Fiction Fans

Unseen Academicals by Terry Pratchett

• Episode 155

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Your hosts pretend to know things about football in their discussion about Unseen Academicals by Terry Pratchett. They talk about character arcs, well developed (and well developed) female characters, and sweet little precious baby goblins.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

and tonight we embark on our journey to the center of the Discworld! Except we are sure on the other side of the Discworld by now, aren't we?

Sara:

I mean, we're, I think we have like five books left or something. We're, we're quite close. Four,

Lilly:

I think the reason why that name for this segment still works is because

Sara:

four books left. This is the fifth. I just counted.

Lilly:

Someone better at math than me could probably quickly figure out what percentage of the way through we were through the series. Surely more than the center.

Sara:

90 percent.

Lilly:

Okay, so my argument is going to be that the center does not refer to the halfway point. The center refers to when you are mired in culture, and storytelling, and commitment to the characters in the world. We're not halfway through Discworld, we're in the center of it. We have gotten through so many stories that we are now, like, fully engaged. And that's why my dumb, off the cuff name for a segment that we started three years ago. Is still accurate.

Sara:

Interesting, I've always imagined it as, like, actually a physical thing

Lilly:

yeah, that's what

Sara:

a metaphorical thing.

Lilly:

Yeah, no, no we are drastically changing the definition of the phrase to justify continuing to use it.

Sara:

Okay. I mean, I feel like you could justify continuing to use it just by tradition and this book and Ponder Stibbons would firmly endorse that usage.

Lilly:

Oh, absolutely it would and we can dive into that a little bit more later, but I'm sorry for getting us off track because we have some very important questions first, including, what is something great that happened recently?

Sara:

My good thing this week is that I have been renovating my backyard. I put in like a brick patio or brick pathways to go around my raised beds so that I wasn't walking through knee high weeds, which is what I had previously been walking through. And it looks really nice. I'm really pleased. The work finished yesterday. And yeah, maybe I'll actually start using my backyard a little bit.

Lilly:

Aw, it looks so good. I really have loved the pictures you've sent me.

Sara:

Yeah, I need to buy some patio furniture and a like a why am I blanking on the name? There's a word that I'm looking for. I need to buy patio furniture and a fire pit because I think having a fire pit out there would be really nice.

Lilly:

Absolutely.

Sara:

And there's still some other stuff I want to do. Like I want to buy a couple more plants to go in pots. And I want to plant one of my fruit trees in the ground. And I have to re put stuff into the raised beds because the workers took all of the plants out when they were bricking bricking the pathways. But yeah, it's like 95 percent done.

Lilly:

Yay! Aw, that's so exciting.

Sara:

Yeah, very

Lilly:

can't wait to see it in person.

Sara:

Have to come and visit soon.

Lilly:

Yeah. My good thing, I think I'm obligated to say, was that My anniversary was last weekend.

Sara:

I think you are obligated to say that.

Lilly:

It's also true, I'm just saying, like,

Sara:

It can be two things at

Lilly:

yeah. We had some plans. That were kind of immensely derailed.

Sara:

which is a shame.

Lilly:

Life happens. But we were still able to play too much Baldur's Gate because, I mean, I should probably clarify, when I say my anniversary, I meant my wedding anniversary, not the release of Baldur's Gate 3 anniversary. However, those are also the same thing. And we did celebrate accordingly.

Sara:

I did not realize they were the same thing. What

Lilly:

Larian Studios knows when my husband and I met. And they do all of their big game releases on our anniversary. It's very convenient.

Sara:

That's very considerate of them. When you say played too much Baldur's Gate, how much is too much?

Lilly:

And not nearly enough because, like I said, I tried to take time off of work so that we could, like, play for four days straight. That was our original plan. And then while I took the time off of work, We were not able to spend all that time playing.

Sara:

That is too bad?

Lilly:

So less than intended, but still a good amount.

Sara:

Nice. Well, I'm glad you had a good anniversary celebration.

Lilly:

Thank you. It was lovely. And also my husband is too, so what are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I am drinking cider.

Lilly:

That does feel appropriate for the book.

Sara:

It does. I thought about drinking sherry because there are some scenes of sherry drinking in this book. I thought about opening a bottle of champagne. Because there's also a, some champagne drinking in this book, but I don't have sherry, and champagne doesn't keep very well, so I decided that cider was easier.

Lilly:

True. Tonight I have, it's called Simple Wines, but it's in a little can. It's very cute, and it's Peach Italian Wine Cocktail.

Sara:

Is it any good?

Lilly:

It's very sweet, so I like it. It's, Extra funny, because on the back of the can, there's like, two little symbols. And one's a cork! A corkscrew with a big cross through it. And the other one is a wine glass with a big cross through it. My kind of beverage. You don't need any of that fancy shit.

Sara:

I probably would not like the drink, but I do like those two warnings.

Lilly:

Yes. Have you read anything? Not for the podcast lately.

Sara:

I read our next Nostalgia Book Club pick, which semi counts because that episode is going to be coming out on on Wednesdays we read. podcast, not on our podcast, thus it was not for our podcast.

Lilly:

There you go. I could argue that it was still podcast related, but I won't.

Sara:

It, it was podcast related. The answer is no, I haven't read anything not podcast related, except a lot of fan fiction.

Lilly:

I could lie and say that I have started to read the submissions for our next issue of Solstitia,

Sara:

Oh, I did actually start that. I read about 10.

Lilly:

oh, there you go! So you're not procrastinating until the last minute this time! What a concept!

Sara:

Except that then I got overwhelmed by the fact that we had like 60, and so I stopped.

Lilly:

Yes, well, when this episode comes out, will submissions still be open? I'm not sure, actually.

Sara:

Submissions are open until September 8th, so I believe that yes, they will be.

Lilly:

Excellent. In that case I am looking forward to reading all of the other submissions that we get. And also all the ones I haven't read yet, because I have not actually started. But I will, soon. It's also technically podcast related, so I guess we both cheated today.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

But we are actually here to talk about Unseen Academicals. What a

Sara:

We are finally at the Discworld books I've only ever read once before bit of Discworld.

Lilly:

We are definitely past any of the books that I've read. Well, I say that. I read Making Money before. I think the fact that I had read the Moist von Lipwig novels made it seem like I had read a lot more of Discworld than I actually had.

Sara:

I definitely thought that you had read a lot more of Discworld than I have concluded that you actually did.

Lilly:

It's true. The problem is that in my youth, I did not avail libraries as much as I should have. And I was also poor, because I was a youth.

Sara:

That is, that is valid.

Lilly:

And that adds up to not being able to read a lot of books. But, oh my gosh! This is definitely my favorite wizard's book. This is considered a wizard's book.

Sara:

I think that this is considered a wizard's book. Let me go check the very handy Wikipedia page about Discworld. Technically it's considered as part of the industrial revolution. But I think that we've decided that that. Label as bunk, because it includes Monstrous Regiment, The Truth and Moving Pictures, and not any of the Moist von Lipwig books. So, I think this is a wizard's book.

