Orconomics by J. Zachary Pike

Your hosts discuss Orconomics by J. Zachary Pike. They talk about fantasy maps, RPG tropes, and the genre that is “adventuring but make it a bureaucratic capitalist hellscape.” There’s also charming goblins, less charming halflings, and a new take on elves.

Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara 0:11

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 0:13

And tonight we'll be discussing Orcanomics by J. Zachary Pike. But first, what's something good that happened recently?

Sara 0:22

Something good that happened recently is, well, my good thing requires a little bit of context. So back in April,

Lilly 0:30

dawn of the 20th century. You

Sara 0:34

back in April, many, many moons ago, my company laid off about a third of my team. Which was a very bad decision for many reasons, not least of which was they laid off the one person who knew how to do one specific thing. And I kind of took over doing that one specific thing, which I don't know how to do, but it's a work in progress. And then that one specific thing broke because the one guy who was doing it was the only guy keeping it together. Because it was basically held together by two people. Spittin Prayers. And it's been broken for like, a month and a half by now? And I've been struggling to try to get it to be not broken. And I finally, I didn't fix it or at least I didn't fix it all the way, but I finally got it to like two thirds of the way there. So at least runs, even if it doesn't entirely run the way that I want it to. So that was, Very, very good. I did consider breaking out a bottle of champagne to celebrate that, because it has been that stressful and that terrible.

Lilly 1:49

would have earned it.

Sara 1:51

Yes,

Lilly 1:51

did earn it.

Sara 1:52

I did earn it.

Lilly 1:53

it. Yeah. I think. My good thing is going to be very dumb today, which is that apparently it's, I don't know, international, national, whatever the dumb social media holiday is, it's cat day.

Sara 2:07

it is a cat day.

Lilly 2:09

And so

Sara 2:10

your cats what good cats they were?

Lilly 2:12

I, they didn't need me to tell them. They know.

Sara 2:15

You did not post your cats on our Discord for cat day.

Lilly 2:21

I post my cats on Discord every day.

Sara 2:23

Yes, but you should still post your cats on discord for cat day.

Lilly 2:27

Okay, I'll post them for cat day specifically.

Sara 2:30

Yeah,

Lilly 2:31

But I have been hassling them extra, because it's their day, which means I get to poke and prod at them more than usual. Aren't they so lucky?

Sara 2:41

they're so lucky.

Lilly 2:43

What are you drinking tonight?

Sara 2:45

I feel a little bit like I should be quaffing ale.

Lilly 2:48

That's what I said! I asked if we had any Bud Light left in the house, but we do not. Heh

Sara 2:53

actually do have beer in the house for once. But I don't like beer, so I'm not gonna drink it. So I'm drinking cider instead.

Lilly 3:03

very appropriate.

Sara 3:04

I feel it's close enough to ale.

Lilly 3:07

Yeah, I'm drinking red wine, which I bet Laruna and Kaitha drink at some point in this book.

Sara 3:15

I'm pretty sure they do, at the very end. They're in that, like, upscale tavern.

Lilly 3:21

I feel like they sip wine at some point,

Sara 3:23

Yeah.

Lilly 3:24

I'm gonna call it on theme.

Sara 3:27

I think it's on theme.

Lilly 3:29

And have you read anything good lately?

Sara 3:32

I have not done a lot of reading besides podcast reading.

Lilly 3:36

That's fair.

Sara 3:38

Yep. I don't know.

Lilly 3:40

Ditto. So, the very first thing I noticed When I opened this book, before I even started reading it, was that it starts with a map. And that got me thinking, how do other people interact with maps in fantasy novels? I know it's a much beloved topic.

Sara 4:01

It is. I know a lot of people love a good map. I have to admit that I tend not to look at them. I'll look at them maybe at the end of the book. And the e book of Orcanomics does indeed have the map at the end and not the beginning. But until I know the characters and the places, I just kind of don't care about what the topography is like. And even then, I sometimes don't care about what the topography is like, because that's, like, the whole point of the story is to tell it to me.

Lilly 4:39

Yeah, I am very similar. I don't even bother to look at a map until, you know, sometimes if there's a conversation about travel, I'll go, hmm, I wonder where those two places are. I do like a map that will, like, trace. the group's journey on it for you.

