Fiction Fans

I Shall Wear Midnight by Terry Pratchett

• Episode 158

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Your hosts take another step on their Journey to the Ends of the Discworld with "I Shall Wear Midnight," by Terry Pratchett, the YA novel to define all YA novels. They talk about quintessential genre examples, relatable teenage angst, and unfortunate Deus ex Machinas. They also discuss realistic romance arcs, unrealistic romantic interests, and what makes a villain scary. There's a brief visit to the Pet Peeve corner to talk about Cromwellian click bait.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License




Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

and tonight we'll be discussing I Shall Wear Midnight by Terry Pratchett. Is that the name of the book? It is! I got it

Sara:

is the name of the book. You did get it right.

Lilly:

I got all the articles in the right place and everything. But first, what's something good that happened recently?

Sara:

My dishwasher got repaired.

Lilly:

Oh, good.

Sara:

I'm very pleased. Yeah, my, I don't, I think I mentioned on the podcast that my dishwasher broke. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but my dishwasher broke. It, there was water coming up through my floor because it was leaking so much. It was very bad. But luckily and it was not something that we could fix ourselves. Well, maybe we could have but it was. not something easily fixed ourselves but luckily we were able to call a repairman who had the part and he was able to come out basically immediately and, and fix it. So all in all, I was dishwasher less for about a week, which is really not that bad in the scheme of things, actually, but it made me sad.

Lilly:

and you have it back, which is? A very good thing.

Sara:

Yeah The first couple of days that it was broken, I was without hot water in my kitchen sink and that was a little rough, so I was also very pleased when we could turn my hot water back on.

Lilly:

Oh, good.

Sara:

But then I still had a couple of days before, before the dishwasher itself got fixed. Anyway, that's, yeah, I'm, I'm still coasting that high.

Lilly:

Fair. good thing is that I exercised today, which is a good thing in the technical sense.

Sara:

You mean you didn't, you didn't get happy endorphins off of it?

Lilly:

No, I feel smug afterwards. Like, I did that thing I was supposed to do, but not like actual enjoyment in any sense of the word. But necessary for survival. Checked that box. Done with it for 24 hours.

Sara:

Excellent.

Lilly:

Or a month and a half, depending on, you know, what your cadence is. Whether it's like mine or not. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I am drinking cider.

Lilly:

Lovely. They do mention cider in this book, don't they? Small cider.

Sara:

I believe they do, yes. But also, I think that I've had cider for Tiffany Aching books before because it just feels right. I mean, they drink beer a lot more than they talk about cider, but I'm not a beer drinker. Cider's close enough.

Lilly:

I'm drinking red wine, and wine is mentioned in the book, but I'm drinking it because there was a bottle left at my house.

Sara:

That is an excellent reason to be drinking it.

Lilly:

Yeah, it came out of a glass container and everything.

Sara:

How very unusual.

Lilly:

I know, it's a Pinot Noir, and it's a Good.

Sara:

Is there anything special about it besides being in a bottle?

Lilly:

Mmm, no.

Sara:

It's not like local or something?

Lilly:

No, it's left over from the family reunion we hosted. I know, our family left wine behind.

Sara:

I figured it was from that. That is a little surprising, given our family.

Lilly:

So have you read anything good other than podcast books?

Sara:

So, when we spoke with Susan Palumbo about Countess she said that she would tag us in a when a short story of hers came out, which was a little less depressing than some of her normal stories. Work. She did indeed tag us. I did indeed read that. It was indeed less depressing. It is called Bleeding Heart or Bleeding Hearts. It is in Haven Spec Magazine's September issue, which is free to read. And it was really sweet and cute. I mean, there is a little bit of, like, stabbing and some heartbreak and angst in it, but I really liked it.

Lilly:

I'm excited to read it.

Sara:

Yeah, I liked it. I think she describes it as a queer goth meet cute.

Lilly:

sounds fabulous.

Sara:

Yes, it was.

Lilly:

I've been fucking around with Clive Barker, who you could also kind of describe as a meat cute. No, it's just a joke, because one of his stories is titled, Midnight Meat Train.

Sara:

I was gonna say, is it meet as in M E A T?

Lilly:

Yes. His, I love short stories, and I'm getting in to the spooky season vibes. I know it's a little early,

Sara:

Well,

Lilly:

weather changed, so I'm like, I'm in now.

Sara:

and we are starting to read our spooky season books, which is gonna be Clive Barker Next week because obviously podcast recording means that we have to start reading them before October.

Lilly:

Yes. And we even snuck Countess in a little early. I am living my best life right now.

Sara:

don't know if I would say that Countess was, was really spooky season.

Lilly:

It was dark.

Sara:

It was dark. Yes, it was definitely dark, but it wasn't like spooky. I

Lilly:

you're right. Yeah.

Sara:

racism and colonialism is definitely horror, but or horrific.

Lilly:

Anyway. The Tiffany Aching series of Discworld. is not horrific at all.

Sara:

No, but it does have witches, so does it count as spooky season?

Lilly:

We've had this conversation. No. But I did love it with all of my little heart.

Sara:

It was good. I, I do kind of wonder, or I'm, I'm left after each Tiffany Aching book thinking, does Tiffany really evolve throughout the course of the series? she, she ages. She's not the same age as she was when she was in the, introduced in the first book. But as a character, she kind of seems a little static to me, which doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the novels. It was just something that I was thinking about.

Lilly:

Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like she does have a very similar struggle in the three books that we've read so far, which is she gets herself in over her head and then has to get herself back out of this problem she's created for herself. But I would say, oh god, we didn't even read them that long ago, and I can't remember a single thing.

