Fiction Fans

Books of Blood vol 1 by Clive Barker

• Episode 159

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Lilly drags Sara into hell with their first Spooky Month book -- Books of Blood volume 1, by Clive Barker. They discuss the collection of short stories as a whole, and some of the appeal (and repulsion) of horror as a genre. They also talk about each story, going over the ones that freaked them out the most (Lilly's favorite, Sara's least favorite) and the ones that freaked them out the least (Lilly's least favorite, Sara's most bearable).


Content Warnings:

Death, Animal Death, Underage Relationships, Self Harm, Suicide, Cannbalism 


Stories:

The Books of Blood

The Midnight Meat Train

The Yattering and Jack

Sex, Death and Starshine

In the Hills, the Cities



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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Darkest Child by Kevin MacLeod

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books made out of skin, too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I, I, I guess it is, it is spooky month.

Lilly:

Oh, we are starting you off, like, right in the deep end with The Books of Blood Volume 1 by Clive Barker.

Sara:

Yep, yep.

Lilly:

But before we dive in to this delightful romp

Sara:

The faces I'm making right now. Listener.

Lilly:

Well, that sounds like a ghost moaning from my end. Very timely.

Sara:

I think it was just a motorcycle.

Lilly:

Yeah, probably, but that's less fun.

Sara:

It, I guess that depends on your definition.

Lilly:

Well, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I'm gonna be a little cheesy and say that playing Baldur's Gate 3 with you has been my good thing for this week.

Lilly:

That's gonna be my good thing, too, so we can be cheesy together.

Sara:

okay. But yeah, we've, been streaming that in our Discord Lily is playing and I'm backseat driving and it's been a lot of fun. For me, anyway.

Lilly:

Well, it's been fun for me, too. I love the game so much, but I've played it so much. That trying to decide what kind of run I want to do has become, like, difficult. So having you to make those decisions has been great. And I hope I haven't spoiled too many things for you.

Sara:

Oh, you've not spoiled anything that I haven't spoiled for myself.

Lilly:

Excellent. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

The Books of Blood felt like a red wine kind of book to me. So that's what I'm drinking.

Lilly:

Hell yeah. I'm drinking herbal tea. It's called Caramel Apple Dream, which sounds much more exciting than it actually is. So I had to improve it a little bit with whipped cream and caramel drizzle on top.

Sara:

Interesting. I'm not sure that's what I would do with, that. Well, I probably wouldn't be drinking a tea called that in the first

Lilly:

Yeah, you don't

Sara:

to be honest. No, it's not the herbal tea. I don't like fruit teas and I don't like sweet teas.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, it's not sweet. There's no sugar in it. Except for the caramel drizzle I added on top.

Sara:

right. But something that, calls itself caramel apple is going to be too sweet for, for my taste.

Lilly:

Well, it's okay. It's pretty weak, even if you let it steep for a long time. So,

Sara:

I'm glad that you've doctored it.

Lilly:

It smells, I would say, better than it actually tastes, and it smells like fall, which is where we are officially now, yay! Now we have to cling to this for as long as we can before winter starts. Well, have you read anything besides Books of Blood Volume 1 recently?

Sara:

I've been reading our next podcast book, but that doesn't count. But no, I've not read anything because someone has gotten me hooked on Baldur's Gate 3, which kind of takes away from my reading time.

Lilly:

It won a Hugo, it counts!

Sara:

It does, but it still takes away from my reading time.

Lilly:

It does, and I'm sorry. The first of many apologies I will be issuing to you this evening.

Sara:

Yeah, this was no shade to Clive Barker, but this was not the book for me.

Lilly:

No, I mean, I think that means he did his job very well, actually.

Sara:

Actually. Yes. Yes.

Lilly:

I guess my answer to that question very quickly is Books of Blood Volume 2.

Sara:

That is not my answer.

Lilly:

So, right off the top, we have been doing Spooky Month for a couple of years now. We've read a wide range of novels that we have declared quote unquote spooky. This collection of short stories, Ain't no Camp Damascus. is an ooey gooey horror collection, and thank you, and I'm sorry, number two.

Sara:

Yeah, some of, some of our spooky month books I have more or less enjoyed. Even though spooky books or horror is not my genre. But I was making a face the entire time I read this book. It was yeah, not for me. Very much not for me. I

Lilly:

So we actually ended up shuffling around our books for this season. This was supposed to be quite a bit later on, I think. Do you think it was better to get it out of the way early? Because now, no spooky month book is gonna be this bad.

