Fiction Fans

City of Spores by Austin Shirey

• Episode 154

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Your hosts discuss City of Spores by Austin Shirey. They talk about detective/noir tropes and avoiding common pitfalls, as well as subtle worldbuilding in novellas. Mushrooms do come up once or twice.


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily,

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

And tonight we'll be discussing City of Spores by Austin Shirey. But first, what's something great that happened recently? Wonderful.

Sara:

something great that happened recently. I had friends come and visit. It was lovely. We went to a baseball game, we did karaoke I drank lots, and it was just a nice time all around,

Lilly:

I'm glad you had a good time.

Sara:

yeah.

Lilly:

Did you sing the Wheel of Time theme song for karaoke?

Sara:

Yes, we did sing the Wheel of Time theme song for karaoke. No, we did not sing the Wheel of Time theme song. To, to clarify for listeners, these were all people involved, or 99 percent of them were people involved in what I affectionately call the Wheel of Time cult that I'm in. Hence the question about the theme song.

Lilly:

Yes, it was on subject, I promise. What have I done since we last recorded?

Sara:

Well, if you're having a hard time with this episode, you're gonna have a harder time with the next episode we record,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

because that episode is also being recorded tonight, dear listener.

Lilly:

Yeah. I didn't think this through, really.

Sara:

Do we ever?

Lilly:

No. I think my good thing is going to be that I finished all of our reading for today, like, early this afternoon. I wasn't rushing at all. It was fantastic.

Sara:

Still late.

Lilly:

Well, yeah, we push it back a day. But

Sara:

But it is, it is nice to finish with plenty of time for that day's recording.

Lilly:

I didn't have to speed read. I was able to, like, truly engage with both of the texts. It was good. It was a good day. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara:

I am drinking A cocktail of tonic water, lemon juice, and what I think is leftover cranberry liqueur that I made in December. And I say I think, because I did not label the jar, because of course I assumed I would know what it was forever. and December was a long time ago. I think this is the leftover cranberry liqueur that I made, but I'm not actually sure.

Lilly:

Well, is it good at least?

Sara:

Oh yeah, tastes, tastes lovely. Hahaha

Lilly:

It's called Alive Ancient Mushroom Elixir, which felt right for this recording. The flavor is matcha cream soda. Subtitle, energy, clarity, mood. Also, the side of the bottle says, Awaken your mind and body. Anyway, I thought all of that was just like, mumbo jumbo, aren't mushrooms amazing? No, it turns out there's 75mg of caffeine in this. So, I probably will not actually be drinking this for very long because it's night time.

Sara:

Yeah, you don't necessarily want to be drinking a lot of caffeine, although, maybe it'll help with the amount of recording we have to do tonight.

Lilly:

Yeah, I do have to go to bed after that recording though. I

Sara:

Details, details.

Lilly:

One more sip. I really don't drink caffeine at 7. 30 at night, usually. So I guess it's on to red wine instead. But, that was my actual thing. I was so ready, I was so excited, and then the caffeine foiled me.

Sara:

Well, I mean, we can just say you did.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm gonna do. Have you read anything good lately that was not for the podcast?

Sara:

I did. So Jen Donahue sent us over a very early copy of the next Run with the Hunted novella, which is coming out in October. I don't think she has pre orders up yet. Maybe she has pre orders up, but either way, it's coming out in October. And so I read that. It was a lot of fun. It is nominally about a casino heist, but it's actually about character relationships. It's excellent.

Lilly:

very exciting. we have, I think, more of that series on our list at some point, don't we? We've talked about it anyway.

Sara:

We've talked about it. Yeah,

Lilly:

well, I have not read anything that was not explicitly assigned to me by this podcast. So let's talk about City of Spores.

Sara:

Yes. So City of Spores is similar to Mushroom Blues. We're not gonna spend this entire podcast comparing it to Mushroom Blues, but it's similar to Mushroom Blues. It is what I would call fungal noir. You know, there's a hard boiled main character, private detective although in Mushroom Blues it's a cop. She's a cop. Lots of mushrooms kind of run down city. Very similar vibes.

Lilly:

However, it's not fair to either book that we read these so close together.

Sara:

It really is not. Mm

Lilly:

that statement that's, that's it. That's done. We're not gonna do that for another hour. Although it is interesting. What is it about mushrooms? I feel like You know how bacon was really popular back in, like, 2010? Just as a meme.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

I feel like we're there with mushrooms.

