Making Money by Terry Pratchett

Your hosts read “Making Money” by Terry Pratchett. They discuss consistent love interests and disappointing villains. Sara tries not to be too down on the book.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara 0:09

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 0:10

And tonight we will be discussing Making Money by Terry Pratchett. But first, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:18

Something great that happened recently is, this is a bit of a cheat because I, technically hasn't happened yet, but it's close enough that I'm going to use it. I am going to finish all of my Subjective Chaos reading in advance, with multiple weeks to spare, and by multiple weeks I mean like a week and a

Lilly 0:37

That's still incredible.

Sara 0:39

It counts! That is not how it happened last year, so I'm very pleased.

Lilly 0:46

Well, that is fantastic. Congratulations.

Sara 0:49

Thank you.

Lilly 0:50

My good thing is that I introduced my dad to pho.

Sara 0:53

Ooh, had, had he never had pho before?

Lilly 0:56

I was equally appalled.

Sara 0:58

Genuinely horrified.

Lilly 1:00

Yeah, it's so good. It's less good that my household has the plague, but, you know, the upside is that pho can happen.

Sara 1:09

I should think that pho doesn't require plague to happen, but

Lilly 1:14

No, it does when it's this fucking hot out, though.

Sara 1:16

okay, that's fair. That's fair.

Lilly 1:19

I went to bed immediately after dinner last night because it was hot. I just had a bunch of hot soup and I was like, I am now unconscious. What are you drinking tonight? Is it pho?

Sara 1:30

I'm not drinking pho. In honor of Mrs. Lavish from today's book, I'm drinking gin, but I'm drinking it as a gin and tonic. I'm not drinking it straight like she does.

Lilly 1:41

Well, that's fair.

Sara 1:43

Mrs. Lavish is more hardcore than I am. And I'm okay with that.

Lilly 1:47

When you own a bank, you can be as hardcore as you want.

Sara 1:50

Yep,

Lilly 1:51

I am drinking good old, pure H2O.

Sara 1:55

that's a very good thing to be drinking.

Lilly 1:57

It is, especially when I'm trying to not catch the plague.

Sara 2:00

Especially when you're trying to not catch the plague, yes.

Lilly 2:03

Well, you've been doing all this extra reading. Have you read anything good lately?

Sara 2:07

I read The Saint of Bright Doors by Vajra Chandrasekhara, which I might have mentioned reading previously, actually. It is one of the Subjective Chaos books and I quite enjoyed it.

Lilly 2:21

Wonderful. I've been on a Hobbit fanfiction kick. And with all fanfiction, there are highs and there are lows.

Sara 2:28

This is very true.

Lilly 2:30

I read the worst. It wasn't even that bad. But it was an amnesia fic, which is normally one of my, like, favorite dumbass tropes. It's absolutely a guilty pleasure of mine. And despite being well written, the story completely missed, like, the appeal of amnesia.

Sara 2:47

Interesting. How so?

Lilly 2:49

To me, amnesia in a, well, in a romance, obviously. is interesting because you are seeing two characters interact where one of the characters does not have any of the context for their existing relationship. Now this can be both an established relationship or, my personal favorite, like an enemies to lovers kind of thing, where one of them forgets that they're supposed to hate each other. It's very interesting just seeing them interact with that like different level of baggage. is Compelling. This story did not have the two characters interact. Except for, like, twice they talk and end up banging. So, like, they don't actually talk at all. And it's like, why even bother with amnesia then?

Sara 3:38

Interesting. Yeah, that does seem to miss the point of an amnesia fic.

Lilly 3:44

Yeah, I was disappointed. Anyway, a little bit of a tangent. But usually I don't like fic because they're trash. So to actually have had, like, a literary reason to have a problem with it was unusual. That's my life, complaining about fan fiction.

Sara 4:03

Well, I'm sorry that that fic was so disappointing.

Lilly 4:06

That's okay, because we read Making Money for this week, and I love this book. I realized back when we were doing Going Postal, which is the first Moist von Lipwig book, that I had definitely sort of combined these two in my head. It's been a while since I've reread them, although these are two that I've probably read the most of Discworld, other than Hogfather, of course.

Sara 4:29

I have to say that this is going to be one of those episodes where I do genuinely enjoy the book, but I'm going to be doing a lot of complaining about the book because I like it more when I'm reading it for fun on a surface level than when I try to think about it. I had some problems with this book.

Lilly 4:47

Interesting. There were a couple of problems I had with it too, but not to the level of some of the other books.

Sara 4:54

Yeah, I mean, I would say that this was kind of like thud for me or more. We're like, it's a good book if I'm just reading it.