Sara:

mean, I'm hoping that's the case. I'm not sure that I'm quite as sanguine about that possibility as you, but

Lilly:

true. I guess I don't remember what we have listed, but I know that our definition of spooky is pretty loose.

Sara:

It's pretty loose, and it It does cater to my horror tolerances quite a bit. So you're right. This is a lot more on your side of the reading spectrum than I think some of the books that we'll be reading are.

Lilly:

Mean, we've kept spooky as a pretty undefined notion on purpose. We tend to go more like, oh, it's eerie, or oh, there is a ghost in it. But I thought, you know, we should have at least one entry that is just true blue, balls to the wall, horror.

Sara:

Clive Barker is A big name in the genre, and I think there's value in reading big names in the genre.

Lilly:

Absolutely classic, if you will. I did consider having us do Hellbound Heart. For this book, instead of his collection of short stories, one of his collections of short stories, which is the book that Hellraiser was based on, and it's extra fascinating because he wrote The Hellbound Heart and he at least directed Hellraiser. He might have written and directed it. So, like, just that interaction of story across formats, I think is really interesting, and I might bring it up in the future. In a I'll give you a year off, but I might bring it back up.

Sara:

I, so, the thing about that is that yes, I think that's a very interesting interaction. I think it would make for a fascinating discussion. I'm not sure that I could both read the book and watch the movie.

Lilly:

That's fine. I can do the movie part

Sara:

Okay, like I'm willing to read the book but I don't know if I could do both. What I want to do is read some of his fantasy works.

Lilly:

Yeah, so I actually I read the foreword written by him in 1998 for my, like, collection of the Books of Blood volumes. And It, he starts right off with, It's kind of a bummer that I'm just the Halloween guy and no one cares about anything else that I've done. So, as I have apologized to Sarah, I am now obligated to apologize to Mr. Barker. But, yep.

Sara:

Maybe, maybe we can add one of his fantasy books to the calendar next year.

Lilly:

I would love that. Cause it, it's not that he is only horror. It's just that, Horror is only him. Maybe that's, and it's not only him, but like, when I think of classic horror, especially literary, I think of him.

Sara:

I mean, he's a big name in the genre, that doesn't mean that's all he writes,

Lilly:

Well, I've read some of his other novels that I think are, mean, nowhere near this end of the horror spectrum. They're still probably considered horror because there's some monsters, there's some sexual assault, and you know, they're freaky. They freak you out. Which I think I have decided is part of my definition of horror is freaks you out. Vague, yes, also accurate. But it's really interesting seeing, like, even in this collection, some of the stories were just, like, slasher gore. And then some of them were much more conceptual. And still gory, but also conceptual.

Sara:

There, there was a wide variety of types of horror in this collection. Yes.

Lilly:

Especially love short stories as a format for horror.

Sara:

So do I, but I

Lilly:

for a different reason.

Sara:

I suspect for very different reasons. My reason is that it means that they're over sooner.

Lilly:

Thinkwell, also this might just be think worldbuilding really gets in the way of horror, or it can, in a way that it doesn't necessarily for other genres. And like, I don't need to know the origin of demons on Earth. Don't care what all the rules are. I only need to know what's relevant right now. And so, in a short story, An author can get away with being much more focused on what they're trying to do and not get caught up in the, Heh, but what language do demons speak?

Sara:

Interesting that you say that because I don't necessarily think that that's horror specific. I

Lilly:

shines because of it. And when you get longer form horror, I think, as either, the world building is either done shitty or bogs down the scariness. More often. And that's

Sara:

guess I don't read enough horror to be able to comment on how that compares with other genres. Specifically.

Lilly:

And that's not, like, a blanket rule by any means I mean, I like long form horror as well. It's just something that I've noticed, I think.

Sara:

That makes sense.

Lilly:

When I was trying to decide which collection to have you read, to force you to read, to Yeah, anyway there's a story later that's literally called Dread.

Sara:

You mean in one of these volumes of the Books of Blood?

Lilly:

Yes. But, this volume, A, it starts with Book of Blood. Which is like a really fun meta introduction to the series. Or not, it's not a series, they're unconnected short stories. But there is sort of a, a concept around it. but there are some really neat concepts that get brought up. It's not just Serial killer shit.