Sara:

I think we are. There's kind of been, and I feel like we might have talked about this earlier in one of our earlier episodes, but I feel like there has been some kind of like cultural mushroom zeitgeist with lots of mushrooms happening in big franchises, and not so big franchises.

Lilly:

I do wonder if The Last of Us kind of kicked that off. I mean, I know you're not as familiar with it. I haven't actually played the video game. But I know of it. And I know it was a very big deal. The second one came out not too long ago, I mean, a couple of years ago, I think. And then, of course, the TV show came out more recently. And I feel like that has sort of galvanized the whole thing. I'm

Sara:

yeah, I know nothing about The Last of Us. I've not played the games. I've not watched the TV show. So you could, you can tell me that it started the whole thing and I have to believe you at your word. But

Lilly:

just going by timelines. I don't, I don't know if it's actually the source of the interest.

Sara:

I, I think that it certainly is, I mean that the show was quite popular, is quite popular. So it would make sense that it Is the precursor to the interest.

Lilly:

I don't think, and now I am talking entirely out of my ass here.

Sara:

That's what this whole podcast is.

Lilly:

No, sometimes I have good points. Sometimes I'm just making shit up. But I don't get the feeling that The Last of Us created this fascination with mushrooms. I think that there was quite a bit of it just, like, happening in internet culture. And then having this very popular game be turned into a very popular TV show. Sort of gave it a spark, you know?

Sara:

Paved the way, in a sense.

Lilly:

I think the way was paved, and then The Last of Us like, set the fire ablaze, which is a very terrible mixed metaphor.

Sara:

I mean, you're right, people have always been interested in mushrooms. Just

Lilly:

documentaries coming out on Netflix recently, like, it's, people have been interested, but I think it really got, like, pushed to the forefront.

Sara:

Mhm.

Lilly:

Anyway I like it. Of course, I liked mushrooms before they were cool.

Sara:

Obviously. Okay.

Lilly:

I'm enough of a basic bitch, I don't need help. But for City of Spores specifically, one of the first things I was really struck by was the really fun, kind of subtle world building that we got throughout this. Is this officially a novella?

Sara:

I believe it is a novella.

Lilly:

Okay, I know it was a very quick read and I,

Sara:

34, 500 words, basically.

Lilly:

so that isn't exactly a novella, pretty

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

there was a moment, I don't remember the exact name, but there was some person who said their name was Vox something something, and their name translated to the voice of something something in some obscure forgotten language, which was just, like, such a really nice way of saying, hey, yes, this is somehow related to the world that you know, but it's so far removed that, like, don't assign your cultural presumptions to it. I don't know, I just thought that was a very, like, elegant way of doing that.

Sara:

Yeah, I liked it. I mean, a lot of the worldbuilding I liked, not because I particularly cared that it was, you know, That this world was somehow related to ours because that wasn't relevant to the plot at all. But I liked the way the world building dropped little details about the society and the culture and the characters and their beliefs.

Lilly:

Yeah, that was a way of telling us that it was. was related to our world without trying to be like, Oh, and then also the lost

Sara:

city of San Francisco.

Lilly:

yeah. Why was I trying to Ruins was the word I was looking for.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, it was, it was very subtly done.

Lilly:

Yeah. And also, holy shit, the place name slapped. There was the Gutter Snipe Pub on Motgill Avenue. And then another one that I had to comment on was Bristle Stem Avenue. Like, all of the street names all of the like, store names and restaurants and stuff. Fucking incredible. I did not make a note for every single one. Like, I'm not going to read you a list of place names now, but trust me, they're very good.

Sara:

The place names are excellent. I mean, overall, this, this book was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it.

Lilly:

Stressful at moments, but very much fun.

Sara:

It was stressful, but not stressful in a way that made me want to put it down. Because there are definitely books that give me anxiety, and this was not one of them. You know?

Lilly:

Yeah, oh I absolutely know. And I think some of that is because it's playing with the noir genre, it gets to dabble with danger in a way that is sort of expected. And because we have that expectation, it doesn't make it alarming or scary or surprising. It's like, yeah, there is danger. This is a detective noir novel.