Lilly:

Yeah, okay. If, if they wanted to lump the truth in with Moislam V With moist fun with fig, I'd be like, sure, yeah, okay. But, okay, even moving pictures, I could see. Monstrous Regiment is not an industrial revolution. It's a social revolution, obviously.

Sara:

Yeah, Monstrous Regiment does not fit in at all there.

Lilly:

And neither does this book. Also a cultural revolution, not industrial. Like, do they know what that word means?

Sara:

I think it's being counted as Industrial Revolution just because of the time period. Because

Lilly:

Except, wait, time period. Like, when the book was written, or when it takes place in Agmarpork.

Sara:

when it takes place in Ankh Morpork, because there has been a lot of industrial revolution going on, I don't think that's a good argument. To be clear.

Lilly:

But even then, like, moving pictures is so much earlier.

Sara:

Yeah, moving pictures is a lot earlier.

Lilly:

I I, yeah. That is the worst subcategory for Discworld. Just, like, definition wise.

Sara:

I mean, I'm pretty sure that every time we've read a book that is technically considered, quote unquote, industrial revolution Discworld, we have argued about that definition. Not between each other, to be clear. Like, we agree that it's bunk but just with the fact that that subcategory exists.

Lilly:

It's simply an unhelpful category. Especially if we think of our official recommendation, which is pick a sub series and start there. Like, you're not going to actually enjoy yourself if you go, Oh yeah, the industrial revolution! That's a topic I'm interested in.

Sara:

I think for me, the problem is that the books are so disparate,

Lilly:

Yeah, even if you liked the first one, you won't, wouldn't necessarily like the

Sara:

yeah, they're not related to each other. I mean, like you say, moving pictures is so early on in the series. It doesn't have anything to do with anything. I mean it's, it's basically a standalone. Like the truth, at least some of those characters show up. Because the newspaper shows up and, and so it's relevant. But, moving pictures. I mean, that's the first thing that we get Ponder Stippens in, I guess. So it's,

Lilly:

Regiment? No.

Sara:

yeah. I love Monstrous Regiment, but it has no relation to these books whatsoever.

Lilly:

Ugh, okay. Well, that small rant aside. Oh my god, I loved this book. This might be it. Officially be competing for favorite Discworld novel.

Sara:

Oh wow. I, I really enjoyed this book too. I wouldn't say that it's my favorite Discworld book.

Lilly:

I said competing.

Sara:

I, I know, I know. I, I wouldn't even say that it competes for favorite Discworld book. But I did really enjoy it, which is funny because I remember reading it the first time and not. being that impressed with it. And I, rereading it today, which is, as I've said, the first time I've reread it, I don't know why I didn't like it or was just kind of meh about it, because it's great.

Lilly:

Did you not read it as part of like a broad reread? Was it just sort of

Sara:

Well, so I read it when it came out because I had, for the later Discworld books I had Caught up with the series and I was reading them as they came out and I had not reread or at least I don't think I had reread any books close to its release

Lilly:

Well that kind of takes the wind out of my sails for the argument I was going to make in a little bit. But I can start now. I

Sara:

Go for it.

Lilly:

you could start here. There are characters who have excellent character arcs.

Sara:

Interesting.

Lilly:

That we only see the end of here, however, I don't think there is any necessary backstory.

Sara:

You know, I think I agree with you actually that you could start here. Because,

Lilly:

yeah

Sara:

the, the main characters that it follows are unique to this novel. Yes, there's a lot of, like you say backstory that kind of enhances things, like, all of the wizards that are mentioned, obviously you, you get to know them in the other books but you don't really need to for this one.

Lilly:

If you say that when you read it, when it, like, quote unquote, as a standalone, when it came out, and it didn't really do the job for you, that now makes me question myself. Or were you just wrong back then?

Sara:

think that I was just wrong back then.

Lilly:

Excellent, I

Sara:

I don't actually think it has anything to do with the quality of the book, I think it has to do with the quality of the reader. I think I was just wrong.

Lilly:

I mean, it's a good book. Now, that might be because it hits some buttons for me, which we'll get into in a little bit. But first As we are not starting here, obviously, there are some really, really wonderful arcs that we see the end of in this book. And the first one that you have noted down is Ponder Stivens,

Sara:

Yeah, so I really like Ponder Stibbon's character arc over the course of the wizard books, and I'm gonna call this a wizard book. It takes place in the Unseen University.

Lilly:

It's a wizard book!

Sara:

there's a lot of wizards. It's a wizard book. Even if the main characters aren't wizards, they are employed by Unseen University. I will die on this hill. But we see Ponder Stibbons and he has taken on a lot of jobs in the university because he's kind of the only competent one. To the point that I think he says that he holds 12 jobs and he has, like, the majority vote on,

Lilly:

He's a whole committee.

Sara:

yeah, he's, he basically could run the university by himself if he wanted to. And I love that when we first meet him in moving pictures, he's, Like this lazy student who only passes because he gets someone else's exam, like major exam, where the only question is what is your name? And, and then we see him as the series progresses, and he's just a very, very minor character in moving pictures, but as the series progresses he, you know, takes on more duties, and like, he kind of does some post grad work with Hex, and then he becomes a professor, and I just, I don't know, I, I think seeing him rise through the ranks is a fun thing. Kind of extra like it doesn't add anything to the books really, but it's just neat. I just like it

Lilly:

add something to the books, technically.

Sara:

Yeah

Lilly:

I think some of the early stuff feels, personally, less like character arc and more like, who is this character?

Sara:

Oh, yeah

Lilly:

what the fuck is going on? I mean, if you go from kid who got the wrong rigged exam to Invented the first computer? That's kind of a jump.

Sara:

I don't necessarily disagree I I do think that some of that character arc is retroactive but he does have this progression uh that that makes mostly coherent sense as you read through the books.

Lilly:

Yeah, and if you're willing to sort of fill in the gaps yourself, I'm only giving you a hard time because, who was it? Oh, Carrot. It's Carrot. And you say that he doesn't get to have a character arc because we didn't see it happen. But here's a minor character where you're like, It's great!

Sara:

that's, that's fair. I, I still think that it doesn't happen enough for Carrot.

Lilly:

And so that I think is bias, because Carrot is a dude bro, whereas Ponder Stibbins is a intellectual bro,

Sara:

He's, he's a tech bro.

Lilly:

and one of them is getting the benefit of the doubt there.

Sara:

although, although actually tech bros should never be given the benefit of the doubt. But I'm willing to admit to maybe a little bit of bias cause I just, Kara just bores me. I'm sorry.

Lilly:

that's fine, I just needed to say my piece.

Sara:

That's, that's valid. I won't argue too much about that.

Lilly:

Because, yeah, not, yeah, anyway. One thing that is probably on me, because it does come up in almost every book he's in, but Ridcully, the arch chancellor of the Unseen University, the ostensible head wizard, although there's some discussion around that,

Sara:

He has the hat anyway, even if he doesn't wear it.

