Fiction Fans

Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler

• Episode 156

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Your hosts discuss Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. They talk about how eerie it is to read a dystopian future set in… pretty much indistinguishable modern day (although with a little extra cannibalism sprinkled in). They also talk about religious themes, relatable characters, and the importance of kindness. Lilly sneaks in an unplanned Pet Peeve corner.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

and tonight we'll be discussing The Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. But first, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I just got back from a two week trip to, well, almost two week trip to London, York, and various bits of Scotland which was a lot of fun, particularly because the whole purpose of the trip was to attend the Springbank Distillery Whiskey School, which I had signed up for seven or eight years ago. I signed up a long, long time ago. I did get to the top of the waiting list a couple of years ago, but it was at, like, the height of covid. So I deferred for a couple of years. And then last year, when I deferred, I told myself that this year was going to be the year that I did it. So, yeah. So I did it. And it was amazing, incredible. They have such a good thing going on because I paid them for the privilege of doing hard manual labor.

Lilly:

Are you gonna open a whiskey distillery now? Are you inspired?

Sara:

I'm not, but if I could get a job on the malting floor at Springbank I would do that in a heartbeat, even though that was very hard work.

Lilly:

Well, we've just established that people pay them to work there and not the other way around, so.

Sara:

They pay their employees, but like Gavin called me, I'll work for you.

Lilly:

Well, it sounds like you had an amazing time.

Sara:

It was great. It culminated in us blending our own bottle of whiskey and then taking a test to prove that we had internalized things. Luckily it was an open book test because it was a hard test. I did pass but like genuinely some of the questions on there were very difficult. But yeah, it was, it was great. It was like incredible. If their waiting list was open, I would sign up for it again, but it's not, so I can't.

Lilly:

Well, I'm glad you had fun.

Sara:

What's your good thing?

Lilly:

Not quite on that scale, but I got a new chair.

Sara:

Also a good thing.

Lilly:

haven't been using it like 100 percent of the it's an exercise ball. It's not a real chair. I'm sitting on an exercise ball. So if you see me just like constantly bouncing around during recording, that's why.

Sara:

okay.

Lilly:

whole time.

Sara:

It will be interesting to see how that affects your volume.

Lilly:

Well, I don't think I'll actually be moving around that much, but fidgeting on it is much quieter than fidgeting on my office chair, so I think it will actually be an improvement for the audio.

Sara:

Probably. Your office chair is kind of loud.

Lilly:

It is! I've been using it for work, too, and, I mean, staying very still in meetings, because that would be very distracting. But, I think I've been liking it better than a regular chair. I don't like chairs, in general. I'm not a sitting kind of person. I prefer being sprawled.

Sara:

Understandable.

Lilly:

This has been an improvement. Anyway. What are you drinking today?

Sara:

I have some kind of herbal tea that I don't actually like very much, but I am desperately trying to avoid becoming sick. I can feel something in my throat, so that's why I'm drinking this rather not to my taste tea.

Lilly:

Did you put any honey in it?

Sara:

I did not because I don't like honey in my tea.

Lilly:

Well, find something that you like honey in because that helps more than the tea does.

Sara:

I have A friend sent me honey sticks, and I have been eating those.

Lilly:

That's good.

Sara:

So, that helps.

Lilly:

I am, or I was double fisting coffee and water. I did just finish my coffee, so I guess my answer is simply water.

Sara:

It's a good thing to be drinking.

Lilly:

It is. And have I read anything good lately? I accidentally found a new fanfiction fandom I've, I've mentioned it to you before, but there's a lot of Baldur's Gate 3 fanfiction. It's all extremely horny, to a, like, almost impressive degree.

Sara:

mean, I get the impression that it's just a particularly horny fandom.

Lilly:

It seems to be. But I think what's most delightful is that they have nicknames for pairings, which is such a blast from the past.

Sara:

That really is.

Lilly:

So that's been really, really fun, and kind of nostalgic in a weird way.

Sara:

Mmm.

Lilly:

How about you, read anything?

Sara:

I did a lot of reading while on trains. And then I also did a lot of reading of the Springbank Distillery booklet they, whiskey making booklet that they gave us but one of the things that I read was The Dead Cattail Assassins by P. Jelly Clark, which is his new novella that came out recently. And I really enjoyed it. But there was one moment that threw me out of the story. The main character is talking to some people about like a group of wizards and the group of wizards are called the Edgelords. And there's one particular, like, trio of wizards that she misnames. They have, I forget what they're, what they actually called themselves but she calls them the Neckbeards. And, like, it was funny, but also completely just, like, took me out of the story. So that was a little jarring, but overall really good. I really enjoyed it.

