely spoilers so we'll just have to wait on that conversation,

Lilly:

Yeah, we can move on. I mean, who should read this book if you're trying to read every Discworld book? I think I liked it more than some of his other books. You know what was weird?

Sara:

the

Lilly:

Vi Other Vimes

Sara:

books, you mean?

Lilly:

Yes. Other Vimes books. Although, some of the other books with him are more like mysteries. Whereas I feel like this book really put on the page what was happening for the reader. Like, Vimes was trying to figure out the mystery, kind of, but the reader gets told what's going on earlier than I expected. And so that sort of made it a different reading experience than almost a mystery novel, which some of his other books get close to. Like, Crime Novels. He's a cop.

Sara:

I wouldn't call this a mystery novel because, like you say, we do know what's happening from a pretty early stage of the book. It is interesting to me how the resolution plays out, but again, I don't really want to talk about that because That's a spoiler by its nature of being about the end of the book.

Lilly:

Yeah so

Sara:

so I'll save that thought too. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod Thank you for all of your support. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. It's goblins!

Sara:

It is goblin time! This is a goblin book!

Lilly:

And they're delightful. I do understand now why in Unseen Academicals everyone was like Nut is not a goblin. It was a very interesting reading experience because Pratchett had not introduced goblins at that point. So when I was reading that book, I was like, why not? Why can't he be what a goblin is in this world?

Sara:

Yeah, it's, it's fun to see a novel that kind of retroactively makes a previous novel make sense. Which I think this does, for that.

Lilly:

Yeah. And he must have had some idea of where he wanted to go with goblins at the time. Or maybe he didn't, I don't know. But it was interesting to see how he dealt with that fantasy creature. They're almost like critters. Like, small, little smelly people, very tribal just in that like, family structure sense. And of course, hated by everyone. Incorrectly so, which is my favorite kind of goblin.

Sara:

Yeah, the goblins were great. I did really enjoy them.

Lilly:

And, I mean, Made this book for me. I really enjoyed this book. I loved the goblins. I loved reading about the goblins. I hated all of the goblin violence, or that is all of the violence towards goblins. However, the book is about changing that dynamic and so it felt really good.

Sara:

Agreed. The one goblin thing that I wish had had more resolution was the plotline with Sergeant Colon

Lilly:

Yeah, that kind of just ended,

Sara:

yeah, that, that feels like it goes nowhere, really. It feels like it was supposed to go somewhere, and then it just drops off. There is a resolution, but it's not a particularly And it's not a bad I mean, it's a happy ending resolution, but

Lilly:

but we don't see it.

Sara:

yeah, it's not particularly satisfying so I I wish that more had happened there.

Lilly:

Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Sara:

And I want to know more about Nabi and his goblin Paramore, or Admirer, because I guess they're not actually together.

Lilly:

At the end, I thought it was implied that Nobby was in fact reciprocal to

Sara:

It's, it's kind of implied, yeah.

Lilly:

That I felt Like the book. gave me enough. I would just expect there to be a some continuation of it in the next book, except we're running into the end of Discworld, so I don't think that happens, because there is no next book.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I didn't necessarily think that this book needed more of that storyline. Nabi and, I don't remember what her name was. I just, it was cute. I liked it. I would have liked to see more in another book, but like you say, there is no next book.

Lilly:

Yeah. We have seen our first nice teacher, Discworld history, the only nice teacher in the entire 500 book series,

Sara:

I I'm not entirely sure I agree with you. I did feel like she was pretty condescending in the ways that she talked about the goblins she was teaching a lot of the time. Especially when you contrasted that with what was his name, Billy Slick, who was a goblin from outside of Ankh Morpork, who worked at Harry King's factory. It just, something, like, I, I liked the Pooh lady. In general. I don't remember her name, so she's the pooh

Lilly:

Me neither.

Sara:

It was Felicity Beetle or something.

Lilly:

that sounds right. And she writes children's books that young Sam loves that are mostly about bodily excretions,

Sara:

yes.

Lilly:

which is pretty funny. Okay, so I, I, we could get into a conversation about how condescending she is. I don't, I don't know which side of that I fall on, but I don't think that changes my point that this book presents her as a good teacher.