Sara 5:00

Mm hmm.

Lilly 5:01

That can be fun. Although I suppose that comes after the story usually, otherwise it would be a spoiler.

Sara 5:07

Could be. Yeah,

Lilly 5:11

time on a map it's usually, if a book like really affected me and I want to just like sit and think about what I just read, sometimes I'll do that like ruminating over the map as a way of like thinking about The journey I just went on, the journey they went on But yeah, I don't know any of these places yet. Why would I look at this thing?

Sara 5:35

like, I, I like fantasy maps as a concept but I do have to admit that I generally don't look at them.

Lilly 5:45

We did ask our Discord, the Fiction Fans Discord, for additional input because we are in fact not the only people with opinions in the entire universe.

Sara 5:55

That sounds false.

Lilly 5:57

And what's not gonna sound false is that the range of answers went everywhere from Why even write a book? All I want is map. To I never look at them. Ever. Ever. Unless it's Lord of the Rings. Which I feel like is probably pretty accurate.

Sara 6:18

Yeah,

Lilly 6:19

The entire range of human emotions.

Sara 6:21

basically, I mean, I feel like from, not that we did a Twitter poll or anything, but I feel like from conversations I have seen on Twitter, more people like a map than are indifferent to them.

Lilly 6:36

Well, I think that's just the nature of being indifferent, right?

Sara 6:40

true.

Lilly 6:41

I did think it was funny. It's Orgonomics, a satire. Did that need to be said? Was J. Zachary Pike really worried someone was going to take this extremely seriously?

Sara 6:54

I mean, it's the internet. I feel like it's kind of understandable.

Lilly 7:02

Yeah, I mean, that's fair. I get it. But it was kind of funny. It was just kind of funny.

Sara 7:09

It is. He just wants to be very clear that you know that it's a satire.

Lilly 7:15

And Orgonomics is, of course, a satire of Would you say fantasy role playing games in general?

Sara 7:23

I would actually argue that it's more a satire of capitalism and, like, corporations and that kind of soul crushing work that uses fantasy role playing as the medium.

Lilly 7:43

That's like a whole ass genre now. I believe this book was first published in 2014. So, it was probably one of the earlier works in that genre. But, The, quote, fantasy adventuring as a bureaucratic capitalistic hellscape, end quote, is, like, a mouthful, but it is a whole ass genre of books.

Sara 8:08

It is, and we have read a couple of them. This is not the only one of, of that genre that we've read. I really enjoy it as a genre.

Lilly 8:18

Now that, I mean, this is the third that I can think of that really, like, fits with that. And it's so interesting, like, what is it about RPGs, role playing games, that makes people go, let's criticize society.

Sara 8:37

Well, I think it makes it really easy, because in fantasy roleplaying games, you have It's very black and white, generally, right? Like, you, the good guys, are adventuring against the bad guys who are the evil races. And, end statement, full stop. But that's not how life is, and so there's a lot of room to play there. Which is

Lilly 9:10

all of the looting that is just inherent in

Sara 9:14

Warcraft.

Lilly 9:16

role playing games. Really quick rundown of acronyms that I'm probably going to abuse. Role playing game, RPG. Do I have to say Dungeons Dragons D& D? I will just in case. TTRPG, tabletop role playing games such as Dungeons Dragons. There are some other ones that are played off of specifically in this book. In World of Warcraft, there's a mode called Player vs. Player, or PvP. where instead of fighting the enemies in the game, players can fight each other, and high level players absolutely pick on low level players.

Sara 9:57

NPC.

Lilly 10:03

Anyway, in this book they say there's the, the highest likelihood of an adventurer, or the, the most common reason an adventurer dies is from professional versus professional PVP. We also have Oh, I forget what it actually stands for in this book. In, yeah, NPC. In games, that would be Non Player Character, which refers to everyone in the world that you're not supposed to kill.

Sara 10:35

Non combatant paper carrier.

Lilly 10:39

NCP?

Sara 10:40

No,

Lilly 10:41

Oh, Non Combatant

Sara 10:42

being one word. Yeah.