Lilly 5:02

Well, it'll be interesting to see where our problems overlapped and where they don't.

Sara 5:06

Indeed.

Lilly 5:08

So, going postal, Moist von Lipwig, semi reformed con man, gets put in front of the National Postal Service, or Ankh Morporkian Postal Service. It's not national, it's a city, but,

Sara 5:20

Well, it's a city state.

Lilly 5:22

so, yeah. Now, in this book, Moist gets put in charge of the bank. Of a bank. Because it's not a central bank at this point.

Sara 5:32

Right, there are other banks.

Lilly 5:34

So he accidentally finds himself in control of a bank.

Sara 5:37

And he's not technically in charge of the bank, that is Mr. Fusspot, the dog, who is the chairman, but since Moist is the unintentional owner of Mr. Fusspot, he is effectively in charge of the bank.

Lilly 5:51

Yes. I noticed that this book says dollar a lot. Was that, like, regionalized? I,

Sara 5:56

No, I'm pretty sure that's just because it's the Ankh Morpork dollar.

Lilly 5:59

okay, well, why is that then?

Sara 6:01

It's never been the Ankh Morpork pound.

Lilly 6:03

What a choice. Is that just to appeal to international audiences? Is that because pound is a silly word for currency?

Sara 6:09

I don't know, but I'm fairly sure that that's not a localization thing.

Lilly 6:16

Interesting. I guess dollar is more commonly used.

Sara 6:21

I mean, more places than the U. S. have a dollar, don't they?

Lilly 6:24

Yeah, that's what I meant. Like, dollar is not necessarily referring to a specific country's currency, whereas pound is. So it's a little more broad.

Sara 6:33

So I think it may just be our very U. S. centric view that thinks it weird.

Lilly 6:38

Well, I didn't think it was weird until I was taking notes. And then I was like, hey, yeah. Oh man, I will say that 90 percent of my notes were just any time Adorabelle Dearheart said anything, and then my comment was, I love her so much.

Sara 6:55

I like her. She's fine.

Lilly 6:57

She's fantastic.

Sara 6:59

think I love her quite as much as you do,

Lilly 7:01

Oh, she is incredible. She has actually maintained her interest outside of Moiste von Lipwig.

Sara 7:09

for the moment.

Lilly 7:10

I actually haven't read, what is it, Raising Steam?

Sara 7:13

Yeah.

Lilly 7:15

Well, I'll be sad if she gets, her character gets hamstrung in that, but we'll

Sara 7:18

I mean, to be fair, I've read Raising Steam once when it came out. I don't think I've read it since. So my comment is not based on knowledge.

Lilly 7:30

You're just giving me a hard time.

Sara 7:32

Well, also, also, historically love interests don't have The greatest track record of continuing on as being fully fledged human beings outside of their romantic interests in Discworld

Lilly 7:49

And that's what makes Adora so fantastic. Not only does she still have her important occupation of being, like, custodian of the Golem Trust, like, her actions with that had plot relevance.

Sara 8:03

I'm saying, I'm saying that, that it takes a couple of books for them to To lose that.

Lilly 8:11

Fair. They're so good though. And then, like, Moist being into her because he respects her. Very good. at the very, very beginning it's established that she knows that he's a secret reformed con man, which It was a pretty important plot point in Going Postal, him revealing that to her. But also, yeah, you can't really have a relationship with someone if you have such a dark past. And she's just like, yeah, that's fine.

Sara 8:40

I mean, I'm glad that there's no attempt to hide that from her because I think that it makes the relationship much more equal footing,

Lilly 8:50

Mm

Sara 8:50

but that's something that happens in Going Postal.

Lilly 8:54

He gets annoyed that she flirts with a ghost to get what she wants. And then she's like, you flirt with everyone to get what you want. And Moist goes, yeah, okay, fair enough.

Sara 9:05

She does have a point there.

Lilly 9:07

Yeah, it's just, they're really good. She's great. And she's not, like Sweet.

Sara 9:17

She's not sweet. I mean, she's very spiky, but I don't know, I still don't really Understand why she agreed to marry him.

Lilly 9:30

Well, I, presumably she likes him for the same reason he likes her, which is someone that can actually challenge them.

Sara 9:38

Yeah, but the, I don't know, the books haven't really made me believe that. Which is not to say that I don't like the relationship, but it's, I don't know, it It doesn't grab me quite the way that it grabs you.

Lilly 9:52

I think I like her, and so her being happy in a relationship I like. And I don't question it much more than that.

