Cassiel's Servant by Jacqueline Carey

Your hosts are joined by Krystle Matar to talk about Cassiel's Servant by Jacqueline Carey, a book that covers the same events as Kushiel's Dart but from another character's perspective. Lilly can't even bring herself to describe it as "the love interest's perspective" due to how there is neither love nor interest in Kushiel's Dart (although Sara disagrees), but Cassiel's Servant was pretty fun. They discuss the huge shift in genre, different characters' priorities, and some retconning.

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of fictional sexual assault and grooming.

This whole episode contains spoilers for both Kushiel's Dart and Cassiel's Servant.

Find more from Krystle:
https://x.com/KrystleMatar 

Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:03

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah, and tonight we are so pleased to welcome Crystal Matar back onto the podcast to talk about Cassiel's Servant by Jacqueline Carey.

Krystle 0:19

I'm very happy to be here. This is one of my favorite places for podcasting.

Lilly 0:24

home away from home.

Krystle 0:25

Yeah, exactly

Lilly 0:27

I do like that you waved, listeners.

Krystle 0:29

I forgot.

Lilly 0:32

sweet. So I'll just narrate everything for our listeners, yeah.

Sara 0:37

Well, you're used to doing a podcast with video, right? So it makes sense. You've, you've got that ingrained in you.

Krystle 0:44

yeah, I do. Or, or YouTube lives with, uh, the various live streamers. Those ones are very stressful because if I really fuck up, there's no editing.

Lilly 0:56

Well, I think we all have a lot of opinions about this book. But before we get into it. What's something great that happened recently?

Krystle 1:03

I'm on this podcast again with two of my favorite people in the world. That's my great thing.

Sara 1:09

That is a good thing.

Krystle 1:11

Yeah, it's nice. We used to do this a lot more often and then we took a break and now I'm back to doing it often again, and I'm happy with that.

Lilly 1:20

I went camping last weekend, which was lovely. We don't do backpacking like Sarah does. We do car camping. It's my kind of camping.

Krystle 1:29

I respect it.

Sara 1:30

You're not hardcore enough.

Lilly 1:32

know. No, I'm not.

Krystle 1:33

I feel like I'd like to be a backpacker in theory because it's not so much the exercise that would turn me off but I'm so bad with heat and I feel like I would not survive in California backpacking. I would die. I

Sara 1:52

because you're up at altitude, so it's cooler, and depending on when you go, there can be thunderstorms in the middle of the day, and that cools things off too.

Krystle 2:02

would do it then. Okay I'll go, I'll go backpacking with you during rainy season

Sara 2:07

Okay.

Krystle 2:07

and I'll go car camping with Lily for the rest of the year.

Lilly 2:10

pretty delightful. Mostly. Like board games, and reading, and Daniel brings an easel and does a new painting every year. All of these are not things that are backpacking friendly.

Sara 2:21

I think car camping also probably has better food.

Lilly 2:24

yes, yes, we do some excellent campfire cooking.

Sara 2:28

I would disagree though, reading is very backpacking friendly.

Lilly 2:32

But your phone can die and the books are heavy, so what do you do?

Sara 2:35

I bring a portable charger and for longer trips I have one of those like solar powered chargers.

Lilly 2:42

We had one of those, it didn't work very well.

Krystle 2:44

Yeah, if you do it enough, you invest in a decent one, probably.

Lilly 2:47

Well Sarah, you already used backpacking for a recent one though, so you have to come up with something new.

Sara 2:52

I did, I know.

Krystle 2:54

Justin!

Sara 2:55

And, uh, I have more backpacking in my future, but that'll be a future good thing. I think my good thing this week is that, so both of the pugs have had an intestinal bug for like the last three weeks. It's been kind of miserable. It's not been a pretty sight. Every time I think they're over it, it comes back. It has come back for Mr. Squeak again, but I think Snorri, knock on wood, Might be over it. So, that's my good thing.

Krystle 3:26

That is a good thing, getting them over that is a huge thing.

Sara 3:29

I'm really hoping he's over it, I mean, it's been, it's been a lot.

Krystle 3:34

That's rough. I

Sara 3:35

Yep.

Lilly 3:36

Well what is everyone drinking this evening?

Krystle 3:38

mean, I've got a beer tonight. It's called Bone Shaker from a brewery down in Toronto. And I swear the reason I drink this beer is because I love the label so much. It's just like a skeleton on a really old fashioned bicycle. Which is kind of a stupid reason to drink beer, but also it's really strong. So it feels like I'm getting my money's worth. Laughter.

Sara 4:01

That's a fine reason to drink a beer.

Krystle 4:03

There we go. So yeah, that's what I'm drinking. I'll probably get the whiskey once, once I'm done with the bum shaker.

Sara 4:09

I was gonna say, I'm drinking whiskey, both because Crystal is, my whiskey sibling is on, but also because they mention peated whiskey in the book. So it's on theme. Theme.

Krystle 4:19

Yeah, one of these days we'll have to build like a whiskey TBR of like, books that have the correct opinions about alcohol.

Sara 4:27

Yes. Legacy of the Bright Wash right up there at the top.

Lilly 4:32

I wanted to go on theme, but didn't have time to go to the store. So instead, I'm drinking the dregs of a boda box of rosé.

Krystle 4:40

Nice, I respect

Lilly 4:41

But it has ice in it, and that's kind of what I need.

Krystle 4:44

is nice. He said it was pretty hot today, so I definitely respect that.

Lilly 4:49

Well, has anyone read anything good lately? Oh,

Sara 4:52

ton lately, actually. I finished reading Mad Sisters of Essie. by Tashin Mehta, which I think I talked about in our last episode, and I absolutely adored everything fantasy should be. I'm so pleased that DAW just acquired it and is bringing it over to the U. S. It was originally published by HarperCollins India. Fantastic book, everyone should read it. I also read Corey Fah Does Social Mobility by Isabelle Widener, I believe, which I liked. Was really weird. I'm not entirely sure I was smart enough to get it. It did have basically demon spider Bambi in it. As in Bambi with two spider legs coming out of each hoof. Very odd. But it was a quick read. So,

Krystle 5:39

Well, that's really weird mental image, Sarah, and I'm stuck on that now, thanks.

Sara 5:49

You're welcome. I mean, really blame the author for that. I didn't come up with it.

Krystle 5:56

I guess so, that's true, it's not your fault, you can't be blamed. I've been in one of those reading limbo's where I just keep starting books and not finishing them. And not because there's anything wrong with them, I just like, I don't know, I'm just not connecting at the moment.

Sara 6:12

You're just not in the right mood for them.

Krystle 6:15

Yeah, yeah, like, I kind of acknowledge this, like, this is great, but I'm just not, I'm not there with you. I'm not following you where you're going. But, this is gonna sound so egotistical, but I'm not even sorry. I printed out the first chunk of book three, because I've gone back to working on it now, and I just finished reading through what I have so far. And I'm connected to that. I'm really happy with it. It's in better shape than I thought it was when I quit working on it. I was like, this is shit, I'm never going to write again, and I'm a failure. But then I read it now, and it's like, oh, I can fix this. Actually, I know exactly what I need to do, so that felt pretty good.

Lilly 6:55

that's wonderful.

Krystle 6:56

Yeah. Okay, good.

Lilly 6:59

I have done absolutely zero recreational reading. I did not even technically finish this book.

Sara 7:07

To be fair, we do read a book a week, so that's a lot of reading.

Krystle 7:12

It's pretty hard to fit recreational reading in amongst a schedule like that. What's the last one you read for the podcast that you really liked?