Lilly:

yes. But he's a, speaking of, he's a bro. He's the dude bro sportsman wizard. I

Sara:

He is, and yeah the fact that you forget that is definitely on you because it's made incredibly clear in every book that he's ever been in that he is the sportsman dude bro wizard.

Lilly:

think really the problem, my problem, is that that has never translated to an adaptation or at least none of the ones that I've seen. I think there is a City Watch adaptation that I just haven't seen yet.

Sara:

I mean there, there is the tv show um, that's about the city watch that came out last year,

Lilly:

I'm assuming he's not in that a lot because It's about the City Watch and not about wizards.

Sara:

It was also, with the caveat that I haven't seen it it was also, panned because they made a lot of changes and they also in some post thanking, like, everyone who inspired them to work on this I mean like the, the head writers or whatever. They had a post thanking people who inspired them to, to do this series and they didn't mention Pratchett and people got big mad about that.

Lilly:

I mean, do you have to say Pratchett? That feels like unnecessary to me. See, speaking as a fan of the Hobbit movies, I would like to see it myself before I pass judgment.

Sara:

That's fair. I, I do think that they make more changes than the Hobbit movies do just judging by what I've heard about it.

Lilly:

I

Sara:

again, with very big asterisks, I've not seen it. They make Lady Sibyl thin, though.

Lilly:

I don't really trust people.

Sara:

They make Lady Sibyl thin!

Lilly:

Okay, that's a bummer. Absolutely. We gotta watch it. We can't just speculate. That's ridiculous.

Sara:

I feel like we need to watch it and then do an episode for our Patreon on it.

Lilly:

Absolutely we should. But, anyway, I have seen The Color of Magic. I have seen The Hogfather. Sorry, Hogfather. I have

Sara:

Riddikulee isn't in Color of Magic.

Lilly:

The Going Postal. He's not, but Wizards are. And I guess he is just wizard to me. Because that's how he is in the things that I have seen. And the adaptations that I have seen have definitely lost that, or like, don't even try to approach that. And so it surprises me every time. Oof.

Sara:

trying to remember if he's in Hogfather.

Lilly:

He's in Hogfather.

Sara:

Okay, he's definitely in Going Postal.

Lilly:

in the adaptation he's in. He's in it because they show up at the Unseen University. There's a whole thing with, like, they need to make the O God of Hangovers sober.

Sara:

Oh, right, right, right, yes, okay, I remember

Lilly:

There's a lot of hex in the Hogfather as well. Sorry, Hogfather. I'm never gonna get that right.

Sara:

I can see that it would be hard to show his sports bro character in Hogfather. A movie where he's not really all that central, like Hogfather or Going Postal.

Lilly:

And he's such a side character, I kind of just have to go, He's the arch chancellor of the wizards, and that's all he gets as personality. Like, he does not get to be subversive at all, because he is an archetype at that point.

Sara:

Right.

Lilly:

But you know who is in The Color of Magic? Color of Magic. THE Color of Magic. But I did get the title right eventually.

Sara:

Yes, there is the the in there. This time.

Lilly:

THE Rincewind is in Color of Magic. We haven't seen him in a long time. been a minute.

Sara:

it's been a while. You know, I wonder if the reason why this isn't considered a wizard book is because Rincewind is not the main character.

Lilly:

Garbage. It's The Wizards, not Rincewind.

Sara:

Technically, Wikipedia says that the sub series is Rincewind.

Lilly:

Okay, I think I just have a big problem with Wikipedia.

Sara:

I mean, I, I, I do think that Wikipedia is wrong on this account as well.

Lilly:

it's been a while and it is delightful to see him again. He is so minor in this book, like the minor iest of minor characters.

Sara:

He's, he's quite minor.

Lilly:

So this book is all about soccer, which, in the interest of cultural sensitivity, I will be calling football for the remainder of this episode.

Sara:

The book does call it football. I think it's interesting that this was not translated over in the American edition the way that some things are, but also there are a lot of jokes that would not work if the book was calling it soccer. They make a lot of references to, like, Foot the Ball, for example.

Lilly:

Oh yeah, none of the puns would work. And Pratchett is fairly pun based.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Anyway, poor Rincewind tries to play football. There's the whole thing. The wizards I mean, read the book. But I found myself feeling very bad for him. And then having a moment where I was like, Wait, but he's not running for his life. This is just football. This is actually great for him.

Sara:

Yeah, given what we've seen in previous books, he's actually doing quite well here.

Lilly:

Yeah. And so that, that turned it into a like, Oh, this poor character getting brought back as a punching bag. And then it was, Oh, what a, what a lovely epilogue for him as a person,

Sara:

Yeah, he, he has a professorship at the Unseen University where he doesn't have to do anything. You know, Ridkli ponders that it's basically an emeritus professorship. He just eats. Yeah. It's great.

Lilly:

and runs for his life, which is why he's so good at football. I have to admit, okay, I did start this episode by singing its praises, but I was pretty unimpressed with this book until I want to say halfway, roughly halfway through, when I completely fell in love with the characters and then was fully on board and then spent the second half loving it so hard that it blew the first half out of the water.

Sara:

Can I ask what changed your mind? Although I don't know how spoilery the answer is going to be.

Lilly:

And not at all, because it was not a specific moment. I think just over the course of the book, We have some characters that were introduced to the real main characters who we have not spoken about at all.

Sara:

mean, we haven't actually talked about the plot of this book at all.

Lilly:

Eh, football. Football is life.

Sara:

I get that reference.

Lilly:

do! I'm so glad you've seen at least some of Ted Lasso.

Sara:

Your parents need to come back so I will finish watching the rest of it.

Lilly:

Is that what it'll take? I'll let them know.

Sara:

Yeah, because I'm, as much as I enjoyed it, I'm unlikely to watch it without outside intervention, just because I don't watch things.

Lilly:

I genuinely began to love the characters. I'm saying about halfway through. I picked it up at about 40%. So, I had started reading. I picked it up at 40%. Was much more engaged. And then between the 60 percent mark was like, holy shit. So somewhere in that middle region, I think, there are some really incredible character arcs in this book. they don't pay off yet, obviously, it's only halfway through. But that's when you start to realize that they have truly been set up for something incredible. instead of just the caricatures that I was kind of worried they would be.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I think that's fair. I think the character arcs really do have great payoff. Which is not something that I always think about Pratchett's books, to be perfectly honest. But in this case, it's definitely true. I don't want to say too much. We'll go into that in the spoiler section. Obviously talking about character payoffs is going to be very spoiler heavy.

Lilly:

There's also a heck of a lot of football, which we can talk about,

Sara:

There is, there is a lot of football. The, the basic premise of this book is that in order to keep a bequest to the university, they have to participate in a football game, which they haven't done in 20 years. So they're like in danger of losing a huge amount of money, which will reduce their cheese board down to three cheeses. And obviously the wizards aren't having any of that.