Lilly:

I've read very little of his work, but I've liked, liked it quite a bit.

Sara:

I mean, we've read two things of his for the podcast.

Lilly:

Yeah, that's, that's it. That's all I've read.

Sara:

He doesn't actually have a ton of stuff. I think he has a middle grade book out that I haven't read. He has a short story set in the same world as Master of Djinn. And then he has this that just came out.

Lilly:

Google is showing me a list of at least eight things,

Sara:

I

Lilly:

so I guess a quarter isn't too bad. Some of them are for young readers, it says. It doesn't really matter.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

You can argue that I've read a higher percentage of his books than I think, but.

Sara:

I just, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that you've not read a ton of his stuff, is all.

Lilly:

All right.

Sara:

I think you've read a respectable amount of his adult work. Or his work aimed at adults.

Lilly:

The problem with saying that about literally anything is that it's so subjective, literally someone will come and say, that's not that much. How dare you?

Sara:

Well,

Lilly:

so I have found it's best to just never assert that I have read a large portion of any author's work. It's much safer.

Sara:

That's, well, I will argue the opposite. I

Lilly:

Because even if you've read every single novel someone has written, but you haven't read the short stories and the unpublished works and the It's just not a fight I'm willing to get into.

Sara:

mean, some people are just assholes. Is what it is.

Lilly:

Well, another author whose work I've read very little of is Octavia Butler.

Sara:

I'm not gonna argue there.

Lilly:

Having just read a book for the very first time. I will admit, I'm pretty sure that the title is Sower, because it's about sowing seeds, I figured out partway through reading it. But when I was first looking at the title, I definitely thought it was like Sour, like rhymes with Tower or Bower, for no reason at all.

Sara:

don't think that there is a pronunciation of S O W E R that is sour.

Lilly:

No, but it's just all of the other words that are O W E R are Our, like Tower and Bower, and Shower. It's not Shower.

Sara:

It is, it is not shower. But this is Sower, yes. It was, this is the first Octavia Butler that I've read as well. It was very well written. I thought it does what it sets out to do, but it was so bleak and depressing that I, it just was not, not to my taste.

Lilly:

I was surprised with how intense it was. I know we read the summary of it at one point when we were picking out a book to read, but I had forgotten all of it, so was going in basically blind. And,

Sara:

be fair, is how you go into most of our books.

Lilly:

yes, but this time I can't use the excuse that I didn't read anything. I did! I just forgot it. It's very intense. Pretty quickly.

Sara:

Yeah I mean, it's a, it's a dystopian society, and there's a lot that That goes on in it and that's mentioned basically, if you can think of a content warning, this book needs it.

Lilly:

Absolutely. I would say just off the top, some obvious ones, self harm, sexual assault, violence, cannibalism, there's probably more. Those

Sara:

I mean, gruesome, gruesome, gruesome deaths.

Lilly:

I said violence.

Sara:

Yeah, but I,

Lilly:

covers it.

Sara:

I think for me. There's sometimes a difference between hearing violence and hearing, yeah, it gets really gruesome.

Lilly:

Fair. The concept of violence versus, you know, explicit violence.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Well, I really liked this book.

Sara:

I'm not, I'm not surprised.

Lilly:

It hits some points that I associate with horror,

Sara:

Interesting

Lilly:

which I think is also probably the same points that turned you away from it.

Sara:

probably, although I would not have categorized this as a horror novel.

Lilly:

No, I mean, I'm, I'm not trying to argue that the genre should actually be horror, but the things I like about it are very similar to the things I like about horror,

Sara:

Ah, that makes sense.

Lilly:

right? Like the, the easy one, just the Adrenaline rush of reading something horrifying.

Sara:

There is a lot of horrifying stuff in this book.

Lilly:

The growing dread. The, oh no, something good happened. That means it's going to be yanked away. There's a lot of those, those aspects that I associate very closely with the horror genre.

Sara:

I can see that. And you're right. Those are things that I don't like at all about the horror genre. And I'm sure that does contribute to this book not being for me.

Lilly:

Yeah. It was realistic though. I mean, we called it a dystopia. It's a sort of, I'm going to say post apocalyptic, but I think the apocalypse is just humanity being humanity

Sara:

yeah,

Lilly:

a very, well, I'm gonna say a very close future. It's set in, or it starts in July 2024.