Lilly 7:20

We just did Learn to Howl, which was supposed to come out today, that I was camping instead of editing it,

Krystle 7:27

I don't know, oops,

Lilly 7:28

Jennifer Donahue, and That book, Sarah had read it before me, and I was like, oh, this is good. And I was like, okay, I believe you. And then I read and I was like, oh, wait, yeah, this is actually really good.

Krystle 7:39

goodness, yeah, I love that feeling of like going in, expecting it to be good and then it's even better. That's good stuff.

Lilly 7:47

Now, Cassiel's Servant. I've been asked many times what I'm reading recently, and I have to go on this, like, five minute explanation of, okay, so there's a series that started in like 2000 or something like that. And it was a series of like six books. And then this book is not part of that series, but it is a rewrite of the first first book.

Krystle 8:08

Was it really six books?

Lilly 8:10

I don't know. I think there's two trilogies or something.

Sara 8:12

It's nine books, actually. There's three trilogies. But they are related but independent trilogies, so they follow different characters. It helps to have read the previous books first, but I would say it's not strictly speaking necessary.

Krystle 8:31

There you go. The more you know. I didn't realize there'd been so many. But Sandra specifically has three.

Sara 8:37

Yes. She specifically has three. The second trilogy follows her adopted son, and I forget who the third trilogy follows. I think it's the daughter of the queen,

Krystle 8:53

Oh, interesting.

Sara 8:54

maybe? Royal I'm pretty sure she's related to that, like, royal line.

Lilly 9:00

Kushiel's Dart. We had some opinions about it. I think I've probably softened to it over the, uh, has it been a year, two years?

Krystle 9:08

Two years. Possibly three.

Lilly 9:10

I'm still not gonna read more of them.

Sara 9:13

I was gonna say, I think you're only softened to it because I'm not making you read it anymore.

Lilly 9:19

Maybe.

Krystle 9:22

I actually want to say the same thing. Like, I feel like I'm less offended. Like I was so in my feelings about it when I read it and I felt really bad after, but I do have to acknowledge that what she did was very good for that market. Like she definitely wrote an. Excellent dense political fantasy. And that's, that is a very specific market and a very specific skill. And all of my grumpy feelings were like, just me.

Lilly 9:49

I think for me, part of it was It wasn't a book for me, like you said, political fantasy, not my thing. Also, I think we've read more books from the early two thousands that I have now been able to compare to it.

Krystle 10:04

Oh, okay. So you're like, okay, she was doing the same sort of

Lilly 10:07

oh no, I I was gonna say that there, there were Sure. Some Edge Lords who thought they were doing something, Carey actually fucking did something. Doesn't mean I liked it, but she did it.

Krystle 10:22

I'm definitely in the same position as like, she went for something original. And probably blew the boots off of a lot of her contemporaries. And I do admire her for that because I feel like now that I'm a lot further down my own road, I feel like she definitely laid some flagstones of a path that I'm currently walking on. So for that, I, you know, have software for what she did.

Sara 10:46

was interesting. I think on Castiel's Servant, there was a blurb from Olivie Blake saying that like Cushiel's Dart was one of the forerunners of romanticy or something like that along those lines.

Krystle 10:59

That's an interesting take because actually it doesn't focus very much on her romantic life.

Sara 11:03

Yeah.

Lilly 11:04

There's very little romance at all.

Sara 11:05

Yeah, I was actually kind of taken aback by that too, because I don't consider Kushiel's dark romanticy, although there is a romantic

Krystle 11:16

remember that being one of the things that annoyed me, where it's like the sex scene that felt emotionally important in Kushiel's Dart being with Jocelyn. She didn't tell us anything! She skipped over it! I was like, I was like, that's the one I wanted to see! You've been building up for this for so many hundreds of thousands of words and then you skipped it! Yeah, so on that note, I was very pleased to circle around and get back to it finally, a whole last booklet.

Lilly 11:44

felt like this book was much more romance than Cushiel's Dart.

Krystle 11:50

this focuses so much on her, even when he's convinced himself that he hates her.

Lilly 11:56

I will say, I wouldn't call this decadent and dark, which is one of the quotes on the back of my

Krystle 12:01

Somebody called this dark? Okay.

Lilly 12:04

Decadent and dark. And I'm like, you're talking about Cushiel's Dart, not this book. Sorry.

Sara 12:12

someone calling this book decadent and dark is just someone who has not read anything dark ever.

Lilly 12:18

I think it's a description maybe for the world as a whole, and is being misapplied to this novel.

Sara 12:24

Yeah, I would believe that.

Krystle 12:25

which I think kind of pivots in the biggest question that I had for this book is like who is this for? Because tonally it's such a huge switch from Crucial Start. So like I don't know that it would even serve as like an entry point for new readers because if somebody read this and went I like how she focuses her storytelling and then pivoted into Crucial Start they would be like holy fuck this lady's weird. Like, it would just be such a hard left turn for somebody that, like,

Lilly 12:59

I don't think this is an entry. I don't think you could read this book if you haven't read Cushiel's Dart first.

Krystle 13:04

Yeah, that was the other thing.

Sara 13:05

Yes, I agree. I have thoughts on that. Before we get too far into the conversation, I think we should say that we are essentially treating this as a sequel to Kushiel's Dart, which means we're not going to try to avoid spoilers for Kushiel's Dart. And that in turn means that we're not going to have a spoiler section for this book because Kushiel's Dart spoils this book because this book is Kushiel's Dart from another character's perspective. And So, if you haven't read the series and don't want spoilers, this episode is maybe not for you.

Lilly 13:39

Go listen to Cushiel's Dart. That one I think we did a spoiler section on.

Sara 13:43

Yes, I think we did. But, Lily, I agree. I don't think this is an entry point into the series. I think that this book is specifically for existing fans of the series. I think there's a lot of information in it that is only half explained. Information and events that's only half explained. And,

Krystle 14:04

It can't recap, yeah.

Sara 14:06

it expects you to have read Kushiel's Dart, and it expects you to know Phaedra's perspective, which is much more comprehensive than Jocelyn's.

Krystle 14:15

Yeah, once he meets up with her there's a lot of scenes where as a reader you know important things are happening and you just do not get to see them. But then, because you've read Kushiel's Dirt, you know, Oh, okay, that's where Phaedra talked to this person. Oh, okay, that's where Phaedra learned this thing. And it's like, when you point it out it feels, yeah, pretty obvious that, you know, I don't know if you could navigate it without knowing what Vader is doing.

Sara 14:40

Yeah, I mean, like, the first bit of the book where Jocelyn is at his training? Sure, you can read that without any other context, but once he goes to the city, if you don't know what's going on, I think you're gonna be pretty lost.

Lilly 14:53

It also changes the tone immensely.

Krystle 14:57

Massively, yes.

Lilly 14:58

I enjoyed reading this book much more than Cushiel's Dart.

Sara 15:02

have to say that's probably not hard. Hehehe

Lilly 15:07

fantasy person. But I am neutral on that, in a way I am not neutral on political fantasy. Hehe.