Lilly:

Pratchett uses football for a lot in this book, and I think that's why I enjoyed it, despite following very little of the actual sports content. And I think the very first one is the idea of formal sports versus casual or street sports. While the idea of football is introduced to the wizards, that Nari is also kind of reforming it from a violent street sport to a formal competition with rules, etc. etc.

Sara:

regulated,

Lilly:

Yes, absolutely. In theory.

Sara:

in theory.

Lilly:

And The book has a lot of like, class discussion. Glenda, who I'm gonna call the main character, who I love so much. It's genuinely a crime, I have not talked about her before now. I think everything I love about her is a spoiler, so. She calls out both the wizards and Vet Nari. Is that a spoiler? I don't think that's a spoiler.

Sara:

I don't think it's inherently a spoiler.

Lilly:

I mean, her very, very first character introduction, you would not think she would have the guts to stand up to literally anyone. But, that's okay. We're only talking about, like, partway through her trajectory here. she calls Men of power out. for being super condescending to what this sport started as and who the fans really are and just talks about the culture of being a football fan in a way that is absolutely sort of defending, like, just because they don't have a large vocabulary doesn't mean their energy is worth less.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, she's a much lower class main character than we've had in a very long time. Like Sam Vimes obviously starts in the Shades, like that's where he's from, but quite early on in his sub series. He marries into nobility, and he also gets promoted a whole heck of a lot so that he's genuinely nobility too. And you kind of lose a little bit of that perspective, I think with his books.

Lilly:

There's also the witches, who are kind of, by definition, outside of the class structure.

Sara:

Yeah, and they also don't live in a metropolis like Ankh Morpork. So I think that there's less, obviously there's still a delineation because you have the king and queen of Lanker, but it's much more even.

Lilly:

Well, and the witch books that focus on Tiffany Aching do also have quite a bit of class discussion.

Sara:

That's true.

Lilly:

And of course Masquerade, which takes place in Hunkamore Park, pratchett also uses football as an analogy for war quite transparently. It's not an analogy, he's just like, hey also these are the same thing.

Sara:

yeah, he's, he is very blatant about it.

Lilly:

It was fun though because it comes up in a couple of different contexts. I mean, we get rival universities, rival countries, rival neighborhood gangs, and so while it is always, you know, an expression of war in a slightly less violent scenario, we get to see it on many different scales, which I thought was really fun.

Sara:

Yeah. I don't, I don't have a good comment there.

Lilly:

No, I mean, yeah, he just, he just does.

Sara:

he just, he, he does it, it's a, it's a thing and, and you're right, it is an interesting thing.

Lilly:

There was some interesting conversation around professional sports and racism, or at least I should say as someone in the United States, I recognized it. I have to assume it's similar in Britain, but one of the main characters, I mean arguably the main character, except I like Glenda better.

Sara:

I I would say that there are multiple main characters in this book of which nut is one

Lilly:

Yeah, Mr. Nut is a sweet tiny baby goblin who I love with all my heart. Some of those words are accurate, some of them are not, you can guess which ones. And, I mean, it's interesting that we've been reading a lot of books about

Sara:

was.

Lilly:

goblins and

Sara:

to say that this is completely unrelated to the book, but it feels appropriate that one of the main characters in this book is a goblin when there was a goblin. Lots of goblins. Not lots of goblins. There was a great goblin in the last book that we read.

Lilly:

Yeah, I feel like we're having a moment as a podcast.

Sara:

A goblin moment. The last, the last book that we read being Orcanomics, I, which I think is going to be the episode that has just come out before this one, but I don't actually know our calendar.

Lilly:

Time is meaningless.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Well, more importantly, Mr. Nut is an absolutely endearing character. He has to deal with a whole bunch of racist bullshit, but he's accepted. when he's participating in professional football. And I don't really follow American football enough to, and I mean not just American football, but professional sports in the United States, enough to speak super intelligently on this. But I do absolutely know that there is a very strange intersection between race and football. professional athletes that I wish I had a better comment for.

Sara:

Yeah, I like you, I don't follow sports enough to be able to speak well on the subject. To me, it kind of feels like the model minority stereotype. Where these people are accepted because they are so high performing. And they are, yeah, worthy.

Lilly:

Which, which is a comment from the book, by the way, not from us.

Sara:

And, and so they're, they're not actually necessarily accepted on their own strength. They're accepted on the basis of they are doing something that the community perceives as valuable.

Lilly:

Even farther, it's a spectacle thing, in a way, right? Like, professional athletes are on display performing. I don't, I don't actually care about sports enough to have an opinion on this, except that I've noticed it, and I know that it is also a thing. I mean, when movies like The Blind Side happen, and just like completely exploit a theoretically true story,

Sara:

I don't know what that movie is.

Lilly:

Bad

Sara:

I've never even heard of it, so like I have, I have no idea what it's about at all.

Lilly:

Sandra Bullock a black kid off the street, discovers that he's amazing at football, and then like, makes sure he gets a great deal, sports deal or something, and that makes her a good person, I think, is the movie. I have not seen the movie. I do know that the real athlete who it was quote unquote, based on, has since come out and been like, no.

Sara:

Okay. So, so big oof.

Lilly:

Yes big oof. And I think that is the perfect summation for my understanding and opinion on racism and sports.

Sara:

Yeah. I, I do kind of wonder how much nuance in this book we miss as both Americans, because America is not as big into football, what we know as soccer as the UK, and as people who are just generally not sports people.

Lilly:

Oh my god, so much. I mean, one of the teams in this book, oh, I'm gonna sound like such an idiot. Are you ready? One of the teams in this book, Was like shortened down to United. And that's a, that's a real team, right? Like there's a real team that gets shortened down to United. I think.

Sara:

Oh yeah, Manchester United.

Lilly:

Yeah, so like, well, I was just reading that going, Hmm, that sounds familiar. I think I was probably supposed to go, this is a direct reference to a real team.

Sara:

Yeah, and this didn't impact, my enjoyment of the book, but I do think there's a lot that I just didn't get because I'm not a Brit and I'm not a football person.

Lilly:

By quite a lot. And I think that's part of why the beginning of the book was not as charming for me. And I'm kind of using charming as a loose term for Compelling.

Sara:

Like, engaging.

Lilly:

Engaging. Yeah. And it took a little while for the characters to cook. And it was definitely worth the wait. But I think if I was someone who followed sports in general, or football, specifically British football, more I would probably have been into it from much earlier.

Sara:

Yeah. And, you know, thinking about that, that might be part of why I didn't get it. enjoy it the first time I read it because it came out in 2009. I was 19.

Lilly:

Sports even more then than you do now.

Sara:

well, not necessarily that, but like, these days I've at least watched a football game. Football in the soccer sense of the word. I have friends who quite like football, so I feel more related to it now than I did. And I think that does help a little bit.

Lilly:

I We're recording this pretty soon after the Olympics ended, and a co worker asked me, like, Oh, so, like, what sports do you follow? Heh. And there was a supremely awkward silence before I just had to be honest and say, none,

Sara:

I mean, like, I love gymnastics, but I don't even watch gymnastics, to be fair.

