Fiction Fans

The Year of the Witching by Alexis Henderson

• Episode 163

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Your hosts discuss witchcraft and religion in their conversation about The Year of the Witching by Alexis Henderson. They talk about familiar conflicts in fantasy settings, surprising (and not so surprising) character arcs, and whether rivers of blood or rivers of bones would be scarier.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Scott Buckley for the use of “Twilight Echo”

- Darkest Child by Kevin MacLeod

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

And tonight we'll be discussing The Year of the Witching by Alexis Henderson. But first, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I was really productive today.

Lilly:

Oh, what it, like, chores? Life productive?

Sara:

house, house stuff. I changed my sheets, did laundry watered my indoor house plants, re potted a fig put an apple tree in the ground, played a little bit of Baldur's Gate 3, just got a lot of shit done.

Lilly:

Damn, you weren't kidding.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

My good thing is that the leaves are changing color. Driving back home from the grocery store today, just like both sides of the street towards my neighborhood, bright red.

Sara:

Oh, so pretty.

Lilly:

Yeah. And soon they'll all be gone. But for now, just a quick pop of color. It's very nice. Especially when it's been gray for like a week. What

Sara:

a little early for our fall foliage here and it has not been gray enough.

Lilly:

are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

You have talked so much about the delights of chider that when I went to BevMo and saw it, I was like, okay, I got to try this. So that's what I'm drinking tonight.

Lilly:

I feel like it's gonna be way too sweet for you.

Sara:

It's a little sweet. So I do really like chai and I think that. Helps even, like, balance it out. I probably wouldn't go out of my way to buy more of it I'm not going to be unhappy drinking this six pack of it that I have,

Lilly:

Well, that's good.

Sara:

but shilling cider does tend to be too sweet for me.

Lilly:

I have the absolute cheapest sparkling wine. Yeah, I just wanted

Sara:

Sometimes you just got to drink sparkling wine.

Lilly:

something bubbly. I don't know.

Sara:

Yeah, absolutely.

Lilly:

I am still reading Solstitious Submissions. Surprising, probably no one. Although by the time this episode comes out, I will have finished.

Sara:

You better have finished by the time this

Lilly:

I need

Sara:

out.

Lilly:

How about you, read anything good lately?

Sara:

I started reading our next podcast book, which doesn't count. I have continued to read things in Baldur's Gate 3 which. Only semi counts. And besides that, not really. I've not been doing a lot of reading recently.

Lilly:

Or you've been doing a ton of reading recently and it's been for the podcast.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Well, The Year of the Witching. Okay, I'm always really hot and cold on witch books. I feel like I Ought to really love them, but then I'm very particular, extremely particular.

Sara:

You, picky about a book? That's never happened before.

Lilly:

But this book, I think, worked for me.

Sara:

Good.

Lilly:

I know it worked for me. I don't think it did, I know it did. It didn't hit, like, all of my guilty pleasure buttons, so I'm not like, Ah, it was written for me! But, In that I am obnoxiously particular about witchy books, I did not have any pet peeves with it, so that honestly I think is a triumph.

Sara:

I mean, that is actually genuinely pretty impressive.

Lilly:

Oh, the vibes of this book were so good, and I'm not sure what season it's supposed to take pla Well, it's the year of the witching. I don't think it takes place over a whole year, but there is like a huge time fra It's at least six months over the course of the book, I think.

Sara:

Yeah, it's, my impression was that it was pretty long. I don't know if it's a whole year, but it's not something that takes place in two weeks.

Lilly:

Well, it was the right vibes for, like, rainy day, gloomy fall, spooky books.

Sara:

It is, it is definitely a spooky month book. It had excellent spooky month vibes. I think it was a very good book. I hated it,

Lilly:

Yeah, yeah, you hated it.

Sara:

but again, that's, that's me. That's not the book. I was not the reader for this.

Lilly:

One thing that this book did extremely well for me in particular was how it dealt with themes of religion and high control religions. was definitely hinting at Christianity, referencing Hinting doesn't even feel strong enough. But at the same time, at no point was I like, this is just re skinned Christianity.

Sara:

I mean, it, it has a lot of commonalities with Christianity, but it's kind of like a step to the left.

Lilly:

It was the perfect, like, You know, speculative fiction, commenting on our world by doing its own version of it.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

But there's no question about it. I mean, just the names alone in this book. It made me very nervous when I started, because I was like, Oh, we're just naming people Judas? Okay. But that, like, contrasted very much with the fact that it was clearly its own religious practice. And so I actually was very into it.

Sara:

While I was reading this, I had been wondering how you would take to it because You have been very vocal in some of the books that we've read about how much the religious aspect and the, thinly veiled references to Christianity, like, don't work for you. And I do see your point that this is not just reskin Christianity, but it's part of it. Pretty close.