Lilly 10:45

Okay. But then you do have, like, oh, quests and grinding. Grinding is a very WoW thing.

Sara 10:52

Is it specifically WoW? I mean,

Lilly 10:54

It's not only WoW, but that's like, the big one.

Sara 10:59

I mean, I've, like, obviously I'm familiar with the term and I don't play WoW, so I just assume have never associated the two, specifically.

Lilly 11:10

World of Warcraft launched in November 2004.

Sara 11:14

Okay, but when did grinding in this context come into use?

Lilly 11:19

I don't know, but 2004 was a long time ago.

Sara 11:23

I always kind of if I had, if I had to associate it with anything it would be What's the, what's the game?

Lilly 11:32

Okay, grinding has been a concept since forever. You're right.

Sara 11:36

yeah.

Lilly 11:37

What's what game?

Sara 11:39

The game Diablo. That's it. If I had to associate it with anything, I would have associated it with Diablo.

Lilly 11:48

Which came out in 96. But apparently the phrase predates that even farther,

Sara 11:53

I'm, I'm sure it does. Like, I think that's just the, One of the oldest games that, of that kind of genre that I've played.

Lilly 12:01

I guess I am just, my slang is of the WoW generation, even if I didn't actually play it that much. Which means I didn't play it at all. If you ask anyone who played WoW and you said, oh, I didn't play it that much, they would just shake their head at you. Or at least that's my experience. You can't dabble. It's all or nothing.

Sara 12:22

I played Warcraft and then it went online and I was like, nope,

Lilly 12:26

Yeah, basically same. Anyway, role playing video games and tabletop games also have the looting component too, right? Like, You're not only running around killing anything that gets in your way, you also take everything that's not nailed down.

Sara 12:46

which is the most fun bit of these games.

Lilly 12:51

And this book nails, er, nails everything. brings up the fact that you're, that often means you're stealing from the people you're supposed to be protecting, which is very funny.

Sara 13:04

Yes. I really enjoy this book and the way that it plays with all of these tropes, I have to say. I

Lilly 13:17

what's the word I'm looking for? Not slapstick, but it was just one in joke after another that were all 100 percent accurate and hilarious, but it took a little while for the plot to really kick in, I

Sara 13:32

think, I think the beginning is a little weaker.

Lilly 13:35

Yeah.

Sara 13:36

It does have a bit of a weak beginning but once it gets going I think that the way that it comes together is very satisfying, even if it goes in places that I don't like which it definitely does.

Lilly 13:55

It, there's a lot going on. I mean, as a certified nerd, I did love all of the references and the, the poking fun at, you know, oh, you need points so you can level up. And just the way of turning that into like a, of, of an in world system instead of a meta, like outside of the world system. And, but then we do actually have our main characters who get recruited for a quest against their will, and then they have to go on a quest, and following them through that, and them like, learning to work together and everything, was a very nice journey.

Sara 14:40

Yeah, and I also like the way that it plays with I mean that, that bureaucratic capitalist hellscape. Because, like, how, how does heroing function? You know, how would, the orcs react to, you know, always being the villains. Like, these are, these are all good questions that organomics kind of starts to tackle.

Lilly 15:11

Yeah, and, you know, the, and then you have the sort of insurance schemes and the like the stock systems and things, where there's the douchebag sitting at the top going, Well I funded that quest, so I get all of the money, and you get ten dollars, and also fuck you, go die in a hole. And so sort of like having that, that plotline of the business owners. The bad, the bad guys, I would say.

Sara 15:45

would say the investment firm.

Lilly 15:48

Yes. There is one trope, not exactly a trope, I'll use the word anyway, that I don't know, I don't know if this book plays with as much as uses to its advantage. But why are halflings automatically charming?

Sara 16:07

I think that's a you thing.

Lilly 16:09

It's not! There's,

Sara 16:11

I don't find them automatically charming.

Lilly 16:14

You didn't feel bad for that guy when he got killed?

Sara 16:18

I mean, I was sad for him, but

Lilly 16:20

Yeah, we know nothing about him except that he's a tafling. It's literally his only characteristic.

Sara 16:27

but you could have told me that he was human or a dwarf or an elf and I would have been equally sad.