Sara:

I mean, that is the problem with reading a book a week.

Lilly:

yeah, thinking at least back to Wintersmith, which was the previous novel in her miniseries, right? Yes, yes. The reason why she gets into the trouble changes. Right? With Wintersmith, she's impulsive and doesn't listen to the advice of more experienced witches because she thinks she knows better. Whereas in this book, I guess she still thinks she knows better. But not better than experienced witches, just better than general people. And in this case, it's less of a, you should have listened to advice, and more of, just cause you're right doesn't make you nice.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

So I would say that. is different.

Sara:

Right. I

Lilly:

But not changed character. That's

Sara:

like, like, yes, I think the cause of the conflict in the books is different, ignoring plot, right, but the, like, the cause of the internal conflict is different, but I don't necessarily think that she grows from book to book.

Lilly:

Well, she's not making the same mistake over and over again.

Sara:

She's not.

Lilly:

I think that would be very frustrating as a reader. If it was like, Tiffany, haven't you learned anything?

Sara:

Well, and I think that's why, like, like I said earlier I do still really enjoy these books and my comment. Isn't necessarily, I don't mean to say that I don't I don't know.

Lilly:

No, it's an interesting thing. And my instinct was like, no, she totally changes. But I'm trying to interrogate why I feel that way.

Sara:

Like, I don't necessarily think that she changes. Well, maybe she changes a little bit over the course of this book. Like she does come to realize that being, having, having, people skills is as important as having witch skills.

Lilly:

And the problem with isolation, right? She needs a support system around her. Even if she's capable of solving her own problems, having that support system makes it less miserable.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

But that the moral of the story is not necessarily, well, it's not really a spoiler. It's a YA novel. There's a moral. But I do think the fact that she is making different mistakes every time. She is growing. She's just not done gr I That's it. I haven't read the next book, which is her last book, right?

Sara:

the, it is her last book. It is also the final book and was published posthumously is not as polished as the other Discworld novels because it really is not, probably is not a final draft. I mean, if Pratchett had been able to keep working on it, I suspect he would have kept working on it, but obviously that couldn't happen.

Lilly:

It feels like the Tiffany Aking miniseries is a full The word just completely fled my brain. Coming of age story. And so we're seeing little chunks of it, which I agree then, at the end of each book, you don't feel like, Ah, yes, she has now grown up because she's still growing.

Sara:

That's true. We have not seen the full like trajectory.

Lilly:

Yeah. And so in that case, it feels like she is changing, but she has not changed. Past tense. And by change, like, growing, learning, coming of age.

Sara:

right. So maybe this would have been a better question to ask in our very final Discworld episode.

Lilly:

will have to revisit it, yeah.

Sara:

if, if we remember, we will, we will revisit it.

Lilly:

you bring up an interesting side comment of mine, which is, This might be the most genuine YA, capital Y, capital A, young adult novel that I've read in a very long time. Genuine,

Sara:

from Pratchett or in general?

Lilly:

in general. And I would say even the Tiffany Aching miniseries feels like the platonic example of a YA series to me. Because the concepts are more advanced, there's, it's still introducing ideas that are adults in nature. There's some holy shit moments, in this book,

Sara:

Yeah, there, there are a couple of holy shit moments in this book. Yeah.

Lilly:

but it still is like comforting and holds your hand a little bit. Like this is a book that feels good for teens and what I remember myself liking as a teen, instead of being in that weird place where there are books written for you that feel like they're written for babies. and then so you sort of journey into the adult novels and sometimes get in over your head. Which I think is still a good experience for a young reader, but it feels like it's actually written for that age group without treating them like idiots.

Sara:

Interesting. And so would you say that you don't feel that way about the previous Tiffany Aching books then?

Lilly:

No, no, no, sorry, Tiffany aching as a whole.

Sara:

Okay. Okay.

Lilly:

Not just this book.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I guess this book starts with horrific physical abuse by one of the other people in the village to his 13 year old daughter causing her to have a stillbirth. But

Sara:

And there's the horror that he beat her so horrifically that she lost her pregnancy, but also. At least to me I'm a little bit horrified that she's 13 and pregnant.

Lilly:

that's treated so like, No, it's not great, but what can you do? It's not like a sexual abuse situation.

Sara:

it's definitely not. I, I mean, it, she was consenting when she, when she had the had the experience.

Lilly:

It's really young to be having sex, but in a rural community, I don't think that's like absolutely unheard of.

Sara:

I don't think it's unheard of. I was just a little surprised. to see both that and have it be combined with the violence that she experiences.

Lilly:

Well, I think handling the very young teenage pregnancy as Unfortunate, but, ah, those crazy kids, they'll figure something out. Was also kind of mind boggling.

Sara:

Yeah, I would, I would agree with that.

Lilly:

Like, it's treating Amber, the character who experiences this, as like, well, yeah, not ideal, but she would have figured something out, which is kind of a wild approach to a teen pregnancy, but is also respecting Amber in a way that I didn't really expect.

Sara:

And it also, I mean, it, it felt true to Discworld. Like, they acknowledge that it's young to be having a child, but it was her choice to have sex with her partner. And if that's what she wants, then that's what she wants.

Lilly:

They're 13. He can be a boyfriend.

Sara:

Okay. It's just, it's just weird to talk about a 13 year old having, having a child. I don't know.

Lilly:

It is.

Sara:

Even, even if she's fictional, and in a community where this is not unheard of.