Lilly:

mean, it is.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

There's no question in my mind what patriarchal culture this book is critiquing.

Sara:

Okay.

Lilly:

But I think the reason why it worked so well for me in part, again, for me in particular, is because that's what the book was about.

Sara:

It is absolutely what the book is about.

Lilly:

it is very, like, specifically dealing with those concepts and the repercussions of it. a high control patriarchal society. And so I didn't feel like it was just this like random thing rearing its head when I wasn't expecting it, like a weed. I'm like, wow, where'd that come from? I was not jump scared by the religiousness. This book was like, hey, we're going to talk about this for 300 pages. And that's fine.

Sara:

I guess that makes sense.

Lilly:

And yeah, it wasn't incidental. It was clearly very purposeful and thought out, and so it, I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was very interesting, because, so this book is introduced, the main character is, lives in Bethel, she's part of the, this highly religious community, and then there are the evil witches who live in the Darkwoods. And, I mean, did we think for a second that the prophet, the leader of this town, was going to end up being the good guy? I'm not even going to put that in the spoiler section. I mean, like, where were you at with this introduction?

Sara:

Yeah, it's pretty clear just from the beginning, I think, that the prophet is not going to be. Our lord and savior, and in fact is going to be a villain.

Lilly:

It's interesting because as this book was introduced, you know, oh, the religion are the good guys. And the counterculture, the witches are the bad guys, right? That is how her culture sees these two sides. I would say that's fair.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Going into it, I knew, like, just, just the way the characters were introduced. I thought that was done so well with how our main character, this was told in very close third person. Which is another thing that I really like. Like, this book does so much for me. It like, helps it get away with a lot. The tone, ooh, that's, that's it. We talk a lot about how things can happen in a book, but can be signaled that they are not actually good.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

And this book does that so spot on with the, I'd say the Prophet in particular. there are some other aspects that are, get the same treatment. Where everyone is saying that these guys, these are the good guys. The narration is saying these are the good guys. And then at the same time describing them in the most sinister way. That it's like, oh sure, okay.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I think the book makes it very clear from the beginning that we should not be trusting the descriptions of the Prophet and, the proponents of this religion as good guys in terms of like plotline. I mean, I think some, some of the people, sure, they're, they're not all bad, but definitely Sets it up as antagonistic, in a sense.

Lilly:

Yeah. And despite that though, I would not say that it felt And that's why this isn't in the spoiler section, right? Like, the fact that, oh, some of the, some of the upstanding members of society turn out to be bad people? Shocked. But that didn't feel like I figured out the twist, right? That wasn't the twist. This book was more of a journey for Immanuelle the main character, discovering that for herself. so the question for me as a reader was not who's going to end up as a good guy or as a bad guy, but it was how is Emmanuelle going to navigate this experience and, I mean, deconstruction from this cult basically. And it's not a cult because like so many people follow it, but as far as the, I mean,

Sara:

There's a very cult like mentality about the whole thing.

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

I mean, if numbers are the only thing that characterizes a religion versus a cult, yeah, this is a religion. But they are pretty puritanical about it. How they practice.

Lilly:

And manipulative. I think the, the over the top manipulation that we get. I mean, they're so, also so insular. Even though they're not the only city that follows this religion, they don't talk to the outside world. And that alone is like alarm bells, right?

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

You need permission to leave the city? Something's not right.

Sara:

That's, that's a cult right there.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. I do think Just as an aside, contemporarily, indeed, number of followers is the only difference between a cult and a religion. But I don't have no idea if that's true. That's just my understanding of it.

Sara:

I have no idea.

Lilly:

we also get, so, surprise, puritanical cult super sexist. I don't, I'm being silly. I, I think the point I'm trying to make is that this book introduces many concepts that we, I mean, even though this is a fictional setting. we as people in our modern society recognize things.

Sara:

Absolutely.

Lilly:

so, even though it's like, the world building is not supposed to be the twist, right? It's not, it's set up as, not exactly a metaphor, but certainly commentary. And so when we see things like Oh, a woman is in the stocks for seducing, quote unquote, seducing an older man who cheated on his wife by sleeping with her. I don't remember where I was going with this, but

Sara:

I mean, you're, you're right. There are a lot of parallels with the real world, and it should not come as a surprise to any reader that the society in which they live is a deeply fucked up one and suffers from sexism and racism and, you know, A lot of abuse happens to the people who have less power.

Lilly:

And even though we're introduced to this system as it being good and holy,, that's not what this is about. It's not the reader going, What?

Sara:

yeah, the, the, the reader can apply. their understanding of the world and recognize that this is not a great a great society. It has a lot of problems, and the book is not trying to hide that because the book is about Emanuelle's journey, recognizing that the society in which she lives has a lot of problems.