Sara:

mhm. Yeah. I really enjoyed the way that it does play with tropes with the noir tropes. But I also think that it manages to avoid a lot of the, like, character pitfalls that I don't like about noir.

Lilly:

Hmm, I remember when we were talking about the Dresden Files, there were a lot of times where we were like, Ugh, this thing really sucked, but I think he did it on purpose because of the genre, so can we really complain about it?

Sara:

Yeah, like, all of the women have agency. Like, they're not just there as props. Yes, the bad guys are quite bad, but it, not in a way that doesn't work. I don't know if that's making sense. But,

Lilly:

it is. I mean, there are elements of this book that are horrifying, but they're all bad things in the book, if that makes sense. And we have strayed so far into spoiler territory. Really, who we should talk about is Z, who is one of my favorite characters. She was incredible.

Sara:

Z was lovely. I really liked Z.

Lilly:

She was Joanna, the main character's best friend. She also owned a cabaret and was maybe a madam for some sex workers? It wasn't totally clear.

Sara:

I'd say it was implied.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

It wasn't, like, outright stated, but I'd say it was implied.

Lilly:

And so we visit this cabaret over the course of the novel and just the vibe of that place was so very non aggressive. Like, they're practicing their dance routine they wave hello to Joanna the main character

Sara:

The women there seemed happy.

Lilly:

yeah! And at no point does the main character or any of the other characters in this book are like, ah, stupid whores or anything like that.

Sara:

There's no sex shaming.

Lilly:

yeah,

Sara:

Which is a little surprising in a noir novel, to be honest.

Lilly:

that's true. There was definitely I think the themes that this book was tackling, well I mean, it was obviously fascism and classism. And I think this book did a really good job of focusing on those being the bad guys.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

And, well, yes, I agree. You know, there are a lot of things associated with both of those, including sexism. Shirey didn't sort of blur the lines of what he was talking about in this book. He was like, no, no classism, bad. I'm not gonna get bogged down with any of the other very bad things that exist. In this world they don't, because it's a different world. And yes, it might be, like, descended from the world we know, but it's different enough that if he had brought in any of those other things, it would have been a choice.

Sara:

Yeah. And I think that he made the right decision, especially considering that it is novella, like, there's only so much page time to devote to the novel. the themes of the book and so if you really want to have a strong, like, storyline and strong messaging, you do have to leave some of that by the wayside.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And, like you said, because the space is so limited, by focusing his concept and themes, he's able to keep it, like, really strong, instead of getting distracted by, you know, of the other shit that's going on that could have been brought in and then just been like a unfocused mess.

Sara:

it's not diluted.

Lilly:

Yeah, at all. He also has the opportunity to play around with some of the really cheesy detective tropes, like noir tropes, because he has the main character call them out when they happen, which is such a small thing, but it goes such a long way. Like at one point there's a, a shady group of people talking with the main character, that's all I'm gonna say. Because it's very much a scene important late in the book. You'll just have to read it to find out. And the people that Joanna is talking with at one point they finish each other's sentences in a very like, dramatic, cinematic, the music would have been swelling at that moment. And then the main character says something like, Huh, cute. Which makes it totally perfect. Like, you can get away with so much stuff if you just have someone in world call it out.

Sara:

Yeah, that really does make a huge difference having someone in the context of the novel acknowledge the trope just in some respect.

Lilly:

I was a little confused. And this didn't really matter for the plot of the novel. But, we're dealing with Oh, what is the name of the city we're dealing with? It starts with an

Sara:

Madripole, I think.

Lilly:

Mmm, that sounds right.

Sara:

Madripole.

Lilly:

Well,

Sara:

of Artists and Mad Men's City of Mushrooms.

Lilly:

We learn quite a bit about Madripool and how it was founded and sort of what its deal has been over the years. I wasn't really clear on what that time frame was like. I mean, was the founding of Madripool a hundred years ago? Was it a thousand years ago? We know that the powerful founding family at one point kind of adapted their last name to sound more local.

Sara:

I mean, I got the impression that it was quite a long time ago. Like, more than a hundred years. I don't know if we're ever given a strict timeline.

Lilly:

No, we're not. but I was just like curious, like, do people's grandparents remember

Sara:

I don't, I don't think

Lilly:

from when they were a little kid, or are we talking like thousands of years?

Sara:

I think we're talking thousands of years because of spoilery things that I don't want to get into.