Lilly:

plot point. Because Tiffany sort of managing that situation and dealing with the repercussions are a huge part of the book. Even if that's not the fun magical hijinks portion of the book. It's treated kind of somberly and not like, ah, that slut or whatever. Like, I don't know. It blew my mind.

Sara:

Pratchett, writes female characters the best

Lilly:

Absolutely. I felt that way about Tiffany Aching

Sara:

in

Lilly:

for a while. It's also where we see the most female characters, partially because it's witches.

Sara:

That's true too. But I definitely, and this is unfair, a little bit unfair to say because it's the same author, right? But I definitely feel like there are some Pratchett books where he would not have handled Amber's pregnancy and assault and miscarriage quite as gracefully.

Lilly:

Well, I mean, yeah.

Sara:

And I, I don't know if that's just because the focus of those books is different. But I do want to call that out as being, as the female characters in this book are particularly well written.

Lilly:

Yeah, he gives it time. It's not a joke. It's not rushed. It's a very impactful event that changed the course of Amber's and, in a smaller way, Tiffany's life.

Sara:

Yeah. And we, we are sometimes quite hard on Pratchett for how he writes women. So I, I do think it's worthwhile and, and highlighting when he does it well.

Lilly:

Absolutely. So the book starts very heavy, but it does feel like it's talking to its audience and dealing with its characters as people who are able to handle these concepts, but still introducing them in a like, don't worry, this book and also the community is going to take care of you kind of way.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I think it spends a little more time on the concepts that it introduces. than his adult novels do, if that makes sense. Because he is writing this as a young adult book. But it doesn't feel preachy or heavy handed.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And that's why this feels like a quintessential young adult novel, which is how we got into that whole thing. But there's also some fun hijinks. It's not all in that vein.

Sara:

It's not all heavy. I mean, there's definitely some heavy stuff in there, but.

Lilly:

So obviously the Wee Free Men are the delightful, Ongoing characters who we met in The We Free Men, the first Tiffany Aking novel. And Genie, the head knack McFiegle, has had The Kelda, is that her title? Thank

Sara:

that's her title.

Lilly:

Has had a historically contentious relationship with Tiffany. And that feels a little arbitrary. I know we just talked about how great the female characters are.

Sara:

We did. And I do think that Jeannie is a great female character and I wouldn't necessarily have said this about Jeannie in some of the earlier Tiffany Aching books, because you're right, she and Tiffany do have a little bit of a contentious relationship but in the earlier books, or at least in some of them, it's a lot more Jeannie being jealous of Tiffany, and Tiffany's relationship with Rob Anybody, who is like the big man, and Jeannie's husband. And in this novel, she's much more settled into her role, and doesn't exhibit that jealousy. And it's Tiffany who's kind of being weird about that relationship. And I think that that works a lot better for me because Tiffany is 16 and Jeannie is an adult. And so I'm a lot more willing to give Tiffany leeway than I am Jeannie. I

Lilly:

That's fair. I just feel like they have, the books have gotten them over their weird animosity. I mean, not weird animosity. understandable animosity, but perhaps a little tired animosity. And in this book, respect and trust each other, and that felt very good, and like they have earned that, and they see each other as equals, as the two sort of wise women of the region, although for different groups of people. And so when we did see that contentious relationship, it felt like it was just happening for, I don't know, to punch up a scene. It didn't feel like it's in the right place.

Sara:

don't know. What, what specific like moments are you thinking about?

Lilly:

Really, I, okay. Maybe this is just because this is a book in the series, and so Pratchett wanted to introduce their entire relationship arc in like three pages. at the very beginning, their first interaction was a confrontation, because Tiffany was basically saying like, Hey Genie, stop looking out for me. Stop having my back. What's wrong with you? And then from that moment on, Genie was like, Well, no. Also, you're obviously in trouble. Like, let me help you. and then it was fine from that point on. It just felt like that, maybe, now saying it out loud, it feels like it's more to introduce the reader to their relationship than it actually makes sense for them to experience that in that moment.

Sara:

I see where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree because I think Tiffany, a lot of this book is Tiffany coming to terms with the fact that she needs like a support system.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I think in the beginning she's very independent and feeling like she has to Go at herself and has to be like the witch holding down her steading and she doesn't need assistance because that diminishes what she's doing in some way.

Lilly:

That's true, and that is sort of the main thrust of this book, isn't it? I guess maybe where I'm struggling is, how often is Tiffany interacting with the Knack McFegals? If she's interacting with them with any regularity, Why is this like a sudden surprise now? Whereas yeah, okay, if this is the first time they've spoken to each other since the last book, sure. But that's not the vibe I get from how often they hang out.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't, I don't actually know how often she goes to the mound. Which is the Macfeagle's headquarters, which is where Genie is. Because unlike the men, the Kelda doesn't leave the mound and just pops out babies the entire time.

Lilly:

Except she made them install a courtyard.

Sara:

except she made them install a courtyard.

Lilly:

I think that's the problem. I love Genie and You're right, I get why Tiffany doesn't want help, but also, the fact that it was happening then felt convenient for the story that we were reading here.

Sara:

Maybe. I didn't feel that it felt convenient at the expense of Genie. Bents of feeling natural to the plot.

Lilly:

Fair enough. It fits for Tiffany's character.

Sara:

right. But like, I, I do see where you're coming from and I agree. I, I like Jeannie. I think Tiffany's wrong, you know, but,

Lilly:

I guess, how is this not a conversation they've already had?

Sara:

oh, I kind of thought that it was, I thought that they were retreading it.

Lilly:

I like that interpretation.

Sara:

Yeah. Like, I didn't think this was the first time they'd had that conversation.