Lilly:

I think that's, I think that's what I'm struggling with. It's, we're in the non spoiler section. And so I'm talking about things that if you read the subtext, it is so obvious from page one. But they do get straight up confirmed at the end of the book, like, on the page, written out. And so I feel like I'm spoiling things,

Sara:

I know it,

Lilly:

I don't think I am.

Sara:

it, it does feel like a spoiler to say things. I think in this case, the, the fact that, for example the heads of state and the heads of the church, well the prophet, turn out to be bad people is not a spoiler, the exact specifics of how that comes out would be a spoiler, but anyone, anyone can read the introduction of these characters and go, yeah, there's something skeevy about, you know. About this person.

Lilly:

I would actually genuinely judged someone immensely if they read the Prophet's introduction. And was like, what do you mean he's not the hero?

Sara:

Yeah, like, like the, the

Lilly:

It says there right on the page, he's there to save their souls.

Sara:

the book is not trying to hide any of that. It's just that the characters in the book don't recognize it from the start, because this is their society that they've grown up in, they're indoctrinated into it. You know, they, they. have all of this, like you said, deconditioning that they need to do.

Lilly:

And I think Although I often struggle with highly religious content because that was so clear from page one, it really helped me go, okay, it's gonna be okay. This is going somewhere.

Sara:

You knew that there was a point to all of this.

Lilly:

Yeah. And I think that helps because we are reading about an extremely abusive culture and extremely abusive people in that culture. Sometimes I read a book and hope to God there's a twist and then there's not. And I'm like, oh no. But this book made it very clear that yes, yes, we are going to go there. Don't worry about it. And it helps reading about awful people doing awful things when I know that the book agrees that they are awful.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

But this is not all about the religion. We also get the counterculture. Counting on counterculture is really not accurate. The witches, The main ones that we hear about for the most part are, like, historical figures, mythological figures, almost. Now that, hmm, how to talk about this without spoiling it? Because all of these things are happening, all of these fun, fun, for some definition of fun, fantasy things are happening. But at the same time, Immanuelle our main character, is also going through a journey of, like, discovering herself and her family history, and you can't really talk about one without the other.

Sara:

They're very intertwined.

Lilly:

Yeah, and so I wouldn't feel bad spoiling or discussing, I don't feel like it's a spoiler, to discuss the witches except in how that relates to Emmanuel. And then suddenly I'm like, well now I can't say anything.

Sara:

What does the blurb on the back say?

Lilly:

Good point.

Sara:

So the blurb on the back says that a mishap lures her into the forbidden darkwood I'm skipping the first paragraph, but a mishap lures her into the forbidden darkwood surrounding Bethel where the first prophet once chased and killed four powerful witches. Their spirits are still lurking there, and they bestow a gift on Immanuel, the journal of her dead mother, who Immanuel is shocked to learn once sought sanctuary in the wood. Fascinated by the secrets in the diary, Immanuel finds herself struggling to understand how her mother could have consorted with the witches. And then it talks a little bit about her changing and. Things like that, but

Lilly:

All right, so we can acknowledge that the witches are there and that she meets them. That's really as far as we can get. I think what I'm struggling with in this conversation is. A, everything. B, obviously I enjoyed the parts about the witches more than I enjoyed reading the parts about the prophet, just from a personal perspective. But that is the part that is so much more interwoven with the plot and where it's going that I think we might just have to wrap up and go to the spoilers section. But then, flip side, we have given a terrible, not a terrible impression of this book for potential readers.

Sara:

we have not done a very good job at enticing people to read this book. I do think that it's worth taking a minute to talk about the different kinds of horror in this book. Because, kind of in, in reference to what you were saying about enjoying the witch stuff more, I think the things with the Prophet are more horrifying, but the stuff with the witches is very horror movie vibes. Like

Lilly:

gory for sure.

Sara:

yeah, this is a very cinematic book.

Lilly:

Mmm.

Sara:

Like, I, I felt like I was reading a horror movie. If that makes sense.

Lilly:

It does. I didn't get there while I was reading it, but thinking about it from that lens, I am with you 100%.

Sara:

Yeah. Like, I, I don't watch horror movies so this is coming from kind of my, what I, what I imagine a horror movie to be like, more than maybe anything in re, in reality. But it just had that vibe. Yeah.

Lilly:

It, you're right though. So we have the main, the religion of this region, which is horrifying in its just abuse and dehumanization of people. And then there is the obvious pushback by the people who have been run over by this culture for who knows how long. The timeline is not super clear and it doesn't matter. But a while ago, and so then there is this sort of deep horror you feel for what people go through. And then there is the classic gore, sort of, even psychological thriller in some ways. effects of the, I'm going to continue calling it the counterculture, even if that's not correct, the pushback against the oppressive class.

Sara:

I think there's a lot of horror imagery in the novel.

Lilly:

But I, and then thinking about it from a, okay, our sort of working definition of horror is intended to freak you out, right?