Sara:

It's not. I mean, there was a lot of gore.

Lilly:

There is a ton of gore.

Sara:

There was a lot of gore. There was too much gore for me.

Lilly:

Yeah, this is not the book for you, and thank you for indulging

Sara:

It's not. I mean, I tend to set our calendar the rest of the year. Obviously you have veto power, but usually it's me going, hey, I want to read this book. Let's read this book. So it is only fair that there's at least one month where you can read, where you can have more of a say,

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, our tastes overlap quite a bit, though. And so it's not You don't usually go out of your way to pick a book that you know I won't like.

Sara:

except in the case of Kushiel's Dart.

Lilly:

Okay. Well, even that was not on purpose.

Sara:

No, that was not on purpose. Although the sequel was, but you ended up liking the sequel, not the sequel, but the

Lilly:

The retelling.

Sara:

The retelling from Jocelyn's point of view. You ended up liking that for the most part, more than the original.

Lilly:

That's true, yes. but in this case I did choose this specifically so that you would have a bad time. End. I'm sorry.

Sara:

It's okay. I have broadened my education in horror.

Lilly:

Now, this is an anthology of short stories. Normally, we wouldn't have a spoiler section in this case. And, in fact, our non spoiler conversation has been very short. But, I do think, because it's horror, There is something so, I'm gonna say delightful again, and I know you argue with that. Part of the joy for me in reading horror is the, kind of the mystery aspect of it, finding out what is going on, or what the answer is, or You know, your main characters have been tormented across several pages. Like, why? The why of it? And I don't want to ruin that for anyone who does not want to have that ruined. It's going to be a collective spoiler section for all of the short stories. So, yeah, it's all or nothing. But,

Sara:

I mean, I actually think that having a spoiler section for this is good for a different reason, mainly that it gives us an opportunity to build in our content warnings instead of you having to record them afterwards.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

there's a lot of gore there's death, there's animal death, it's a horror collection and it goes very hard on things that are not comfortable to read, so.

Lilly:

cannibalism, there's Is it cannibalism? Well, there's kind of cannibalism. I'm gonna throw it in there. There are uncomfortable relationships, which is both overstating and understating it at the same time and being no help at all for someone who's trying to figure out if it would be terrible for them. I don't think there's any sexual assault in this collection.

Sara:

no, I don't think so.

Lilly:

There's sexual content. In occasionally violent settings, but it's not the act being violent, it's not, there's not consent stuff,

Sara:

I was, that was just what I was going to say. The issue around that is not that it's not consent.

Lilly:

yeah. But there's like awful power dynamics in a couple of them.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Hello, future Lily here. We forgot a very important content warning, which is self-harm slash suicide. There will be quite a bit of discussion about that content in this book or in this short story. In the next section wanted to give you all a heads up. it makes the reader uncomfortable. It freaks you out,

Sara:

again, I was making a face the entire time I read this collection.

Lilly:

Yeah. I did think it was pretty funny, all of the quotes on the back of, or, my collection anyway, are the vaguest, blandest things. They're all just like, oh, it's so scary, bro. Every single one. It doesn't tell you anything about what you're actually getting yourself into. And I guess that's hard with a short story collection, but still.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, especially one that is as varied as this

Lilly:

well, before we dive into the spoiler section, who should read this book? I would say if you have a strong constitution and enjoy being freaked out

Sara:

yeah, if you like horror particularly, the gory kind, which I know we've said that this is not all gory horror, but there's a lot of that in there. And I think that you will be better served reading this collection if you do enjoy that than if you don't.

Lilly:

yes. It's very visceral. Like, the descriptions, there's a description of a guy getting knocked around by poltergeists Barker describes his floppy penis flopping around. Like, it was not a sexual context at all in that moment. But yeah, if you're getting thrown around your penis would probably also be flopping.

Sara:

It's true.

Lilly:

But he he joins that. There's a lot of taboos, including combining thoughts of sex and violent situations there's a reason why he's a classic. And not because. It's a fun, cozy read. But if you do want to cuddle up under a blanket with a hot beverage on a cold, dark day and maybe not go to sleep the first time I read this, I was up until like 4am because I was like, I could just lay here with my eyes closed, or I could read the next one.

Sara:

Did not have that problem. I was like, I'm not going to read the next one. I have finished. Thank God.

Lilly:

Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about these in a little bit more specifics, huh?