Sara:

okay, that's fair. I agree that this book presents her as a good teacher.

Lilly:

My defense for the condescending thing is we don't know how old her students are.

Sara:

It's true, but I'm,

Lilly:

kids, she talks about them like she's a preschool teacher, so it's possible.

Sara:

I'm pretty sure that at least Tears of the Mushroom is, is a good teacher. They say that she's like 14 or 15,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

and she definitely also gets talked about like she's a preschooler by the Pooh Lady.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. She is kind of condescending. But she's still also one of the only people in support of goblins rights at the beginning of this book, so she still gets a bonus.

Sara:

I think she's a good person, and I think that she, her heart is in the right place and I think that Pratchett was trying to make her. a good sympathetic teacher. I don't know if he was always successful in that.

Lilly:

I like that he addressed when Vimes first discovers that this fancy lady hangs out with goblins. Mm hmm. And Vines is like, oh, you're trying to make them, like, civilized, like, people. And she says, no, I, like, they're goblins, I'm not trying to change them, I'm just trying to give them more tools, basically. Language, and Things like that. Self respect. Because the goblins are very sad. And I don't know if that necessarily is held up by everything on the page, but I liked the sentiment and I'm glad it was addressed.

Sara:

It was a good sentiment. I did think it was a little undercut by the way that she said, do you know that they only have words for three colors or something? Like, I mean, she goes on to explain that they have a large vocabulary for specific things and not for others, but just the immediate presentation of that felt like it was counter to her point about them being their own civilization that's just as valid as the human civilization.

Lilly:

Yeah, I don't know if that's Hmm. Isn't that just the limits of language and how they have been so beaten down and oppressed for generations that they just haven't had the opportunity?

Sara:

It it is, but that was not how I felt her words came off.

Lilly:

Fair enough. I mean, I agree that she is kind of condescending to them, so Yeah, I'm glad they tried.

Sara:

Yes. Okay, I want to talk about Vimes now.

Lilly:

I know he is in this book, isn't he?

Sara:

because he is in this book and we did start a conversation in the non spoiler section that I would like to continue about him and his character. And the thing that I didn't want to say in the Non spoiler section was that I don't think that this book works for him because I think that he's a much more compelling character when everything that he overcomes he does, I don't want to say by himself, because he's never by himself, like he always has a lot of assistance, but he, he does it based on his own innate traits. So, yeah. qualities. And this one has a, like, he, he's almost a magical mythical figure in this. Like, he has magical dark vision that he got from one of the previous books and he,

Lilly:

Thud, I think.

Sara:

yeah, I think it was Thud. And he can talk to this, like, god of dark, or,

Lilly:

The creeping darkness or

Sara:

yeah, yeah, this,

Lilly:

manifestation of the concept of justice and revenge.

Sara:

yeah, and it helps him and, and gives him pointers, and it just kind of lessens the impact of everything I think that Vimes as a character stands for, for me so in that respect, I don't think that this book works.

Lilly:

Mmm, that didn't bother me, but I think that's because Vimes never particularly works for me. And so I was like, oh cool, magic powers, let's go.

Sara:

Yeah, like, if I,

Lilly:

downside.

Sara:

if I, if I didn't. Like human vimes, this would be fine. It'd be great. But

Lilly:

get a little, not wishy washy, but mixed up for me. Because he has this sort of haunting That is, giving him darkvision, and also kind of needling him towards the investigation a little bit. But then we also have his weird, like, talking to himself thing that he always does. About how he's such a badass cop and so hardened by the world. And he always has to talk to himself about it when he's reaching the end of one of his cases. And it was like, you can't talk to this many, like, mysterious entities, my guy. Pick one. wish it had been The Darkness the whole time or something, and maybe it was, and I just got confused because he does also talk to himself a lot. I don't know.

Sara:

yeah, I I also think that in other books too, where him talking to himself, like from the beginning of the series, I don't think him talking to himself is quite as prevalent. I think that's something that increases over the course of the series as a whole. And it's not something that I find particularly effective in general. So,

Lilly:

I don't mind it in the more mystery novels because you have to come up with some way to get the deductions on the page. And so the character having a conversation with themselves Is a, just a vehicle to communicate with the reader. It's fine. But in this, it started to become more of a characterization aspect. And that's where it lost me a little bit, I

Sara:

yeah, well, I think that's what I'm saying, like, that change happens over the course of the series. And so yes, you're right, when it is just help get the mystery solved on the page, that's fine. But when there is this inner Vimes as a character, I

Lilly:

so tortured.

