Fiction Fans

Learn to Howl by Jennifer R. Donohue

• Episode 149

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Your hosts bring some cousin related chaos to their conversation about Learn to Howl by Jennifer R. Donohue. They talk about cousin main characters, werewolf origin stories, dog mannerisms, and more cousin stuff. They also bring up religious metaphors and oh, also the fact that they are cousins.


Content Warning: discussion of fictional sexual assault


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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

And tonight we're discussing Learn to Howl by Jennifer Donahue. Jennifer R. Donahue?

Sara:

I think we've always just introduced her as Jennifer Donahue.

Lilly:

But I think there's an R in the author byline. I think we fucked it up.

Sara:

The title does do Jennifer R. Donahue,

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

but I'm pretty sure that we've always just introduced her as Jennifer Donahue.

Lilly:

Doesn't mean it's right.

Sara:

She's been on the podcast and hasn't corrected us. So,

Lilly:

Well, we're discussing a book by Jennifer R. Donahue.

Sara:

who also has been on the podcast as Jennifer Donahue.

Lilly:

Yes. I know, I just, I care about author bylines because we did just publish Solstitia, which is our literary magazine. It's very good. Everyone should go read it. And Donahue is featured in that, which is extra exciting.

Sara:

Yes, she does have a story in Solstitia. You can buy the issue on our Patreon. Our Patreons shop for three dollars. You don't have to subscribe to our Patreon as a monthly subscriber to buy the issue.

Lilly:

Or, if you are a monthly subscriber, you get access to it for free. And all future issues, so, I mean, what's the better value? Just buying it is the better value, I'm not gonna lie.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean even because we are bringing this out, twice a year, that's the goal. Even if you count the cost of multiple issues, buying them individually still is probably a better deal than subscribing to our Patreon at the 1 tier.

Lilly:

Okay, if you subscribe to our Patreon at the 1 tier, you will be spending 6 for every Solstitia issue instead of 3. Which is twice as expensive. However, you will also get hours of bonus content. So

Sara:

This has turned into an ad for our Patreon. I'm not sure if I should be apologizing for that or not.

Lilly:

We're not going to apologize, but we also won't repeat it during the spoiler break, which is where we normally put it. So, you're just getting it up front. But before we start talking about the book, and after we talk about our own shit, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I went backpacking with my father. We tried to do that about twice a summer. This was our first trip and it went really, really well. It was only one night, so it was a pretty short trip, but we hiked 14 miles total and we were able to do that in just two days, which is way better than some of our previous trips. Like, not gonna lie, some of our previous trips, we've hiked half that distance, and at the end of it I've been like, I really don't know if we can do more backpacking because this was so rough on my father.

Lilly:

To be fair, your father is an adult.

Sara:

By which you mean he is going to be 74 this month. Like, it's very impressive that he is backpacking at

Lilly:

Exactly. Also, that is my new threshold for adult. If you're not 74, you're a kid. That's just, like, my new definition.

Sara:

That's how it works. Yeah, so, I mean, yes, you were correct. So even his previous attempts have been admirable, given that he is, as you say, an adult. But for this trip, we hiked twice the length as we have sometimes, and it was a really strong hike for him. Like, I didn't come out of it thinking, wow, are we going to be able to do more backpacking trips? Which, like I've said, is not something that I've been able to say in previous years. So, I it was great.

Lilly:

That is good.

Sara:

I didn't think that he was going to drop dead on the trail. Progress!

Lilly:

Sarah! You're not supposed to say that part out loud!

Sara:

it's never been quite that bad. But hiking with a heavy backpack is hard.

Lilly:

It is! No, it absolutely is! I can't do it. Your dad's in better shape than I am.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

My good thing is that I don't think we've recorded since the 4th of July, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah So I can use that as my good thing. We went to a reservation the Muckleshoot reservation being from California All fireworks are big scary magic to me. And so being in a place where you can just, like, run into the parking lot and shoot off huge, giant, professional grade fireworks is absolutely mind blowing. I've lived in Washington for over a decade now, and it is still, like, the coolest thing. It's never gonna get old. It's madness. It's fantastic.