Lilly 16:34

Really?

Sara 16:35

Yeah. I don't find I mean, I just Yeah, Halfling, they're fine. But I don't like them any more or any less than I like other, like, races in the D& D world.

Lilly 16:48

Well, that's clearly not the correct answer. I have two theories. Halflings could be automatically charming. I mean, maybe just because of the Lord of the Rings thing. I mean, they are hobbits. That's an option. But then it's also because they are small. And small things are always better than large things.

Sara 17:06

I think this is just a youth thing.

Lilly 17:09

You disagree that small things are automatically cute and better?

Sara 17:14

I don't think they're automatically I think a lot of the times, a lot of the times small things are cute, but it has to be not people related. I don't think small people or children are automatically cute.

Lilly 17:30

Halflings aren't children. That is a false comparison.

Sara 17:33

That's why I said small people or children. Like I don't, if it's human, like it doesn't work for me. But small animals, yes.

Lilly 17:43

yeah, like a miniature pig is cuter than a regular sized pig.

Sara 17:47

Yes, but a halfling is not obviously cuter than a human being.

Lilly 17:52

Oh, see, you lost me. I think that's also why, well, that's not why I loved Glebek so much. I do just have a soft spot for goblins in general. Is it because they're small?

Sara 18:06

Gleebeck is just great. I don't think, I don't think it's necessarily because he's small. Gleebeck is the reason why I wanted you to read this book.

Lilly 18:14

Oh my god, you got me nailed, I will say.

Sara 18:17

I don't always have your reading taste down, but I read this, went goblin. Gotta get Lily to read this.

Lilly 18:25

The book starts out with Gorm, who I'd say is the main character. He's a dwarf. He's sort of a disenfranchised fighter, barbarian, ex hero. And he doesn't bother to kill this goblin, because one goblin isn't a threat and what's the point? And then he sort of accidentally adopts the goblin. Because he refuses to kill him, and then also won't let anyone else kill him either. And that is, really, because of that, the rest of the book happens.

Sara 18:59

Yeah, actually. That is one of the very main inciting incidents.

Lilly 19:07

But Glebek is, oh man, really wonderful little dude.

Sara 19:13

Yeah, I liked Gleebook a lot.

Lilly 19:16

We get some other delightful little typically evil characters. There's some kobolds, orcs, of course. It's called Orgonomics. One fantasy trope that we didn't even get a reference to, though, which I thought was interesting, was the dwarf versus elf racism hatred thing, which is not even brought up. It's a complete non issue.

Sara 19:39

Yeah, it's not there at all. I did like the way, this is, Not entirely related to your statement, but it's about elves, so I'm gonna piggyback off of it. I did like the way that elves, because they live so long they start losing their memory of who they used to be, so they're continuously having to reinvent themselves. I thought that was cool and not something that I'd seen before.

Lilly 20:07

I really loved that. Yeah

Sara 20:09

And sometimes that manifests in the elf very consciously going in cycles, like redoing what they've done. So there's talk about a couple who live in abject poverty, saving up their money so that they can have a big wedding every 10 years or 20 years or whatever it was. And sometimes it results in the elf basically reinventing themselves in other ways.

Lilly 20:41

that was definitely a concept that I haven't seen explored before, and I really liked it. It was a very cool approach.

Sara 20:49

Yeah. I think most of the approaches to the races, I would say, were fairly traditional. Obviously, this book plays with the quote unquote evil races. And how they're just races. But I'd say that the approach to like dwarves and humans and halflings was, was pretty standard otherwise.

Lilly 21:18

Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, it really is relying on the reader recognizing these fantasy tropes.

Sara 21:28

Yes.

Lilly 21:29

And beyond fantasy, fantasy gaming, I would say.

Sara 21:32

Yes. Very, very specifically these role playing games. Whether that's tabletop or video game

Lilly 21:40

And so there, yeah, there's a lot of things that need no introduction, because we know them. And then there's also things that Pike was really able to subvert our expectations with. I don't know. I will say. I can only get into this a little bit, but we're at the point where I ask you who should read this book.