Sara:

This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Sara:

Okay, now I will ask do you have a favorite story in this collection?

Lilly:

I think it has to be The Yattering and Jack. Because I find it conceptually so interesting, and I love how it leans more on that than trying to freak you out in a horror collection. It really shows range, I would say. But, the one that lingers with me the most, and so freaks me out the most, is definitely Pigblood Blues. The image of the pig possessed by the dead kid eating the main character alive was a lot.

Sara:

It is a lot. Yeah, it's a lot.

Lilly:

And just the letter that the other kid writes, that he asks the main character, the new teacher at the detention facility to give to his mother because, It'll be censored and not sent if he sends it normally. It's so sad. Just so matter of fact, like, they're gonna tell you I ran away, but it's not true, mama. They fed me to the pig. It's just like

Sara:

I mean Yeah, yeah. Except that he's also kind of complicit in everything that happens, so. His letter lost a little bit of power for me after that.

Lilly:

Well, he doesn't end up getting eaten, and so he ends up on the side of the pig, yeah. I don't remember the kid's name that possesses the pig. another reason why I loved that one is how long it strings along the main character slash reader, where you're not sure if it's just, like, mass hysteria. And all of the boys in this detention facility and some of the teachers have just decided that this pig can talk. And the main character's pretty sure that they're all just crazy but then it turns out that no. The young man who hung himself does in fact possess the pig.

Sara:

he does. And it's kind of interesting, because I was never, like, I was not ever thinking that it was going to be mass hysteria.

Lilly:

No, I mean, these stories are all very, like, supernatural anchored. But I liked that that was a question for the main character. Or not even a question, but I liked that there was that ambiguity in the text.

Sara:

I mean, I think it's understandable that the main character does not initially jump to the conclusion that there's something supernatural going on. Even if we as the reader obviously know that there's going to be.

Lilly:

yeah. you have a favorite or a least terrible story?

Sara:

Possibly The Yattering and Jack, which I think that I've read before. Because, and I had not read anything else in this collection, definitely. But I started that story and I was like, I know this. And that feeling. stayed with me through the end of the story. I'm not sure when I would have read it or where I would have read it or how I would have read it. But I do think that I have read it. I liked that a lot except for the collateral damage that occurs while Jack is trying to basically outlast and outwit the Yattering. Namely all of his cats that he just lets the Yattering kill. And then also his daughter. Like, couldn't he have gone out to lunch with them and been like, Hey guys, there's something a little wonky going on. I can't really talk about it, or maybe I'll talk about it as long as you pretend that you don't know about it. I feel like, he didn't have to just completely leave them in the dark.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

Sara:

So, and that doesn't end up very well for him. So that, didn't enjoy. Or that aspect of the story I didn't enjoy. I did like Sex, Death, and Starshine just because I enjoy the theater.

Lilly:

That one's also like, okay, I guess, I guess there's a little bit of zombies. But other than that's not horror at all.

Sara:

I would say it's definitely horror.

Lilly:

a couple of murders.

Sara:

There's some gruesome murders. There are zombies. It's definitely horror, but you're right, it's on the lighter side of things. Which is why I liked it also.

Lilly:

Yeah, I really loved that image at the end of It's the theater's last show before it gets torn down and turned into apartments or something awful. And so, a dead couple who had performed on the stage in its heyday, like, bring all the zombies to watch. And so it's just this entire audience of zombies, or undead, not zombies, but you know. And just that moment of, the show goes well, these kind of, if not C list actors just having an amazing performance and the audience being super into it for like the first time. And

Sara:

I mean, they're,

Lilly:

and good. And,

Sara:

community theater actors. With the exception of the star that they get who doesn't even perform because she gets killed by one of the zombies for being just terrible at it. I, so my thing with this is that it could have been a really cute story and I would have liked it a lot had there been a little less graphic murder.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, even everyone could have died if it had just not been on screen and I think you would have liked it a lot more.

Sara:

Yes. if it had not been quite so descriptive in how people died, if that had been hand waved away a little bit more, it would have been more for me.

Lilly:

And I think that's Why I like this collection so much is that even when Barker is writing a story that's not even about the horror. Like, this story ends with a roving band of undead theater, like, performers doing a traveling show for all the cemeteries.

Sara:

Which I love! That is a great concept! Like, A fantastic, would read, except that everything else is just a little too gruesome for me.