Lilly:

Then I take it all back. Speaking of retreading ground though,

Sara:

we talking about Pratchett, Retconning Matt, We Matt Arthur who is, and this is not really a spoiler, although it happens later on in the book past where we usually put our spoiler mark, but it's minor in the scheme of things.

Lilly:

It's more like world building than plot relevant.

Sara:

yeah, exactly. So, We Matt Arthur is a gnome on the Ankh Morpork police force who rides a seagull. Is that what he normally rides? And he's always been described as a gnome in all of the Discworld novels, until now, where we discover that he was adopted by gnomes, and actually he's probably a knackmack fegal. So Pratchett definitely doing some retconning there.

Lilly:

Although it fits, because classically, carrot adopted by dwarves. So, it's not like it's unheard of in Discworld.

Sara:

It, it does, it does fit, but Carrot was very purposefully created as an adopted dwarf. And I don't think that We Met Arthur was created as an adopted dwarf.

Lilly:

no, I

Sara:

mean, like, I'm, I'm not, I'm not mad at it. Or not, I'm not mad about it, but it, it is noticeable to me anyway.

Lilly:

Well, it's especially funny because I think we've had that conversation around him, maybe in the Nightwatch episode?

Sara:

We had that conversation. It could have been when we had Dr. Cat Day on to talk about Nightwatch,

Lilly:

That's

Sara:

I don't, I guess he does show up. Yeah, he, he does show up in Nightwatch just a little bit.

Lilly:

Yeah, anyway. Also, now this could be me just not remembering previous Tiffany Aking books, which has never happened before. Doesn't she have a wizard that she accidentally, mentally incorporated after the Hiver

Sara:

I had that question too, because we hear no mention of him in this book.

Lilly:

at all?

Sara:

And maybe it's just that his voice got, uh, quieter and quieter as she got older. A couple of years have passed since the last book. But yeah, there's, there's no mention of her ever having had a wizard in her head in this novel.

Lilly:

And I especially expected it to come up during the introduction, the introduction of that one character who we'll talk about later.

Sara:

Yes, that would have been a great time to have it mentioned, but it was not.

Lilly:

Yeah, I was like, did this, did this get resolved at the end of the last book and I don't remember? But the fact that you are also confused makes me think that, no.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't, I don't think it got resolved. I think this is just something that got kind of dropped.

Lilly:

yeah. And that's fine, it wouldn't have been, well, it would have been a little relevant, actually.

Sara:

I feel like it could have made a difference, actually. It could have had a plot impact

Lilly:

it was just a, an absence that I noticed.

Sara:

yes. No, you're, you're not alone in that. I

Lilly:

Okay, well let's go talk about that character. who should read this book? I mean, anyone 17 or under? Also anyone?

Sara:

mean, if, if you've read the earlier Tiffany Aching books and liked them, You should read this book.

Lilly:

Do you think you could read this book without the previous Tiffany Egging books?

Sara:

I think you could, but I don't think you should. I think that Pratchett does a good enough job introducing all of the characters that you're not going to be lost if you start with this, but you're probably going to enjoy it a little bit more if you have context for the earlier parts. For the earlier events.

Lilly:

I think, more importantly, if you were going to like this book, You would also like the earlier Tiffany Aking books. So there's no

Sara:

that, that too. That too.

Lilly:

right? Like, there are some series that change dramatically over time, but I think if this sounds like a book for you, so are the other Tiffany Aking novels. Which are a sort of really fun bubble. Like, I don't think you need to love all of Discworld to enjoy the Tiffany Aking books.

Sara:

No, I, I think that you can read those kind of just by themselves and ignore the wider Discworld novels if you really wanted to.

Lilly:

Yeah, I think they stand entirely alone. And they are different enough that even someone who didn't totally jive with Discworld could still really like them, I think.

Sara:

Yeah, I would agree with that. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that, and a little bit more, at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support.

To avoid spoilers, skip to one hour.

Sara:

So, how do we feel about Esk's reappearance?

Lilly:

I kind of loved it. It's a fun reference to very early Discworld that has sort of been phased out over time. Like, I feel like the world has been made, but we don't see references to those early characters so much. So I thought it was a really fun, just little, almost Easter egg.

Sara:

I, yeah, I see where you're coming from. I wasn't necessarily as enthusiastic about it, and I'm not sure I can articulate why. Maybe because it comes so late in the series, and it feels like, like Esk is from, I don't know, book four or something, or book five. Or maybe even book three, yeah, equal rights. Esk is from really, really early on in the series. And to only have her show up now, Feels a little bit to me like she was forgotten about, and now Pratchett's like, Oh yeah, I should have a reference to that one female wizard. Because I haven't mentioned her ever again.

Lilly:

maybe. It bothered me more that she was a literal deus ex machina.

Sara:

I think, I think that might actually have something to do with how I felt about her too.

Lilly:

Her showing up and being a almost mentor, not mentor, but Giving Tiffany some context and very important information was fine. Her showing up when Tiffany's literally about to get got by the bad guy and then whisking her away to a pocket dimension while time is frozen was a little much.

Sara:

I think actually. Talking it over with you, yes, that's exactly what my issue with her is. I don't mind her inclusion in general, it's the way in which she was included because it's, it's just over the top. Like, she has these powers that we've never seen at all. In the series before she can basically time travel she sends Tiffany's future self back to talk to her past self she saves the day in this really random way, or in, in this very convenient way it was just too much.

Lilly:

Yes, I, in concept, Okay, Tiffany can't ask the witches for help because then it would be admitting that she needs help and then the witch community would always wonder if she's actually good enough. That, I'm on board with. Her then being able to ask for help from the only female wizard feels good to me in like a plot character sense. Why does she have to pop up in time bubble dimensions?