Lilly:

follow was the question.

Sara:

I used to listen to a gymnastics podcast, shout out to Gymcastic

Lilly:

it's alright. Mr. Nut, though. Our darling, sweet baby, tiny goblin who I love with all my heart. He is such an odd duck. And it was very fascinating to see, I would say, pretty early on through the book. I mean, the setup, the, hey, this is the normal situation, was all, he's a weird kid, he talks too fancy, and that turns everyone off of him, and he's very bad at reading people. And then we see him start to interact with people who do care about him more, such as Glenda, who is a cook at the Unseen. University. We also

Sara:

of the night kitchen.

Lilly:

the Night Kitchen. There's also Trevor, who is, I think, technically his boss.

Sara:

Technically.

Lilly:

They, like, make the candles atmospheric for the wizards, which is hilarious. That's their job.

Sara:

I think Trev is like in charge of the Dribblers and nut is a drib. Dribbling being, yeah, making, making the dribbles on a candle,

Lilly:

And as far as main characters go, we also have Juliet, who is Glenda's friend. also works at the Night Kitchen, is super hot and super dumb, I would say, is the, like, straightforward way of describing her. The book uses more poetry, but that's what it is.

Sara:

I, yeah, that's, that's her, that's her character.

Lilly:

And she, I have a lot of opinions about, actually. I think her character is probably what changed my opinion on this book the most, because I was very upset with her at the beginning. Not her.

Sara:

But the way, the way that she's portrayed,

Lilly:

Yes.

Sara:

yeah, yeah, we'll, we'll talk about it, because I, I agree with you. We'll, we'll talk about it.

Lilly:

But Trevor and Glenda both sort of figure out that they just need to explain to Nut why what he said was kind of rude or abrasive, and then everything is fine.

Sara:

Basically, I mean, Nut grew up very sheltered, in essence. He doesn't have a lot of social skills, but it's not because he, doesn't want to have social skills, or because he inherently doesn't have them, he just hasn't learned them.

Lilly:

Do we, do we not think he was neurodivergent?

Sara:

I mean, he could be neurodivergent, maybe. I don't, I don't know if we get enough that. Like, my impression was more that he just didn't talk to people for a variety of reasons.

Lilly:

Hmm. So, so you think it was more that he was sheltered and unsocialized?

Sara:

Yeah. But I can see the neurodivergent reading out of him.

Lilly:

I, I I would agree. I think there's the aspect of how fixated he gets on certain topics that I think pushes me more towards neurodivergent. And he understood when a social digression sorry. He understood when a social discretion Discretion? Wait, is that the right word?

Sara:

I don't know what you're trying to say, so,

Lilly:

When he did a rude thing.

Sara:

oh. When he made some kind of social indiscretion.

Lilly:

Indiscretion. Is that the word I was thinking of? Probably. He understood when social indiscretions were explained to him. But he had basically no insight or He had bad instincts. I think. And that does kind of change as the book goes on. And so, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I think the book is non specific either way., I don't know. I think it's an interesting option that I wanted to throw out there. That's all.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

I don't think it's clear.

Sara:

yeah, I, I think I, I tend to fall more on the side of he, you know, He just didn't have a lot of socialization up until this point, but I definitely see the argument for him being neurodivergent.

Lilly:

And I think it's, it's an argument for not a, there is proof and let me tell you here exactly.

Sara:

Yeah. I don't, I agree. I don't think it's conclusive either way.

Lilly:

Yeah. Oof. I did have a bad realization near the end of this book. Not bad. Revealing, uncomfortably self aware.

Sara:

Well, what was your revelation?

Lilly:

Did I like this book because there was so much romance in it? Am I that straightforward?

Sara:

I mean,

Lilly:

Maybe.

Sara:

I want to say that, that I liked this book a lot and I'm definitely not a romance person, so it's not necessarily, the romance that made you like this book, but we are two very different readers. So,

Lilly:

I also think that even if it wasn't the romance specifically why I liked this book, although it would probably be enough, the fact that there were three thoughtful relationships means that we got a lot more character development on both sides of the relationship, if you know what I'm saying.

Sara:

I'm gonna argue with one of them about being romantic, but

Lilly:

Really? Okay,

Sara:

because I think that's inconclusive but I'm not gonna argue about it now.

Lilly:

fascinating. Well, there's definitely Romeo and Juliet vibes to this story.

Sara:

Yes, I mean, it is maybe a very minor spoiler to say that there's a Romeo and Juliet plotline between Trav and Juliet. But it comes up pretty early and it doesn't make or break the book, so I don't think that's a huge spoiler.

Lilly:

Even calling it a plot line feels too strong. Fans of rival football teams, I know sports words.

Sara:

They're, they're also due to plot in slightly different socioeconomic classes. Not at the beginning,

Lilly:

Oh, yeah,

Sara:

but like As things progress.

Lilly:

fair enough. There were a couple of moments in this book that I feel like were Pratchett saying, Hey guys, I tried to say this earlier and you got it wrong. I guess I will just spell it out for you then. And it was very blunt in a way that I would generally complain about. Except. I mean, we've talked a little bit about the meta conversation around Discworld and how some people seem to think they're not inclusive. And while we have had some issues with representation in earlier books, I think that was definitely a blunder and not a conscious choice.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, there, there have been transphobes trying to argue that Pratchett was, like, not necessarily, or, that we don't know that Pratchett would have supported trans people. And I, it's, it's quite clear that, Yes, he supported trans people. And in this book I think he's like, yeah.

Lilly:

Okay, I have to put it on the page then? Guess I will. So we get sort of a more in depth, more particular conversation around dwarves and how You know, they choose their pronouns, and some dwarves are female presenting, and some dwarves are male presenting, and that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether or not they have beards, except they all have beards, so that was a bad metaphor on my part. And he also just comes out, and it's very funny, it's from Ridcully, the arch chancellor of the Unseen University, and I don't remember what side character is being discussed. Oh, it was the, the guy who's really good at football.

Sara:

Macarena is, is there I think Ponder Stibbins were talking about like the number of papers that he's been in or, or written or something academic papers. And Ponder mentions that he was also mentioned in divorce papers Ponder is saying that he, Like had an affair with a married woman and Ridkely takes what Ponder says because Ponder's not very clear to mean that He had an affair with the husband.

Lilly:

Oh. I actually don't think, that's not how I read that at all.

Sara:

Oh, how did how did you read that?

Lilly:

That he had an affair with the husband, and Ponders was too embarrassed to explain it all the way, and then Ridcully got there eventually.

Sara:

Oh, I didn't read that. I

Lilly:

as I heard it, because he had an affair with the husband, not with the wife.

Sara:

Oh yeah. Maybe I, maybe I misread it.

Lilly:

To ponder's relief, light dawned on Red Cullory's face. I think is what means,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Ponder was too shy to say like, yeah,

Sara:

had an affair with the husband. Yeah,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

yeah, yeah. Okay. You are correct. I misread that.