Sara:

I was in Fresno for the 4th of July. That was when we were driving to the trailhead. And we stopped in Fresno for the night to get a hotel, because it's no fun to go backpacking after driving like four hours. And right across the street there was like a house or something, some kind of private residence, that was shooting off fireworks. And I could see the fireworks from the hotel room. And they were like, proper fireworks, i. e. I could see them even with my glasses off, and it was very exciting.

Lilly:

Anyway, I got to see a lot of fireworks. It was very fun. Lots of good people watching so much good people watching, uh, that could be a whole podcast on its own, but that's my good thing.

Sara:

Well, it's a fun good thing.

Lilly:

Thank you. What are we drinking tonight?

Sara:

So I do like to try to coordinate my drink to the book when possible,

Lilly:

Too much beer. Not gonna happen.

Sara:

but yes, there's too much beer. Not gonna happen. Donahue, I love you. I love this book. I'm not gonna drink beer for this book, so I'm drinking cider instead.

Lilly:

I had an answer. It's the same answer, but I'm gonna couch it differently because I just realized. I'm drinking homemade blueberry wine. It's half blueberry, half grape. We grew the grapes ourselves. We did not grow the blueberries ourselves. Our blueberry bushes are very sad. There is a still! One of the families does their own boos, and so that makes it relevant.

Sara:

That does make it relevant.

Lilly:

Have you read anything good lately?

Sara:

Yes, I have. Very emphatically. I have started reading the Mad Sisters of Essie by Tasha and Meta, which I'm reading for Subjective Chaos, and absolutely adoring. It is currently only published by HarperCollins India, I think, but it just got picked up by Daw, so it will be out in the UK and the US at some point in the next couple of years. And it's, oh, it's excellent. I'm really, really enjoying it. Highly recommend it.

Lilly:

Can you give me like a two sentence? What's the premise?

Sara:

So

Lilly:

Or, or just tell me the summary, that works too.

Sara:

I'm going to see what the summary says, because that probably is better than what I can describe. So there are two sisters, Myung and Lala. Okay. This is, this is a summary of the summary. It's not word for word what the summary says, but there are two sisters, Myung and Lala, and they live in the whale of Babel, which is this giant space whale. And. Eventually, Myung leaves because she wants a little bit more from life than exploring the insides of the space whale. And the insides of the space whale is not just like guts and intestines, it's like universes, different worlds and things. So it's actually pretty cool. But she wants people, and so she leaves and goes outside, and is trying to find the truth about the Mad Sisters of Essie because she thinks that that is going to lead her back to the Whale of Babel because she can't once she's left the whale she can't get back and after years she starts missing her sister. She wants to see her sister again so she's searching for the Mad Sisters of Essie and comes to this shape shifting island Ajda and that's where it stops because that's where I am 32 percent of the way through.

Lilly:

Your summary was interrupted by my cat crying very sad for me to pay attention to her.

Sara:

I'm sorry, Sif.

Lilly:

You probably saw me immediately get distracted. It was not that what you were saying was not interesting.

Sara:

I figured that it was cat related reasons, which are valid.

Lilly:

Well, that sounds really good. And I can't wait to hear, well, I guess not how it ends, but what your final reaction is to it.

Sara:

When it is out in the U. S., I might suggest we read it for the podcast.

Lilly:

It sounds really good. Yeah.

Sara:

Yeah. And like, the writing is beautiful, and just the way that the chapters interact works for me as a reader. Because it's interspersed with kind of academic papers about fairy tales and things like that. And I just,

Lilly:

Is it like almost not epistolary? Cause that's letters. Is that the same word for when it's stuff?

Sara:

It's not, I would say the vast bulk of story is narrative story, but it does have a couple of kind of, that kind of thing, ephemera sorts of, you know, letter, not letters, but articles.

Lilly:

Other formats.

Sara:

Yeah,

Lilly:

Well, I love that kind of storytelling. Very cool.

Sara:

yeah. Have you read anything lately?

Lilly:

You know, I have, uh, this is gonna be a weird, logical leap, but we finally watched the extended edition of the Hobbit movies because we bought them as soon as they came out, which means they were the theatrical editions. And then, we've just been watching those for years. And then, oh shit, they released extended editions. And we weren't paying attention. Because we already owned them, why would you look up new versions? Like fools.

Sara:

I have to admit, this is news to me too.

Lilly:

Yeah! There's a bunch of shit I've never seen before! So, recently we had COVID, which was the perfect time to rewatch all of the Hobbit movies, but by the extended editions this time.