Sara:

Yes. I,

Lilly:

like, are blood, right? There's blood rivers at one point. Not going to talk about how, but they're there. And that. Because I know is coming from a place of pushing back against this culture that I've already decided I hate. It was hard for me to really be either freaked out, or horrified by it because I was like, yeah, you get them. And it's much more complicated than that. I really love the sort of gray areas that this book deals in, but as a reader, I was just like, nope. Well,

Sara:

I have some thoughts about that that are spoiler y, so I'm going to save them. I agree that it doesn't necessarily fit with our definition of horror. But I think it, it still very much counted for me. Maybe just because it was in combination with all of the other spooky shit is in this book.

Lilly:

I think it's right. The book is greater than the sum of its parts in that way. There are things that deeply freaked me out and they were not the classic horror imagery. But those two things combined created an overall capital H horror experience.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

And so I think in that, in that regards, it worked great. And in fact, that's almost even better, right? Because you're getting this almost heavy metal I don't even want to describe what happens. The, the cool witch shit happens. And it's bad and people die. But that was, so much more enjoyable to me than the prophet's just staring at the main character while he's giving a sermon. So unsettling. And having it, the, the quiet quote unquote safe moments, supposedly safe moments, being the ones that actually freaked me out more, I think made the book overall even more unsettling, which also helped push it farther into the horror side.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, this was definitely, for me, definitely, definitely, definitely a horror novel.

Lilly:

No, it for sure was. It's just really interesting seeing how, how those pieces, how those puzzle pieces sort of fit together.

Sara:

Yeah. And I do think that it would make a very good horror movie, although I think that if it was a movie, It would, the horror aspect would be a little lessened in the societal horror, just because that's harder to get into as a movie, but I did find it very cinematic.

Lilly:

We should talk about our main character a little bit because, I mean, this is her book, right? Emmanuelle is a young woman. Is she 17?

Sara:

That's still a young woman.

Lilly:

no, it is. I was just realizing that I did actually know her exact age and so I didn't have to give a vague category. know exactly how old she is. she is the daughter of the first wife of a Not disillusioned. What's the word? When someone has been, has like fallen from favor.

Sara:

She's not actually, her mother is not actually the first wife. Her grandmother is.

Lilly:

Yeah. Oh yeah, also all the polygamy. This book is nuts. And not the cool polygamy. So her mother died in childbirth, but was supposed to marry, be married to the prophet, but ends up having Emmanuel out of wedlock with a black man and everyone's mad about it.

Sara:

There's, as maybe is to be expected from a society like this in addition to all of the sexism, there's a lot of racism. So, the, all of the, Wealthy practitioners of this cult like religion are basically the white people and everyone else lives on the outskirts and they have their own, you know, kind of counterculture. And it was a huge scandal for Emmanuel's mother both to have relationships, have a relationship with someone while she was supposed to be married to the prophet, but even more than that, to have a relationship with a black man from the outskirts.

Lilly:

I realized it was my fault and I used the word first, but counterculture is just so not the right vibe.

Sara:

It's not, it's not really the right vibe. It is your fault though.

Lilly:

It is entirely my fault. Although that brings up so obviously racism and then also Emmanuel's place as you know, a person of color, but mixed, right? She's mixed race, and her sort of not fitting in anywhere really well also comes up. And I'm reminded again, the language choices in this book are so precise and thoughtful. Henderson never uses phrases from our culture to describe these things. I don't think she ever calls anyone black, right? There's Dark skinned. There's never any racial language used, just in the same way that the religion doesn't use words that I would recognize. And that is such a nice sort of layer of separation that helps you interact with the story without being confronted by that stuff, I think.

Sara:

mean, I, I disagree a little bit. I think it confronts you with it,

Lilly:

Mm. I mean, it doesn't shy away from what it's dealing with. That's not what I mean. By not using language that we recognize, like slang terms or anything, it does truly separate this story from our world. Even though the things that are happening in it are familiar.

Sara:

I guess. I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I'm not sure I can articulate why I don't agree. So,

Lilly:

I don't know, there's But you do agree that all of the language is very much from this, from their world and not from our world.

Sara:

yeah, I, I mean, Henderson is very precise with the language she uses. But I think that just like the religion is very clear a very clear parallel, I think the racism is a very clear parallel. I

Lilly:

it is. It absolutely is. But, I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say about it. But there's something there, Sarah.

Sara:

don't know. I'm not so sure in this case.

Lilly:

Well, it would really help my argument if I could articulate it.

Sara:

A little bit, yes.

Lilly:

Yeah, I guess we can leave it at that, but Can I, okay, can I say it's interesting how, despite, I'm just gonna fall back on the nice catch all word interesting that says nothing but it is interesting how, despite dealing with very familiar issues familiar because of, you know, them happening in our reality, whereas this is a fully fictional setting. There is no particular language used. I don't know. I, I'll stop. But there's something, there's something there.