Lilly:

Okay, I didn't realize that would be a spoiler conversation. I just thought there was no hints at all, and it was like, and it's vague, and it's fine, it doesn't really matter, but that was something I was trying to figure out while I was reading.

Sara:

Yeah, I always had a very clear thought in my head that it was quite ancient history. Now you're making me second guess that, but When I was reading, I definitely thought that it was not as recent as people's grandparents remembered it. And I think that's borne out in the text for reasons that we can talk about later.

Lilly:

There's definitely multiple generations, but multiple generations can be 100 years, or it could be 10, 000 years, you know? Like it's, anyway, it's fine. I did have, One comment that I made, that when I was writing up notes, I was like, Ooh, phrasing! Which

Sara:

that in our notes.

Lilly:

yeah, LOL police brutality is a choice that I made. I

Sara:

I mean, relevant, relevant to the plot, but

Lilly:

think, yeah, obviously the LOL was shorthand for, I see what you're doing there, and I want to highlight this to talk about it later, and so I need to put a note in somehow. LOL police brutality was not it.

Sara:

What was, can you say what the scene was?

Lilly:

When the main character was being police brutalized. The first time.

Sara:

Okay.

Lilly:

Yeah. The city of Spores, Madripole, very corrupt. I don't think that's a spoiler.

Sara:

That's not a spoiler.

Lilly:

That's the basic concept of the book. I did like, though, okay, for as much violence as was in this book. There was no sexual assault, but it also didn't try to pretend like that didn't exist. Which would have felt, given how gritty the city is in so many other ways, trying to wave that off as like, Nah, we're just not gonna acknowledge that that's a thing. I think would have felt weird.

Sara:

Mm hmm. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I really liked that it was, the way that it was handled, right? Like, it's acknowledged, but you don't ever see it happen on screen. And it It's acknowledged not in a way where you're like, told about it happening, like, that it's happened, right? There's,

Lilly:

we can, I think we can dance around it. At one point, one of the cops who has been very violent, needs to reach into Joanna's pocket, like, jacket, inside jacket pocket to get something, and she describes it how, like, he pulls her jacket far away from her body so that, like, his hand is nowhere near her while he's reaching in into the inside pocket, and how something a lot, like, she still hated him but appreciated the gesture kind of thing,

Sara:

mm hmm.

Lilly:

and it was just a very, like, yeah, there are, like, It's a world where that exists. So it was like, in her mind. But also, the book was at the same time going, We're not doing that. I

Sara:

Well, and I get so tired of books that use sexual assault as a shorthand for character, like, development. So it's really refreshing to see a book that doesn't do that.

Lilly:

mean, even more than that, it's a serious enough topic that if you're going to bring it up, you ought to be prepared to actually deal with it.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

Okay, clearly we can't stop ourselves from delving into spoilers. So, before we go too much farther, who should read this book?

Sara:

You should read this book if you like mushrooms, if you want to read about journalism as a defense against fascism and a critique of classism if you enjoy smart goons, because there are a couple of smart goons in this if you want a short novella. With all of those things, you should read this book.

Lilly:

Yeah, a novella that somehow has all of those things and doesn't, like, shaft any of the aspects of it. I do love me a smart goon, though. This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans.

Sara:

That's us! We really appreciate all of our patrons on Patreon, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Lilly:

Patrons can find weekly bonus content, monthly exclusive episodes, and they have free access to our biannual zine, Solstitia.

Sara:

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com forward slash fiction fans pod. Thank you for all of your support!

Lilly:

Do backslashes even exist in URLs?

Sara:

Maybe not?

Lilly:

I didn't think they did.

Sara:

I think, I mean, it's not uncommon to say forward slash whatever.

Lilly:

Yeah, people on the radio who are ancient, maybe.

Sara:

I can be an ancient person on the radio.

Lilly:

I think you do coding. That's what that makes me think. I

Sara:

I mean, you're not wrong.

Lilly:

don't think anyone hears a URL and goes, But which direction does the slash go?

Sara:

Maybe someone who's 80.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Sara:

Before we forget, because if we continue on I know us, we will forget. The reason why I think that the city was founded closer to the thousand years ago side of things than the hundred years scheme of things is the way they talk about the book about the founding.

Lilly:

Ah, good point. They do kind of mention it as like, They say historians view it as almost a religious text.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And also, the author's name has a very like, classical scholar name.