Sara:

which was kind of wild to be reading it in California, not Southern California, but in California in the months that it starts out. That, something about that just hit me when I started reading it. I was like, wow. And it, like you say, it, it is distressingly realistic. The book was published in 1993. But there are, there are some big like Trump or, or alt right vibes to. the dystopia and the government, the current government in the novel. Not that we see a lot of it, but we hear about it a little bit.

Lilly:

Well, the government and also some, some people's mindsets.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Where do I have, where'd my note go? After all, politicians have been promising to return us to the glory, wealth, and order of the 20th century ever since I can remember. So, making it great again, perhaps?

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

And then, of course, from the perspective of a person of color, for which the 20th century probably sucked pretty hard.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

It gives it an extra dimension there. But, it's such a fascinating experience because it is so similar to our familiar world. It's not the, like, Mad Max version of post society, right? There are still houses standing, there are still universities operating, there is still a government, although it's pretty hands off, and police and the National Guard are pretty much just seen as a nuisance and not actually helpful, which is not that far off. And it's the scarcity of water that makes it hard to grow food, which means it's, it's very a very reasonable take on the collapse of civilization.

Sara:

Yeah, it, it doesn't go to any extremes that would make it easier to write off as impossible.

Lilly:

And we don't get that sort of comforting veil between us and the content because of that, right? Because there are high fantasy novels that are commenting directly on society today, but because there is that distance of metaphor, it's easy, it's not easier to engage with the message, but it is less stressful to engage with the message. Whereas this book does not spare you any of that.

Sara:

I think also kind of paradoxically, the fact that there's so much hope and optimism in the novel, not necessarily about the but just the mindset that the characters have of working together and forming a community, that also kind of makes it harder to read me, because If it was everyone for themselves, I feel like I could brush it away a little easier.

Lilly:

I have some opinions on the optimism of this book that are very firmly in the spoiler section. So, we can chat about that in a little bit. But it is the parable of the sower. There's a lot of religion in this book. The main character is raised Christian. Her father is a That's a type of Christian, isn't it?

Sara:

It is a branch of Christianity, yes.

Lilly:

see, I always go big umbrella so that I don't get it wrong. I don't know, you're one of those. Which she sort of, I don't want to say plays along with, but plays along with because she respects her father and doesn't want to stress him out. But she doesn't really internalize it the same way that he does. She's not a true believer of his religion, but she does believe in a higher power. And a lot of this book, I mean, she is writing a parable. She's writing a religious text about her own interpretation of what God is, which was a fascinating thing to sort of follow her through on that journey.

Sara:

It was, it was really interesting. I agree. It did get a little too religious for my taste precisely because of that framework of her trying to put into words her belief system and really interrogate what her belief system was it, yeah, like that just, it was a little too much for me sometimes.

Lilly:

did not find it off putting, which is strange for me.

Sara:

I know, I'm a, I'm a little surprised to hear you say that, to be honest.

Lilly:

And I think it is because of that interrogation aspect. I mean, self interrogation aspect, right? She's trying to understand it. Oh, but she is also spreading it, too.

Sara:

I mean, she's definitely proselytizing.

Lilly:

I can't really say why it didn't bother me. My original note was, It's framed more as comprehension rather than being a true believer. And I'm like, no, she's definitely a true believer though. So that is not the right way to say it, yeah.

Sara:

I mean, I think it maybe helps that it's not as violent as Christianity normally is. Which makes it a little more palatable, possibly.

Lilly:

And her religion, I think it's pointed out a few times in the book, has quite a lot more in common with Buddhism.

Sara:

Yeah. Mmmmm. Yeah,

Lilly:

Actually, you know what I think it is? She's the underdog. The religion that we're seeing is not the, like, culturally dominant way of thinking. And I think that power difference is what makes it more acceptable to me, as a reader.

Sara:

just sometimes a little religious for my taste. But again, like, that was very intentional. And I think that Butler does it very well. I just didn't like it.

Lilly:

There are a lot of aspects of this book that make it not for you, and I can see that clearly.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

does make me want to read more work by Octavia Butler, though. I'm so curious, like, are these aspects that were sort of making this book a different reading experience between the two of us. Is that just this story, or is that sort of how she is as an author? I don't know, I want to find out.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't know. This hasn't put me off reading Butler in general. Because I, I think this book was really good. It just wasn't for me. But I wouldn't necessarily be interested in reading the book that follows this one.