Sara:

Right. It's just, it's too much.

Lilly:

and it ruins the villain. The, okay. The, the real, the true villain, the cunning man, was such an over the top boogeyman. I could not take him seriously, especially because there'd be all this like tense drama. He's very scary. He just has pits into where his eyes are supposed to be because he has no soul, and he says this like, really crazy, over the top, like, religious, awful, like, you whore, you're gonna burn in hell shit. It's completely nutso, especially for Discworld. And there's these tense scenes where he's slowly approaching Tiffany and he's gonna get her! And he's getting closer! And while he's inches away, suddenly Esk shows up and saves everything. And that happens like three times.

Sara:

Yeah, it happens. I mean, once would be too many, but it happens a lot.

Lilly:

It also makes him Not scary.

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. I think you have actually hit the nail on the head about why I don't like Esk in this book. And it has nothing to do with Esk as a, as a character from the earlier books. It has everything to do with Esk. How Esk is this overpowered deus ex machina.

Lilly:

And she's like, kind of quirky, pretty cool. It's fine. I was like, oh, I'm glad that that's what Esk ended up It's kind of weird that she lives in a magical trash heap, but you know, whatever, to each their own. I'm glad she seems to be happy.

Sara:

Could you have not said that right as I was taking a drink of cider? My my question about Esk is where's Simon in all of this? Like, they go off together don't they?

Lilly:

Well, presumably he is

Sara:

but we don't hear about him at all.

Lilly:

Presumably he's sitting at home while she's jumping into pocket dimensions occasionally going, Oop, gotta go whisk her out of trouble. BRB, honey.

Sara:

Except her home is kind of this trash heap. It's

Lilly:

Yes, but her home is not the pocket dimensions specifically. She can get into the pocket dimension because she lives in a magical trash heap.

Sara:

I mean, he could have at least been there like making tea when when she brings Tiffany to the trash heap.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Her scenes did not work for me, but I don't think they, on, on thinking about it. I think you're right. I think that had nothing to do with Esk as a character and everything to do with the character.

Lilly:

Yeah. Okay, do you agree, though, that the cunning man is just, like, nothing? Literally nothing?

Sara:

I mean, yes and no. I do think that his danger is lessened by the way that Tiffany gets whisked away by Esk every time it actually becomes dangerous. But I think the concept of the cunning man is interesting and the way that he's described and all of his scenes are very effective until we get to the deus ex machina portion.

Lilly:

I loved his concept. The fact that he basically, like, stirs up hatred and mob mentality and anti witch violence. makes everyone potentially dangerous. That was very cool. Him himself, whenever he actually showed up, he stopped being scary.

Sara:

I,

Lilly:

people was very cool, but like, the cunning man? Nothing.

Sara:

I, I half agree with you and, and half disagree. I think when he showed up in earlier scenes, he was still effective before he actually had a body. And when Tiffany was just like sensing his presence. But once he gets the body, I agree. He's, he's just not scary anymore.

Lilly:

I think he was scary because it was the unknown potential. Anyone could be a danger. Even in that one moment, other witches could be driven to hate each other. And want to kill each other. And that is horrifying. Like, no allies.

Sara:

and I, it's also really scary the way that Tiffany feels herself being influenced because she does feel herself being influenced. Like she recognizes at times that these are, these are angry words or angry thoughts that she would not have normally.

Lilly:

She has a lot of supernatural evils affecting her emotions. I'm not gonna say that I also did when I was a teenager, but

Sara:

I mean, she is a 16 year old girl.

Lilly:

Which is a little We're being silly. I mean, teenagers have genuine emotions that are valid and not Jokes and caused by demons, but looking back, maybe a little bit, just a little, teeny tiny bit.

Sara:

I mean, teenagers can be a little over the top with how they feel things.

Lilly:

I

Sara:

Which I think Tiffany is too not necessarily in regards to the cunning man, but if we can switch subjects just a little bit and talk about her relationship trajectory with Roland and then her relationship with Preston. She definitely has some strong feelings about Roland and his new girlfriend, his fiancee, which are very typical. teenage melodramatic.

Lilly:

feel like she handled them very well. I mean, she was feeling them, but she wasn't actually making their lives, like,

Sara:

Oh, to be clear,

Lilly:

was all internal. She was very good at saying, I'm being silly.

Sara:

to, to be clear, I agree with you. She was, she handled it great. But because we do see all of that internal struggle, like we do see what she's feeling and a lot of what she's feeling is very melodramatic which is not, it's not to say that it's unearned or unbelievable or, or like, You can't sympathize with it, but it's still melodramatic. That doesn't take away from the melodrama of it.

Lilly:

guess. But like, if you can't be melodramatic in your own head, where is safe? I feel like that's just unfair to Tiffany.

Sara:

no, but I'm, I'm just saying that it's, it's a very teenage reaction. Like, I'm not, I'm not judging her for it. I'm just saying it's a very teenage reaction.

Lilly:

I guess. I respect her for not letting her emotions affect her interactions, her outward interactions with them.

Sara:

Sure. I like, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing there. Like, I'm not disagreeing at all.

Lilly:

I, I actually really loved the conversation around her acknowledging that she and Roland were not right for each other. Unfortunately, breakups still suck.

Sara:

Well, so in, in earlier books or in our discussions of earlier books, I've always said I love her relationship arc with Roland. And this is why, right? Because I love how she doesn't end up with her first love, or her first crush, and

Lilly:

First boyfriend.