Sara 9:59

That's fair. That's fair. Something I was not a big fan of in this book is there's a lot more fat shaming that happens specifically with regards to the two main antagonists, or two of the main antagonists Cosmo and Poochy Lavish.

Lilly 10:20

Yeah, I wonder if any of that is connected with the rich people being fat because they don't do any real labor sort of trope. But even then, it's not handled well.

Sara 10:36

Yeah, I mean, I think I could maybe believe that if the book had made any mention of it, but It's not The way that they're described is more like, Ha ha, look at these fat, ugly people, because you can't be attractive if you're fat. And these are the, like, the antagonists, of course you're not going to root for them.

Lilly 11:05

Yeah, especially, so Cosmo and Poochie are siblings, and there's a lot of narrative around, or there's a lot of description around Poochie that's like, Is it absurd that she has confidence? How dare this woman not be embarrassed of her appearance?

Sara 11:25

Yeah, like, oh, she has great hair, and that makes up for her being fat.

Lilly 11:31

Okay, so that part's not great, but there are so many more wonderful female characters in this book than we've typically seen.

Sara 11:40

You say, you say so many. There's Mrs. Lavish, who I do like.

Lilly 11:47

Yeah.

Sara 11:48

That's one.

Lilly 11:49

Adora, which even if you don't like her relationship with Moist, she's a great female

Sara 11:54

Okay, that's two.

Lilly 11:56

And Saturin, Saccharissa. The, the Times reporter. I loved her.

Sara 12:03

I wouldn't say that three is a lot more than we normally get.

Lilly 12:08

It's a lot more than we normally get in a Pratchett book.

Sara 12:12

I guess it's more than we get in some Pratchett books. But okay, I guess, I guess what I'm saying is that, that's such a low bar. I don't know if, I don't know if, It really counts as overcoming it.

Lilly 12:29

That didn't make any sense.

Sara 12:32

It's, okay, how, how do I want to phrase this? Like, the fact that we have three good female characters should not be considered As this book having a lot of great female characters because three should be like bare minimum.

Lilly 12:51

That's shitty. Improvement should always be appreciated.

Sara 12:55

Sure, but, I don't know, I, it just doesn't, like, Maybe it's, maybe it's just that I don't think that any of the characters except Adora are around long enough to really count.

Lilly 13:10

Interesting.

Sara 13:11

Because Mrs. Lavish, my, that's kind of a spoiler maybe?

Lilly 13:18

Of the book? Well, he has to get in charge of the bank somehow. Okay, I don't think longevity matters though. Because when you're talking about a good character, I mean, yes, they have to have some presence in the story in order to be good. Because just You know, a passing person on the street, that's not really a character. But, if they're a good character, they're a good character, even if they're not like a main character.

Sara 13:42

yeah, but to, I think for me, what I'm, what I'm trying to get at is that for you, for the statement, this book has great female characters to apply in my mind, they have to be characters who have, who, who have an impact on the plot throughout the book and not just like, they don't just show up for the first, you know, 5%. of the novel or They don't show up for two lines at a time, you know every 50 pages

Lilly 14:23

So you don't think it's possible to have a good minor character?

Sara 14:26

I do but I don't I don't think that that that means that they qualify as being great female characters enough to Make that statement stand.

Lilly 14:38

I mean, I think it's better to have that than not.

Sara 14:42

Sure. But I still wouldn't say that this, like, this book has great female characters. When two out of the three of, of the characters that you're talking about like are so minor,

Lilly 14:55

Right, but that's more than usual.

Sara 14:58

maybe. I don't know. It's just that the statement doesn't, doesn't ring true to me. That's, we can, we can

Lilly 15:06

when we compare it to the City Watch books, where we get Angua, period.

Sara 15:12

I mean, we get charissa in the, in some of the city watch books too. I don't know, I think she gets about the same amount of screen time.

Lilly 15:20

Yeah, but she doesn't have the same rivalry with Vimes as she does with Moist, which I really enjoyed. That like, them trying to outwit each other, they're both verbal manipulators, right? They're playing the same game and aware that they're both playing the same game, and just like them bouncing off of each other and trying to see who slips up first. Was very enjoyable.

Sara 15:43

Yeah, I don't know, it's, it's fine, I guess.

Lilly 15:49

Alright.

Sara 15:50

It was fine. I, yeah, their, their relationship doesn't, doesn't bring me the same amount of joy. I don't know what to say.

Lilly 15:59

And I guess that means she doesn't count as a character. Alright.

Sara 16:02

It doesn't mean that she doesn't count as a character.