Lilly:

Oh yeah, I have no interest in finishing a series. Especially, it sounds like the series isn't finished.

Sara:

Yeah Wikipedia says that she had been working on a third novel and potentially a couple of others that she didn't finish before she passed away.

Lilly:

Yeah, no thank you.

Sara:

I, I don't know how conclusive parable of the talents is. I,

Lilly:

satisfying ending. I mean, clearly there is more happening in this world, but the plot arc of what we are following in this book, I think, has a very clear beginning, middle, and end, and I am satisfied with where it leaves off. And when I saw that there was a book two, I was like, nah, I'm good.

Sara:

I am interested in what happens next to the characters and, and in the world. And if the other aspects of the book worked enough for me, I probably would continue the series. But as I've said, it just wasn't the book for me, so I'm not going to.

Lilly:

Yeah, fair. And I am prejudiced against series, so

Sara:

You are, which I find hilarious. I'm sorry for making you read so many of them.

Lilly:

Okay, we've discussed this world a little bit, and how overall it is basically just Earth, not even plus a few years, just if maybe things had gone off the rails slightly sooner.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

So, I mean, I definitely feel some elements That remind me of horror, although I would never argue that this book counts as horror. Like, that's not the main genre. And I guess dystopian is considered a SFF genre. So even though it is so similar to reality, I think that does push it.

Sara:

yeah, especially because it's, at the time that it was written, it was future dystopia.

Lilly:

yeah, it's intended to be future dystopia, even though it is maybe just, just tomorrow. It was interesting, like there's still electricity, there's still, well there's not water, but that's like the whole, the whole point.

Sara:

and also very true to California. I mean, we get a little more water than they do in the novel. I think at one point Lauren says that it's been six years since it last rained but that, that drought aspect felt very familiar. Slightly exaggerated, but. Very familiar.

Lilly:

slightly, slightly exaggerated. But it's interesting, there are still telephones, working telephones, you could tell that this was written in the 90s though, because the technology was still working, despite the breakdown of society and infrastructure, but people still had to like, travel to work. There's a whole plot point about how her father has to travel to work. the university to teach, like, every couple of days, and that journey is very dangerous. And it's like, well, Zoom classes.

Sara:

On the other hand, I kind of feel like that added to our current level of technology being different, added to the sense that their society had undergone some kind of regressive semi apocalypse, because I could believe That the electricity grid was not good enough to support zoom classes for everyone.

Lilly:

Well, for everyone, sure.

Sara:

So like, I don't know it, I get your point, but I also feel like in reading it today, that still kind of works.

Lilly:

I mean, you're right. I think it's just the not acknowledging it as even a possibility that makes it feel antiquated in a way. Because if it was we used to have internet, but the connection went out and no one can fix it. And so it's been five years. And Like, our neighborhood's been cut off. That would feel like, okay, sure, they don't have internet, whatever. But the not even acknowledging it, and I'm not saying that this book should have, but if it weren't for that, it would feel like 100 percent just modern

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

in a very unsettling way. But there is one thing that I think pushes it firmly into the SFF category, which is that Lauren, our main character, has what she calls sharing, which is where if she sees someone in pain or injured, she experiences that same pain herself.

Sara:

It's a advanced form of, like, hyper empathy, I think is what they call it.

Lilly:

And it's a little bit unclear when it's first brought up, just for, like, a page, whether it is. simply, you know, her being very sensitive or an actual supernatural experience. But then we learned that when she was younger, if she saw someone hurt, she would actually start bleeding. And so I think that was sort of a line in the sand of Butler saying, no, no, this is a real thing. This is a true phenomena that is happening. Question a lot, but don't question that.

Sara:

Yeah, it, it definitely is a thing. And I thought it was really interesting the way that just the perception of pain could be used to manage this hyper empathy or this sharing, too, because as long as you didn't, know or didn't think that someone was in pain, he, like, he wouldn't feel it. And so there are times when she has to try to convince herself or convince other people that, that she's okay. So that other people with this affliction don't, don't feel things.

Lilly:

And there was the story about her shithead little brother using red paint to fake an injury and cause her to have a real injury from it.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

is what made it like, that pushed it to the magical for me. Like we had a very brief fantasy or sci fi. To me a sci fi version of this would be something like, it would be less about perception, but because it is so perception based, like, her perception of whether or not someone's hurt, that makes it feel more like magic and less like a supernatural, like, ability.

Sara:

I still think it's mostly, I fall mostly on the science fiction side of things for this.