Sara:

Yes!

Lilly:

And, uh, it's just fanservice for people who like the book. And that might be the case for the original trilogy as well. I don't have, like, a prepared idea. I don't have a prepared essay about, like, the extended edition Lord of the Rings versus the extended edition Hobbit. So that's fine. We'll talk about it later, but

Sara:

That'll be an exclusive episode for our Patreon.

Lilly:

hell yeah, Sarah, we can watch those. Oh, we should do a marathon on our discord.

Sara:

We should.

Lilly:

But the question was, have I read anything good lately? And this is the leap of logic. I watched The Hobbit, which made me read Hobbit fanfiction, which made me read BBC Sherlock fanfiction. Now, I know what you're thinking.

Sara:

I'm wondering which of those is your good thing? I mean, is your read anything good lately?

Lilly:

Yeah, I think none of those are my good thing. And, good lately? I actually skipped over The Hobbit fanfiction entirely, which is the garbage part. Because I watched the Hobbit movies and then went, I would like to read Sherlock and Watson fanfiction. Okay, none of this has anything to do with Learn to Howl, which is very unfair because I fucking tore through this book. Dude, it's so good.

Sara:

It is. So this is the second time that we've both read it, because we did blurb this book, and we have blurbed book two in the trilogy, and we will be blurbing book three once we read it, which is going to happen in time for us to blurb it properly, I promise. But all of that to say, we've read this book before. I loved it the first time. I loved it on this read as well.

Lilly:

It's a really good example of a novel where, okay, sometime we're gonna have to have a whole ass conversation about spoilers and why they matter. And I think I've brought that up a few times, but here again, we have This book, you don't need a spoiler warning for. We're still gonna do it, of course, because it matters, and it matters to us, and so we're not gonna spoil things for you. We could, if we wanted to, and it would be fine, and you could still read it, and it would be great. Because that's what re reading books is all about.

Sara:

Well, I mean, we've talked about it a little bit before, where sometimes the point of the book is the journey, and sometimes the point of the book is the end, and so in the latter kind of book, knowing the end really does change how you enjoy the book itself. I don't think this is one of them, but the blurb on the back, or the summary on the back, or at least the summary on Goodreads, does not give lots of spoilers, so I'm not gonna give lots of spoilers either. I will say though, I was surprised, or not surprised, because I've read it before, but I always forget just how fast shit hits the fan in this book.

Lilly:

Oh my god, if you look at the amount of notes I have in the first 20 percent versus the last rest of the book, and I'm using notes as a I had time to stop and think about what I was reading. That's like, that's a pretty good metric, honestly. I make notes as I'm reading. I know I'm rude doing a podcast on it, so if I have an opinion, I stop and I make that note. But when the book is good, there's honestly fewer notes, because I'm just rolling.

Sara:

Yeah, and I would say that things really kick off at, like, the 21 percent mark in this book.

Lilly:

It's nuts!

Sara:

Yeah, like, it is, it is so nuts! Like, the main inciting event happens at the 21 percent mark, and you're like, wait!

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

so fast! Okay, but

Lilly:

Okay, I'm gonna, like, rewind a little bit. That's pretty standard, like, three act structure, to be fair.

Sara:

it feels faster.

Lilly:

I think it's less how fast it is and more how high the tension ratchets up. Because this story introduces us to Allie, our main character, who is dealing with the fact that she has become a werewolf. That's already a lot, okay? Like, there's a lot going on.

Sara:

She has become a werewolf and her mother abandons her with these relatives she didn't know existed.

Lilly:

But I, like, this poor girl, that alone is an incredible novel.

Sara:

Yeah, that's pretty traumatic, just by itself.

Lilly:

And then, can we say, can we say the thing? I think it's fair.

Sara:

Say the thing.

Lilly:

Her whole new family gets, like, burnt to the ground and may be murdered or kidnapped. We don't know. So, the book starts with a twist. Which is stupid, because there's nothing to twist on, except for Allie it is.

Sara:

Yeah. I mean, Allie's whole life has been turned upside down.

Lilly:

And so she finally adjusts to her new normal and then it's yanked away from her. And as a reader, you're like, oh, oh, oh, okay. This is not a sweet coming of age story. Like, we are going on an adventure.