Lilly:

You mean he was like Professor Hayden. We used to have a word for him. Ponder braced himself. Anyway, it was silly. There was not actually a slur involved. Ponder was just like, Oh God, what is my boss about to say? I think we've all been there. But yeah, I think maybe First confirmed queer character?

Sara:

What does Google tell us? Google says that toker and lofty

Lilly:

Oh, duh. Yeah, of

Sara:

monstrous regiment. Yeah.

Lilly:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I can't believe I forgot about them.

Sara:

Yeah. And obviously Pepe in this book

Lilly:

Well now I have a spoiler question Wait

Sara:

apparently in a public interview at the Wheeler Center in Melbourne in 2014. PR described Pepe as being as gay as a tree full of monkeys. And then, yeah, Macarena.

Lilly:

well, I clearly misread Pepe then. All right

Sara:

But I you're right in that we've not had a whole lot of very explicitly queer characters up until this book.

Lilly:

Well, I'm ashamed that I forgot Tonka and Loofty, but that was monstrous regiment, which is in a realm of its own.

Sara:

Wikipedia would have you believe that it's part of the industrial revolution, just like this one.

Lilly:

Unacceptable. Anyway, that whole conversation felt more like it was Harry Pratchett going, stop it, you guys.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

More than it actually mattered to anything, in this book specifically. So you have a comment that is mystifying to me. Did we have a conversation about this that I forgot?

Sara:

we, we did. So my, my comment is that I guess we now have an answer for the chicken or awk jokes in Thud. Because you had added a comment in that episode that they were just kind of random and not funny and you didn't get them. I was like, yeah, they seem kind of random and and unfunny and that's, you know, whatever. And Dr. Cat Day on Blue Sky who we did a discussion of Night Watch with this year mentioned that. It comes up a little bit more in Unseen Academicals. And lo and behold, yes, there are characters that are described as chicken like and go awk. And it is talked about here in this book. But that's also a little bit spoiler y, so.

Lilly:

I don't know if that explains their presence in Thud.

Sara:

I don't know if it is. It necessarily explains their presence, but it explains them.

Lilly:

Okay, sure. Alright, I'm done with that.

Sara:

It makes it slightly less random, anyway,

Lilly:

Okay. Well, we do somehow have some spoiler topics to have. Still. I

Sara:

this very long conversation we've already had.

Lilly:

know. I, don't usually talk this much when we agree.

Sara:

true.

Lilly:

before we wrap up, when should you read this book? Dude, fucking start here. This would be a great place.

Sara:

Yeah, we did kind of cover this already, I feel. You could start here. You don't necessarily need to know a lot about Discworld to enjoy what's going on. If you are a big fan of football, this is a great place to start. It's great.

Lilly:

Even if you're not a great fan of football, but you can tolerate conversation around it.

Sara:

if you like sports, if you're a sport person.

Lilly:

No, I mean, even like, because we're not, we liked it.

Sara:

Right, but I'm saying if you're a sport person it's a good place to start.

Lilly:

Yes, and I'm saying even if you're not a sports person.

Sara:

Well sure, that's not saying you can't start here if you don't like sports. I'm just saying this is a good place to start if you like sports.

Lilly:

okay, okay. I also think, I mean, it's a good book about, God, how do I? The problem with the non sports themes is that they feel like spoilers to talk about.

Sara:

If you want really satisfying character arcs if you like romance subplots If you want wizardly shenanigans, this is a fine place to start.

Lilly:

If. You love sweet little goblin dudes who ain't never did nothing wrong.

Sara:

I mean, genuinely, genuinely, he's never done anything wrong in his life.

Lilly:

Yeah, like all goblins. Oh, poor nut.

Sara:

Not deserves better.

Lilly:

I, he gets there.

Sara:

Yeah, but he still deserves better. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

That's us. We really appreciate our patrons because otherwise We fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So, which romance did you not think was good?

Sara:

It's not that I didn't think it was good, it's just I don't know if I would necessarily call it a romance but I will admit to maybe being very biased and that's the relationship between Vetinari and Margolata.

Lilly:

What?

Sara:

I'm not a huge fan of hers because of how she treats Nut.

Lilly:

That's fine and fair, but that doesn't make Vetinari not in a relationship with her.

Sara:

I, I think they're just friends. Let, let men and women just be friends, 2014. Not 2014, 2024.

Lilly:

Whoa

Sara:

but also, I, I will admit to having a Mad crush on Vetnari, and so maybe I just don't like seeing him in a relationship with someone who's not me. I don't know.

Lilly:

fascinating.

Sara:

All of those things can be true at once. I, but, I, like, I feel like she's not that nice of a person.

Lilly:

No, she's not. Neither is Vetinari. They're a great match.

Sara:

Vetnari's nicer. Like,

Lilly:

We

Sara:

Vetinari, Vetinari at least cares enough for the people in his city to meet with them randomly when they bribe his staff with food goods. And Margolotta would never. I mean, she basically says as much.

Lilly:

Okay, so the instance that you're talking about is because Vetinari had nostalgia for Glenda's grandmother who was the cook at the assassin school when Vetinari attended there. So he would not do that for any random person,

Sara:

Maybe not. I mean, he, he does have context for her. It's true.

Lilly:

But also, we just see Vetinari interacting with people who have a little bit of power to push back against him. I'm sure he is just as shitty as Margolata to a bunch of people we never see on the page.

Sara:

Maybe. But we don't see it on the page, so it doesn't happen.

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

Look, I'm, I'm completely willing to admit my, my huge bias.

Lilly:

And I mean, yeah, to be fair, all of that can be true, and also they could still be in a relationship.

Sara:

Yeah, but, but I just, I mean, I, I do think that, that let men and women be friends on the page. It doesn't always have to be a romantic relationship.

Lilly:

It's not confirmed on the page that they're together, it's true. But there are other friendships between men and women in this book. So if we're just looking at this novel specifically, This is not the only friendship we have to say like, No, no, they can be friends. Because we have

Sara:

that's true. There,

Lilly:

Trevor.

Sara:

there, there is Glenda and Trev, but Trev definitely has hit on Glenda and, like, tried to make it a romantic relationship.

Lilly:

That doesn't make them not friends now.

Sara:

They are friends now.

Lilly:

And Nut and Juliet.

Sara:

Do not and Juliet ever interact?

Lilly:

They absolutely do. When Nut is going through his, like, big breakdown, I think Juliet is the one who is like, Everyone turn around, we're gonna go help him. What the fuck are you doing?

Sara:

Okay, I don't, I don't consider them friends because I didn't think they interacted enough, but you have a point there.

Lilly:

Oh, and when Glenda says, Trev, go take Juliet away from the sports game because people are gonna start murdering each other, Juliet says, No, we're here to support Nut.

Sara:

That's true. That's true.