Sara:

Mm hmm.

Lilly:

Which,

Sara:

It's definitely like a historical document, you know, quasi religious. it gives the sense that it's ancient history.

Lilly:

yeah. Okay. I think that's fair. It's still unclear, but I agree that it feels like it was a long time and not just like

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

great great granddad,

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're right that it's, there's no specific dates given, but

Lilly:

That was just something I was preoccupied by while I was reading it.

Sara:

That was my argument. I wanted to give it before we forgot and moved on.

Lilly:

It's a good one. So another thing that preoccupied me while I was reading this book is that I was so worried that Skip, Joanna's journalist friend, or Z, were going to portray her at some point. They were just set up as too good of friends, and I was like, alright, this is a gritty noir novel, there's no way these people are actually loyal and supportive.

Sara:

But it was not that gritty. They were that loyal and supportive. Yeah, I was, a little concerned that one or both of them was also, was going to betray her, just because I feel like that's. Kind of the trend. Everything that can go wrong will go wrong.

Lilly:

I mean, even in her backstory, right? Like, she is a private detective because when she was a journalist, she was going to expose what are those rich bitches named? Starts with an M. Everything in this book starts with an M. That's not true. But the two things that I forgot do.

Sara:

She was going to expose the powerful family for, you know, being incredibly corrupt and, abusing their power. And,

Lilly:

she sent her newspaper, the main newspaper, refused to publish it, which is how she realized they were owned by that same family. So she sends it to an independent press. And that somehow got tampered with, came out like, making her look like an idiot, and so she was like, exiled, or, not. Exiled. But she left in disgrace before coming back. And so when we meet one of the journalists who work at that independent newspaper, I was like, Oh no, was it him?

Sara:

no, but he works at a different independent newspaper.

Lilly:

The independent one that she tried to send it to, that did print it, but she said the package had gotten

Sara:

weren't they, weren't

Lilly:

so the article, was that a different one still?

Sara:

Because, because she was in an, in an entirely different city and he works at the Madripole Voice.

Lilly:

she left for the entirely different city after that happened.

Sara:

Right, but I'm saying Skip works at the Madripole Voice. Which is not where she was,

Lilly:

No, she was in Madripool when she wrote that article.

Sara:

I don't think so.

Lilly:

I'm pretty sure.

Sara:

I thought it was a different a different city. Also, it's Mayring. Mayring is the family.

Lilly:

I knew it started with an M.

Sara:

Oh, maybe you're right. Maybe

Lilly:

Oh no, she did send it to an independent newspaper, the Umber Guardian.

Sara:

So we're, we're both right and we're both wrong. She was in

Lilly:

in Madripool when it

Sara:

she, she was in the same city but it was not the newspaper that Skip worked for

Lilly:

Okay, well, then I shouldn't have been worried about him betraying her ever.

Sara:

but I mean, she does have the betrayal from her former boss

Lilly:

True,

Sara:

she thought had her back. And then turned out not to. Heh heh.

Lilly:

And then Z was just too great. I thought for sure she was gonna turn out to be someone nefarious. But instead, oh my god, the hospital scene when Joanna brings The woman she had been hired to find finally finds her beaten within an inch of her life after Joanna had been beaten within an inch of her life. And so she like drags this unconscious woman to a hospital, and like all she can do is call Zee. And Zee comes and stays with them just to make sure nothing shitty happens, because the whole city's corrupt.

Sara:

Z was a good friend.

Lilly:

Oh I gotta say, also I ship it.

Sara:

Obviously. I mean, of course, how could you not?

Lilly:

There's some light smooching. I don't want to be like But they were roommates. But I wouldn't say there was, like, so much. So much smooching that they're definitely romantically interested. But I want them to be.

Sara:

I mean, my view of it is that if there is smooching, they're romantically interested unless it's made explicitly clear that they're not. And they're just smooching for the hell of it. And I do not think that this book says they are just smooching for the hell of it. So I think that there's romantic interest there.

Lilly:

No, I mean, not for the hell of it, but like, you're my very dear friend and almost died and now you are okay.

Sara:

I wouldn't smooch someone for that.

Lilly:

You would smooch someone for very few reasons.

Sara:

That's true.

Lilly:

I don't think it's likely that they are just platonic. But It's not really a make out scene. It's just a pic.