Sara:

We are. I mean, I do want this to be Some kind of like action adventure movie series.

Lilly:

You have said that about everything Donahue has written. Okay, not action adventure specifically, because Exit Ghost is not action adventure.

Sara:

want this to be a movie series I want run with the hunted to be a television show. There is a difference.

Lilly:

okay, fair. The point is, her work is so cinematic. There's so much adrenaline. It's so good.

Sara:

Yes

Lilly:

This book introduces Poor Allie. She has to deal with so much. She does it. She does an amazing job. I hope that's not a spoiler. But I do love Allie. Which is apparently short for Alleluia. Which, oh my god, poor thing.

Sara:

Yeah, so Allie comes from a very religious household Her father is a preacher and I kind of get the impression that he's maybe not necessarily a megachurch But like a big church

Lilly:

the vibe, yeah.

Sara:

Yeah, and so her family is very religious, she's brought up in this very religious household, she's homeschooled for a lot of the time, although she has been going to the local high school for the last, like, year, until things happen, and her mother uproots her whole life to drop her off with her aunts.

Lilly:

Doesn't just, well, no, okay. We're not actually gonna get into that much detail because, well, I don't think it would spoil the plot. I do think readers should experience it as written. But as soon as Allie gets to her new family, she meets her aunts and she's just sort of dropped off in this household with Three women who live in the forest and have dogs and a moonshine distillery and Is that really coven coded? Or did I read Exit Ghost too recently?

Sara:

I think that you've been reading too many witch books too recently.

Lilly:

Three chill women just hanging out in a forest. That's a coven. I'm not crazy.

Sara:

Do we have the maiden mother Crone in there?

Lilly:

No, because it's more of a werewolf. We definitely have an alpha, I would say,

Sara:

We do, that is Rachel, who is the kind of in charge aunt.

Lilly:

and we're always here for an alpha woman.

Sara:

I don't know, I kind of find Rachel to be a bit of a jerk a lot of the times.

Lilly:

that's the definition of an alpha.

Sara:

And I kind of find her to be a bit of a jerk, so I'm not sure if I'm always here for an alpha.

Lilly:

No, an alpha woman.

Sara:

I mean, equal opportunity, sure, but I did sometimes want to shake her.

Lilly:

Oh yeah, the whole point of an alpha is that you want to shake them and say you're doing it wrong. But we can talk more about that dynamic in the spoiler section because Oh boy, do I have an opinion.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I think it's so meaningful that Allie was raised in an extremely religious household. Because then we get some, like, really double time narrative. Where she's adjusting to being a werewolf and also adjusting to leaving her religion. It, it's not exactly a metaphor, but it's definitely not not a metaphor, you know?

Sara:

Yeah, there's, I mean, there's definitely some deconstruction happening.

Lilly:

Absolutely. And it's not the focus of the novel, it's almost just a side effect. of Allie discovering that she's this whole other creature. But isn't that deconstruction also? This young woman discovers that she's so much more than she thought she was.

Sara:

Yep.

Lilly:

And she shouldn't have to be constrained by the guidelines that she was told she was.

Sara:

Yeah, it's really nice seeing Allie kind of, I don't want to say learn to howl because that's a bad joke based on the title, but

Lilly:

But it's not wrong.

Sara:

It's not wrong. Yeah, it's really nice seeing her gain confidence in herself and have a little more presence when it feels like at the very beginning of the book she is very tightly constrained within the bounds of who she views herself, like, through the lens of her religion.

Lilly:

As Allie is like going through this very huge change in her whole life, and life concept. There's also a very interesting concept of modesty discussed in this book, and we do get it from her perspective, who is raised very Christian, but also, you know, werewolves who are changing into wolves. You know, they're human beings who are getting naked to be wolves who don't wear clothes. And I don't feel like this book really gets where it's trying to go. I'm gonna guess that the sequel does, just because I know Donahue is an author.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I'm not necessarily sure that I would say That there's a big point to it, or that there even has to be a big point to it, but I do think that modesty for Allie, in many respects, is kind of a shorthand for her religious upbringing. And so she has to learn to be comfortable with discarding that in order to become comfortable as a werewolf. Like, it signifies that transition.

Lilly:

I would have loved that, except there's this Sort of understanding where the werewolves are like, Oh, no one's gonna look when I take my clothes off and turn into a wolf. And that felt weird. I don't know. Why would they give a shit?