Lilly 16:05

Well, does Mr. Fusspot count as a character?

Sara 16:09

Mr. Fusspot is clearly the best character. Clearly. He, Mr. Fusspot is a pug and the, the description of him being a mutt can't change my mind.

Lilly 16:23

Hehehehe. No, he's absolutely a pug. No question. The description of him as having the, like, buggy goldfish eyes, but the, like, smushed in snout. What other dog could that possibly be?

Sara 16:36

I mean, there are, there are lots of other dogs. Like bulldogs, for example, or Frenchies. Well, I guess Frenchies are bulldogs.

Lilly 16:45

Their eyes do not bug out the same way.

Sara 16:47

their eyes are pretty buggy. Or they can be pretty buggy.

Lilly 16:51

That's not like the defining characteristic of the breed, though.

Sara 16:57

I don't think it's the defining characteristic of pugs either. But either,

Lilly 17:02

no.

Sara 17:04

either way, I read the description of Mr. Fusspot and immediately went, that's a pug. And then a couple, like a page later they describe Mr. Fusspot as the son of many fathers and being a mutt. And I'm like, okay, maybe not a pug, but still a pug. Mr. Fusspot is a pug in my heart.

Lilly 17:29

I mean, he's a pug.

Sara 17:30

He's, he's a pug. The book's just wrong when it says he's not.

Lilly 17:35

Yeah. I mean, who told that story, right? That character is probably just mistaken.

Sara 17:40

Clearly.

Lilly 17:42

Okay, well, do you think Vet Nari was a good character in this book?

Sara 17:47

I like Fetunari in this book, mostly. I'm sorry. I, I told you this, like, I said up front that I was going to be pretty negative about this book in this episode. Like, I like the book when I don't think about it.

Lilly 18:04

baffling to me.

Sara 18:06

It's just, it, this book just does not work for me. when, when I try to, when I try to analyze it.

Lilly 18:14

Well, who would like this book?

Sara 18:17

If you really enjoy Moist's story, you'll probably like this book. Although, that being said, I do really like Going Postal.

Lilly 18:28

So, yeah, I mean, I think we continue the aspect of him pulling cons, but in, within established systems. Which is Very fun. I think if that appeals to you. Do you think you can read this without reading Going Postal?

Sara 18:52

No, I think it relies a lot on the reader having some knowledge of who Moist is, who Moist was, and understanding what has brought Moist from being a con man, an entirely unreformed con man, to being a semi reformed con man. So I think that you do have to read Going Postal first.

Lilly 19:23

I agree. I think this book makes some attempts, or at least to remind you if it's been a while. But there are a couple of lines where Moist is like, back when he was a con man, before he got his second chance and stuff like that. That's clearly trying to nudge the reader along in a way that would be completely unnecessary if you read the books back to back. But, I think those comments probably do more heavy lifting as reminders to a reader than they do catching someone up from zero.

Sara 20:00

Yeah, I definitely think that they are geared towards, nudging the reader if it's been a rather than giving the reader all of the context that they need to understand the character.

Lilly 20:19

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. But first, a word from our sponsors. Us! We're the sponsors! We pay for this podcast out of pocket.

Sara 20:30

we do. And it does cost money. There's hosting the website, there's hosting the podcast. There's, you know, improving our audio equipment. There's the cost of transcripts because we have transcripts on our website for people who don't want to listen to us. Jabber, all the time.

Lilly 20:53

Or who like having a transcript to a company listening to us jabber all the time.

Sara 20:58

Or that too. So yes, this podcast does cost money.

Lilly 21:03

Yes. If you support us on Patreon, you get access to some fun bonus content. We release weekly, like, outtakes and additional segments. We have monthly exclusive episodes available only to our patrons. We do post little sneak peeks in our feed, but the majority of the episode is patron only. And I think for the rest of this advertising space, we should get to listen to pug noises.

Sara 21:30

Mr. Squeak. Mr. Squeak make noises for the, for the mic.

Lilly 21:36

She's gotta learn how to do it on command.

Sara 21:39

She's being very quiet now.

Lilly 21:41

She is! Mr. Squeak, where is this when we're talking? There's

Sara 21:46

a little bit.

Lilly 21:48

I heard it. That's good, I'm content. Can you just like squeeze her a little like an accordion? Will that get the noises out?

Sara 21:57

If I could move my mic, can I? How do I?

Lilly 22:02

I'm being silly, you don't have to actually force your dog to make cute noises.

Sara 22:06

Well, if it was easier to move the mic, to bring it to them, Maybe then we would have better results.