Sara 22:05

so if you want a fantasy D& D setting, a fantasy D& D book that has a lot of humor in it, but I know what your point is going to be and this book does go to some dark places at times. So be, warned. It's not entirely light and fluffy. Then you should read this book.

Lilly 22:29

And also, 99 percent of the book is criticizing capitalism.

Sara 22:33

Yes. Yes.

Lilly 22:36

But the thing I was gonna complain about, not that, that part was great, NOTHING about this prepared me for how intense and, like, kind of upsetting it gets at the end.

Sara 22:50

Did you actually read the back of the book, though?

Lilly 22:52

I read the, like, all of the little quotes and things.

Sara 22:57

to be fair, the back of the book does not necessarily intimate anything that happens at the end, either.

Lilly 23:06

No! Like Orcanomics is hilarious, but remarkably heartfelt. Heartily recommended. A complete joy of a book. I think there's one on the inside. I saw one that also said, like, hilarious or hysterical or something to that effect. All of these are true. None of them prepare you for that turn. And I am a little salty about it. I was not expecting this read to go the way it did.

Sara 23:33

they are all true. They do only tell you a partial story.

Lilly 23:38

And, like, it's good, and it's impactful. Was being surprised by it necessary? I don't know. I think I still would have enjoyed it, and had not been, like, extremely taken aback and had my day ruined.

Sara 23:54

I do think that it kind of telegraphs where it's going.

Lilly 24:00

You know something is up.

Sara 24:02

Yeah, so are we in the spoiler section now? This episode of Fiction Fans is brought to you by Fiction Fans. Fiction Fans.

Lilly 24:14

That's us! We really appreciate our patrons, because otherwise we fund this podcast entirely ourselves.

Sara 24:22

Patrons can find weekly bonus content like our games of Shoot, Screw, or Marry with characters from the books that we've read, monthly exclusive episodes, and biannual zine, Solstitia.

Lilly 24:36

You can find all of that and more at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. Thank you for all of your support. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. And I think now we are.

Sara 24:55

Okay, so yeah, at the very end, Gorm and his companions are on a quest to find these, they're called the elven marbles, but they're actually orcish relics. And they're on a quest to find them, and the king of their country has said you can give them either to the orcs or to the elves, you decide, you choose,

Lilly 25:21

Which is obviously a trap, that much is clear.

Sara 25:24

And they decide that they're going to give them to the orcs and the investment firm, has been waiting for this opportunity because they are losing money the money in heroing is down. All of the traditionally evil, like, villains the foes, want to get their non combatant papers so they can become NPCs because they don't want to be killed anymore. And they take this opportunity, they and the king, take this opportunity to say, the orcs stole these marbles. Back from the group. All of the heroes you can go and kill the orcs and loot them and now we've got money back because they were in a very prosperous village. And so this village gets razed to the ground. There's no one left.

Lilly 26:28

So like, I knew something was gonna go wrong, because obviously they were being set up, but I was expecting it to go wrong for the party? For like, Gorm and all of his friends?

Sara 26:40

I mean, it does go wrong for Niln.

Lilly 26:43

Yeah, who cares about him? I wasn't expecting this like, Completely innocent, like, village of families to be brutally murdered.

Sara 26:56

Yeah,

Lilly 26:58

I, I, you're right, the book did telegraph that something was suspicious about all of this. But, I just, nothing about the way the book was presented as a whole made me think it was gonna go there. And, I'm not saying it shouldn't have. It was very good. It was very well done. Like, if it hadn't done that, I think the book would have been silly and, you know, I mean, it is silly. it's on purpose. But you know what I mean.

Sara 27:25

It gives it more of a heart than just silliness.

Lilly 27:30

But I was just so mentally and emotionally unprepared for that, that it was truly upsetting.

Sara 27:41

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, at least we don't see it happen live.

Lilly 27:47

Yeah,

Sara 27:48

That's not much of a consolation. But,

Lilly 27:52

I did, at the very beginning of the book when everything was getting set up, Johan, the hero golden boy, gives Gorm, like, the inside scoop. And I was like, hmm, is this the kind of book where this is exposition? Or is this the kind of book where Johan will have been lying and all of this is actually wrong? So like, yeah, I knew something was going on.