Sara:

I think that that's just you being very comfortable in yourself, to be perfectly honest.

Lilly:

Have you never been skinny dipping?

Sara:

I've never been skinny dipping.

Lilly:

Okay, fair. Alright, that's me then? I gotcha. Movin

Sara:

Yeah. Like, and, I mean, sure, I can, I can address if we're all looking the other way, but I don't necessarily want to address if people are looking at me.

Lilly:

Yeah, yeah, no. That's not the same thing as skinny dipping.

Sara:

All of that to say, I think that you're bringing some of your own perspective to that specific thing.

Lilly:

Oh, so you're saying I'm more liberal than werewolves.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

I'm into that. That's my new catchphrase. Lily Ellison. More liberal than a werewolf. There's another thing, though, that I think is actually a real thing. Not just me bringing my

Sara:

Also, actually, before we move on, I do think that a lot of, a lot of what we see is the werewolves around Allie, like, respecting her boundaries and not pushing them too far, rather than them not being comfortable with casual nudity.

Lilly:

Was it? Yeah, they were just being nice. That's fair.

Sara:

what I think. Like, I think there's a certain amount of just, like, we don't care, but we know that you care, so we're gonna be polite about it.

Lilly:

wasn't the vibe I got. Because when she is with the second werewolf family, which, there's more than one werewolf family, that's not a big spoiler. This is a world with werewolves. I felt like the rhetoric was, this is how we do it. We change in these shower stalls and no one can see us. I'm down with taking that as a white lie, but that was not how I read it at the time.

Sara:

I read that as, we don't know you guys that well, so this is how we are going to do it, but when it's just us, we're more casual.

Lilly:

I'm very into that reading. That honestly makes a lot more sense. I didn't read it that way at the time, but I like it better.

Sara:

that was how I interpreted it.

Lilly:

And especially because it's mostly families, right? Because werewolfism, like, if you will, the word is not used in this book. And I kind of love that. But. It's very genetic. And so, like, why would someone be weird about taking their clothes off in front of their sister or their cousin, you know?

Sara:

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a family thing. There are different families who have it, but they all come by it a little differently. We'll talk about that later. And they're all very insular. Like, they know that the other families exist, they do interact with them, but not that much, necessarily.

Lilly:

loved the politics in this book. The kind of, like, extremely personal politics of, like, If something happens to you, I could get murdered, but also I don't like you. That's, okay. I know we've talked a little bit about politics. I know what book we're doing next week, so we're talking a lot about politics. Which is not generally my vibe, but this shit is.

Sara:

Yeah, it's very much politics on a personal level and not on a macro level.

Lilly:

Yes. And that kind of, I need to navigate this situation in order to, uh, save my family or not get killed, is a type of politic that very much appeals to me. This is not actually about Learn to Howl, though. The thing I'm about to say is about Donahue as an author. Because we have read, now, three very different settings. Or at least I have.

Sara:

Yes. For the podcast, we have read the first book of her Run with the Hunted series, which is a series of novellas that's kind of, I think we've called them, what, cozy cyberpunk?

Lilly:

I wouldn't have used the word cozy, but yes.

Sara:

You're making a face, but I think, I do think it's cozy because there's no true danger to any of the characters up until maybe the last one that's played. been released to date, but.

Lilly:

That, yeah, there is danger. You don't know.

Sara:

No, but you, you do know that Donahue is not going to actually kill any of the main characters, she's not going to harm the dogs, like, there's an aspect of coziness there.

Lilly:

Okay, you brought that up. I really appreciate that. I know that Donahue will never kill the dogs.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

It means a lot to me. Honestly, it means a lot to me.

Sara:

Yeah. So I, I do think that the moniker cozy is not that far off for that series.

Lilly:

But I don't think it's the right descriptor. I think those are high octane, semi cyberpunk heist books.

Sara:

Okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna argue that either. They do give me a cozy vibe. Like I read them when I'm in need of a pick me up and just want something. Cozy? So,

Lilly:

We've read those books. We've also read Exit Ghost, which is an incredible witchy girl Hamlet adaptation. We interviewed Donahue. It was amazing, but also very different vibe,

Sara:

Yes. And I think what really stands out for me about Donahue is the breadth of her body of work. Because everything that I've read by her, and I've read a couple of stuff by her now that we haven't covered on the podcast as well, but it all is so different and yet it is uniformly excellent. Like, she's one of those auto buy authors for me.