Sara:

It's not really a makeup scene. And, and there's, and there's not really romance in this novel at all.

Lilly:

No. We do know that Joanna is bi.

Sara:

We do.

Lilly:

That's it, though.

Sara:

She was formerly married.

Lilly:

To a man.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

And then said, like, eh. And that was, that was enough of that for me. She's clearly attracted to Z.

Sara:

Well, and Z's great, so who wouldn't be?

Lilly:

Also fair. One thing that this book does, That is a very bold move. Is that it does the, like, book within a book thing. And plot wise, it was very important. But the book itself takes up a small enough portion of the text that it was fine. But that's just, like, a lot to balance. And this novel, novella, is already quite short. So, I don't know. There's just something that makes me stop and think. When there's a book describing a book to me.

Sara:

Oh, I mean, I, I love a book within a book. So, that didn't give me pause at all.

Lilly:

No, not, not pause like, oh, I don't know if I like this. But it makes me stop and go, hey, I am reading a book right now. an author is currently describing to me how a fictional author wrote this fictional book. There's something there. I don't know, I think about it.

Sara:

I mean, I guess when you think about it, it's a little meta, but again, it's not something that makes me stop and think about it generally when it happens.

Lilly:

Really? Oh, I do.

Sara:

I'm just like, Ooh, more books. I like this.

Lilly:

have you ever, Well, actually, it's something else this book does. Get a, an excerpt of poetry that Joanna says is like her favorite poem and it's so, like, powerful. And then it quotes the poem and the, and Shirey describes at the end that he sort of loosely adapted an existing poem in the real world to fit the context of this world. But I have read before. books that say, and then it was the most amazing song in the world, and then the author writes the song, and it's like, oh buddy.

Sara:

See, that I think is a lot harder to do than a book within a book, because I think that poetry is just more difficult to do well in general, poetry or songs. Yeah. And so that can kind of take me out of a book sometimes. It didn't in this case, but,

Lilly:

right it also depends on if you see the text itself or not.

Sara:

right.

Lilly:

In this one, I think the book was called Mycelium, it's only ever described to us. We don't actually get any excerpts or anything of the prose itself.

Sara:

Right, but, like, it still doesn't take me out if we get excerpts of a book that book.

Lilly:

No, I just judge it. Like, The author is sharing this excerpt of this fictional book with you for a reason, right? And it's introduced in some way because it is so, you know, meaningful, or good, or bad, or important, or whatever. And so it's like, all right, show me what you got. What's this book that's so important?

Sara:

No,

Lilly:

set this up for me. We better live up to it,

Sara:

no, I like, I don't, yeah, I don't know, that's, that's not how I come at it. Unless they specifically give it a description in terms of good or bad, right? But if they're just like, this is a book that had an impact, then I don't judge it.

Lilly:

even if it fails to have that impact,

Sara:

Sure, because I'm not like, the character within that culture.

Lilly:

I guess.

Sara:

I'm, I'm also generally not getting the full text of the book.

Lilly:

Well, yeah, a whole book within a book would be a stunt.

Sara:

Yes, it would be. But whereas for poetry, I'm more likely to judge that because as I've said, I think poetry is harder to do well.

Lilly:

Well, that's true.

Sara:

But

Lilly:

I did really appreciate in the author's note, Shirey was just like, Yeah, I didn't try.

Sara:

yeah,

Lilly:

Know your

Sara:

you know,

Lilly:

Joanna has a whole speech. So, this city was built, where the mushrooms existed before and the founding family tried to annihilate the mushrooms and then have been trying to suppress the mushrooms and hide the fact that they have done this since then. And Joanna has a whole speech about how, yes, the system sucks, but because I don't have the power to change it, I am just going to try to exist within it, which Was a very well done speech, but also very disheartening? Sad? It's pessimistic,

Sara:

It's very pessimistic, yes.

Lilly:

And then the whole thing turns around, because when she does meet the mushroom people, or person, it's one entity, one multitude entity, because they're all connected, because they're mushrooms. And she's like, I Of course I'm going to help you, because you can actually like, change things. I'm not going to call that character growth, because it's the, she's the same character. But that change of heart was so meaningful.

Sara:

I mean, I think it felt very realistic, right? Like, she's not, you're right, it's not character growth, but it's a reason for change that, as a reader, I can understand.