Lilly:

Yeah, which I like because it's, feel like you do get stories where people die and it kind of, like you said, it glosses over it and That makes it less intense and also, in some way, that cheapens the deaths, right? Like, if a character is going through these awful things, I'm not gonna say you owe it to them to see it, but,

Sara:

I think for me, what would have made this story entirely to my taste and it would have removed it from being horror entirely, is that the deaths are not purposeful.

Lilly:

hmm,

Sara:

Like, something happens and the theater burns down and some of the actors die, or all of the actors die but the theater is not intentionally set on fire to kill the actors so that they have people who will come and perform in this troupe.

Lilly:

interesting.

Sara:

But, again, that takes away all of the horror elements of the story.

Lilly:

It's fascinating, right? Because that is the exact same plot, but a completely different story.

Sara:

Yes, and that is a very cute, sweet book.

Lilly:

Did you have a least favorite?

Sara:

Everything else,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I'm really very much not a gore person. And everything else has a lot of gore in it. So they were not for me.

Lilly:

Funny enough, we probably would land on the same least favorite, which for me is Midnight Meat Train. I know it's the famous one that's been turned into a movie, but I think it's the weakest in the collection.

Sara:

How so?

Lilly:

concept doesn't tie together as well as the other ones do. Like, it introduces this idea that, oh, there's an underground shadow government of cannibals who need to be fed and they're the ones actually pulling all of the strings in New York City. But that's the reveal after we just see, like, one random guy murdering people? And how is there not an organized cover up? How is it just one guy acting alone if it's the entire shadow government depending on him? Like, it doesn't linger in the same way as the other stories do because it doesn't hold up when you think about it longer. And I'm not saying that, like, Pigblood Blues is perfectly logical. That story is nonsense. But it's nonsense in a way that my brain chews on. Instead of Pulse Apart.

Sara:

I mean, I think it has a little more internal cohesion. I agree with you there. I did like the concept of some kind of personification of the city. I wasn't necessarily viewing it as a shadow government, but

Lilly:

that's my shorthand for not bothering to read. They're called the Fathers of the City.

Sara:

right. And I was, viewing it as some kind of personification of how the city can, or cities in general, can take people in and chew them up a little bit.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And that is,, a good concept. It was also, I believe, written when crime was really high in New York City. So I think that there's definitely some cohesion there. But think it leans too hard on the metaphor. Now, the scene where the original killer is like, Gettin ready for his day, and he's just like, a lame middle aged man. The like, ordinariness of him preparing his murder and butchery compared to the really graphic and awful violence that he enacts on people I think was like a very good unsettling not comparison, but

Sara:

Juxtaposition.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean I still really like it. I really like this whole collection, but I do think Midnight Meat Train is the weakest

Sara:

agree with you that it's probably conceptually the weakest. I don't necessarily think that it was my least favorite. Like if you gave me a million dollars or even a hundred dollars to choose a least favorite in this collection it, it would probably either be Blues or In The Hills, The Cities. Because of how that imagery Lingered more and how unsettling and, more coherent some of the internal logic was. So I guess in that sense, I'm not disagreeing with you, right? Because my reasons for why they're my least favorite are why they're better than, Midnight Meat Train.

Lilly:

Yeah, Pigblood Blues is so unsettling and makes me deeply uncomfortable, and there's so much going on, and there's like, it just kind of throws in the accusation that the main character, like, he's the shop teacher, he's the new shop teacher at the detention facility for juvenile delinquents, not even delinquents, they're all like, considered past redemption, right? they've done horrible, awful things, they're like 14 to 17 or whatever, and at one point, Another teacher accuses him of being interested in one of the boys. And internally he's just kind of like, Oh, is that why I want to save his life? And I was like, excuse me? What the fuck?

Sara:

It, that's, that's pretty terrible.

Lilly:

It was awful. then it was like, that was the same boy that the, pig boy. I should remember those characters names, but I don't at all. Had been obsessed with. before he killed himself. And like, there's something going on there. Like, why is this one kid such the object of desire? And that makes me start thinking, and like, I, don't like any of it.

Sara:

I didn't think that it was the boy who killed himself who was obsessed with the remaining boy. I thought it was the remaining boy was obsessed with the boy who killed himself.