Lilly 22:13

That's okay. But since we're the sponsors, we get to put whatever we want. And so, that's what we chose.

Sara 22:21

Sorry, listeners.

Lilly 22:25

So, the Lavish family was the previous empire controlling this bank before a second wife goes rogue and bequeaths the whole thing, or 51 percent to her dog, and then bequeaths her dog to Moist von

Sara 22:43

no, I think she only bequeaths 50 percent because that was all she owned. The dog already owned 1%.

Lilly 22:49

Okay, yes, but that takes longer to explain.

Sara 22:53

But yes, so Mrs. Lavish, who does all that, is great. And I love her. And as the inciting person for the action of this book, She's fantastic, but the rest of the lavishes are not really all that threatening as antagonists. Like I don't ever think that Moist is in Genuine danger for whatever value of danger like not necessarily of his life, but of his livelihood of losing the bank You know, whatever. They, they just don't convince me as genuine threats.

Lilly 23:41

Yeah, especially when you compare them to Richard Gilt, who was the antagonist in Going Postal, because he was

Sara 23:49

Yeah, Richard Gill was a fantastic antagonist, and, and I thought a very good foil for Moist. And Pratchett tries to bring a little bit of that in with Moist's former associate who shows up like three quarters of the way through the book. But it still, I don't know, it still falls a little flat for me.

Lilly 24:14

think they were infuriating villains more than intimidating villains.

Sara 24:22

They just seem kind of sad. Like, Cosmo has this whole thing where he doesn't think that he's veterinary, he really wants to be veterinary, and this delusion kind of spirals. And then Poochie just talks about herself a lot, I guess, and that's kind of it.

Lilly 24:48

I agree, we don't actually see them doing anything. I think the weakness here is that these are, they're old money, right? Like, this family controlled a whole fucking bank. They are supposed to have a lot of power because of this generational wealth, and we never actually see them effectively use that? Like, that's their whole threat, is that they have. money. They can control things because of that and bully people. They try to bully Moist, it doesn't work. They kind of bully Mr. Bent, the sort of head guy at the bank underneath Moist, but we never actually see them people with capitalism the way that I think their situation was supposed to imply.

Sara 25:43

Yeah, like, I just don't think that they are used very effectively in this novel.

Lilly 25:50

I'd be okay with them, Obviously, I don't want them to have won. I don't want them to have beat Voicemon Living.

Sara 25:56

Right.

Lilly 25:57

But if they had done any successful machination, I think, yeah, we never actually see them pull anything off. Even Cosmo, when he finds It starts with, it's not cribbage, but I feel like that's

Sara 26:11

Cribbins or something.

Lilly 26:13

Yeah, the, the con man who knew Moist from before. that he's not able to effectively, like, do anything with. And that, I mean, it freaks Moist out for a good portion of the book, but nothing actually comes

Sara 26:28

Right, it just, it just feels very non threatening. Like, they're impotent villains. I guess I just wanted them to be a little more effective. Like, obviously I don't want them to have won. But I wanted Moist to have to struggle a little bit more against them. And it, it feels like he doesn't struggle against them at all because they're so incompetent. Or not, not necessarily incompetent, but ineffectual.

Lilly 27:01

I mean, both. And, I mean, that's, should be what's terrifying about them, right? They are so incompetent, and yet they have all this power that they neither earned nor deserve.

Sara 27:13

we don't see them. I, I think that your point would be more valid if we ever saw them that power.

Lilly 27:21

No, no, that's, I'm, I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying, in concept, it works. But we don't get anything to back it

Sara 27:29

yeah, exactly.

Lilly 27:32

And I wonder if that's just too real.

Sara 27:35

I don't think so because Pratchett has dealt with some very real issues in his previous books.

Lilly 27:42

Yeah,

Sara 27:43

I don't think that's An excuse.

Lilly 27:46

maybe I'm just touchy about billionaires throwing their weight around and ruining stuff.

Sara 27:50

Well, that's valid.

Lilly 27:52

There was one savage, I guess two savage lines, but the same line shows up twice, where the concept that if your father was a criminal, it's embarrassing, but if your forefather had been a pirate and a slaver and a thief, That that's family history and fun and quirky.

Sara 28:12

I did like that. I mean, like, there are some great lines in this book because it's a Pratchett novel, and of course, of course, he's gonna have some brilliant lines.

Lilly 28:20

Right. I feel like that was trying to get at privilege.

Sara 28:24

Yeah.

Lilly 28:26

Well, I mean, that does get at privilege. But,

Sara 28:28

Yeah, there are other books that, that deal with privilege better in the Discworld series, I think.