Lilly:

including her story that we published in Solstitia.

Sara:

Including her story that we published in Solstitia, so literally an autobiographer because we did pay her for that.

Lilly:

More importantly, though, I think What I have consistently loved about her work, and it, honestly, the first thing I read by her was a novella, and I can tell. Like, she does not waste time. This girl gets into the shit right away, and I love that. This book was really fast.

Sara:

Yeah, we've talked about it a little bit, but yeah.

Lilly:

Oh my god. It's so good. There is no wasted time anywhere. I am very hard on long books, as I should be, because they need to fucking justify themselves. And Donahue makes every word count of this novel.

Sara:

I am not necessarily hard on long books, but also Donahue makes every word of this novel count.

Lilly:

Something else that we've noticed in every single one of her works are dogs.

Sara:

Oh, you can tell she's a dog lover.

Lilly:

She's such a dog person.

Sara:

I mean, like, if you follow her on social media, you know that, but if you don't, you can tell through her books.

Lilly:

Oh my god. Like, I'm not currently a dog owner, so I'm probably not the best judge, but just every time she describes a dog's actions. And, well, this is a werewolf novel, so it's, like, specifically important, but you can tell she's actually interacted with these animals. She knows what she's talking about.

Sara:

Yes. Yes, absolutely. The dogs in her books feel real.

Lilly:

And even when they do, like, kind of unreal things, you're like, okay, yeah, but if a dog did have to deal with a werewolf, that is what they would do. I believe it.

Sara:

Yeah, she definitely sells it.

Lilly:

I don't think we've read anything that she's written that didn't have the dog in it.

Sara:

I'm trying to think if the Drowned Heir, which is the novella, the ship novella, well I'm calling it a ship novella, a lot of it takes place on a ship, but that's probably not an accurate description. If that had dogs, and I can't remember if it did. It doesn't have named characters though. Only the ship is named, all of the characters are not.

Lilly:

That's an unfair comparison and we're moving on.

Sara:

It's completely unfair, but it's a good novella.

Lilly:

Speaking of dogs, obviously this was a werewolf book, we've said it a few times, and I had a very similar experience to reading The Hunter's Gambit, which is a vampire novel by C. L. Pirlo, where vampires and werewolves are both extremely established creatures. We've seen a hundred movies. We've read a hundred books.

Sara:

There's a lot of vampires and werewolves in popular culture.

Lilly:

Yes! Like, I know these guys. I, I'm familiar with them. And so whenever there's a new story, my question is not, What's going on? My question is, Which rules are you following and which rules are you changing? You know what I mean?

Sara:

mean, it's, it's fun to see how it compares and contrasts with established lore, right? Like that's part of what you enjoy. And for me, with this book, I really liked seeing how it goes against The lore in a lot of ways. Like, you know, they can turn whenever they want. Yes, they're allergic to silver, but that's kind of about it as far as we know.

Lilly:

It does not appear to be contagious at all. It's genetic,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

which is very important. And we have a couple of different origin stories. And they all seem to be like, revenge slash defense related, which I put in the non spoiler section and have just realized that all of my follow up comments are part of the spoiler conversation. So, let's just move on. I think, most importantly, Sarah, we wrote a whole ass blurb for this book. What is it? Who should read it?

Sara:

We did write a whole ass blurb about this book. So we said, That it was a relatable story about self identity wrapped inside high octane action, this hair raising tale keeps the stakes high without sidelining complex family dynamics. And it's an excellent introduction to an exciting new series. And I stand by all of those words.

Lilly:

Okay. If you are at all interested. in any coming of age story at all, read this book.

Sara:

If you like werewolves, but you're a little bit bored of a lot of the modern, like, mythologies about werewolves, I think you should read this book.

Lilly:

The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Well, Sarah, I think we have a very unique perspective on the relationship in this book. The main relationship in this book, which is Allie, our main character, and Morgan, her older cousin, who she has to deal with for the whole ass thing. And think we lead on this enough, but we're cousins.

Sara:

We are cousins, and I think that our age gap is the same as Morgan and Allie.

Lilly:

the exact same. I am not Allie. I'm so sorry.