Krystle 15:13

Yeah, I think any quibbles that I have with this book come down to my personal taste as a reader. So I would like to put that disclaimer on early on so I don't have to keep saying it. There are ways in which she chooses her focus that I don't care for. Or rather, there are ways in which she chooses her focus that I feel like the stuff that I wanted. Got left behind. For example, I learned very much that as a reader, I like to see things happen and draw my own conclusions, if that makes sense. So it's like in the first section of the book, when he's in his training, it's a very hands on story in that he is sitting with people, meeting them, he's being trained, he's having interactions and we are learning his world through him and because he's directly involved with everything that's going on. I felt like I really understood what was going on even when sometimes someone talks about politics and he goes, but I had no idea what he was talking about. I was like, yeah, buddy, you would be both. And so for that section of the book, I really loved it. And her skills as a writer are very clear all the way through. But then when it pivoted into once he met up with Phaedra, suddenly the book relied on a lot of things that he doesn't get to see. And the more of those things stacked up, the harder it was for me to be invested. And I want to be really clear that, like, I get that that's realistic for a soldier. Sometimes. In these situations, people have to respond to things that they don't see. So I don't fault her for making the choice. It's just for me as a reader, every time something happened off screen, I felt a little bit less connected. And it slowly whittled away my investment in how it was going.

Sara 17:08

I think that that really has to do with this not being for people who aren't fans of the first book. And like for myself, I love the original trilogy. I love the sequel trilogies. I really enjoyed this book. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, partly because it's not as politically focused, and I just really enjoy that more. But it was fascinating for me to read a book from the perspective of someone who reacts to things without actually knowing what's going on. Like it was just, it was a really interesting choice.

Krystle 17:45

part of it was well done. Yeah.

Lilly 17:47

I loved that all the politics were off screen, because I could not care less. And it was interesting to me that you said the book is relying on things happening off screen, because I would actually argue that this book is focused so much on Jocelyn as a character. So, yes, I agree. While there are world events going on that he is involved with, sort of tangentially, what we really care about is him growing as a person over time, because of various situations he's been put into.

Krystle 18:21

struggling to grow as a person.

Lilly 18:23

so hard.

Krystle 18:24

He's so useless. I had to keep reminding myself how young he is and it actually makes sense that he's that useless because sometimes stuff would come up and he would do the stupidest thing possible and be like, man, aren't you elite? Like get your shit together.

Sara 18:39

He is such a dum dum.

Krystle 18:41

But it tracks, it tracks for how young he is. I had to check myself and like tell myself to stop being so bitchy about

Lilly 18:50

in this book?

Krystle 18:51

Is he even that old?

Lilly 18:53

Well, he has his gap year.

Krystle 18:55

He has a gap year.

Lilly 18:56

After he graduates from Cassaline school,

Sara 18:59

Yeah, so Castling School is what, seven years? Which would mean he's seventeen at the end of that, so then he's eighteen after his gap year. So, nineteen when he goes off to guard Phaedra?

Krystle 19:11

Oh, so he was training other students for fully a year?

Lilly 19:16

at least a full year. It might have been longer than that.

Sara 19:19

I thought it was a year, yeah. Or about a year. But either way, I mean, 19 18, 19, 20, that's

Krystle 19:27

Stupid, stupid. Yeah, and the fact that he spent the time training rather than experiencing real world stuff does lend credence to this fact that he's totally incapable of handling any problems.

Sara 19:42

Yeah, like, his order is so isolated, both in terms, I think just geographically, like it sounds like they're kind of middle of nowhere, but also emotionally disconnected from the rest of the world.

Krystle 19:56

Yeah, they don't want the, the students patch or what's, what's the word fraternize with the locals too much. So it tracks, but then also, it also comes up with like a logic issue to me where it's like, if he's this useless on his first posting, why aren't they training these kids better if they expect them to be the lead? You know what I mean? Like,

Lilly 20:18

Well, I wonder if that's because of the nature of the post itself. I mean, if his job was just guard the king, there's not a lot of decision making there, right?

Krystle 20:29

Oh, I guess so. That does make sense. You're not meant to navigate politics.

Sara 20:34

I think he just gets really unlucky with his, or lucky depending on how you look at it, with his posting, in that it demands from him a whole set of skills that he's not had the opportunity to learn.

Krystle 20:46

She just laughed. This poor kid. And so as a character, I did really like him. Except, I did find the weird, insistent sex shaming to be tiresome. And so that, that was another part of why I wondered who it was for. Cause it's like, one side of the coin is that it's clearly not for newcomers. But the other side of the coin is that people who like Kushiel's Dart, it's for people who like Kushiel's Dart. Probably did enjoy that it was quite sex positive. And so to flip and read this, like, not only is it sex shaming, but the book constantly diminishes their expectations of women in general. And it was just like, man, I could have read like a hundred other books that had this tone. Why, why am I here?

Lilly 21:31

I do need to quibble that it is very clearly Jocelyn who has those opinions.

Krystle 21:38

Yes. Jocelyn and well, his, uh,

Lilly 21:41

whole order sucks. We can get behind that. But, like, so much of the book is about him realizing that that's stupid and bad. And so, yes, we do have to set up the foundation. And that took a very long time. But his growth wasn't very enjoyable for me.

Sara 21:58

He does grow and he does come to appreciate it, or he does come to,

Krystle 22:03

break his vows.

Sara 22:06

I was, I was going to say that sex is not inherently a bad thing.

Lilly 22:09

Well, he just comes out and says it. Hold on. You keep going. I'll find it

Sara 22:14

Even when he is more sex positive at the end of the book, he still kind of is kink shaming Phaedra for her BDSM tendencies.

Krystle 22:29

Yeah, and I guess that part made me wonder like I don't necessarily have issue with the concept of it as a starting point In a character growth. It's more for somebody who enjoyed Kushiel's Dart I had wondered if that would be tiresome. So for you who enjoyed Kushiel's Dart The tone switch of it being a shameful thing Did you find it tiresome too or is that just something that you're used to as a reader or?

Sara 22:56

I don't know if I would say that I found it tiresome, per se. I definitely found it odd. Like, I was expecting it, because obviously this is from Jocelyn's perspective, and we know from Cushiel's Dart what he is like about sex and where he comes from, so it wasn't a surprise. And it was very, very clearly his perspective, not the world around him.

Krystle 23:23

Yeah, for sure Yeah,

Sara 23:26

that clear. But it was There was a little bit of a disconnect between what I knew of the world and what I was seeing from his perspective. And so that was a little odd.

Lilly 23:45

Because if you just jumped into this book without any context, you might think that the book was saying, yeah, people who have sex are bad people and stupid and dumb and make bad decisions. But because you've read an entire novel or nine books, Setting up the fact that that is not the case.

Krystle 24:06

and Jocelyn's order is just like excessive over the top of this shit. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess when you have a big enough platform, you absolutely can write specifically to your platform and maybe in a way like my own writer brain of how do you market something like this was getting in my way.

Lilly 24:28

I pulled out a quote on page 176, which, to be fair, could be a whole ass book. But in this case, it's page 176 out of 500. So we're not even halfway through. And this book just comes out and says it on the page. There are disadvantages to being raised among boys and men whose worth is measured by their fighting skills. We're not taught to recognize different kinds of strength, nor that the deadliest weapons are not necessarily made of steel. So,

Krystle 25:00

What was that? Do you remember what the context for that was? Like where, cause I feel like I remember that, but then also

Lilly 25:07

so this is after Delaunay has died, and he has realized how in the shit Phaedra has been,

Krystle 25:16

And he missed, Jocelyn specifically missed so much of it.

Lilly 25:20

yeah. But Phaedra knew what was going on, and he's like, Oh shit, she's competent, I have fucked up. And then he also echoes his buddy Selwyn earlier on, is talking about politics and talking about Melisande, and is like,

Krystle 25:34

She's just a woman. Yeah. That came up a couple times.

Lilly 25:37

I doubt she's a serious player in the game. After all, she's just a woman. Jocelyn meditates on that quite a bit.

Krystle 25:45

And it was pretty quickly that actually, that was a stupid thing to say.