Lilly:

Well, everyone was obsessed with the boy who killed himself. But also, the boy who killed himself, like the, the headmistress, she's not, is she the headmistress? The head teacher woman does say that they had been involved. Although, we're not really

Sara:

they had been friends.

Lilly:

No, she said that they had been together. Before the boy killed himself. But we're not really sure if she's telling the truth, because she was also sleeping with the boy who killed himself. But maybe that's why she hated the first boy so much. Like, I don't want love triangles with teachers and students. But also, it makes me think about it, and I hate that I'm thinking about it.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't wanna think about it. That was, I did not like that story. It was not for me.

Lilly:

Okay, the Yattering and Jack. Other than the awful cat deaths, I love so much that it's about a boring guy who borings his way to victory. It's wonderful.

Sara:

I, the thing I enjoyed about that was the reveal, not at the end, but like near the end, that Jack knew exactly what he was doing. That was a good reveal. And again, if the yattering had been a little less violent towards the living beings in the house. I would have liked this story quite a lot because it's more on the spooky side, but there's also something really humorous about the concept of a demon being sent to torment this person and failing. And, just like the bureaucracy of it felt very Pratchett esque to me. But then there was the cat deaths and the, you know, turning the daughter crazy and that, yeah, I didn't like that bit.

Lilly:

Wasn't necessarily sure that she was all the way crazy. I think she just couldn't handle the events of that night, but we don't see her afterwards. I think she could have recovered. I think she just had a breakdown in reaction to the immediate events.

Sara:

I didn't get the impression that she was going to recover, but it's true. We don't see her afterwards. She could go to therapy and and get better. And I hope she does.

Lilly:

But yeah, I mean, if it weren't for the cats, then I would say that this is like, not even horror.

Sara:

I would say it counts as horror, but on the, milder side of

Lilly:

Okay. It would be so far on the palatable side of

Sara:

It would, be on the spooky side of horror, not the, like, horror side of horror.

Lilly:

Yes. He's a gherkin importer. He is so chill, he defeats the demons.

Sara:

Mean, but he's chill on purpose.

Lilly:

yeah. And you're right, that twist of, Like, being fully aware of what was going on and using the demon's rules against him was just, yeah, I loved that story. It was very good.

Sara:

It was good, except, except that he knowingly buys more cats after his first cat is, like, horribly killed.

Lilly:

Yeah, I do think that there was an aspect of it that he couldn't let the demon know that he knew because then it wouldn't be infuriating, right?

Sara:

that's absolutely the point, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it.

Lilly:

No, yes. But at least it's justified, right? It's not, he's just a monster.

Sara:

he could have only bought one more cat. He didn't have to buy two.

Lilly:

Or he could have switched to goldfish or

Sara:

Or he could have switched to goldfish.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

he could have said out loud something that would justify, like, a, a lower impact pet death.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. Yeah. No, I, I agree. I, that part makes me uncomfortable and I don't like it and that's what makes it a good horror story. Well, the final one that we need to talk about, In the Hills, the Cities.

Sara:

You have a note here that I really, I really don't like.

Lilly:

This is the true reason why I chose this collection. Oh, we haven't even talked about Books of Blood. It's not actually a book. Oh, actually, no, it is interesting. I liked that it went from a fake seance to a real seance. That was a fun flip. And then the idea that this victim has had all of the ghosts carve their death stories into him, he's the book of blood, and then we're reading all the stories that have been carved into him. Is not, like, explicitly stated, but it's kind of implied.

Sara:

Would have liked it more had there not been the weird, uncomfortable between the fake psychic, yeah, and the researcher who was putting on the the study. And then they, they end up kind of together, and it, I just didn't like that.

Lilly:

I hated that she was creeping on him until it turned out that he was faking it all for her attention. And then it was like, oh, you both suck and deserve each other.

Sara:

Mean Yes, but, like, I don't know. I just didn't like it. And the way that he, it talks about him masturbating while he's pretending to be a medium for all of these ghosts passing through.

Lilly:

It was gross. Yeah.

Sara:

yeah, I just, I didn't like it.

Lilly:

That's fair. the ending paragraph of like, we are all books of blood, like, written in blood and our stories are written in us, is such like a beautiful passage. And then the meta aspect of it for the rest of the collection, collections plural, makes me like this better than Midnight Meat Train, but it's probably like second to last on my list.

Sara:

Yeah, I would, I would rate it. About a Midnight Meat Train level of,

Lilly:

There's not a lot going on, but it has enough gems that, like, I really latch on to.