Lilly:

For the book overall, because dystopian is generally considered sci fi, I will agree with you. Because the setting is so sci fi.

Sara:

the setting is sci fi, but also the origin of her hyper empathy is essentially her mother abused drugs. When she was pregnant, and that's what caused this.

Lilly:

Yeah, except fake pain shouldn't trigger it, I don't know. That made it, that felt too silly to me. The fact that fake pain could trigger it was just like, okay, so you're just being dramatic,

Sara:

I don't know. I mean, the brain is a weird thing.

Lilly:

I guess. It reminded me a little bit of St. Death's Daughter, which we read last year, I think?

Sara:

I think we read that two years ago, actually.

Lilly:

Some amount of time.

Sara:

We read it in the past.

Lilly:

And that also has a main character who has basically the same type of situation. Although I think it's a little bit more one to one. Like, if someone is injured, she experiences that injury. There's no, like,

Sara:

She's,

Lilly:

it or perception, it's just is.

Sara:

yeah, she's, she's allergic to violence.

Lilly:

I'd really, I know that's the cutesy way they explain it on the back of the book, but that's not accurate. It's not like she starts sneezing when there's violence around.

Sara:

She has a very strong reaction to violence.

Lilly:

Anyway, so, it reminded me of that. Very different books.

Sara:

Very different books. I hadn't thought of that comparison until you mentioned it. And I guess I can see where you're coming from.

Lilly:

I mean, just in that case, it's a direct one to one thing.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

That's the only similarity, perhaps, but hard to argue against.

Sara:

I'm not trying to argue against it. I see where you're coming from.

Lilly:

it. That's all right. I see you. Well, one thing that this book doesn't be a huge downer about is sex. Other than, you know, all of the graphic rape, the consensual sex is very pleasant and nice and generally without consequences.

Sara:

I wouldn't say if it was without consequences because there are some characters who get pregnant when they don't necessarily want to or need to, aren't there?

Lilly:

It's a risk that they are aware of and that Lauren is not willing to deal with. or is not willing to risk, but that some people have accepted as like, yeah, that might happen.

Sara:

Yeah but you're right, it is, it is a pretty sex positive book when it comes to the consensual sexual relationships.

Lilly:

Yeah. I was very pleasantly surprised.

Sara:

I think it's nice that it's not all sexual assaults.

Lilly:

That's a good point. If all depictions of sex had been violent and non consensual, that would give the book a very different vibe. And it would also make those experiences feel different because then it's just, yeah, everything about the world sucks. Instead of, no, there are, there are good things, which makes the things that suck even worse. It was, well. We're slipping into my pessimism versus optimism, which is still a spoiler.

Sara:

It is still a spoiler, but we can move on to the spoiler section.

Lilly:

But first, who should read this book? I think horror fans would like it, even if this is not necessarily horror.

Sara:

yeah, I think, I think if you're interested in classic science fiction and fantasy, this book is worth reading because it is Like an important written by an important author. And I think it's an important book in the, like the genre.

Lilly:

That being said, on the spectrum of science fiction fantasy, it is very far on the realism end.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

There is just a small enough percentage. of SFF elements that make it under that umbrella, but it's right on the edge.

Sara:

Yeah. But I mean, it, when you talk about like towering works in the genre, it, this is mentioned.

Lilly:

It is, but don't read this book if the only thing you like about SFF is elves or spaceships

Sara:

yes,

Lilly:

or

Sara:

no, no, what, no, what you're getting into. When you start reading it,

Lilly:

There's not a single dragon in this whole book.

Sara:

damn. Maybe, maybe I would have liked it a little bit more had there been. Although, it probably still would have been too depressing for me, even with dragons.

Lilly:

Yeah, unless the dragon was the god in the machine that just came down and killed all the bad slave owners. It's like, you're free now.

Sara:

Unless the dragons are magically solving all of the problems that this dystopian has.

Lilly:

Oh, but see, then it wouldn't be the same book because, okay, this is the very last comment I can make before we have to go to the spoiler section. As bad as this world is, regular people do have the power to enact change, positive change, and that is, like, at the heart of it, I think, what makes this book Not just a really depressing read.

Sara:

Yeah, and I, I think that's a really important point, too. And an important theme in the book and it would be a very different different novel, a different story if dragons magically came and solved all of the problems. And it wouldn't be as powerful a story with that ending but possibly it would be a little less depressing and I would like it a little more. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at fi at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. All right. So, sex positivity. I know exactly. It freaked me out too a little bit.