Sara 28:19

But, I mean, to be fair, I think you do have a point. Like, a lot of this book is lighthearted enough that when it does take this very dark turn, It can be very surprising.

Lilly 28:33

Yeah. And also just like the conversations around it all focus on the goofy video game antics and not like, holy shit, let's murder some children. Okay, we did jump straight to the end there, but I felt obligated to warn others that this book is not all silly.

Sara 29:00

no, it touches on some really dark concepts. Which I think makes sense because capitalism.

Lilly 29:06

Well, yeah, I mean, it's true. It wouldn't be making as much of a statement if it didn't go that far. I just wanted some warning and not such antics. Wow. But like, they killed Wiebeck. That was the part that really

Sara 29:22

I, yeah, that just broke my heart. Because. The poor guy. He, I mean, none of them deserved it, but we've spent all this time with Gleebeck, whose actual real name is Tiburin. It's just that he didn't speak the common tongue and Gorm didn't speak Goblin. And so when Tiburin was saying hello, which was Gleebeck Gorm thought that was his name. But to Gorm's credit, once he realizes that it's not, which does take him, you know, three quarters of the book, he immediately switches.

Lilly 29:56

Yeah

Sara 29:58

But we've spent all of this time with Glebek, or Tiburin seeing him learn how to fight, and seeing him and Gorm kind of develop a relationship and you really get to care for him, and then all of a sudden he's dead.

Lilly 30:17

well, or you fall in love with him the first time he shows up with a dead rat and Gorm is like, where did that come from?

Sara 30:24

I mean, he's pretty immediately adorable,

Lilly 30:28

Yeah,

Sara 30:29

but it's harder because you do spend a lot of page time with him. Gorm thinks about his relationship with him a lot.

Lilly 30:36

which was really, I thought, my favorite part of the book. Because while Gorm does start off defending him,

Sara 30:46

It's not because he likes him.

Lilly 30:48

No, it starts off as, well, why bother killing him? And then it's kind of just him being a brat. Like, well, I don't like heroes, so if they want to kill this guy, I'm gonna stop them. It's very much about himself. It's not actually about Tibrin. And then he realizes that by the end, I think not until Tibrin dies. Where he's like, I always thought I was better than you. Well, no, no, it's when they part ways.

Sara 31:17

yeah, I think it's when Tiburin throws himself in front of Niln, who is one of the high scribes of Almatra, and kind of like, he's not the leader of the party, because Gorm is definitely the leader, but he's the one with the purse strings, he's the one who gathered them all together, if he dies, all of the heroes, are basically persona non grata.

Lilly 31:42

He's the chosen one. He's the one who starts the quest for his chosen one quest. That turns out to not be the case, but,

Sara 31:50

he thinks he's the chosen one, but yeah.

Lilly 31:53

I was so sure it was gonna be Gleebeck. Was the actual seventh hero. I was so sure because I was like, okay Yeah, he had to gather the heroes the seventh heroes the chosen one. He hasn't specifically been named the chosen one He's just pretty sure he is and who's the surprise extra person on their journey? Gleebeck slash Tibrin and like how cool would that have been? for a goblin to actually be the chosen one of this like the kind of underdog temple, would have been neat and said he dies. Instead they both die.

Sara 32:31

It would have been neat, but yeah, they do both die. But I think that Gorm really starts reevaluating his relationship with Tiburin when Tiburin throws himself in front of Niln in the Necromancer's tower.

Lilly 32:44

Yeah. He realizes how condescending he's been,

Sara 32:48

Yeah.

Lilly 32:50

because he's always been fairly kind, but that doesn't mean, like, respectful.

Sara 32:57

Right.

Lilly 32:58

Even the first time when Tibrin is starting to learn the common language and explains like, in broken English, but my name is not Gleebic, my name is Tibrin.

Sara 33:12

No, Tiburin doesn't even explain that. That doesn't get explained until it's the translator in the Orcish village.

Lilly 33:19

Well that's when they finally talk. Fucking listen, but there's a moment earlier. Hold on one

Sara 33:25

Well, he tries to explain that his name is Tiburin throughout the entirety of the book.