Lilly:

Was she also there to look glamorous and be fancy? Yes. But I think she was genuine when she said no, she wants to stay to support Nut.

Sara:

I, I mean, I, I think Juliet is a very genuine person. But I still think that we should let Veterinarian Margolata just be friends.

Lilly:

Were they roommates, Sarah?

Sara:

No, they're, no, they're not roommates.

Lilly:

Okay, well, regardless, we have several well developed female characters in this book. Can we agree on that, at

Sara:

Yes, we, we can. I, I think, I don't like Margolata as a person. I think she's a well developed character. I like the other romances that we're about to talk about and I think that there are a lot of great female characters in this book.

Lilly:

Well, part of me wonders if I like this book because of the well developed romances, or if I like this book because In order to have a well developed romance, you have to have a reasonable love interest, and therefore that means there's actually good female characters. Although, I would say Glenda is a main character, so no. Oh my gosh, so much bleeping, I'm sorry.

Sara:

what, what do you mean, what do you mean no? She has a romance.

Lilly:

Yes, but she's not only a well developed character in order to provide a romantic interest for somebody.

Sara:

yes, that's, that's very true. And I think that actually Glenda's character arc is one of my favorite arcs in this book. Because she goes through so much development, and I think a lot of introspection where she realizes that she's just perpetuating the same mindset that her parents had, or her mother had, that has left her stagnant And she doesn't want to do that to Juliet, who isn't her child. Juliet's just her friend, but she's been mothering her this entire book. And so her realizing that she should let Juliet follow her dreams and support her in following her dreams is really satisfying.

Lilly:

That was amazing for Glenda, but also for Juliet. I mean, at the first half of the book, she is just a complete airhead. Like, she's stunning and everyone's in love with her when they see her. Whatever. And it's pretty, like, exhausting as a reader. Until, I mean, it's all through Glenda's perspective. But she starts to realize that Juliette is actually a whole ass person. And maybe she's being repressed and is not actually as airheaded as she seems. And I think the book kind of supports that with where she goes.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, like, I think that Juliet is still, even at the end of the book, she's not a incredibly, like, well read, cerebral person, yes. But in the areas that interest her, Like, Dwarven Chainmail, she knows a lot and so the fact that she's not traditionally smart in the way that Glenda defines it doesn't necessarily mean that her brain is empty.

Lilly:

And I think this book has a lot of conversation around the concept of worth, especially because that's kind of how Nut was raised. We learn that he's not actually a goblin, he's an orc. He's still my sweet baby goblin who I will protect with my life. That hasn't changed. But he was raised by Lady Margolata fairly abusively, I think we can agree. That he must always be proving his worth, and so he's very concerned with, like, am I worthy? And he's always underselling himself, undervaluing himself, because, like, he won't accept money for a service he provides, because he doesn't want to get paid in cash, he just wants someone to tell him he's good.

Sara:

He's, he has really low self esteem.

Lilly:

Extreme issues. 100 percent instilled by Lady Margolata, although, to be fair, without her, I don't think he'd be better off, so,

Sara:

wouldn't say 100%, I'd say 95%.

Lilly:

yeah, okay.

Sara:

I will,

Lilly:

better self esteem, but also be dead without her.

Sara:

yes. Yes.

Lilly:

argue philosophy over which one's worse later.

Sara:

Either, either way, I think that Lady Margolata provides him with a lot of advantages, like a good education but she does him no favors.

Lilly:

But because of that framework, there is a lot of conversation around worth in this book, We also see that between Glenda and Juliet, where Glenda is saying like, Oh, well I help people, I feed people, right? She's a cook. But then the idea that Juliet could go off and, what is it, give people the dream? I think is what the phrase is in the book. Just be gorgeous and basically inspire people, right? And Just because that doesn't have immediate physical impact doesn't mean that does not also have worth. then, the book almost touches on this idea that maybe a person's value should not be determined by the work that they do, I don't think it quite gets there. Because there, there was like a very brief dialogue about like, oh, well, a blind person, like, but they can't do factory work. So are they really working? And it's like, well, they're doing the work that they can do. And I don't know, it brushes along that concept of Maybe humans have value beyond labor.

Sara:

It, it does its best, yeah, I don't know if it gets there fully. It does its best.

Lilly:

that's not what this book was about. I'm really glad that it addressed it. I mean, it didn't delve into it, but that's all I needed. Just acknowledge that that's a concept. And also the fact that it mean, through this book, Pratchett is saying that, like, Nut has been pretty fucked up. To think that he is only an acceptable being when he is doing labor for others is kind of getting at that concept from the backside, you know?

Sara:

Yeah. And, and I appreciate that this book is really clear that Nott's upbringing is fucked up,

Lilly:

Yes

Sara:

because it does make that clear and that's part of what Nott has to overcome as his character growth and character arc. And I feel like there have been some Discworld books where if Nott had been in them That would not have been evident.

Lilly:

probably. But along that same, like, through line, we also see, like I said, Glenda and Juliet, and they're relationship evolving, you know, Glenda being less condescending, seeing Juliet as a more, I hate to use the word worthy, but a more worthy person, despite the fact that she doesn't cook as good. And their developing relationship was so important to me. as a reader. when this book is introduced, or when this book introduces those characters, Glenda is the fat sidekick, and Juliet is the stunning main character, there's going to be a lot of slapstick humor, and there is a lot of commentary around size, but the two fat characters I think the book wants us to admire, overall,

Sara:

Who is, who would you say the second fat character is?

Lilly:

Madam, who I would have thought was Pepe's girlfriend, but apparently they're not actually together?

Sara:

No, I, I think that they are together.

Lilly:

Like, Pepe is bi, right? He's not gay.

Sara:

Do do do, what was I specifically reading? So, Pratchett. does describe Pepe as being as gay as a tree full of monkeys in that episode in Australia in that interview in Australia.

Lilly:

Any chance you got a year on that?

Sara:

2014. A public interview I have a link, too. A public interview at the Wheeler Center in Melbourne in 2014. Pfft.

Lilly:

was invented? Maybe?

Sara:

Maybe it's before it was More of, more of a thing in, in cultural consciousness.

Lilly:

Yes, that was the joke.

Sara:

This, this one, it's not even a Reddit, it is, it is Sci Fi Stack Exchange. This one commenter posits that Madame Charn, masculine even though she is a self declared female dwarf and that the pair both act like a stereotypical gay couple to drum up their fashion business. But that is not Pratchett's words. Those are the words of some random commenter.

Lilly:

I was always curious about, like, dwarves just get to declare when they use female pronouns. I love the idea that Madame Charne was perhaps born male, but decided if all these other dwarves get to be ladies, so do I.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, we don't, we don't need to know what's in Madame Charn's chain mail to know that she uses female pronouns.

Lilly:

And in that argument, then, I'm going to continue my assertion that Pepe's definitely bi. Because Madame Charne is a woman.

Sara:

I think, I think that's

Lilly:

as that idea would be irregardless. How many times am I gonna use that word today?