Sara:

Yeah I, I know that the relationship between Lauren and Ben Cole, who is like a 50 year old man that they meet on when they are leaving their enclave and trying to find a better home. It's totally consensual. There's, there's nothing wrong. With their relationship, but the age gap between them, because Lauren's like 18 and He's a 50 year old man.

Lilly:

he's 57. I think he's even older than 50. Yeah.

Sara:

Yeah. It, it just gives me a little bit of ick, still.

Lilly:

Oh boy. We don't have a pet peeve section for this episode, but the ick is definitely a pet peeve of mine. We won't go into it, but I hate it so much. I agree with you. For me, it was less of the age gap and more of how much she compared him to her father. To her very recently dead father.

Sara:

that was also a little bit, yeah, yeah, uncomfortable for me.

Lilly:

And I felt the same way. But I do think there's also an aspect of this is a situation where there are not a lot of options. So there are different calculations to make that makes it a lot less weird in their world than it would today.

Sara:

Maybe, I mean, I feel like I just not have sex. In that case, but I'm also ace. So I understand that my calculation is a little different from many people. But yeah, it's, it just, like I said, entirely consensual. She, she, They both choose it.

Lilly:

It's also a world where there's not the same power imbalance as there would be in our world with that kind of age gap.

Sara:

Yes. There's, there's not, I would say there's not a power imbalance between the two of them, which does make things a little better.

Lilly:

And if anything, Lauren is the leader of the group,

Sara:

yeah,

Lilly:

so, and it's, she's had a life where. She's been an adult for years at this point. Eighteen is not, barely leaving her parents home. I mean, technically she lived with her parents, but it's not the same thing.

Sara:

I mean, she, she is mature. She does have a lot of life experiences. I feel like she does have the ability to make this decision and not have me think that her judgment is compromised in some way.

Lilly:

It's just weird.

Sara:

It's just weird. Yeah. Yeah.

Lilly:

I really appreciated that the book and Banquo, is that how you pronounce his name?

Sara:

I don't know how to pronounce his name.

Lilly:

I don't know why I thought googling it would help me. Pronunciation, that would be more helpful. Bankole. Bankole. Bankole. I thought so.

Sara:

That makes more sense. Although I would have expected to see an accent on the E.

Lilly:

I think that's just an anglicization thing, right? Bankole himself. When he asks Lauren how old she is and finds out she's only 18, he's like, Oh no! Welp! And they have some conversations around, like, he wants to introduce her to his sister and her family, and Lauren's like, She's gonna hate me! I'm younger than her! I'm the same age as her kids! And then Cole is like, Too bad! And then it's very sad because his whole family's But that's kind of this book in a nutshell, huh?

Sara:

Yes. I mean, and I do appreciate that they have that, those conversations, and that the book has those conversations, but it is still weird.

Lilly:

It when he was talking about, you know, I, like my sister lives on this land I have in Humboldt County and it's like the perfect little place we can settle down. You can start your religious cult. It's not what she calls it, but you know.

Sara:

That is kind of what it is.

Lilly:

You know what? Maybe it's because the goal of her cult is to go to space, and that is just so whimsical that I'm like, you get there, girl. You go to space.

Sara:

fine, I'm fine with the idea of, of her cult and her religion I just didn't need quite as many religious verses.

Lilly:

Did you? I know you typically don't read things at the beginnings of chapters. Did you read all of the verses?

Sara:

I did, yeah.

Lilly:

Because you skipped them in Dune, which I thought was funny.

Sara:

I didn't skip them in Dune. I read them in Dune.

Lilly:

did? Okay.

Sara:

Yeah. It's, I don't typically read chapter titles, but I do usually read, like, if there's a little bit of whatever at the beginning of a chapter, I do usually read that.

Lilly:

Well, yeah, there's The setting in this book is so brutal. We're seeing indentured servitude slash slavery coming back, the reinvention of company towns. It's not good. This is not a good place to live. But then the flip side of that is there is a lot of kindness in this book. And seeing Lauren create change, through kindness was something that I think made the reading experience so much less bleak. And I mean, her whole dogma is change is the only constant, basically. And so when things change, all you can do is try to change them for the better. And seeing her go out and just do the damn thing was really cool.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I

Sara:

was

Lilly:

it was still a very stressful world. And then seeing people trying to be good in all of that stress, it was really cool. It's all additionally very stressful.