Sara 25:50

Again, it's wild for people who have read Kushiel's Dart. And the other thing, I think this is basically just going to be a long podcast essay on why this is not an introductory book to the world.

Lilly 26:03

You can only go that far if you have such an established world to play

Sara 26:07

Yeah, but I was going to say the interesting thing to me is how kind of comparatively minor Melisande is in this book. Like, we meet her, I think, twice. She's mentioned briefly a couple of times, a handful of times. But she doesn't actually have a huge presence in the book. On page,

Krystle 26:29

No, not at all.

Sara 26:30

and then you compare that to Cushiel's Dart and just the, the,

Krystle 26:35

She very much drives that, that book. Yeah.

Sara 26:38

the different character focuses and who gets the page time. It makes very much sense for the two characters of Phaedra and Jocelyn, but it's very different.

Krystle 26:51

Which, I mean, to her credit, is a skill. The skill of knowing that she can't just tell the audience what she wants them to know, because Jocelyn wouldn't know that. I have to applaud how consistent she is with her own character building. Because you're right, and actually I don't think I even noticed what you just pointed out because I remember Melisandre so clearly from Kushiel's start. Even, I think it was three years ago, guys. Like,

Lilly 27:20

Everything is one or more years, and I just never specify.

Sara 27:24

I will look it up on our calendar.

Lilly 27:26

been a while, yeah.

Krystle 27:27

Yeah, and so, like, even, I remember specifically, like, where I was in time and space the first time this book mentions Melisandre, and Selwyn saying her name and, like, dismissing her, and I was like, little does he know. This whole story, and I don't think I even realized that I was doing that. Like, how much I was filling in those gaps as somebody who's read Kushiel's Dark. So kudos to you for noticing, but also, yeah, yeah, you're right. If somebody didn't know that name, I don't know if the book would even work for them as a cohesive story.

Sara 28:03

So we recorded our Kushiel's Dart episode March 12th,

Krystle 28:08

Okay, so two years ago.

Lilly 28:10

Two ish, yeah.

Krystle 28:11

Two and change.

Sara 28:12

Two and a quarter.

Krystle 28:13

I'm surprised I remember it as clearly, which, I mean, circles back to like an author thing where people don't have to love your book, but if you live in their head, run free, you've done something right.

Lilly 28:24

Yeah. Absolutely.

Krystle 28:26

I don't remember what else I read two ish years ago, to tell you the truth.

Lilly 28:31

Well, I think what we're circling around is that this book just simply isn't a standalone.

Krystle 28:37

Yeah.

Lilly 28:38

Like, it's not. If you have nine novels, or even just one, ahead of time establishing this very sex positive society, you can take the risk. Of going, like, really far in the other direction for 200 pages. Because you've built up that trust with your reader by then.

Sara 28:58

And I think, to your point, Krystal, about how does one market this, I think one markets this by knowing that you have a huge fanbase for the original trilogy, which Jacqueline Carey does, and so I feel like this is a passion project that she was able to do because she is this big name author, and so she doesn't necessarily need to market it to new people.

Lilly 29:26

I mean, that's the same thing with any sequel, right? You don't expect someone to read a sequel who hasn't read the first book.

Krystle 29:32

Yes, I guess, to me, what tripped me up is not thinking of it as a series continuing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lilly 29:41

Well, because it's not continuity in time, right? It goes back in time, which feels like it should be, Okay, then this is also a beginning.

Krystle 29:49

Yeah, but it's not. I think you're right in that case where you wouldn't expect somebody to pick up a book two without marketing book one at them and I think this book kind of falls into that same zone of it serves as new content for people who did love the first trilogy at least.

Sara 30:07

And I think, like, you can look at fanfiction, right, and there's plenty of fanfiction that's the original work just regurgitated from someone else's perspective, or from a different character's perspective, and there's a big readership for that, an appeal for that. And I think that that's what this is, it's just done by the author, it's not fanfiction.

Krystle 30:30

Yeah, yeah, but it's just like a chance to go back to the world that you love so much and experience something new.

Lilly 30:37

And, okay, not devil's advocate exactly, but from my perspective, someone who did read Cushiel's Dart, because it's a big name fantasy book and it's worth to take a risk on those, even if you don't think it's necessarily for you, because the tone and genre of this was so different, I ended up liking it quite a bit more. I don't think I would read Cushiel's Dart just to read this book, but I did read Cushiel's Dart. I didn't love it, but this book is different enough that it was worth a second try. In the way that the second book in the Kushiel's Dart series is not.

Sara 31:12

For you.

Lilly 31:13

For me!

Krystle 31:14

Yeah, and certainly any of the problems that I have that I'll gripe about is simply taste rather than skill. Because definitely she is a very good writer. Like, her world building is incredible.

Lilly 31:28

And I loved that we focused on one character in this. Like, this was so much more of a personal story than Cushiel Start was, which is absolutely my jam. There's the, like, pining. There's angst and pining in this book that we do not get in Cushiel Start.

Krystle 31:46

Yeah, I really liked, I really liked Jocelyn. And I remember, I seem to remember I really liked him having read Kushiel's Dart as well. Because that's why I agreed to this, I think.

Sara 31:57

It wasn't because you both love me very much.

Lilly 32:01

That, 90 percent that.

Krystle 32:04

I wouldn't have done it if it weren't for an opportunity to come talk to you, but I think because I liked Jocelyn in the first one, I did really enjoy it. I could have done an entire book about his training and been perfectly happy, and then he goes off to meet Phaedra, and the book ends, and then you have to read Crucial Start, you know what I mean? Like, I would have taken this as a full prequel and been very happy. I thought the way that his training did the heavy lifting of his world building was really well done and I feel like mentally I was taking some notes and coming back to it after reading kind of adjacent to the genre for a long time, coming back to it and reading that first section, I was like, Oh man, I miss, I miss this genre. I'm really digging this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to read some more stuff like this.

Sara 32:56

His training montage, if you can call it a training montage, the, you know, first 170 pages, really reminded me of the very first half of Inda by Sherwood Smith.

Lilly 33:08

said the same thing! Well, that and Master in Command.

Sara 33:12

I have not read

Lilly 33:12

Stranger, sorry, Stranger to

Sara 33:14

Stranger Stranger To Command, yes.

Lilly 33:17

Completely different book.

Sara 33:19

Very different books. Stranger To Command, also by Sherwin Smith.

Lilly 33:23

He even does the, like,

Sara 33:25

The War Games!

Lilly 33:26

the war games! Yeah! I was like, this is just Indah in a different world. Not just. I enjoyed it. I think because I liked Indah, I got some, like, weird backlash nostalgia for it.

Sara 33:40

Residual good feelings.

Krystle 33:43

I'm trying to think if I, if it made me think of anything, I didn't think of anything specific, but totally and the focus of it and his training and his growing up, it did have a very nostalgic, this is why I really love this genre vibe to it that I really, I sunk into it really fast. And like, people were so surprised that I was enjoying it, right? Because it's like, oh, this is the plot twist. I did that. I that. But, but even, you know, whatever I didn't like about Kushiel's art that was not a skill issue on her part, it was, it was a big problem. It's not you, it's me.

Sara 34:21

Well, I mean, there can be really good books that you just don't vibe with.

Krystle 34:25

Yeah.

Sara 34:26

And there's no shame in that. That's, that's just what being a reader and being an individual is all about. Like we all have different tastes.

Lilly 34:34

I did. Okay, I've, I've spent several minutes now justifying why it's chill that Jocelyn and the Casselines are so repressed and big ol prudes.