Lilly 33:31

Yeah,

Sara 33:32

It's just that he's doing it in Goblin.

Lilly 33:35

right and there's a page on page 216 someone says hello Gleebeck, and he says no no hello Gleebeck Tibrin Gleebeck is hello.

Sara 33:48

he does try to explain in the Common Tongue.

Lilly 33:51

That's pretty clear. I mean it's confusing but If they had been even half paying attention, they would have realized he was trying to communicate something.

Sara 34:02

Yes.

Lilly 34:03

And instead, Gorham just goes, Oh, he doesn't actually speak this language yet.

Sara 34:07

Yeah.

Lilly 34:08

is so douchey and dismissive.

Sara 34:12

Absolutely.

Lilly 34:14

And so, like, that's his growth, right? Like, him realizing they're called the Darklings, I think. All of the races that are typically evil. Oh,

Sara 34:21

I think the, the shadow, shadow the versus versus the lightlings.

Lilly 34:26

Lightlings, that's it. Darkling is a different thing.

Sara 34:29

That's, yeah.

Lilly 34:30

That's the hot bad guy in that book series.

Sara 34:33

Yes. That is my trash villain.

Lilly 34:36

Yes, Shadowkin is what I was trying to think of. Yeah, this sort of undercurrent of, hey, Shadowkin are people. Turns out, surprise, surprise, they don't like being murdered. But of course, the capitalist machine doesn't really care and is going to exploit them.

Sara 34:59

the capitalist machine kind of depends on them being murdered.

Lilly 35:03

If they're not getting murdered, they're not making money. So, sorry. What are the chances this series is finished?

Sara 35:10

I'm pretty sure it's a trilogy. I think there's just the three books.

Lilly 35:15

I would want to finish this, I think, if it's only three books.

Sara 35:18

Okay, I was hoping you would say that. I guess the description of the book doesn't

Lilly 35:24

If it's not done, I'm not reading any more.

Sara 35:29

The description of the third book just says it's the thrilling third book. Let me,

Lilly 35:35

I think I was about halfway through this book when I was like, Oh, this did say it was the first book, didn't it?

Sara 35:42

it did, it did.

Lilly 35:44

Guaranteeing the end is not going to be good.

Sara 35:48

Let me see if. So the top review on Amazon calls it a trilogy. Oh, the second review calls it a trilogy too. And the, another one says, this was an amazingly fun conclusion. So I think that it is just three books.

Lilly 36:07

If it's not done, I ain't getting into that.

Sara 36:11

It sounds like it's done.

Lilly 36:13

It better be.

Sara 36:15

It sounds like it's done.

Lilly 36:17

Because I would like to know where it goes. I think The first half of this book was mostly punny hijinks that were for me. I was definitely the target audience. I enjoyed them immensely. But then you get to the back half and it starts getting much more conceptual and the main characters start realizing where they fucked up and it gets, you know, a little more thoughtful and It has hooked me enough to want to know how it concludes, but I don't think it's hooked me enough to read eight books to find out how it concludes.

Sara 36:54

Well, how about we read books two and three on the podcast next year?

Lilly 37:00

And if three is not the end, I get to write a nasty letter.

Sara 37:03

and if three is not the end, you get to write a nasty letter and we won't read books four through eight.

Lilly 37:08

Good. Except Gleebeck is dead, so why even read more?

Sara 37:14

That is, that is hard, but. You know, we want justice for him. We gotta see justice done.

Lilly 37:21

I think that's it. I hate What was it? It wasn't Goldman Sachs, but it was basically that.

Sara 37:28

Yeah, it was like, Goldson and Braggs, or something.

Lilly 37:33

But I would really love to see them taken down.

Sara 37:36

They deserve it.

Lilly 37:38

I will spite read the rest of the series until they get

Sara 37:42

They're comeuppance. Yeah, they were they were pretty terrible. I would say cartoonishly terrible, but I'm pretty sure that it's Based on real world financial stuff, so. Can't be cartoonish if it actually happened. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 38:08

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky Instagram, and TikTok at fictionfanspod. You can also email us at fictionfanspod at gmail. com.

Sara 38:19

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 38:26

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 38:33

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!