Lilly 28:38

Yeah. But I mean, I really do think it is because we are told that they are privileged, but we never actually see

Sara 28:44

Yeah,

Lilly 28:45

We just see people fleecing them. Like the lawyers At their family gathering, everyone has their own lawyer with them. And whenever they're having a family argument, the lawyers are like, Allegedly! Allegedly! And then like, bills them for the time. Hilarious mental image does not set the lavishes up for being, like you said effective at

Sara 29:11

yeah, and like, we see Cosmo being taken advantage of by his secretary, who lied to get in the position and is lying about all of the stuff that he's getting that's supposedly veterinaries.

Lilly 29:25

Yeah, like if they have unlimited money to throw around, they'd be able to get competent lawyers. Like, Cranberry, the hired killer, the assassin, that kind of thing, right? Because money is no object, he just has an assassin on call, and whenever he's like I don't like that person, or I'm worried that they might tell someone, let's just get rid of them. Like, that kind of flippant disregard for other people should have been more consistent or more clear, or just, like, had a bigger

Sara 29:59

but isn't it even implied that Cranberry is not a licensed assassin. Like he's just a killer.

Lilly 30:06

Yeah, but that's fine, he does a good

Sara 30:08

He, he does do a good job, but

Lilly 30:11

He's not scamming Cosmo.

Sara 30:13

scamming Cosmo. It's true. But I don't, don't believe that Cosmo knows the difference between, even though Cosmo was trained at the Assassin's Guild, I don't believe that Cosmo knows the difference between an assassin and a hired killer. And I feel like. He thinks that Cranberry is the one when he's the other.

Lilly 30:39

Maybe, but that doesn't change my point.

Sara 30:43

It, it doesn't, it just, continues to lower my estimation of Cosmo as a villain.

Lilly 30:50

Well, and the fact that Moist doesn't really beat Cosmo, Cosmo beats himself by being such a, like, weird Vetinari fangirl that he thinks he has the real signet ring and Vetinari has the fake, but of course, he doesn't. His butler, I don't remember his name. I actually loved

Sara 31:14

heretofore.

Lilly 31:15

Here's a four,

Sara 31:16

He's great. I mean, I did like that character, too.

Lilly 31:20

I want to celebrate him pulling one over on this guy. And it was hard to, which is impressive.

Sara 31:28

And see, I think, again, that comes back to my issue with Cosmo as a villain, because if he was slightly more villainous or more effective as a villain, I could really enjoy the scam that Heretofore pulls. But because he's just sad, like,, you weren't Putting in minimal effort for, for this, and it should be harder, like you should be working harder for this scam so that I can appreciate it succeeding.

Lilly 32:04

Oh, that wasn't what bothered me. Because we see him being very worried. He's sure that Cranberry's gonna kill him next at any moment. Like, he's putting emotional labor into it for sure.

Sara 32:18

Yeah, but he still does like five of these scams.

Lilly 32:22

So the number is what makes it not difficult?

Sara 32:25

No, so that like, if, if he was really concerned about Cranberry, Catching on, or Cosmo catching on, I feel like he would have stopped sooner.

Lilly 32:38

Oh, I didn't think the problem was that he thought Cosmo would catch on. I mean, there was that too. But even if he didn't catch on, Cosmo murdered people because he didn't want them to, like, tell anyone his

Sara 32:51

Yeah, so like, if he,

Lilly 32:54

if he didn't catch on, he still could have

Sara 32:55

if, if he was more worried about that, like, he would have been, had Cosmo been more effective as a villain, he would have left sooner.

Lilly 33:05

I don't think. I think that's splitting hairs. I think you're annoyed at this book and looking for something to complain about there.

Sara 33:12

Maybe.

Lilly 33:13

Eh.

Sara 33:14

I mean, like, I liked him. I just didn't feel like he was ever in danger either. And I feel like he should have been. Because I think that Cosmo should have been more effective.

Lilly 33:26

Maybe. I did think, okay, so, Cosmo wears this signet ring that's way too small for him, and it like, cuts off circulation to his finger, and it dies, and gets infected, and that drives him crazy? And then in the end, he thinks he really is Vetinari?

Sara 33:48

It's just kind of sad.

Lilly 33:50

Yeah, that, the, the delusion at the end where he thinks he is veterinary instead of just, like, wanting to be him, wanting to take his place. That was a leap that I didn't really gel

Sara 34:05

I didn't actually mind that, to be honest. Because we do see that germinate throughout the book. Like, he calls Heretofore by Drumnott's name. We see a lot of him putting himself into the position of that Nari, like. And enough that I could make that leap. So that, yeah, that particular aspect didn't bother me. And I did like that it ends with him in a hospital wing full of people who think they're veterinary.