Krystle 34:46

Oh, I did get tired of thinking about it though. Like,

Lilly 34:50

But now let's complain about it. The book flips it. It has to spend that much time creating his belief so that when it breaks, it's more meaningful.

Krystle 35:03

I agree, but also, that issue was actually what made it the hardest for me to figure out what, who it was for. Because the other book is such the opposite, that I found it, Jarring to have to listen to it over and over and over again to an extent that it like it was starting to make Me uncomfortable. It was just like okay. I get it. Like I do get it. You don't actually have to repeat this. I got it I'm, okay. I'm doing good, and I don't know Again, this is a readership thing. Like I, I think it could just be me where I'm just passed through the stage in my life where I need books to tell me that this is how some people think. And it's a character thing. You know what I mean? But it's not even an unusual thing to think about people. So it like, it doesn't even feel risky. It's just like, if I wanted to hear this about me, I could have, you know, Turn the news on You know what I mean?

Lilly 36:01

Yeah.

Krystle 36:01

So that part of it was the biggest impediment to me really enjoying it once he pivoted into knowing ra.'cause it wasn't as strong when he was alone at the um, the training. Yeah.

Lilly 36:15

Well, that would have been weird if he just sat there in a training full of other men going, Women suck, huh?

Krystle 36:22

How dare.

Sara 36:25

I really enjoyed, actually, and I don't think this is something that we get in the original books. Although, I should clarify that, yes, we read Kushiel's Dart in 2022, but I haven't read any of the others for a very long time. And I've read a lot of books since then. But so I don't think that we get in the series as has been written previously, Jocelyn's realization or, and not, maybe not realizations. Maybe that's the wrong word, but his questioning whether Cassiel and Elua were just roommates. They were, they were just roommates.

Krystle 37:08

They were just really good buds. Yeah,

Sara 37:12

like, I really liked that and the comparison with how he starts out, where he's like, yeah, they're just buds.

Lilly 37:21

Well, I, he doesn't quite get there in this book, or maybe he does. I didn't read the last 50 pages because I couldn't bring myself to care.

Sara 37:29

I mean, he does, for my statement, he does.

Lilly 37:31

no, no, no, this is what I'm about to say. Which is, he insists that no Casseline has ever broken their oath of chastity.

Krystle 37:41

right, buddy.

Lilly 37:42

And I'm like, oh, sweet child. You just mean none of them have been exposed for it.

Krystle 37:50

The ones that get caught get yeeted out of the program and the rest of them go on and live their lives. Justice for Selwyn. Can we pivot into talking about how great Selwyn is?

Lilly 38:01

Except for the whole women are meaningless thing.

Krystle 38:05

Well, yeah, but we stan an unhinged, wealthed lunatic. Now, I don't know,

Sara 38:11

I don't think he's actually Welsh, because the geography doesn't match up.

Krystle 38:16

the accent, maybe this is a, this is a audiobook versus physical reader split, but the accent that the narrator gives him is so incredibly on the nose, and then the way his name

Lilly 38:30

The dangelines are all French

Sara 38:32

Yeah, so he can't be Welsh, because he comes from the Camelan border, which borders Scaldi, or Scaldi, or whatever the actual country name is. And also, they can't, until the master of the streets. Or the black boar rules in Alba or whatever, they can't cross the straits. They can't go

Krystle 38:54

I feel

Sara 38:55

from Alba to, to, to Terre d'Ange. So he can't be Welsh. I'm sorry.

Krystle 39:04

so mad now. She's well. God damn it. I'm so mad now. But like, for real, now I don't understand why they gave him a different accent. So let's

Sara 39:15

He could be because there's a region in France that is Celtic. So he could be, you know, that kind of semi Welsh.

Krystle 39:24

mad now.

Sara 39:24

French Welsh.

Krystle 39:27

I'm breaking up with this book officially over Selim.

Lilly 39:31

It was weird how much of this book, this world, is a direct metaphor to Earth.

Krystle 39:37

No, I'm, I'm still, I'm still on sale and I'm

Lilly 39:40

Yeah, no, okay.

Krystle 39:41

on. Because it was one of the things I love so much about him, because he arrives in the book with a very heavily distinctly Welsh accent. And he's so fucking on himself that I was like, that one, that one's mine. I love him, I'm gonna, like, I'm, I'm 100 percent invested in this character. And I feel like the way he was handled as a character was a really good symptom of the larger disconnect between me and the author and our interests, because I was so invested in Selwyn that I really thought he was going to be more important. And he's given such an important moment, too. And then he just dies. And that's just it. And it's like, what? And it was so jarring.

Lilly 40:25

He's so important because, like, him breaking his oath is part of, like, what Jocelyn keeps coming back to over and over again.

Krystle 40:36

Repeated breakneck results because he's a slut and that's why I love him so much.

Lilly 40:42

And so seeing someone choose to live their life that way, I think was very important for Jocelyn. He just is dead half the time.

Sara 40:49

I read this book after Crystal had started reading it. And Crystal, you'd posted comments in a Discord server that we're both in.

Krystle 40:57

I love him?

Sara 40:58

And I'd followed along with them, but not really, like, read them closely because I hadn't read the book and I didn't want too many spoilers. Although, obviously, the whole book is spoilered because I've read Kushiel's Dart. Although, obviously, the whole

Krystle 41:08

Yeah.

Sara 41:08

spoiled because I've read Kushiel's Dart. And so, you were such a Selwyn Stan, that when I got to the point where he died, I was like, what?

Krystle 41:20

me too, actually.

Sara 41:21

I thought that he was important!

Krystle 41:24

Yeah, me too, cause see,

Lilly 41:26

He is important, you plot driven monsters! This is a character study and he's so important.

Sara 41:33

He is, he is important, you're right, but I thought he was going to be important in an alive way, not important in a dead way.

Krystle 41:40

well, okay, so here's my emotional journey that happened. He arrived and I was like, yes, this bitch is mine. And then after a couple of chapters I was like, oh, he's stupid. He's going to get himself killed. And then, and then he has that line, now, we tried to find it, but we couldn't find it, so I'm now a little bit unclear on where the line happens, but there's a point, either immediately before he's found out as being a slut, or immediately after, where he and Jocelyn have a, like a mock battle. And Jocelyn focuses on him a lot because he is the only one who's martially equivalent to him. Like they are kind of the best of their student group and they also form a bond. So there's just this plot beat where we know that Selwyn's important. And Selwyn has this line where he's beaten Jocelyn. Jocelyn always beats Selwyn in the official rules. Ring, but then Selwin always beats Jocelyn when they're like, play fighting outside. And Selwin has this line that says, The reason I always beat you is because you're too afraid to get hurt. And I'm not, or something to that effect. And unless you're able to let go of that fear, you'll never be a good warrior. And it was such a profound moment that I was like, This little bitch, this little bitch is going to get kicked out of the Castellan Brotherhood. He's going to go off, he's going to make trouble in the world, and he's going to get hooked into the big politics that are going on. And then he's going to get circled back and we're going to see him again, and Jocelyn is going to be forced to kill him. Because of this one line and this is the arc of the story that I wrote in my head And I was like i'm gonna be so sad and be so mad when someone dies but That masochistic reader in me was like yes, give me the page I was so ready

Sara 43:41

I think I found the quote, by the way. And I found it by searching fight me and not Selwyn. Which was a much, a much better choice. So I believe, and you'll have to tell me if I'm wrong about this, but I believe what you're thinking about is, you don't fight fair, I complained once when he pulled off an unexpected counter strike that didn't exist in the Kasseline forms. There's no such thing as fair in a real fight, he retorted. Only winning or dying. And even if we do live to have a chance to defend a ward, it's not going to be against another brother. The Brotherhood would terminate every single contract out there before they'd allow that to happen. You're never going to draw a sword against another Kasseline and Ernest Jocelyn. Only an opponent with different training, unexpected moves. I'm doing you a favor.