Sara:

I don't really think there's something there. I mean, I think that's just one of the ways that Henderson decided to world build.

Lilly:

think it's more than that, but okay. I, I think the effect is more than just world building. I think it also changes the way the reader interacts with it. Anyway. I've gotta talk about witches, Sarah. Who should read this book?

Sara:

If you like horror novels if you want a horror novel that deals with, the patriarchy and the effects of the patriarchy and sexism and racism in a deeply puritanical setting, fantasy setting and you like witches

Lilly:

See, even the word puritanical, I think, messes it up. Because that is a specific phrase for religions on Earth. And that's not what this is.

Sara:

but it's, it, it is a very puritanical, like, society. Practicing or affecting strict religious or moral behavior.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

Like, it's puritanical. Sure,

Lilly:

Alright. But in a world where there are no puritans, that word wouldn't happen.

Sara:

maybe they wouldn't call it puritanical, but we as the reader can because that's what it is.

Lilly:

Fair. Okay. We gotta talk about cool witch shit. Let's go.. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Sara:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they get free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support!

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Okay, up top. Normally I would say this is me as a reader, but the book also brought me there. I refused to believe that the witches were straight up bad guys. I did not care. I did not care what the book was telling me. I was like, no. And then the book was like, yeah, I know. I,

Sara:

Okay. So, so hear me out. I agree that the book. whispers it. I don't, I don't think that the book goes far enough. I, like, I don't, I don't think the book really commits to the idea that the witches are just women who were done bad by society or by the men in their lives. And I, I don't think that it leans in hard enough on the idea that they, are just trying to get vengeance on the society that wronged them in a way that is justified.

Lilly:

okay, I think the reason why I'm not entirely on your side is because I'm like, how much of that is just me being like, but I want the witches to be good guys. And so I don't trust myself. Because yeah, obviously, I spent the whole time going, when we gonna get the twist that they're actually great.

Sara:

I

Lilly:

Never came.

Sara:

I, okay, okay. I was expecting that we would get that twist too, and I think we get it a little bit differently. in the scene where Emmanuel is pulled into the lake by I think that was Delilah. we see the faces of all of these women who have been victimized by this society.

Lilly:

Mhm.

Sara:

And I think that's trying to get at the idea that these women are seeking vengeance for themselves and seeking vengeance for them. And then they just kind of turn out to be And I was a little disappointed.

Lilly:

Well, I think at the end of the book, Emanuel had to go through I think the book wanted well, Henderson, who wrote the book, wanted Emanuel to go through a character arc where she decided that instead of vengeance, she wanted change. And therefore, the witches became sort of the emblem for seeking vengeance rather than actionable change. And I agree that I don't think that worked great for the witches, but it did work well for Emmanuel's plot arc, character arc.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably what it was going for, but I would have liked it to be a little clearer. Like, I'm just saying that I wanted it to be a little clearer that the witches had a very clear reason for being here. Being like they were and we don't and we don't get enough of that to make that comparison between Emmanuel seeking Change and the which is just seeking justice just seeking vengeance Work entirely for me

Lilly:

There's the one line of dialogue when Ezra, the son of the prophet and his heir, who has actually been helping Emmanuel the whole time. He wants to kill the prophet at the end, and Emmanuel is like, yes, that just makes you like them though. And so I think that was the book going, here is the connection. The problem I had was the way vengeance was handled, just as a concept punishing an entire society, a whole ass city, because The rulers at the top are shitty, is like, so obviously flawed. And I think Emanuel thinks about that to herself a little bit. Like, she agrees that the witches are justified, but they shouldn't be murdering children because of it. But we don't actually I don't

Sara:

oh, okay. Okay here hear me out hear

Lilly:

Mm hmm,

Sara:

I I think That there needed to be more of a progression for the witches, not necessarily something that we saw on the page, but something that we heard about, where you can see why they turned from vengeance against the people in power to vengeance against entire society and, and how they've been twisted by seeing women preyed upon over the ages, right? And, and that would get you kind of to the point where you can recognize, yes, they're, they have a point. They, they're coming from a place of like understanding. And so they're not the bad guys, but they're doing it in the wrong way. Whereas they kind of just end up villains because. They're just wholesale slaughtering people.

Lilly:

I didn't, okay, I mean, they were also bad guys, but they were sympathetic bad guys.

Sara:

I just wanted them to be a little more, like, I didn't, I didn't want them to be less bad. I wanted to, there to be more understanding as to why they got so bad.

Lilly:

You wanted to see their arc.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, I agree with

Sara:

actually.

Lilly:

So when I really liked, actually, the gray area that they inhabited, because they weren't villains, but they were antagonists. they were extremely sympathetic, I thought. And I thought that was very good. But, yeah, the mushiness of they were completely justified because obviously, they were murdered And therefore they're going to punish people who just live nearby. Needed, I think, better handling, more information, or like you said, a clearer slide from, Hey, I'm doing something completely justifiable, down to, I am unhinged and going nuts.