Sara:

Yeah, like, that's, that's where it starts to lose me. I,

Lilly:

I did love his friendship with Willikins in this book. Willikins is just like some random ass butler that Lady Sybil had. That was introduced many books ago, and at one point, prevents an assassination, I think, is when we first see him being, like, secretly badass, and Vimes is like, oh, I respect you and see you as my equal. And then, in this book, suddenly, he is, like, there. It's the buddy cop, Willikens and Vimes story. And that was very fun. Was

Sara:

liked seeing more of Willikin's, although again, his extreme competence with martial skills feels more like plot convenience than actual character development, because it's not, and to be clear, I wouldn't mind if he was a good fighter. fighter, a decent fighter, but like this is, he is the best fighter that has ever fought, basically,

Lilly:

an old man, also. Like, I would like

Sara:

yeah. So it's just a little excessive for me. If Pratchett had toned it down just, just a smidge, I would have liked it more. That's

Lilly:

a little bit better in the previous books, because it's not so much that he's an amazing boxer or whatever, but that he kind of takes people off guard, because they expect him to just be this, like, random old man butler. They don't expect him to have secret weapons on him and to get the drop on them. And so that totally works. And I agree that his badassery gets ratcheted way up in this book. But it gave Vimes a chance to be good cop, because it's usually Vimes and Carrot, and so Vimes is always bad cop.

Sara:

true. It was,

Lilly:

be good cop. Hehehehehehe.

Sara:

behalf that he got to be the good cop this time. And it makes sense because he's trying to be the good cop for his son. Because often they're doing things with young Sam,

Lilly:

Interesting. I thought, I felt like it was more pointed at Feeny. Was that the guy's name?

Sara:

Feeny, well, it's pointed at him too.

Lilly:

Because I feel like it comes up more when it's Vimes and Feeny. Who is the, he's a kid. He's supposed to be like 19 or 20 or something. He's not grizz grizzined? You Is that a word? Grizzled. Thank you. Competent professional. But he's the only cop in town. And Vimes, like, takes him under his wing and starts training him to be a, you know, a more assertive, competent cop and less of a lackey. Because he's kind of a lackey to the corrupt magistrates at the beginning. Or not lackey, but he gets pushed around by them.

Sara:

he's definitely a dupe.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

And I agree, I think, Some of the good cop is Vimes being a good example for Feeney. But not all of it. Some of, some of it, I think, is Is for young Sam, too.

Lilly:

Well, we also see Vimes himself kind of turning into a mythological figure. Like you mentioned with the darkness. I mean, everyone knows his name, and a couple of times people are like, I thought you were dead, like, and there's a couple of jokes where, Oh the police, I hope it's not Sam Vimes out there! And, and it means you get a very interesting dynamic where his reputation precedes him. They end up in Quirm, I

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

for a period of time. And it's like, they've based their entire police system off of his guidance. Did he write a book? He might have written a book or something. Code of Conduct.

Sara:

I forget what it is specifically, but they've talked about in previous books Watchmen coming to Ankh Morpork to do, like, a year or two and then taking all of their knowledge back to where they're from, with Quirm mentioned specifically. Exactly.

Lilly:

they kind of have an exchange student thing, right? Because one of his City Watch are in Quorum when he gets there, because they had been traded or something. And so we're sort of seeing him at a point in his career where he is an influence on this industry. It's not an industry, but I'm going to call it his field of work. And him sort of, I mean, using that to his advantage, absolutely. But also realizing that that is responsibility. He's not just Sam Vimes anymore.

Sara:

I mean, he's been the second most powerful person in Ankh Morpork for a long time, though,

Lilly:

Oh, of course.

Sara:

so he should have realized that before now.