Lilly 34:45

That was a nice touch and real. Like, there are Jesus wings in some psychiatric hospitals.

Sara 34:51

Cosmo finally, like, he wins the eyebrow lifting competition.

Lilly 34:58

It does kind of seem like he got a happy ending.

Sara 35:00

Yeah.

Lilly 35:00

happy at the end. He had a mental break, but he's happy

Sara 35:04

He kind of does.

Lilly 35:07

We never hear what happened to Poochie.

Sara 35:09

We don't yeah, we don't know what happens to Poochie.

Lilly 35:14

There's a, I don't even want to call it a misdirect, because it's so obvious. Not what the eventual twist is, but the fact that we're being set up with a red herring. Mr. Bent, the head clerk at the bank, is so straight laced. Like, No humor or what he calls silliness at all. He's amazing at counting, and is also like, kind of a weird dude. So of course, everyone assumes he's a vampire. He has some secret about his origins. He's gotta be a vampire. And, you know, you also, the reader also thinks that. It's like, all the counting stuff, that's totally a vampire thing. Except then it gets so hammered in that of course he's secretly a vampire. his past must be that he's a vampire. You go, okay, so he's not a vampire. And then it turns out that he's actually a clown.

Sara 36:10

So I do like that, but I don't necessarily like how the reveal is done because there's a lot about this book that's actually really slapstick, and one of those scenes is Moist is on trial for losing all of the gold in the bank and Bent comes in at the very end of the trial As a clown, and this is like his big reveal, and he starts throwing cream pies. And it's so slapstick that, I don't know, it just didn't, like, like many things in this book, when I, when I try to actually, like, sit down with him, it just didn't work for me.

Lilly 36:59

So that didn't bother me at all because this book spent so much time building up how important seriousness is to him that, like, it had the going with the full reverse. Like, feels right?

Sara 37:16

I'm not,

Lilly 37:16

Like, if it had come out of

Sara 37:18

I'm not saying that it comes out of nowhere or that it's wrong for his character, but that scene doesn't work for me.

Lilly 37:26

Interesting. Yeah, I didn't have a problem with that at

Sara 37:28

Yeah, it's just. I, like, the mental image of him throwing pies and him capturing four people in his ladder and Moist jumping to save Vetinari from getting pied in the face, it's too much for me, personally.

Lilly 37:49

Hmm, interesting. Yeah, I, I think it worked for him. And so I was okay with it.

Sara 37:56

Like, I, I get how it works for the character and I'm not arguing against it as a character choice, but, you know, just, you know. Not everything is for every reader.

Lilly 38:10

Yeah. You know what did not work for me, though? Was the way Moist treated him through the whole book.

Sara 38:18

It, it feels out of character for Moist.

Lilly 38:22

yeah, he's a total dick to him. Just, like, very dismissive. Always talking down to him and, like, needling him. And that's very different from the Moist that we met in Going Postal, where he knew he had to get on his employees good sides for them to help him take over and run the postal system.

Sara 38:44

I mean,

Lilly 38:45

And then, he goes to the bank, and he's like, Oh, the person who knows how everything works, and is basically running it right now. Yeah, I'm gonna antagonize the hell out of you.

Sara 38:55

there is talk a little bit about how Moist is, I don't know, lost his edge because he's been respectable for so long. And so maybe you could write that off as, as related to that, but he still has his people skills. I mean, you would, you would think that he would still recognize the importance of, being on good terms with the people who actually know how to do things.

Lilly 39:28

Yeah, I, maybe if later in the book, there had been a moment of realization, where Moist was like, Oh, I fucked that up, then I would've been okay with it. But it's never really addressed at

Sara 39:41

Yeah, it's not really addressed. It seems kind of like one of those things where, what happens is not dictated by the characters or the, or the natural course of things. It's because Pratchett wanted there to be some kind of conflict.

Lilly 40:00

Yeah, I could see

Sara 40:01

And, like, I felt that way about so there's a scene where Moist saves a forger from being hanged because he needs his skills in making these new dollar notes. And he goes, there's an Igor who is working for. the bank, essentially, and he wants to make sure that the forger has a new identity because obviously he doesn't want him hanged because he needs his skills. And Igor does something to put like all of his trauma in a turnip or something But that, because now the Forger has no trauma, he also has no art skills

Lilly 40:53

And I mean, that's, that's fine. What that whole thing was trying to make a comment about but that's a really long sequence for one comment That doesn't have anything to do with the rest

Sara 41:03

It is, and it also felt like a, an impediment to Moist's plan that's there just because otherwise things are going too well for Moist, not because it actually Not, not because it would actually follow from what's happening.