Sara:

You, you do seem to be enjoying using it. But that, that doesn't make, if, if Pepe is bi, that doesn't make Pepe any less queer.

Lilly:

Yeah, I, I mean, I was gonna say, This book doesn't actually make me think Pepe is interested in men at all. All we see is that he is in a relationship with Madame Charn, and whatever her dwarven situation is, is not the point. And he designs fashion, which is not actually a sexuality. So as far as, like, the evidence we see in this book, he is a man who's attracted to women.

Sara:

That's true.

Lilly:

So if Pratchett says, He's gayer than whatever the metaphor was, then that just makes him bi, right? I've

Sara:

Let me, hold on, let me it was around 1630. Does your tendency towards heroes and heroines who are a little more jaded, Does that reflect your own world view? I think it's the world's world view. One of my recent heroes was Pepe. The somewhat louche, um, designer of Chateau There's a name waiting for a misprint The Dwarf Fashion House. And he He is a vicious he, he's as, he's as gay as a tree full of bunkets. But knows how to flourish a really sharp stiletto when, when he wishes to.

Lilly:

figured it out. full of monkeys is not gay at all. So that's the joke, right? Clearly.

Sara:

I guess so.

Lilly:

I don't think that was maybe the intention, but that's how I'm choosing to interpret that. I mean, what's the alternative? Pepe is not attracted to women, and so was just, you know, gaming Madame Charne, but that feels pretty bad. And I don't think the book wants us to think that their relationship is fake,

Sara:

No, I don't, I don't think so at all.

Lilly:

Glenda feels great sympathy for them and, like, really likes the fact that they're, you know, the two of them against the world or whatever. That's part of her romance novel soft spot, which I might also have. Oh,

Sara:

You're not Glenda because you're not that condescending towards your friends.

Lilly:

I like that. Thank you.

Sara:

I mean Glenda does grow out of it, that's her character arc, but

Lilly:

She does grow out of it. I did have a similar character arc, not for the friend thing, but with kind of coming to grips with the fact that romance novels aren't real. Although mine was more with fanfiction than romance novels, but

Sara:

same thing.

Lilly:

a whole thing. And then also I went through it much earlier than she did, so, you know. Anyway I see a lot of myself in this book. This is a really good book.

Sara:

It is a good book. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. I would like to reread it. I'm glad that we reread it for the podcast because if we hadn't, honestly, I'm not sure when I would have read it.

Lilly:

You're welcome.

Sara:

Thank you for making me do this podcast.

Lilly:

We don't actually, or I don't actually have much to say about the friendship between Trevor and Nut, except that I love it.

Sara:

I enjoyed it. Yeah, I also don't have much to say about it. But it's, it's a nice, wholesome friendship. And I liked it.

Lilly:

I think it's another good example of the character arcs in this book. I don't think it starts off as wonderful as it is at the end, although they're always solid friends. go through some shit, so they end up tighter than they were before. That's normal.

Sara:

yeah, I mean, like, from the beginning, Trav doesn't care that Nut isn't a football fan. He doesn't care that Nut is a different race. Like, he just cares that he's a person that he gets along with.

Lilly:

Your final comment is baffling to me.

Sara:

So, we don't have to talk about this if you don't want to. But I do wonder because Glenda So, one of the, like, plots of this book is that Vetinari is trying to regulate football and in his attempt to do so, what he does is he gets all of the like captains, the team captains together and gets them to agree to this new set of rules, but he doesn't consider like appealing to the fans. And so Glenda thinks that he has made a big mistake and That basically it works out not because of Vetinari's maneuverings, but because of, like, Glenda and Trev and they save the day with their football more or less. And so I just kind of wonder, like, do you think that Vetinari made a mistake?

Lilly:

Hmm. I don't think he did. I think he knew that the wizard's ego would find a way to win, which is not specifically what happened, right? Because the winners were, I mean, Trev and Glenda and Juliet, who were not all wizards. They were all, you know, regular people who just happened to be on that side of the

Sara:

The wizard, the wizard team.

Lilly:

Yeah, but I think that that Nari was confident that the wizards, even if they themselves were blundering idiots. would find a way to win despite that aspect. knew they had Nut. He knew they had the Librarian. And those were the two, like, real clinchers. The fact that Trevor comes in and scores the winning goal is very dramatic, but he doesn't actually play the whole game. He does very little, actually.

Sara:

yeah, I think that I fall on that same side. Like, glenda definitely thinks that he's made a big mistake, but I think that he knows more about what's going on than she realizes, which is proven throughout the book because Vetinari always has a very clear idea of who people are and what's going on and that is shown on the page.

Lilly:

I was gonna argue, except he does constantly, whenever someone comes up to him to talk about football, he's like, oh yeah, you're this player on this team, who's a rival of this team, and they won this last game. So he clearly has done his research. But I also, now this just might be my assumptions that I'm bringing to the book, but I assume that Vetinari understands people at their core. And so the details don't matter as much.

Sara:

right, and I don't think that that disagrees with what I'm saying about him knowing what's going on.

Lilly:

No, no, no. That disagreed with the comment that I made earlier about how he knows all of those details about street football.

Sara:

Oh. I, I think it can

Lilly:

I contradicted myself.

Sara:

I think it can be a little bit of both, right? Like he's done his research because he's, he's trying to change this the street game that's very dangerous and killing a lot of people in his city. But he also does understand people. And so he uses both of those things.

Lilly:

And he knows he needs to be able to talk to people about the minutiae in order to get them on his side.

Sara:

Yeah, and I think that you're right when you say that he knew maybe not how things would play out, but, but that things would play out the way that they would. So, yeah, I, I think I agree with you that he didn't make a mistake, but I just thought it was worth looking at. discussing because Glenda very clearly does think that he has made a mistake.

Lilly:

That was a weird scene. I, I thought that that was sort of, I don't know, I guess it was just put in there to show how self assured she had become. Which is a good thing,

Sara:

Well, she also, she also doesn't actually think that highly of him.

Lilly:

Well yeah, but like, more from the angle that this woman has decided that like, Hey, I think he didn't think of something. So I'm just gonna Marsh up to the castle And say hey, you have to listen to me right now because you fucked up because she was wrong Isn't really the point of that scene The point of that scene is that she has the self confidence to do that, I think, carries it a lot farther.

Sara:

Yeah, I, I didn't think that, that, her thought that he was wrong was the point of it.

Lilly:

No, no, no.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

That is if he was not wrong, then like, why even include that, right? And so I think that scene sort of ends up more as a character building moment for her than it does a Vetinari,

Sara:

Yes, I, I agree with that for sure.

Lilly:

but very good all around.

Sara:

It's a good book. I don't know what 19 year old Sarah was thinking.

Lilly:

You're telling me that you were wrong?

Sara:

No, I'm, I'm never wrong. Don't listen to any of our episodes where I am absolutely wrong.

Lilly:

Well, that'll be easy because those don't exist. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, BlueSky, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. If you didn't like the episode, please don't. Also, follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!