Sara:

yeah, I, I just, it needed, it needed more handling. I don't necessarily know if I would say better handling because I think that Henderson handled everything really well, but it needed more handling.

Lilly:

Okay, that's perfect because I also stumbled over saying that because I was like, this isn't right. But. I feel like the last quarter of the book felt a little rushed, and I think that is part of it.

Sara:

Yes, I would, I would agree with that.

Lilly:

Which is wild. The first half didn't feel slow. Maybe just because I was really, really vibing with what it was putting down. But then I got to the end, and I was like, that's all there's left? How is that possible? Like, there is so much that we haven't discussed, and oh, we're not going to discuss it. Okay. So I think that is maybe where the witches deserved better.

Sara:

So, looking on Goodreads, there is going to be a sequel,

Lilly:

Oh, I don't, I don't know if I like that.

Sara:

I don't know how I feel about that either. And Goodreads is not actually giving me any information. well, Amazon thinks the publication date is January 2nd, 2079.

Lilly:

Well, she's got some plans.

Sara:

So, So, so I don't, I don't, I take it all back. I don't know what's happening, but

Lilly:

So won't a sequel just be the like post war administrative bullshit? The, the crown duel versus court duel? Yes, I'm going to use that as a, as a descriptor and I'm not going to give any context. Everyone just has to go read those books. By Sherwood Smith could do it. so, like, now she's just doing, like, political intrigue. I was like, how, how could that possibly follow up this book?

Sara:

yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure how a sequel would work. And I'm not actually sure that that has any bearing on what you were talking about before I derailed the conversation to say that there was a sequel, apparently.

Lilly:

No, but that's much more important. It, I rarely say I think a book should have been longer, but I do think just an extra 50 pages on the back half to give us a little bit more. Honestly, a lot of The Witch's characterization is Is Emmanuel making assumptions based on her mother's journal or a dream she had? I was kind of upset that her dream ended up being true. Like, what the fuck?

Sara:

I mean, we, we know that she has these powers, so I wasn't that mad about it. That,

Lilly:

I also the first plague Was blood the first part of the curse that her mother brought down on this society was blood. And Emmanuel was like, oh shit, me getting my first period in the forest started this. So if I go back to the forest and bleed, it will end it. And I was like, what

Sara:

that seemed

Lilly:

kind of logic is that?

Sara:

that seemed like a leap of logic that I did not understand.

Lilly:

Why wouldn't that just start a second curse? At the time she didn't know that it was her mother's. This is us bringing information in from the end of the book, but also, yeah, why did that work?

Sara:

Okay, so, so my and I feel like it probably should have been explained a little bit better in the book. I feel like this goes hand in hand with our talking about how the back half of the book was felt a little rushed. My headcanon is that it didn't work. It just happened to coincide with when the first plague was ending naturally.

Lilly:

I, honestly, I think the book agrees with you, too. Because later in the book, the narrator, er, not the narrator, the narration says that the coming of a new plague means that the previous plague ended. And so when darkness falls, Emmanuel is like, Oh, thank goodness, that means that the blight is over. And so I was like, Oh, well, if it's the new plague that's ending the last one, then your whole forest shenanigans did nothing.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't, and I think that maybe could have been a little bit clearer, but I, I don't think that her forest shenanigans did anything. The thing that I. wanted to know more about was Ezra's first vision that he has when he helps her while she's trying to stop this blood plague. And we don't learn any anything about that.

Lilly:

nothing. So Ezra, okay. Like how I spent the entire first half of the book going, Obviously the prophet sucks and the witches are great. Wasn't totally true, but I was on to something.

Sara:

The prophet dud suck.

Lilly:

He did suck, and the witches were pretty great. They were a little sloppy with their targeting. But otherwise, they were

Sara:

do you, why do you sound like you're talking about ad campaigns?

Lilly:

Oh, I do sound like that, don't I? That's not what I had in my head, but I guess that's just all I got. They need better data so they can target their audience better. So they aren't wasting impressions and curses on people who aren't gonna, like, matter.

Sara:

Anyway.

Lilly:

uploaded a first party data list then everything would have been fine and then everyone would have celebrated them for being right. Okay, I'm done now.

Sara:

Anyway, Ezra.

Lilly:

He's introduced as the charming love interest. And I was like, mm mm, nope, gonna betray her, just a matter of time. Doesn't, actually.

Sara:

He's actually a pretty stand up guy.