Sara:

yeah, I think, obviously, if I take out how I feel about horror as a whole from my rating, I do think that those two are about equal for me and they are, like, bottom of this collection. Don't know if I would say that one is better than the other. They're about the same for me.

Lilly:

Now, In the Hills, the Cities.

Sara:

Hate, I hate your note. I hate it. I hate it.

Lilly:

We have to work our way up to it. It starts off, most of this is just, like, the crumbling of a relationship between two young men who are going on a road trip through Eastern Europe?

Sara:

Yeah, it's implied they're married. This is their honeymoon.

Lilly:

It does keep using the word honeymoon, but was gay marriage legal?

Sara:

I don't know, but they clearly jumped into things. When they shouldn't have because they have nothing in common.

Lilly:

They're both assholes. They're simply incompatible. Maybe they wouldn't be such assholes if they weren't stuck on a road trip with someone that they clearly didn't enjoy the company of.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And doing all the things on a road trip you shouldn't do, like, criticizing the driver. Just don't criticize the driver on a road trip. Just don't. It's not worth it. And while this is happening, they're driving through, like, was it rural Yugoslavia or something?

Sara:

Something like

Lilly:

Yeah. We're also getting, like, scenes in one of these very rural villages preparing for an annual celebration,

Sara:

It's not annual, it's every ten years.

Lilly:

Ten years, thank you. it's definitely something that they've done before. This is not like a, a fit of

Sara:

It is a regular celebration.

Lilly:

Yeah. Where Everyone in the city ties themselves together into a giant and then another neighboring city or village because it's very small. I guess the title of it is cities, so I forgive myself for saying city, but anyway. And then they have a big giant fight, which is like an absolutely bonkers premise. And

Sara:

It's very bonkers.

Lilly:

is Just like, simply strange, until you get to the descriptions of the workings of these giants. And this year, it goes horribly wrong, and one of them collapses, and then the other one kind of goes berserk. And then when I say one, I mean the city of all of these people working in unison. It is so Cerebral. Like,

Sara:

I hate it.

Lilly:

I have so many questions for Clive Barker.

Sara:

I hate it. why would the people in the city agree to do this? Why are there children in there? Why are there old people? Like, why do they not put safety measures in? I don't know.

Lilly:

this there are supposed to be safety measures. If you recall, this year, one of the, like, organizers had passed away. So it was her daughter's first time being in charge of it. And so she did a bad job.

Sara:

Right, but even in the city that's left, the city that doesn't have those problems, they still talk about children in there and old people in there. It's the entire city. So that's not a safety I mean, that's not a safety issue gone wrong. That's just there's no safety there. Why?

Lilly:

well, that's because they're not supposed to be in danger. And there were, people watching who were not physically able to be part of the, the big giant.

Sara:

but there should have been more people who were not physically able to be part of us.

Lilly:

I love that this is the problem you have with it.

Sara:

I mean, I have a lot of problems with it. but this is the most immediate problem.

Lilly:

Also the visceral, like the people who were the, Creating the bottoms of the feet just being crushed over time.

Sara:

Also, how is that not a problem every year they do this?

Lilly:

Magic. how does a giant made up of a bunch of human beings chained together have a single consciousness by the end of it? How do they, like, decide to walk anywhere they walk? You can wave your hand a little bit.

Sara:

No, I can't.

Lilly:

Well, the most important thing about this short story is that it's the only thing I can ever think of whenever we read a Tiffany Aking novel from the Discworld series.

Sara:

Hate it.

Lilly:

And now it's stuck in your head too, you're welcome.

Sara:

I hate that comparison.

Lilly:

Because,

Sara:

it's it's terrible. Why, why would you do this to me?

Lilly:

I have ruined the We Free Men for you, I'm sorry. And you're welcome.

Sara:

No.

Lilly:

Because, in the We Free Men, the Knack McFegals, the little sprite dudes. They're like, what, six inches tall? At one point, they do have to impersonate a regular sized person, and so they do the, like, three kids in a trench coat, except it's, like, 20 Knack McFegals in a trench coat, pretending like they're a regular sized person. And as soon as we read that, I was like, Sarah, I all I can think of is In the Hills, the Cities!

Sara:

I hate it.

Lilly:

And then when the Knack McFegals, who are part of the Knees, were complaining, I was like, yeah, When you're on the body and you get crushed. I've already read this documentary. Hahaha.