Lilly 41:29

Interesting that it didn't bother me that it was in I mean, I could totally see an Igor doing that

Sara 41:34

Right, I could see an Igor doing that, but, but the whole, like, consequences, like, it just felt like, like, Moist needed a setback at that point in the book, so this was going to be it, regardless of whether or not it made sense.

Lilly 41:53

I guess it didn't even set him back that

Sara 41:55

It, it doesn't, which, I think if it actually had had an impact, I would have liked it better.

Lilly 42:02

Yeah, I mean I it's not really on theme for the rest of the book, right? It feels like this book is trying to say eat the rich but then kind of wimps out.

Sara 42:12

Yes.

Lilly 42:14

And suffering creates art is a very different conversation. So I'm not sure why it's there.

Sara 42:22

I,

Lilly 42:23

But the, the sequence itself didn't bother me.

Sara 42:26

I think that. My issue is more, yeah, I don't know why it's there. It doesn't add anything to the plot of the book the way that it should.

Lilly 42:38

It's just a little side gag. And Project does love his little side

Sara 42:41

But a lot of the times the side gags are more relevant.

Lilly 42:45

I can't think of any specific examples, but I will push back on that. Yeah,

Sara 42:50

Okay. But you can't think of any specific examples. So know. It felt like it. Was more of an island when it should have been a peninsula.

Lilly 42:59

Yeah, totally. And honestly I remember the forger detail, because I loved that so much, like, hire the best forger to design your

Sara 43:10

Yeah. Like that's great.

Lilly 43:11

else can do it. That's great. I completely forgot about everything else. That entire underground, like, mad scientist laboratory under the bank. was not in my head at all. After, and I've read this book multiple times, and I completely forgot about that. So clearly it did not stick in my subconscious.

Sara 43:32

I don't mind the mad scientist under the bank, like kind of, I don't want to call it a subplot, but detour in general.

Lilly 43:41

didn't mind it, it just clearly didn't affect me in

Sara 43:44

Yeah. But it was, it was this specific thing with, with the forger and being unable to, to draw the new notes that just felt. I don't know. Unnecessary. Because it doesn't go anywhere.

Lilly 44:01

I mean,

Sara 44:03

I wanted it to have more impact.

Lilly 44:06

I think, you know, You wanted Moist to have more struggle overall. If he had been struggling with something else and that had just been in there as a little bit, it would have been fine.

Sara 44:16

Yeah, probably.

Lilly 44:18

But because it was like the only roadblock he had, the fact that it wasn't really one is silly. I don't know. I agree. I think you're right. Going postal is better than this book. love Adorabelle Deerheart. I really love The Golden Golem thing, and how Moist like, realizes his golden suit makes him look like a priest to them, and so they

Sara 44:42

I do like that. Like, that's, that's good. And I, I also like the Golden Golem, and not realizing that that means thousands of golems.

Lilly 44:55

And the sort of through line of, he invents stamps that are worth money, and people start using them as money, and that like, gives him the idea for paper money. Like, that was a very fun sort of continuation from Going Postal. Go to

Sara 45:14

yeah, like, it's a, it's a fun book. And like I said, I enjoy reading it. Yeah. But I have to read it on a surface level and not do a deep dive like we do for the podcast.

Lilly 45:28

Fair. I'm very interested to see going, like, what happens in Raising Steam.

Sara 45:34

I've read that. I think, like I said, I think I've just read it the once. So I don't remember anything about it. It'll be like coming to it fresh.

Lilly 45:45

Well, I think that's gonna be a good, like, okay, we've had one banger of a Moist Fun Lipstick novel. We've had one of a Moist Fun Lipstick novel,

Sara 45:57

Yes.

Lilly 45:59

and then we'll see how Raising Steam kind of Right, because that's the last one, right? For him.

Sara 46:04

I think so, but my knowledge of the Discworld books

Lilly 46:10

Well, it's the last one before Shepard's Crown, so I think it

Sara 46:13

Oh, yes, it has to be then. Yeah, my knowledge of the Discworld books gets fuzzier for the last books because I've read them less.

Lilly 46:25

It'll be interesting to see how it

Sara 46:26

it will be. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 46:32

Come disagree with us! We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara 46:42

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Lilly 46:50

We also have a Patreon, you might have heard of it, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 46:56

again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!

Lilly 47:01

Bye!