Lilly:

Yeah,

Sara:

I was, I was expecting there to be a little more conflict there. I'm glad there wasn't, to be clear. Like, I was very happy for him to be supportive and, and care for her, but I did expect him to be a little more indoctrinated, given that he is the heir to the prophet. I

Lilly:

forbidden books and is like, Maybe. The doctrine isn't actually always right. And my notes are, it's a trap! It wasn't, he actually believed it. But I was so sure that as soon as it stopped benefiting him. Like, because everyone can be edgy. But he actually walked the walk. But I think he is what made this feel less horror to me. Him being like a, a true ally and partner for Emmanuelle. I mean, they're not together, but they clearly like each other.

Sara:

mean, they're together by the end of the book. Also nope, nope, this felt like true horror the entire time for me.

Lilly:

Hehehehehehe. It, looking him not betraying her at any point makes me go, well, Is this actually just a romance in a dark fantasy setting?

Sara:

Okay, okay, but when I said that about About bones, about within these dark abodes, or from these dark abodes, or whatever, whatever dark abodes was. You gave me so much shit.

Lilly:

so different!

Sara:

It's not! It's

Lilly:

Yes it

Sara:

not! Just because there is a romance plotline, doesn't mean this isn't true. Horror. That's the exact same argument you used with me. Yes. Yes. And I was, no, no, no, no. I was wrong about Bones. You were wrong about this.

Lilly:

The difference

Sara:

No. No.

Lilly:

bones themselves were intended as a horror aspect of that story. And so just because it didn't scare you doesn't mean that that aspect wasn't intended as horror. The Ezra romance

Sara:

But that,

Lilly:

not intended as horror.

Sara:

but that doesn't make this book not a horror book.

Lilly:

I mean, I'm not arguing with that part, but I'm saying that those are two very different situations.

Sara:

Mm, I don't think, I don't think there is difference.

Lilly:

wholesome romance does undercut the horror. Adding bones does not undercut horror.

Sara:

Adding a sweet, wholesome romance does not undercut the horror of this novel.

Lilly:

Okay, that I accept, but those are two very different statements.

Sara:

I don't think they're as different, I don't think they're as different as you're arguing. Anyway,

Lilly:

If all the water turned into bones instead of blood.

Sara:

no, that would still be pretty horrifying.

Lilly:

Okay, hmm, I

Sara:

but I also kind of expected Leia,

Lilly:

think it's

Sara:

Emanuel's, Leah, Emanuel's friend to turn on her once she was married to the prophet as well.

Lilly:

Interesting, I did not get that vibe at all.

Sara:

Just, I, like, I was just expecting that the best friend was gonna be catty,

Lilly:

Hmm, interesting.

Sara:

and she wasn't. Instead, she turns out to be horribly abused.

Lilly:

I think that's the difference. The prophet was clearly not a good husband to his many wives. And so her marrying him is just like, well now she's a victim and she just doesn't realize it yet. Well, except she did realize it because apparently he'd been abusing her since she was a child.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

That reveal was like, oh no.

Sara:

That, that reveal was pretty terrifying. I guess I didn't necessarily think that she would turn out to be terrible of her own volition, but I thought there was going to be some kind of like brainwashing or something going on.

Lilly:

Interesting, I can see that. I think this cult was too far gone.

Sara:

Yeah, I like, to be, to be clear, it doesn't happen.

Lilly:

no, yeah. I could see like if it was an early cult. And therefore, the chosen few, the inner circle, do have to have real perks, otherwise, why would anyone buy into it? However, this has been going on for generations, and so they don't need that carrot. It can all be stick, they don't need a carrot. Oh, there was a line, oh my god, I do need to read this. This has, this is not actually a spoiler comment but it, made me laugh pretty hard. One sec, it was near the beginning. One of the apostles was hot, and Emmanuel imagined he might have been quite handsome in his day, and she knew that he had the wives to prove it, except that the wives didn't have a choice. It's not like a bunch of women were like, yes, please also marry me because you're really hot. Like, no, this is just, that was such a good example of her indoctrination in the narrative being so clearly incorrect. Because we see the prophet just choosing girls who, well I mean, Emmanuel is one of them at the very end, although that's a little bit different. They like being special, but they don't want to marry him. It has nothing to do with him being attractive or desirable. That was just such a funny line to me.

Sara:

And they also have no say in the matter.

Lilly:

Yeah, it's not like, yeah, him having a lot of wives does not show how desirable he is. That just shows how powerful he is.

Sara:

Yes. Yes.

Lilly:

had to highlight it, and there's nothing there except that, that, that line happened, and I laughed at it. Ugh, okay, so, we kind of talked about this in the non spoiler section, but it was probably a bad conversation because we couldn't actually talk about it.

Sara:

This is, this is a book that. I think is very hard to have a non spoiler conversation about.