Sara:

her first boyfriend. And I think it's a good thing for a young adult novel to show that people drift apart and like your first crush or your first boyfriend is not necessarily your first love. And you can still have like big complicated feelings about it. You can still be hurt about it. But that doesn't make it a bad thing. And so like, I just, I, I love how that All plays out.

Lilly:

They don't even drift apart. Well, it does sound like their actual breakup was a little explosive, but they, it sounds like, ultimately at the end of the book, they remain, or have the potential to become, again, good friends who really trust each other,

Sara:

Right. But I like, I, I think that they realize that just because they were pushed together by circumstance doesn't mean that they had anything in common with, each other. And it doesn't mean that they were good together romantically. That has nothing to do with how they can. be or not be friends.

Lilly:

right? And the idea that breakups can be good, even when they hurt and suck, because they do, like, it does. Sure. Always. Basically always. But, ultimately, that means two people who weren't. right for each other are no longer together, which is a good thing.

Sara:

Yeah. So like, while I still find her inner struggle melodramatic, like I totally get it. I think it's very understandable and I love that she has it and I love how it plays out.

Lilly:

Yeah, it's, she can feel her feelings, but not make them everyone else's problem.

Sara:

Yeah. And I also love that, yes, some of the conflict in this book is tension. There because of this breakup, but that's not the Like capital C conflict of the book and it feels really understandable and not contrived.

Lilly:

In fact, I believe it's pretty heavily implied that a lot of Rowland's animosity towards her, because he's way ruder to her than she is to him,

Sara:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Lilly:

is partially because of the cunning man influencing him to hate witches and be distrustful of witches, even though she's only ever helped the people around her. Kind of vitually, but still helped.

Sara:

Yes, I mean, some of his feelings are definitely magically induced.

Lilly:

Yeah. Speaking of his magically induced feelings, I. Fucking. Love. Letitia. Oh. My. God.

Sara:

So Letitia being his fiance, she ends up being great. A lot of the beginning of the book, our view of her is very heavily influenced by how Tiffany feels about her, which is understandably not enthusiastic you know, because this bitch stole her man. And so Tiffany thinks that she's wet and uninteresting and

Lilly:

Too blonde.

Sara:

too, too blonde and bland and, you know, just has no strength of character. And then as the, like at like the halfway mark or a little past the halfway mark, Tiffany actually starts to interact with her and realizes that, oh, she actually does have a character and she is a witch or has magic powers and. can be very sensible in some respects. And so Tiffany starts to respect her. And so she develops as a character quite nicely.

Lilly:

And I really liked, as part of the not exactly love triangle thing happening, the development of Yes, Tiffany is very upset that she and Roland broke up. Yes, she's very upset that he now has a hot fiancé. That's justifiably upsetting.

Sara:

A hot, rich fiance.

Lilly:

All of the worst things!

Sara:

Yeah. Even, even worse.

Lilly:

But ultimately, that doesn't make Letitia a bad person.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

And there's also the aspect of Everyone's shallow if you don't get to know them.

Sara:

Yes

Lilly:

in fact very easy to make people a villain figure. if you refuse to get to know anything about them that could be redeeming.

Sara:

Yeah, so you're right she she turns out to be a great character

Lilly:

Her character development was just, oh, I loved it so much.

Sara:

and it would have been so easy for her to remain shallow

Lilly:

Oh yeah, absolutely. I felt the same way about her mother, the Duchess, and it was very funny actually. When I was first making my notes, I was like, I love how deep and in depth the villains were in this book. Realizing I was thinking of the Duchess and not the cunning man who's the actual villain. Which is how little I gave a shit about the cunning man. But Letitia's mother? Awful. rude, bougie, the worst. But then like as we learn more about her and Letitia like shares more and she's like yeah, I mean she's not very nice but she really takes care of the people in our like hometown and Just giving her that depth, I still didn't like her as a person. She still stucked pretty hard, but she had redeeming qualities, which I really liked.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean I I find it hard to reconcile the woman who takes care of aging staff with the woman who shouts at all of the staff in Rowland's house or Rowland's household if they don't address her properly and who, like, won't let them be brought dinner when they're on watch and things like that. But just because I can't reconcile it doesn't mean that it's not true.

Lilly:

So I interpreted that as her trying too hard. I mean, so we also find out that she's not noble born. She was a dance hall girl, and how exactly she bagged the duke, we don't know. There are some implications. I totally see her being kinder in a place where her authority is, like, has been confirmed over

Sara:

Oh, already established? Yeah. I mean, I,

Lilly:

Whereas in The Chalk, is there a name for the actual village or is it just The Chalk? The Chalk is the whole region, I thought.

Sara:

the Chaka's the region. I, she does, Tiffany's town does have a name, and I don't remember what it is.

Lilly:

Nah, fine. So when the Duchess gets there, there's sort of, it feels like she's, as we learn about her background and how she is actually kind, or if not kind, cares about her employees back home, it feels like there's an element of fake it till you make it. And this is like her cartoon version of nobility. And so she's acting how she thinks she's supposed to, to get respect. Which is, I mean, clearly not true. She did a bad job. But, and that doesn't make her okay. It doesn't make anything she did okay. But you kind of, like, understand why she was doing it. She wasn't just trying to be mean.

Sara:

No, and, and you're right, and that is how I viewed her actions at Roland's castle, or, or Roland's keep, or whatever it is. Especially in light of what we learn when we learn that she is Not of a noble background herself, but It's still hard for me to reconcile the woman who thinks that's how she has to behave with the woman who takes care of all of her staff back home, because I feel like she probably would have been uppity there too.