Krystle 44:25

Yeah, yeah, that was it. That was the moment where it's like he's going to fight Selwyn and that's going to be the big climax of the book. And so I was so invested in Selwyn, I was like, I'm so ready to hurt this bad and watch Jocelyn kill him. And then Selwyn just kind of quietly dies off scene and that was where I was like, oh, that sucks.

Sara 44:44

It's interesting to hear you say that you thought that was going to be the big climax of the book, because

Krystle 44:49

couldn't remember! I couldn't remember what the f the start was.

Sara 44:54

Coming from a perspective of, I always knew that it was basically a one to one replication of Kushiel's, or almost a one to one replication of Kushiel's Dart, but from Jocelyn's perspective. Like, I was fairly sure that I knew which plot beats were going to be there. And indeed, I was right, because it's everything from Kushiel's Dart, but in Jocelyn's perspective. So I wasn't expecting there to be something unexpected like that.

Krystle 45:21

Well, I think where I fell apart was that I didn't remember Kushiel's Dart beat for beat until Jocelyn meets Phaedra and then every beat he hits he's like, Oh, yes. Okay. I remember this now. And then, oh, yes, yes, yes. Okay. I remember that. And so I didn't know how much I remembered until I saw it. And then, so in the first bit of the book, I was trying to read context cues of like, okay, what's going to be important. How does crucial start go again? I don't remember. You know what I mean? And so I was like, I was searching really desperately for stuff. And then when Selwyn had that big important line, I was like, aha, I figured it out, I did not figure it out. And I found that to be. You know, I was really heartbroken about it, but then at the same time, I was like, oh, this is a lesson that I could learn about reader expectations. And I, again, I had to play devil's advocate with myself and acknowledge that Selwyn's death was very true to life for a soldier, in that sometimes they just find out. One day that somebody they cared about had died and they didn't get to see it. As a reader, when I'm really invested in characters, I want to see what happens to them and it's just not a thing I can, I can get over very easily. And I was so invested in him and God damn it. He was well through the audio book,

Sara 46:45

He can be Welsh in the audiobooks, but he's definitely not Welsh in the actual book.

Lilly 46:50

So the Casolines are, like, rude prudes, I would say. They're not just prudes, they're rude prudes. But the Dangeline Society is very We've been using the word sex positive, which I think is mostly correct.

Krystle 47:06

sex accepting.

Lilly 47:07

Yeah, there's this whole thing where, like, the greatest sin is to rape someone. And, like, that's, that's the thing that they're, like, absolutely not, never. And that's why the Scaldy are so bad, because they rape people. And I'm, like, motherfuckers.

Krystle 47:21

was that, retcon? Because I actually don't remember that being a hill that the first book died on.

Sara 47:26

It's not as much of a hill that the first book dies on, but it's definitely there. The focus on consent is definitely there.

Krystle 47:36

I found that once they got in with the Skuldies, that's actually where the book lost me. Because I felt like they were drawing lines that actually don't exist in the real world. Culture bad, and our culture good. And I think you were loading up to say the same thing, Lily, where it's like, honey, no, that's not actually how the real world works.

Lilly 47:57

So this is a fantasy world. And I could say maybe they wanted me to suspend disbelief. And indeed, in this society, this fake society, that is how it works.

Krystle 48:08

That or is so naive

Lilly 48:11

Yeah. But he's not the only one. We see other characters say, like, How dare you accuse me of that? That's the worst possible thing. So, like, we see that around. But it's like the only type of sexual assault that exists is violently being slung over someone's shoulder and carried away. Like, they do not address power imbalances. They do not address coercion. It, like, just doesn't exist.

Krystle 48:38

or grooming children to be prostitutes.

Lilly 48:41

that was what, like, oh my god.

Sara 48:43

I do think that that is a little bit of a retcon, like, Jocelyn's attitude towards that, specifically. Because he has a couple of comments about, or the book has a couple of comments about, like, how the children of the Night Court totally get to choose and they don't have actual sex until they're of age. And I'm like, you are, you are walking back what you wrote in Kushiel's Dart.

Krystle 49:09

She watched sex acts as an underage person in S if I remember. So like,

Sara 49:16

That, that is definitely trying to retcon things that can't really be retconned.

Lilly 49:22

Which is kind of a bummer, because there could have been a really interesting conversation around, like, what does it mean to consent.

Krystle 49:28

Yeah. I agree.

Lilly 49:29

But this book is just like, nope.

Krystle 49:31

But Jocelyn wouldn't have been capable of

Sara 49:33

Yes, that was just what I was gonna say.

Lilly 49:35

No, no, no. The world overall, though. This world could have explored that. But instead it's, the only rape that exists is violence by strangers.

Sara 49:44

also, because this book is such a character driven novel, I don't think it could have done it because Jocelyn couldn't have done it.

Lilly 49:52

This book couldn't have done it. But this is not the first time that this problem has Unless you're saying that, like, book nine does explore that. I feel like it doesn't.

Sara 50:02

Genuinely, I can't make a statement either way because it's been like 15 years since I've read anything past book one. So,

Lilly 50:11

That's fair. The vibe I get is more like, Carrie kind of wants to hand wave away that as an issue entirely. Which I get. Not wanting to tackle that in your fantasy book about fun sex stuff. But also, I don't know. But I don't think that was like, really handled well.

Sara 50:29

no, I would, I would agree. I mean, and for all that I love these books, they're not, they're not without their issues.

Krystle 50:36

yeah, I feel like you were gonna mention about how like, very directly analogous it is to Christianity and specifically France, and I feel like in a way that route. makes the tonal dissonance louder because we know, like if we're drawing a direct analogy to our history, we know we weren't so strict about consent at that time. So if that's the only thing that changes, it actually stands out more. rather than if we were off into a totally different fantasy and everything was different and that thing is also different and and so it makes it stand out more to me when other things are so clearly evocative of of our world

Lilly 51:22

Yeah, it's like what what if it's the world history, but sex?

Krystle 51:30

which arguably is just world history

Lilly 51:33

Well, yeah, but but magic sex. How's

Krystle 51:36

yeah magic sex yeah i think i interrupted you when you were gonna spiel about how christian the book is

Lilly 51:43

Oh, I was just gonna talk about how it's a one to one analogy of earth and including Christianity in that I don't like it and I can't tell if that's just me being salty about Kushiel's Dart, or if that's like a cool way to do fantasy. I don't know where I land on that. I didn't love it, but that might have been

Sara 52:01

I think it's you being salty about Kushiel's dart and you also being not a religious person whatsoever.

Lilly 52:07

Well, I'm also talking about all of the one to one countries though, not just Christianity. Like, it's France and then that's like the Norse country.

Sara 52:16

Yeah, but I think they go hand in hand.

Krystle 52:18

I think that is normal for subfantasy. Subfantasy definitely does that.

Sara 52:24

Like, I don't think it's cool or not cool, I think it just is. It's a way of doing fantasy. And you either like it or you don't.

Lilly 52:32

and I think maybe in a different book I would like it more, but I might have just been bringing some disgruntlement to it.