Lilly:

Okay, maybe realized was a bad word. Acknowledging while it's happening, I guess? Like, we don't see him in other places that often. There was that one book that I can never remember the name of because it's stupid. It's The Fifth Elephant. Except now I can't remember the name of it because I know it's the one that doesn't make any sense. But it really made it feel like this book was a farewell to Vimes. He was graduated. He's now the granddaddy cop. He's not the one who's actually running around. And he got his, like, he got a good adventure. Not necessarily his last one, but, I mean, it is for us as readers.

Sara:

To uh, pilot a riverboat.

Lilly:

yeah. And keeps the boat they're on from getting absolutely destroyed by a flood, a dam break. And so everyone, like, hails him as a boating hero, as well as a cop hero, and we see we get to see all of his influence and how far it's spread, like, very specifically. And so it really felt like a retirement ceremony for Vimes as a character. He passes the torch to a new generation of police.

Sara:

We don't actually see him pass the torch, but you do get that sense at the end that he's less reluctant to take vacations, that maybe he's going to go part time eventually. I mean, this is just extrapolation, but it really does feel like at the end of the book, he is much less of a workaholic than he is at the beginning.

Lilly:

Yeah, and I mean, passing the torch, not even metaphorically, subtextually.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

retire, but that's definitely How, like, that's definitely the emotion that this book left me with, in a way that his other books did not,

Sara:

Well, I mean, you, you do see it very literally at the beginning of the book when he turns in his bad or pretends to turn in his badge so that he can go on vacation.

Lilly:

yeah. That's different, because it's under much duress. And specifically temporary, and he's itching to get back. Whereas in this, it feels like he's sort of okay with maybe spending five goddamn minutes with his son,

Sara:

It is different, but I think that contributes to the sense at the end. Like, he's done it once, grudgingly, but he'll do it again, willingly. Because he really should be spending some time with his family.

Lilly:

yeah. It was very funny to me at the beginning, when, there's, I don't remember what the comment exactly was in the narration, but it's like, The Ramekin family was rich and Sibyl's the only one left in her family. And I was like, well, she has a husband and a child. And I was like, well, she has a husband and a child. She's, I mean, she's not really the only one in our family.

Sara:

Not anymore.

Lilly:

If you don't count Vimes because he married in, sure, but she has a son. She's very explicitly not the only one in her family. Oh, I did like her at the end, not just the end of this book, but, okay. She's a shitty rich person. She thinks rich people are better than poor people. That's a problem we've been dealing with for a little while now. And always trying to convince Vimes that he is also better than poor people because he's rich now. But convinces her that goblins are not okay to kill because they do art. And apparently that's what you have to do for your life to have value to Lady Sybil.

Sara:

Sibyl, I think she would have been okay with goblins anyway, if Fimes had said, Well, actually, no. I think, to be fair to Lady Sibyl, I think she would have been okay with goblins anyway. It's just that Vimes brings her to Tears of the Mush, or whoever, whichever goblin it

Lilly:

It was Tears of the

Sara:

yeah, that does the beautiful music.

Lilly:

Except he had already explained to her that a goblin had been murdered and no one is looking into it, so he has to. And she's like, calm down, dear. That's not really a big deal. You're gonna make the rich people upset if you try to hold them accountable for that. And then she's like, whoa, a musician! Oh, can't kill them! But anyway, she's eventually on Team Goblin. And then Her character takes off. And it's back to like, Sybil with convictions Sybil who doesn't care about appearances as much as she cares about her own values, and She gets, like, some major work done, and Vetinari at the end is like, She's the reason why people are accepting goblins now. Her, like, PR campaign.

Sara:

She does a great PR campaign,

Lilly:

yeah, using her influence for good. It was awesome. And then she's also like, Okay, you're permitted to upset the rich folk in order to do this investigation, I guess.

Sara:

But won't someone think of Lord Rust, the father?

Lilly:

We don't want to embarrass anybody. It's just one little murder.

Sara:

I will say the other thing that I found kind of disappointing about this book was the Way that, the, like, the finale, or kind of the lack of finale, with all of the bad guys being arrested off screen, except for the one who actually did the murder, but he he wasn't the mastermind, but everything else, everyone else gets arrested off screen, they're sentenced off screen, we just hear about it second or third hand, and that felt a little, I mean it, it really does feel like they get off lightly because they're rich,

Lilly:

Well.

Sara:

that is explicit in the text, but it's also not satisfying.