Sara:

Yeah. I, I did, I did appreciate that. There's kind of, this juxtaposition of the terrible, terrible world that they're in and the kindness that the characters show each other. And the change that they're trying to bring about. But it was still too bleak for me

Lilly:

It, it starts off in their gated community. They have a neighborhood with a wall around it. And that keeps all of the looters and the pyromaniacs and everything out.

Sara:

for a while anyway.

Lilly:

Until everything gets burnt down and they're stuck alone. And so in that situation, at the beginning of the novel, it's trust no one outside of the community. Only trust each other. And so when it burns down, and there are only three survivors, Lauren and two other people, who she didn't really know, the cast of characters in this book changes dramatically halfway through.

Sara:

Yes. Well, the circumstances changed dramatically halfway through.

Lilly:

And so they start off, they're going north, because there's more water and therefore things are less shitty. It's true though, everyone from Southern California does want to move to Seattle. I say, not at all, having done that myself. I didn't walk it though, that's crazy.

Sara:

It would be a very long walk.

Lilly:

And so as they start this journey, they have a similar, like, trust no one, only rely on each other. And then the slow, sort of, expansion of who the us in Us vs. Them is was very nice. It was also very funny, and they addressed it, how it went from trust no one to just picking up strays left and right. But there was sort of a tipping point when their little group became big enough that picking up one stray one stray, one other person trying to move north who is very vulnerable on the road alone, doesn't, I mean, they're still vulnerable to, you know, one person going rogue and stealing from them and killing them and running away, but the safety and numbers aspect of it, I don't know, it was a good book. I liked it.

Sara:

Well, I really appreciated how they recognized that on the road, trust no one. While there's some sense in it, it's maybe not the right thing to do. Only way to survive

Lilly:

not

Sara:

that, yeah, it's not sustainable and, and they, they can and should try to group up with other people that them, you know, like, don't, don't trust blindly, but. But they can expand that level of trust.

Lilly:

Yeah, and the idea that the exclusionary, guarded approach is really only an emergency measure, right? Like, they needed to do that for the first couple of days while they were sort of getting on their feet, learning the ropes. Because also, two of the people in this, the three person group that starts, Lauren and I don't remember the guy's name at all, but that's okay. had never been outside of the neighborhood, so they don't know anything about the world

Sara:

Not, not for any extended period of time anyway.

Lilly:

They had never interacted with people outside.

Sara:

Yeah, they'd not lived outside of the neighborhood.

Lilly:

But once they sort of get their feet under them, that's when they start opening up and, and accepting others. It's, it's a very sad book. I mean, ultimately optimistic, I think, but the journey of reading was very sad. Mm

Sara:

It's interesting because I kind of feel like I would have liked it a lot more if I had been younger. Because when I was younger I did read a couple of other novels when I mean, like, middle, middle grade books, like, aimed at younger readers definitely didn't deal with quite as bleak themes or, or didn't have as deft a, a touch with the theme as, as this book did of people creating a, a self sufficient community. After some kind of apocalypse. Like I can think of a couple of books like that, that I read when I was a kid and really enjoyed. So I, I almost feel like I would have liked this more had I read it at like 18.

Lilly:

There is. A tipping point that I don't, I don't think everyone goes through, but a lot of our family has. only because I've heard this conversation ad nauseum yesterday, but where realism loses its appeal.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

It's like how my mother only wants to watch Hallmark movies. She's like, I get enough of the hard parts from real life. Let's just be silly and sweet and fun. Like, no consequences. I know there will be a happy ending. And I don't think you and I are quite there yet

Sara:

No. Well, I, I also think that when I was a kid, I found The idea of self sufficiency and building up after some kind of apocalypse, a lot more romantic than I do now,

Lilly:

because I think it's closer to, I mean, it's not real. We're not in an apocalypse right now,

Sara:

I think I, I think I have a better appreciation for just how damn hard that would be,

Lilly:

Yeah. Mm

Sara:

and I, I didn't have that as a child, and so it was, it, it was more like a fun adventure. And now I'm like, man, that would really suck.

Lilly:

hmm. Out of the character deaths in this book, Okay, when the neighborhood burns down and everyone dies, that was sad, but it was so much happening at once that I, along with Lauren, were kind of like, Well, gotta keep on truckin No time to be sad about this.

Sara:

it also feels kind of removed when it happens. Just the way that it's described. Which since it's Lauren writing about her experience could have very well been a self defense mechanism.