Sara:

It, no. This does not spark joy.

Lilly:

The range of, I don't want to say human experience, because humans have not experienced either of these. The human imagination that can take this same concept and take it into such different directions and tones is amazing. Like, that's magical. That's humanity right there, and I love it.

Sara:

I mean, that is very much our discussion about Sex, Death, and Starshine, how the story that I want to read and envision is a cozy fantasy versus the horror novel that, you know, Clive Barker, or the horror short story that, that Clive Barker actually wrote.

Lilly:

That's true, and I think that's, mean, that's genre, right? You can have the exact same plot points, but if the, the feels are different, the tone, the, the ambiance, it completely changes the reading experience.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's incredible the way you can give the same prompt to 20 different authors and come out with 20 different stories from it. And some of this is really emphasizing that.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. I, to be fair, in my note that I said sex, death, and starshine has a fun spooky concept, you could probably replace fun with neat, and then you would agree with me more.

Sara:

I would agree with you more if you said neat rather than fun.

Lilly:

Yeah. In the hills, the cities first just like feeds my toxic relationship romance love. Love of toxic relationships in romance is the correct order for that sentence. And like, I remember the first time I was reading it being a little bit bored because that's not what I was looking for at the time. And, like, I knew it wasn't gonna be like, Lovers to Enemies or anything, so I was like, What? Why am I getting invested in these two dudes? And then suddenly the giant starts crumbling. And it is It's cool. Hehehe.

Sara:

I didn't like it. Mean, I, I think it's very well written. I think all of these are well written. this was maybe my third favorite of the collection. If I had to put them in ranked order, but I, not for me.

Lilly:

Well, that's a great example of Disliking something doesn't mean it's bad. Just means it's not for you. Oh yeah, I mean, I know you know that, but It's a Like, these are all very good. Okay, well they're not all very good short stories. They're all on some spectrum of dang good, but it doesn't matter how good something is if it's just not for you. Or, like, in The Hills, The Cities for me, not for me in that very specific moment I was reading it.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, and I think we've talked about this before, but as you say, there definitely is a difference between something being bad and something being not for you, either not for you entirely or not for you in that moment. And this collection, we knew going into it that it would be not for me, but that doesn't make it bad. I, I do think it's a good collection. I think the stories are well written. And they do what they set out to do. I just hate them.

Lilly:

I also really love Clive Barker's prose. Quite a bit. Even when it's being ooey gooey, especially when it's being ooey gooey. Yeah, so it just makes that simple act of reading them very enjoyable for me.

Sara:

His prose was good, but again, I did not enjoy it because it was too ooey gooey.

Lilly:

I would love to read one of his less intense, I mean, just one of his fantasy novels. I think it would be really interesting.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

it how it goes for you.

Sara:

I think that would be great.

Lilly:

And then I'll feel a little less guilty pigeonholing him as the Halloween guy.

Sara:

I'm pretty sure that I actually own an ebook copy of Imagica because it was on Kindle sale or on sale on Amazon or something. And I was like, Clive Barker, that's that horror author that Lily likes. But it's not horror. I'll buy it for 99 cents.

Lilly:

So I also feel like, I bet, I bet you a million dollars Clive Barker could write an eerie fantasy, and people would call it horror, even if that's not accurate. Because they're gonna read more into the dark elements than they would for a different author.

Sara:

I bet you're probably right.

Lilly:

Now, is that true for this book? I have no idea.

Sara:

Yeah, no, no idea.

Lilly:

We can talk about this later though. Books of Blood! I'm gonna go read a thousand more of them. There's not that many, I wish there was.

Sara:

I'm not going to do that. I'm very happy to have called it at the first one.

Lilly:

A whole month left, Sarah.

Sara:

Yep. Yep, there is. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans. I'm

Lilly:

Come disagree with us. Come tell Sarah she's wrong about horror. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara:

not necessarily going to argue that I'm not wrong about horror, I just don't like it.

Lilly:

And that's the wrong opinion!

Sara:

I'm a wuss. I'm not saying other people can't like it or that it's bad.

Lilly:

No, no, no, I,

Sara:

I just don't want to read it.

Lilly:

But I am obligated to give you a hard time about it.

Sara:

It's, it's true. Anyway, if you enjoyed the episode and if you enjoy horror, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly:

Bye.