Lilly:

Yeah, and then we get Lord Charles who's like, I know my wife, like, committed a little genocide and slavery, but she's gonna be really embarrassed if you put her in jail, so could you not?

Sara:

She's a good person, I swear.

Lilly:

Yeah. I don't hate every word that comes out of her mouth. That would've been hilarious if He wasn't portrayed as a sympathetic character.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

That should have been, how absurd is it that this human being is saying this? But no, it was, oh, but he does love her. It was only a little bit of slavery.

Sara:

They were considered vermin at the time, it's fine.

Lilly:

She didn't kill anyone, she just paid people to, it's completely different. I agree. So, a part of me doesn't mind it as much because that's like, Vyme's whole ass point throughout the whole book. He doesn't just want to find the brute who was paid a dollar to commit this murder. He wants to find out the person behind it, because there's clearly a plot being covered up.

Sara:

I mean, he wants genuine justice.

Lilly:

Yeah, genuine justice and actionable change, which I really, I really liked. And so when the whole ass book is about holding the people actually responsible, accountable for their actions, I think, you know, You don't need to totally spell it out on the page, but I do think I would have liked to see at least one of the arrests. And I'd like, if it's so embarrassing, like, let me see their humiliation! If that is really the only lasting consequences they're going to have. Let me revel in it a little bit.

Sara:

Yeah, it just, it didn't feel like he was successful in enacting change in that respect. Like, obviously, he gets the laws changed so that goblins are now considered

Lilly:

Sentient beings,

Sara:

beings. They're not vermin anymore. It's illegal to kill them and, you know, do terrible things to

Lilly:

the laws apply to them now.

Sara:

Yes, but he's not successful in ensuring that the things that happened to them before the laws were changed count as crimes. And so. We don't actually see anyone punished. I mean, Lord Rust's son gets disinherited, but he still goes off to, you know, a nice country. He probably has a cushy bit of money and lives pretty well, even if he's not going to inherit the Rust family name and fortune.

Lilly:

and Vetinari talks to Vimes about that at the end, because Vimes is also complaining about it, and Vetinari Tries to placate him with that. You can't retroactively apply laws, which, that is true, you can't. But, I mean, the idea that all of these go into effect within like, a week. is pretty magical. Like, that is a straight up fantasy. I think three different, four different jurisdictions all put it into law. That's incredible! That's huge, long lasting change that's gonna make a, like, radically change Goblin's experience. And I agree that Just being outcasts doesn't feel like enough, but it might have if we had seen it.

Sara:

Possibly.

Lilly:

The fact that we don't even get to see them have the minor punishment that they do get is like, Give it to me. Okay, let me see. I want one person to throw a tomato at them. I mean, come on. Bottle up goblin stink and make them, like, live in it for a little while. I wouldn't want to make them live with the goblins because the goblins don't deserve that.

Sara:

No, they do not deserve that.

Lilly:

But that could be the retroactive punishment. Anyone who committed a crime what is now considered a crime against goblins must live with goblin stink pervading their house for a certain amount of time.

Sara:

But we don't see anything of the sort.

Lilly:

No. But we do see Stinky, the goblin, who I love with my whole heart.

Sara:

Stinky, Stinky is a good goblin. Possibly God.

Lilly:

Yeah, I was gonna say, is he is he the god of goblins? Maybe. But he's delightful.

Sara:

He

Lilly:

He's a he is a goblin policeman.

Sara:

And Klax Operator.

Lilly:

Yes, man of many talents.

Sara:

And Horse Wrangler.

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

Or Horse Whisperer.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, for all of the, like, rough parts of this book, those delightful little guys were fantastic. And they had enough page time that, I mean, this is the Goblin book, and I loved every minute of it. Of the Goblins, at least. And that's enough of the book that it counts.

Sara:

There were a lot of goblins, and goblins are always delightful.

Lilly:

Can we tag this book as part of our Goblin era?

Sara:

Oh, that was the plan.

Lilly:

Okay, even though we kept the Goblin talk in the spoilers section,

Sara:

Oh, but it, yeah. That's fine. It's fine.

Lilly:

I think it's fine. Mm hmm. I can just be mysterious.

Sara:

Yep. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!