Lilly:

And it is one of the times when she's writing about it a couple of days after it happened,

Sara:

yeah,

Lilly:

whereas some of the entries in this book are, like, talking about the same day. Mm hmm.

Sara:

right.

Lilly:

And when her father goes missing, we get a couple of entries, you know, right after he goes missing, while he's missing, while she's trying to find him, and we sort of see her losing hope over that period of time. And it's much more immediate than in this case, when it's like, well, a couple of days ago, everything happened,

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

now we're here. But there was one death that I was like, I was waiting for this. Keith, her shitty ass little brother. He sucked. He

Sara:

he, he, he did suck. He did deserve it. I still didn't want to hear about all of the graphic things that happened to him. It was, it was a little much for

Lilly:

Well, yeah, sure.

Sara:

But he was a shitty person, and I'm not surprised that he got a shitty end.

Lilly:

that happened early enough in the book because that was before the neighborhood burns down and everything. When is still sort of insulated in this community, it's still very separatist from the rest of the world, and her little brother goes off and becomes a looter, basically. And, As the reader, I hadn't quite gotten my arms around where this book was gonna go. How, how could you? The big thing hadn't happened yet. And so there's a moment where I'm wondering, is this book gonna go, yeah, you have to be cruel in order to succeed? Because that's what happens with him for a little while. I think like six months of book time, only a couple of chapters, or a couple of entries, as far as reading time goes. But he's, you know, out in the world, he's robbing people, he's murdering them, he's bringing back stacks of cash for his mom. And it's like, oh no! Is that Is the moral of this story gonna be that you have to be cruel in order to not struggle. That would be sad. That would have been much sadder to me.

Sara:

I, I mean, that would have been a terrible grimdark kind of, book moral, but that's,

Lilly:

when he dies a slow, terrible, painful death, it was like, okay, okay, good.

Sara:

I, I feel like his death is kind of the advance warning that things are not going to stay. I don't want to say idyllic because their life in the gated community is definitely not idyllic. But You know, there's, there's some level of

Lilly:

Safety.

Sara:

safety and leisure that they experience in that community. And I think Keith's death is the warning to the reader that shit's going to go down pretty soon.

Lilly:

Yeah. Other than Keith. No, he was pretty reasonable too. I mean, I disagreed with his reasoning, but he was reasonable.

Sara:

I think, I think he was a product of his society.

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

And I don't think that he was a good person, but I could see how he came about.

Lilly:

Well, and I was going to say most of the characters, if not all of the characters in this book, similarly. Even when they're making bad decisions, they're very reasonable people. I really liked how Lauren's father explained to her when he did things that she disagreed with. He actually took the time to say why and explain like his life experiences that led him to this decision instead of just, I'm the adult, listen to me, which I think happens a lot in books so that the kid can rebel and then have it go to shit and then have the adults go, why didn't you listen to me? And then it's like, cause you didn't tell them why fuck face,

Sara:

Yeah, all of the characters, I didn't always like everyone, but everyone was understandable.

Lilly:

which I really appreciated.

Sara:

Yeah. And I didn't get frustrated with intentional miscommunication for the sake of furthering the plot, which I think is, is what you've basically just said.

Lilly:

Yeah, it was. A really good book. I'm excited to read more Octavia Butler.

Sara:

It was a really good book. I didn't like it, but it was a really good book.

Lilly:

I need more preteen cannibals.

Sara:

We don't really get a lot of, I mean, there's, there's mention of those.

Lilly:

We see them on so it was kind of the oh fuck moment that also, in my opinion, pushes the horror aspect. They're the group is smaller at this point, they're traveling through, they're kind of hiking around to avoid more populated areas, and they are looking for a place to camp and they stumble upon this group of like three or four preteens, I want to say like 12, 13 years old, just eating human arms, just gnawing on them. And at this point, Lauren has been, you know, picking up kids. Like they saved a three year old whose parents had been shot accidentally. They've picked up a family that had a baby. And so it was like, oh, is Lauren going to like save these kids from this? Nope. Everyone was like, nope, nope. Fuck that. We're out of here.

Sara:

Very, very sensibly so, I think.

Lilly:

It makes sense. If you're starving, like that's going to happen. We've seen that happen, right? When, when it's, death or taboo. People pick the taboo. And that, like, gruesome moment of social niceties are over out here was my, like, hell yeah horror, but

Sara:

that was my I'm okay, I'm good, thanks. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us. We are on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find our show notes and a lot of other nonsense. Bye!

Sara:

for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!