Lilly:

Yeah, and especially because the secret society that she had been talking to were basically just like trying to put out their own like information pamphlets to convince people that the main family was shitty.

Sara:

Right.

Lilly:

And she's like, yeah, you're right. But this ain't gonna do shit.

Sara:

You're right, but this is ineffective.

Lilly:

Yeah. Why would I put my neck out for something that's gonna fail? Which is reasonable, but very sad. And so then seeing her find a cause, I guess it's the same cause, but find a movement that will actually make a difference. and for her to put herself behind that wholeheartedly was like, yes,

Sara:

I mean, I, I think it, it felt rewarding to the reader, because as the reader, you want to support the secret society. You know, you're, you're like, you guys are doing the right thing, you're, you're totally right the Mayring family are jerks, they need to be overthrown, but you understand Joanna when she says, I'm not gonna support you because this is an ineffective way of doing it, it's not gonna change. And then when she does find this group, the mushrooms who actually can affect that change, as a reader, you're getting your cake and eating it too.

Lilly:

yes. I especially loved with that secret society because she comes back to them and says like, hey, help me with the scheme. And they're also surprised and are like, what, what? You were against this earlier. And she was like, yeah, cause you're idiots. But all of her interactions with them felt so satisfying because they're such douchebags.

Sara:

They are kind of dicks.

Lilly:

they're awful! They kidnap her, they threaten to murder her until they find out that she's not working for the Meyrings. And then they're like, okay, so you're gonna help us, right? And she's like, no, fuck you guys. And they're very shocked. And it's like, yeah, you can't just be dicks, and then expect people to help you afterwards. That's not how it works.

Sara:

It's not, and like, you know, we still kind of like them more than the meyrings, but they're also still douchebags.

Lilly:

Oh, I love, like, I think that was so perfectly done, the way that I really didn't like them, but I liked that they still came to help.

Sara:

Mm

Lilly:

Well, I mean, they did need to see proof of. The sentient mushroom people, which is

Sara:

that's valid.

Lilly:

Yeah. Everyone in this book acts very reasonably, like, no one does stupid shit just for the drama.

Sara:

I was going to say. Except for the villains, but then you qualified your statement with no one doing stupid shit for the drama. So I can't say that except for the villains, because they don't do stupid shit for the drama. They just do stupid shit.

Lilly:

They, they're not reasonable. I guess logical, maybe?

Sara:

I think everyone,

Lilly:

They're wrong, but they are rationally wrong.

Sara:

Everyone in this book acts understandably.

Lilly:

Yeah, well even that is like, it's understandable how they want to murder everybody. No, that's not what we mean, obviously. Oh my god, they were so awful.

Sara:

They were. I mean, I will say that I didn't think they were particularly nuanced villains, which is fine. I don't always need nuance in my villains.

Lilly:

I think we got enough nuance in the good guys that I didn't mind them being just fully out and out evil.

Sara:

well also, as we've said before, it was a novella. There's not a lot of page time for the villains to develop. If they had been. this cartoonishly evil for a 600 page book, I might feel slightly differently.

Lilly:

I don't know, I think there is something to, especially in a story like this, I That's talking about what you have to do to fix a broken system that is broken on this, huge scale and built on the concepts of, you know, colonialism and fascism and all of the bad isms. None of the good guys are all good. And they have to navigate that. And so having the bad guys be just completely bad is like, yeah, yes. It's a bunch of okay people saying, but we're all better than them.

Sara:

see, I'm not saying that I need the villains to be morally gray in, in this hypothetical larger novel. I'm just saying that They can still be way more evil than the main characters, than the good guys. I just would maybe want a little more nuance in a longer book.

Lilly:

I mean, yeah, you're right. But especially when they get defeated so soundly as they do at the end of this book,

Sara:

I mean it,

Lilly:

feels good. Sometimes you just want to win.

Sara:

it definitely works for this novel. This is not necessarily me saying this was bad and I wanted something different.

Lilly:

It was just noticeable.

Sara:

It was just noticeable, yeah.

Lilly:

I did really like, this book sets up a really shitty city with the bad, evil, capitalist family, and they lose, and that was great, and I loved it. It is an unequivocable victory at the end, which sometimes are just really nice to indulge in, you know?

Sara:

Mm hmm, it was rewarding.

Lilly:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!

Sara:

Bye!