Lilly:

Maybe. Who knows?

Sara:

I mean, who knows? And doesn't really matter, and it doesn't make her any less complex. And I, I did appreciate that complexity. Like, she's not just a one dimensional asshole noblewoman.

Lilly:

People contain multitudes.

Sara:

They do. Sometimes.

Lilly:

Yeah. So, Tiffany does not end up alone. Love that she becomes, if not BFFs with Letitia and Roland, it feels like future someday BFFs. She does get a romantic interest assigned to her by the novel about halfway through. You laugh because that's exactly what happened.

Sara:

Oh yeah, that's, that is, that is why I laugh, yeah.

Lilly:

I should have more of a problem with that, except I like Tiffany and I want her to be happy. So that's fine, Preston, you can stay.

Sara:

Women can be happy without romantic interests, gosh darn it. She doesn't need to have a love interest. But I do also like Preston, so

Lilly:

But she wanted a love interest.

Sara:

She did,

Lilly:

Yeah, someone who doesn't want one can totally be happy without one.

Sara:

but, she could have gone without a love interest for this book and been introduced to Preston in the third book. Final book.

Lilly:

I agree with that. It felt too Like, convenient? Oh, while you're trying to deal with your ex getting a new girlfriend, you happen to find a guy who's been living in the same village as you this whole time? Really? You just now notice him? Okay.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, even if they had just met and been friends in this book and then gotten together in the next book, I would have been okay with that. But

Lilly:

Yeah, there

Sara:

it is it is very convenient for her that she realizes that Preston is smart and interesting and attractive. In this novel.

Lilly:

could have at least been a joke about it. Like,

Sara:

It happens, it happens real fast.

Lilly:

could like, take his glasses off and take his hair out of a ponytail and she could be like, Wow, you're actually hot! Like, come on.

Sara:

I, I feel like Pratchett tries to do that a little bit with their shared interest in what do some words, like, feel or sound like or whatever.

Lilly:

Yeah. I like their relationship, it just, the timing of it was bad. Or, sloppily done. Like, convenient for Tiffany.

Sara:

Yeah I think that's what it is. Like it, it feels very convenient.

Lilly:

And, it kind of makes me think that the Tiffany Roland arc was decided on in this book. Because, if Preston had been introduced in the first book, maybe he is. He didn't make an impression if he did.

Sara:

I don't actually remember what book, in what book he first appears as a named character. It is certainly possible that Pratchett didn't decide until this book that Roland wasn't going to be Tiffany's ultimate love interest. I have, I have no idea, but their breakup happens off screen before the novel starts.

Lilly:

That's, I'm fine with that, honestly. It's more if I would have liked Preston to be a little bit more of a major character earlier.

Sara:

it, it would have been nice if he had shown up sooner. Yeah,

Lilly:

Memorable character. Doesn't have to be a major character. Memorable character. Well, we already talked a lot about Tiffany getting herself into trouble in a very teenage way. In a non spoilery way, but it still did happen. My favorite point, I think, my actual favorite line, was Preston. And see, this is, like, I do like him. The timing is just so convenient, anyway.

Sara:

So, the L Space wiki gives his appearances as I Shall Warp Midnight and the Shepard's Crown. So,

Lilly:

I am zero percent shocked. At one point, so, the book is set up with Tiffany being the witch of the village, and the whole Chalk region, so she's super overworked, she's the only one who will do the work that needs to get done, and poor Tiffany. And then at one point, Preston's like, oh, like, my mother taught me how to do this, let me help you! And she says, no, only a witch can do this. Which is clearly not true if Preston's mother did it and taught him how to do it. And so it's like, her complaining that no one helps her and then turning down help was just Mm, who hasn't been there and then realized later that they were being dumb.

Sara:

Tiffany is very much a 16 year old girl.

Lilly:

Yes. And that like, taking too much on and refusing to ask for help. I know I said earlier that I'm okay with her refusing to ask the other witches for help because then it would show that she's not capable. Because I get that and I don't think she's entirely off base. However, one of the other themes of the witches is that witches need other witches. And so the problem is not that she couldn't ask other witches for help. The problem is that she had not pre established her support system. Because if you ask, you're established, I'm gonna say coven. Although the books don't use that word very often.

Sara:

Or they make fun of themselves when they do.

Lilly:

Yeah, which is fair, but also accurate. If she had a A coven, which she kind of starts to build up in this, well, the end of the book implies that she could be, right, like Letitia, a practicing witch, even though she has no help whatsoever. Amber, very adept at magic and understanding the truth of things, even if, as they say, she's a little simple. But actually, like, more, there's a stereotype there that doesn't sit quite right, but Amber's a sweetheart and it's fine. I don't know., It's the Rain Man issue, right? Amber's a little bit got the Rain Man problem.

Sara:

An idiot savant kind of thing.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Yeah I agree, but we also, because we see so little of Amber I don't necessarily trust Tiffany's description of her as simple. Oh.

Lilly:

I think you're right, and I think that's also what ultimately, I mean, doesn't Tiffany think everyone is simple? Ha ha

Sara:

A little bit.

Lilly:

ha

Sara:

Tiffany's, Tiffany's got a pretty high opinion of herself. Not without justification but it, it does mean that I think she's Sometimes views everyone else as inferior.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. I agree with that, and I think that's why it didn't bother me that much, but I did notice it. Hints of that.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Anyway, so we have Amber and we have Letitia, so it's sort of like setting up Tiffany to have a coven eventually, I feel. And then you're making faces at me, that probably is completely addressed in the next book, which I haven't

Sara:

No, no, no, no. I'm, I'm making faces at Mr. Squeak.