Krystle 52:39

found that the direct analogies actually made the weird stuff stand out harder, whereas if there had been some layers of like, over the analogies and like, for example, every time they described hyacinths as his brown skin, I was like, I got it. I did actually get that the first seven times you mentioned it. He's Arab or Persian or something. I did get that. You don't have to keep telling me that he's brown. And so that stuff started to feel really weird. And there's a point where the people that save them when they're running from the scouts at the edge of the forest, the family, They use the word haram, which I remember I was actually, cause I was listening to the audio and I was walking down the street and I heard, you know, the, the short string of fantasy jargon and then haram. I'm like, Oh, a Muslim word. That's a choice. But then she actually seems to be pivoting them into being kind of Jewish. Like I can't, I can't figure out what the direct analogy is.

Lilly 53:41

they're travelers.

Sara 53:42

They're, they're definitely Jewish. So the Tsingano or the Tsingani are the Romani people, basically. So that's what Hyacinth is.

Krystle 53:52

No, it wasn't. It wasn't Hyacinth that

Sara 53:54

Right, but I'm saying the family, the Yeshuites are Jews.

Krystle 53:59

yeah, so, but she, she seems to have used the word haram as a way to describe Jocelyn and Phaedra being Gentiles, which is a choice that I had some feelings about, and I'm not really sure why. And I can't remember if it was in Kushiel's Dart 2. Because that, like I said, that's a very specific word to be using for actually a totally different religion and culture than the word comes from, so it was just And the fact that the analogies had been drawn so directly made it stand out more, like it could have been a mistake if they weren't coded any specific way, if that makes sense. But the fact that then it didn't fit, it was like,

Sara 54:39

She didn't do her research.

Krystle 54:41

yeah, why, why do we go with that off? That's kind of a loaded word. Like that's, that's a big word. Like, why did we go there? So I found the direct analogy actually worked against the world building at times.

Lilly 54:54

I found it distracting. Every time he rode his horse named Aristotle, I was like, Really?

Sara 55:03

I genuinely don't remember his horse's name, so, it did not register for me.

Lilly 55:11

Oh, have you never heard of Aristotle? Oh, don't worry, we'll talk about this after the podcast.

Krystle 55:16

we can tell you all about.

Sara 55:17

The horse, right? That's Jocelyn's horse.

Krystle 55:23

I would like to circle around and say, like, there were some things that I did genuinely very much enjoy, and for example, one of the things that I did very much enjoy was the first section where it was at his training, but then there were also some of the beats that landed. In the Phaedra story, that Phaedra skips over almost entirely in Kushiel's Dart because it's just, it's just not in their character to notice these details or something. But then we get to see them again through Jocelyn's point of view, like fight scenes, like specifically that the fight scene in the snow after they've escaped, but the first time they've been like kind of captured by their pursuers. In Kushiel's Dart that lasted only about a page, and I was so angry.

Sara 56:07

and the focus there is on her killing Harold the Beardless.

Krystle 56:11

Yeah, and it made sense for her, and that's why I have to acknowledge, I have to like backtrack and take back some of the, the bitchy things I said about the first book, where actually the things that I didn't like were proof of her skill, because it made sense for Phaedra to focus on that. So now, reading this book, and going through those beats with Jocelyn, who focused on the things that I wanted to see, I was like, yes! This is so good! Like, her fight scenes are brilliant, and fight scenes that chaotic are really hard to pull off, so I have to acknowledge that she did some of those things really well. The fight scenes were great, and the, the scene with him and Phaedra, the first time that they have sex, it was like, Yes, this is what I wanted to see in the other book instead of, I won't tell you the details, like, bitch, I wanted those goddamn details. And so it was really cool to see those gaps filled in. And I feel like if you could have gone back in time and grafted the two books together, I would've enjoyed it more.

Sara 57:14

would have been a monster book.

Krystle 57:15

It would've been, that is true. Maybe it would've killed me. And Lily, maybe I take that back.

Lilly 57:21

it's interesting. The word romance has come up a couple of times in our conversation. And like, so first of all, I think we can all agree, capital R romance, the genre romance, has nothing to do with either of these books.

Sara 57:35

Yes.

Krystle 57:36

No. Yeah, no. There's sex in it. That's the only

Lilly 57:40

Well, I actually found this book much more romantic than Kushiel's Dart because it's so much more intimate and there's so much longing and pining and angst.

Krystle 57:50

Yeah.

Lilly 57:51

So even though there's much less sex,

Krystle 57:53

And it's very much the dissolution of Jocelyn's stance of sex bad, I hate this person. Like, it was, like, it bordered on an enemies to lovers with how much he hates her at some points in that book in a way that you wouldn't have gotten from Kushiel's dark because she's kind of attracted to everybody. Which, no shade, I can relate. But,

Lilly 58:16

I did feel like their relationship came entirely out of left field in Kushiel's Dart. I remember being like, what the fuck is this?

Krystle 58:24

yeah, it was just another It was another of her big important relationships in her life, which tracked for her, but for him, it was the important relationship in his life.

Sara 58:36

I mean, Phaedra is definitely Pauly, and he's not.

Krystle 58:40

Yeah,

Lilly 58:42

struggles with. But like, in Kushiel's Dart, it's just like, oh wow, another person is so obsessed with her, they can't help but have sex with her, okay. Whereas in this, it's actually meaningful.

Krystle 58:55

Yeah, I agree. I agree with that.

Lilly 58:57

There was a question, was it before we started recording? Why are there so many chased borders of soldiers?

Krystle 59:04

Oh yeah, that was

Lilly 59:05

And what's up with that? Yeah.

Krystle 59:07

Yeah.

Sara 59:07

we started recording.

Krystle 59:09

Yeah, when they doubled down so hard on why it was so important for him to be celibate, like, I found it really jarring because I actually, I can't figure out other than because Christianity, I guess, I couldn't figure out what it added to his training.

Sara 59:25

But I think that's kind of a little bit the point. Like, he and Selwyn ask that question, and they don't actually get a good answer.

Krystle 59:34

Except it's such a common trope in fantasy that I found my annoyance was less specifically with this one book and more with the trope at large. Like, why are the elite warriors all in celibate? Like, that's just such a weird Oh, but I

Lilly 59:51

get an angle for it. I'm not arguing for it, but I think I see their logic in if someone has other priorities, they might not put their ward first. Now, that's really reductive with human relationships. So it doesn't hold water, but I can see the dumbass going, Oh, well, if he wants to have sex with someone else, then he might save their life instead.

Sara 1:00:20

again, I think that's kind of, we're supposed to think, yeah, this is a stupid reason

Lilly 1:00:26

Yeah.

Sara 1:00:26

the castling order. Like, I think that is genuinely the point. I

Lilly 1:00:30

But there is a stupid reason, instead of just no reason.

Sara 1:00:33

Yeah, and I can't speak to why it's a popular trope, but I do think the whole point of, or not the whole point, but one of the points that Carrie is making in these books is that yeah, it's a stupid trope.

Krystle 1:00:51

That makes it such a funny thing about how aggressively Christian his point of view is, where at the one hand like she's very clearly familiar, but on the other hand, she's like, this is the way right? Your old you people need to stop it. So it's like, it's funny where it's so Christian that. I could feel it, and it made me uncomfortable at points, but on the other, the flip side of it, it's so sex driven that it would also make hardcore Christianity uncomfortable, so that was a really interesting storytelling angle.

Lilly 1:01:26

I had a similar experience. I forgot how Christian their religion is. And I was like, okay, yes, this is Earth, okay, got it, got it. But then, thinking of like, how very much contemporary Christianity would not want to be associated with this. Yeah, it was kind of delightful.

Krystle 1:01:48

it does, it definitely has that flavor of person raised Christian grapples with sexuality in a way that eventually I've softened to the whole dance that the book makes, but at first it was really hard to listen to how aggressively over it he was and I was like, yeah, I got it, I got it, buddy, I got it.