Lilly:

Mostly because Emmanuel's character arc of like, being completely indoctrinated to discovering her mother's True story. And, I mean, she really believes in the father, the, like, God figure, until the very end. And she's finally like, hey, maybe, maybe the religion's a little broken. And her discovering that Okay, actually, I'm saying that now. Her discovering that was good. I'm glad for her. But the other thing that bothered me about the ending that made it feel rushed that the prophet promises her that he will let Ezra go free if she marries him. And she's like, yes, okay, great. And then Esther says, hey, he's lying. And then Ezra says, He told me the exact opposite. That if I died, he would let you go free. And then she's like, Oh, he must have been lying all along. And then she goes through with it, and then as soon as she says she'll marry him, he's like, Great, let's go kill Ezra. And she's shocked. And it's like, Didn't No, you just had like three epiphanies that he was lying to you. How, how is this still a shock? I don't understand. That felt very rushed.

Sara:

also like he says that he will free Ezra and I can see why she thinks that means he's going to let him go. Anyone with any kind of brain can tell that he means that he's going to free him from this mortal coil

Lilly:

Well, yeah, she's a bad negotiator, but also her grandmother, her white grandmother, Martha, pulled the same thing on her when she was like, I will, well, she almost used the exact same phrasing too. Like, I'll let you go, or I'll let you be free, and then tattles on Emanuel and is like, well, yeah, because you had to be absolved in order to be free. And so the fact that she hasn't picked up on that by then was like, come on. That made it feel like that only happened to move the plot along.

Sara:

It, it did feel like there could have been a. slightly better way to resolve that if there had been slightly more page length.

Lilly:

Or, cut out the kissy scene with Ezra, and now you know I'm a P. O. D. person because I'm saying they should cut out the kissy scene.

Sara:

Who are you and what have you done with my cousin?

Lilly:

The romance was too wholesome for this story. Ezra was too good of a guy, he didn't feel real.

Sara:

I don't, I mean, I didn't care about the romance just because I'm not usually a romance person but I didn't feel like it detracted from the novel or anything.

Lilly:

Well, until the part where he looks her in the eyes and says, My father is lying to you and is going to kill me. And then she's like, I'm gonna go through with my plan and then everything will be fine. And is shocked when his father was lying to her and is going to kill him.

Sara:

That's not a problem with the romance, that's a problem with her developing selective amnesia.

Lilly:

Well, if they hadn't had that scene, then there wouldn't be a problem. It could just be her not listening to Esther, Ezra's mother. And that I could understand. But she has Too many epiphanies to be, like, surprised. I don't know. It we just needed 50 more pages

Sara:

We did need 50 more pages.

Lilly:

in the back half. I didn't need 50 more pages of description of, you know, This, like, idyllic city and how great it is to be completely controlled by the Prophet. I don't know. This book was interesting. A lot of my notes are Well, but actually I didn't mind that much. It's fascinating for a novel to butt up against so many of my Weird, personal bugaboos. Because not pet peeve, that's different from a bugaboo. But not actually step over the line of any of them. So I'm like, ooh, I'm recognizing that this is a thing that you're interacting with. But you did it just right, so I'm okay with it. But I did spend the entire book going, Hmmmm. But I enjoyed it.

Sara:

I think, I think that's fascinating. I don't have anything to say about it, but I think it's fascinating.

Lilly:

Itty! There are so many components of this book that I have complained at length about in other books. But Henderson did the exact right way to make me not hate it. But I was aware of it the whole time.

Sara:

I think it's a really well done book. I didn't enjoy it, but that's because it was very much a horror novel and I'm very much not a horror person. But I thought it was a very good book.

Lilly:

Oh, it was. I will say I enjoyed every minute of it. I know we talked about the witches kind of getting the short end of the stick, but at the same time, I was so glad that they weren't bad guys. I was so glad. I was so glad that they weren't the villain. That's all I needed.

Sara:

I still think that it was too ambiguous. Should have been clearer.

Lilly:

It was in close third person. There was no Satan. And the witches weren't the ultimate baddies.

Sara:

That's very, that's very true.

Lilly:

Ugh. You have not seen the, well, the Vvvitch. The witch is the name of the movie, but they spell it with two Vs, and so I insist on saying Vvvitch.

Sara:

No, I have not seen The Witch or The Vavitch.

Lilly:

It has kind of similar Vibes. It takes place in the real world, which automatically makes it less good. But sort of similar tone, except the, the witch gets her powers from Satan and she's the bad guy at the end. I just spoiled the vvvitch. It's been out for enough years. I don't care.

Sara:

It came out in 2015.

Lilly:

that's almost a decade. So I'm allowed to spoil it. But that movie I also spent the whole time going. Okay, so when's the twist gonna happen? Didn't. So I, I really think this book was like, Hey Lily, you know that story you really wanted? About a, about a patriarchal society. In the Vivica's case, it was a family. And in this case, it's a whole like city. And they're really mean to the witch for no reason. And you know how that's wrong. Here you go. This one's for you. And I appreciated that a lot. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, although really only nominally. We're much more on blue sky. We're also on TOK at fiction fans pod. You can also email us at fiction fans pod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara:

Bye.