Lilly:

Oh no, what's he doing? She!

Sara:

She was, she was just stretching. That's cute.

Lilly:

Okay, that's good. And so, yeah, the problem is not that she can't ask the older witches for help. The problem is that she has not created a network of peers to ask for help, I would say.

Sara:

Well, she does have a network of peers. It's just that none of them are actually in the chalk.

Lilly:

Witches need other witches. They can't be isolated. That's a big theme, and Tiffany talks about it a lot, it comes up a lot in this book, and we see the repercussions of it. Not because she starts to go mad, but because she needs support. There's also the theme in this book that gets Tiffany into quite a bit of trouble. That it's not just what you do, it's also how you make people feel. The idea that you can be right and an asshole. And to be fair, the cunning man also, you know, makes people angry more than they would be otherwise. But also, She's kind of a jerk a lot.

Sara:

she is. I mean, we, we see that when she is dealing with Mrs. Preston, Amber's mother. Who is very distressed because she's an abused housewife and her husband has just assaulted her daughter and she doesn't know where either of them are. Is and Tiffany kind of comes in and basically just decides that she knows better, which is a theme for Tiffany, and she's not wrong, but she also realizes, in the moment even, to her credit although not soon enough, that she can be right, but She needs to let the other party make that decision. Like, she can't just decide how they should live their lives. And as you say, like, that's a theme throughout this book. She talks a little bit about it in the end, too, where she admires Nanny Ogg and wishes that she had learned some of her people skills. Because Nanny is very, very good at people.

Lilly:

Nanny's never worried about a mob.

Sara:

Nanny is never worried about a mob.

Lilly:

Well, and we see that with Preston, too, right? The idea that no one realizes how smart he is because he knows it makes people uncomfortable, and so he doesn't bring up all the stuff he knows all the time, even though he's right. He can read the room. And so I think him having that He, like, he probably is as smart as Tiffany, but he has that element of people skills that makes it feel like he's not a total paper cutout put there just for her. It's close, but yeah, and just like, even when she is right, you can help people and be kind, and you can help people and be rude.

Sara:

Well.

Lilly:

and she had to sort of figure that out.

Sara:

I mean, sometimes the kind thing is to not point out how right you are and Tiffany has to learn that over the course of this book.

Lilly:

Mm hmm. And I really, I don't know, I thought that was a really It's a complex concept.

Sara:

It is, it's, it's not an easy thing to learn and I think that it's an issue that a lot of people struggle with, because People like being right. I mean, I, I like being right, you know? But you do have to realize that there's value in those social interactions, too. It's not, being right doesn't get you everything.

Lilly:

and there's also a really interesting crossover with this, like, STEM field stereotypes. Which I think might not be nothing since he did work in STEM a little bit. Pratchett did. The, the idea that someone can be a technical genius but have zero people skills,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

how that's a problem.

Sara:

Absolutely. I mean, like, there's a reason why self skills are important.

Lilly:

Yeah, and, and just exploring that I think was, was really cool. I liked this book.

Sara:

Yeah, it's, it's a good book.

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

It's definitely a good book.. It is a good book, but I do have a Pet Peeve that this book doesn't play into, but does remind me about, which is, I really hate clickbait titles that contain the formula along the lines of She didn't expect what happened next. And this book does use that sentence in it. Not, obviously not in any kind of article context. But I just, and I, I just hate that kind of article title. Because it is so very clearly trying to drive you to click on the article. And it's not helpful at all. And I miss actually helpful article titles. So. Obviously, in this book, like, that's not an issue because you just read the next paragraph, it's fine. But I hate that formula in, like, newspaper headings or whatever. And seeing that sentence did make me angry. Just a, just a little bit.

Lilly:

you have associations with it now.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I don't think that stood out to me as strongly as it did to you, but what I noticed in this book, and this is probably, well, it's the pet peeve corner, so it can be goofy, and that's all right. The Knack McFegals use the word Cromwell, And that felt like such an anachronism. It took me entirely out of the book. Cromwell didn't did he exist in Discworld? Am I completely misunderstanding? Isn't that a reference to a real dude?

Sara:

I, I mean, Cromwell is a real dude, yes.

Lilly:

Yeah, and there's like, the word and the adjective, and he's like, oh, there are a bunch of Cromwells. That's, that is a real world reference. And I know we're both googling Cromwell now. It's, I think the problem is that it's not a regular expression that I hear, and so I associate it more closely with This is a phrase that refers to history rather than just an adjective that gets thrown around. So when the Knack McFegals said it, I'm pretty sure it was the fegals who said it,

Sara:

It, it was, yes.

Lilly:

Excuse me. Sir, when did you go to Earth? Unacceptable.

Sara:

I mean, so I have read two of the Science of Disco World novels, maybe only one, I can't remember. And it's been a long time. Not novels because they're not really novels, books and those. Take place on the round world in some respect. So there's some kind of like crossover potential there.

Lilly:

I guess the fegals do actually travel through dimensions, don't

Sara:

They do

Lilly:

Yeah, fine.

Sara:

I mean, which is not to say that, that, that phrase can't like throw you outta the book a little bit, but I, I think that we can stretch and get to a, an excuse for it.

Lilly:

It is ultimately acceptable, but in the moment, made me stop and write it down.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us! We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara:

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Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, you might have heard of it, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara:

I hope you've heard of our Patreon because we do try to plug it, and it your support does make a huge difference, so if you haven't heard of it, let us know and we'll try to do better. Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!