Lilly 1:02:10

Well, and if you didn't know where this book was going, I don't think you could make it through those first hundred pages.

Krystle 1:02:15

Yeah,

Sara 1:02:16

I mean, again, coming down to our argument, this book is not a standalone. It's, it's not an introductory point to the series.

Krystle 1:02:24

I don't think it is. Yeah, you're right. So there we go. We've solved it. It's

Lilly 1:02:29

I

Krystle 1:02:29

It's not a standalone read crucial start first more importantly enjoy crucial start first And then you can circle back and you'll also enjoy it guess you'll serve him

Sara 1:02:38

Or you could hate it, and you still, I mean, both of you still kind of enjoyed this book, so.

Lilly 1:02:45

enjoyed this book more than Cushiel's Dart, but I couldn't have read this book without Cushiel's Dart. Did I like this book enough that it made Cushiel's Dart worth it? I don't think so.

Krystle 1:02:56

Sarah's worth it.

Lilly 1:02:57

Sarah's worth it.

Krystle 1:02:59

There is And

Sara 1:03:00

I appreciate that. I definitely like Kushiel's Dart more, just because it focuses on things that I'm more interested in. If she came out with books two and three that follow Jocelyn's perspective from Kushiel's Dart, that would be great. two and three. I would read those. I wouldn't make you talk about them on the podcast, so don't worry.

Lilly 1:03:22

Ooh, what if we did you read the Cushiel's Dart ones and then we read the Jocelyn's version?

Sara 1:03:29

Oh, that would be fascinating.

Krystle 1:03:32

and make one good book that we both enjoyed

Sara 1:03:35

I'm, I'm actually here for that if she decides to continue on Jocelyn's perspective. I don't know if she will, she hasn't said.

Lilly 1:03:43

I would do that. I would, I would sign on for that.

Sara 1:03:46

I'm glad that you didn't hate it as much as you both hated Gushiel Start. I was a little concerned.

Krystle 1:03:56

I'm really surprised that you were willing to take the chance on us for a second round of torture. But yeah, I feel like generally, this stance of acknowledging what the book is doing, because I won't say that she did anything badly. She did what she wanted to do very well. It's just that me as a reader, my focus lies differently. And so it didn't, well, I, I wrote a whole ass extra book that she didn't even write in my head of Selwyn circling back and there being this big epic showdown and I'm gonna go write that book now I guess, but I think Castle of Servant taught me a lot about myself as a reader and what I like in books because Having so much stuff happen outside of Jocelyn's circle taught me exactly what it is I like in books that I, that I love so much. And it also teaches, you know, you as a, as a reader to be able to talk about why something didn't work for you. It's not that it was a bad book, it's just that my focus is not aligned with hers.

Lilly 1:05:03

Some of the plot holes around consent makes it bad. For Cushiel's Dart, like, not everything we complained about is a matter of taste.

Sara 1:05:13

I'm not gonna say it makes it bad, but I will agree that there are some plot holes around

Krystle 1:05:19

It makes it uncomfortable. Yeah.

Lilly 1:05:21

a genuine complaint about quality. I'm not saying it made the whole book bad, I'm saying that that was not a skill thing. Oh, she did it really good. She just did something different. Like, no, that,

Sara 1:05:31

that's, yes, that's, that's not a skill thing.

Krystle 1:05:34

I forgot about that part, but you are right about that.

Lilly 1:05:37

And also some of the prose was meh in Kushiel's Dart. Cassiel's Servant was better.

Sara 1:05:41

No, I think, I think that is a matter of taste.

Krystle 1:05:43

Specifically how she expresses beauty really killed me in Kushiel's Dart where it's like, she's just so beautiful and elegant and dainty for like several hundred words over and over again. That really hurt me on a reader level of like, I can't fucking do this. I'm like, I, I can't hear about one more beautiful person. Can we just, can we just accept on premise that everyone is stunningly gorgeous and get on with the book?

Sara 1:06:10

I think that was a early 2000s, just, like, how things happened in

Krystle 1:06:16

Yeah.

Lilly 1:06:17

But that doesn't make it good though. You're just saying it's not her fault.

Sara 1:06:20

Yeah, but

Lilly 1:06:21

It can still be bad and not her fault.

Sara 1:06:23

If that is your complaint about the prose, I'll grant it to you, but I don't think that was your complaint about the

Lilly 1:06:29

That wasn't my complaint,

Sara 1:06:30

Yes. So, Crystal, I'm agreeing with you, I'm not.

Krystle 1:06:34

Yes.

Lilly 1:06:36

Well, Crystal, thank you so much for joining us. What have you got going on? What can listeners be excited for?

Krystle 1:06:45

What have I got going on? Well, we're still pretty consistent over at The Driven Bucket. Me and Fletcher interviewing poor innocent souls and making them uncomfortable for 25 give or take minutes. And then probably by the time this episode is out, I'm headed over to Worldcon and I'll be recording some content over there with all of the people.

Sara 1:07:06

not gonna be because this episode comes out next week. Worldcon is not quite that soon.

Krystle 1:07:12

okay. It's nearly soon, so by the time this episode comes out, I'll be freaking out about how much I still have to do before I go to Worldcon.

Sara 1:07:21

Yes.

Krystle 1:07:23

Yeah, so that's kind of sucking up all of my attention at the moment, and that's probably why I can't read anything.

Sara 1:07:32

I would believe it. Yes. And if people wanted to find you on social media to hear about new episodes of The Dripping Bucket or whatever you're currently working on writing wise,

Krystle 1:07:44

mostly I'm on Twitter. I've kind of abandoned most other platforms. Maybe I won't. I don't know.

Sara 1:07:49

please come back to Blue Sky.

Krystle 1:07:51

Yeah, yeah, well yeah, once I'm back, I'll

Sara 1:07:55

I mean, we've not been much on social media lately, but please come back to Blue Sky.

Krystle 1:08:00

try, I promise to try, but I'm there, I have an at there, it's just at CrystalMatar on any platform, and if my name doesn't come up, then I'm not on the platform, is pretty much the end of it. And yeah, so mostly I'm just working on getting Tainted Dominion 3 out, and getting ready for Glasgow.

Sara 1:08:18

And website, newsletter, and things like that.

Krystle 1:08:23

I have a website also under my name. I haven't updated it in several years and I'm very sorry. It's being kicked off into shit I'm gonna deal with in September. September's gonna be hell for me trying to update all of my stuff. I'm working on possibly doing a Patreon. For like cutscenes, especially smutty cutscenes, because y'all, I wrote so much smut trying to fix my second book and I cut nearly all of it out of my second book to a point where readers have thus commented that they were surprised how little smut there is in that second book. So I'm gonna, I'm going to pivot and try to monetize some of that blood, sweat, and tears and post that on Patreon. So eventually if I do that, that'll be on my Twitter.

Lilly 1:09:16

Well, thank you so much for joining us. You make reading these books a delight.

Krystle 1:09:23

It was worth it. It was worth it to

Sara 1:09:24

Only Crystal though, not me.

Lilly 1:09:27

Knowing I had an ally in the conversation

Krystle 1:09:30

Oh yeah.

Sara 1:09:33

I mean, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah, as always, Crystal, it's a delight to have you on, even when we don't have the same book opinions.

Krystle 1:09:42

Yeah. Yeah. I felt really bad about the first one, so I tried to be nicer, but I don't think I succeeded.

Sara 1:09:50

No, this was, this was much less painful for me, personally. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 1:10:01

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, BlueSky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara 1:10:12

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 1:10:20

We also have a Patreon, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 1:10:27

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!