Sara:

And I'm very much not Morgan. But I like that I am being positioned as the cool one in this comparison.

Lilly:

I actually am a little worried that it made me more sympathetic to their relationship, because I think every single moment in this book Allie was like, Morgan was nice to me. She wasn't mean to me, and I was surprised by it. And I was like, Of course she was nice to you, she's her cousin, what the fuck?

Sara:

I mean, I do think that we, and I'm not just saying this about you and I, but about us and our cousins in general. I think that we're lucky to have a closer relationship with them than many people do. And so we do kind of take that as the default when it's not.

Lilly:

Can you imagine if someone introduced a brand new cousin to us tomorrow? They would be smothered.

Sara:

They would be. I mean, we would be like, hell yes, welcome to the family. Every single one of us in our cousin group would be like that. So I do think that there's a little bit of that that both of us bring to this story, to be honest.

Lilly:

And so every time the cousins were like, Oh, I'm surprised that this other cousin was like, Yeah, I'll help you. I was like, What do you mean? What? I'm not even a werewolf and I would do that.

Sara:

I would throw down for any of my cousins, of course.

Lilly:

Not even thrown down. Like, Yeah, you could crash with me. That's a pretty low bar.

Sara:

To be fair, though, I mean, they do have some relatives who don't really meet that bar.

Lilly:

That's true. And they suck, and that's why you never talk to them again.

Sara:

Well, you definitely hold grudges a lot more than I do, but back to, back to Learn to Howl, which we are ostensibly talking about,

Lilly:

How can we not? Okay, this whole book is about cousins. How can we not bring our personal shit into it?

Sara:

it's true. It's true. But, like, I do really enjoy their dynamic, and by their I mean Morgan and Allie. Where Morgan is this cool older cousin. She's in a band, like she tours and stuff. She's much more aggressive and impulsive than Allie, but she looks out for Allie in the ways that she can.

Lilly:

She not just tours and stuff, she's in a band big enough that an unrelated person recognizes the name of. That's a pretty big deal. Like, she's in a pretty big band,

Sara:

Yes, she, she is in a big band.

Lilly:

which was actually very funny and very cheesy. I, like, I loved it. But that's very funny. It's a little dramatic.

Sara:

I mean, I don't know, I think it depends on your definition of big because, like, I think there are plenty of bands where people who are into that specific niche genre would know, but like, the greater world doesn't.

Lilly:

Okay, it was not introduced as This other character happened to be a fan of the specific genre. That was not how it was introduced.

Sara:

Maybe not. Maybe not.

Lilly:

Her band was on the radio.

Sara:

Yeah, okay, that's fair. That does make them decently large.

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean and it was great and I loved that. I'm just saying Morgan was in a pretty big band.

Sara:

Yes, that's fair.

Lilly:

You are not in a pretty big band. So you're slacking as a big cousin.

Sara:

Yeah, but I do a podcast for you. I feel like that makes up for it.

Lilly:

I have never shown up on your doorstep as an accidental wolf, so.

Sara:

So your slacking is what you're saying.

Lilly:

We cannot talk about this book without bringing personal shit into it. I feel like that's not what Donahue meant, but sorry.

Sara:

Yeah, sorry, this, this is a much more tangent filled, uh, podcast episode than sometimes.

Lilly:

Can you even imagine me as Allie? I am the least ally person who has ever existed.

Sara:

Yeah, you're, you're not very Allie at all, which is why I think it's funny that by age I'm more getting your Allie because I think by nature it's more the other way around.

Lilly:

Absolutely. But also, I would go on a crusade across multiple states to murder everyone and rescue your parents. You know that, right?

Sara:

Of course I know that. I would do that for your parents, too. Maybe a little less murder y, but,

Lilly:

Oh, but if it was necessary, I would.

Sara:

if it was necessary, absolutely.

Lilly:

And that's, okay, that's the thing. Allie, okay, she hasn't like met a lot of her family, her extended family, so I understand why. But she's always surprised when Morgan is there for her. Her older cousin and I think that's so perfect because that's exactly what family is, right? They're not exactly nice to you, I say, with no reason at all.

Sara:

Sometimes they make you start a podcast when you really don't want to.

Lilly:

It's been known to happen,

Sara:

It's been known to happen.

Lilly:

but every single time that it actually matters, Morgan shows up. And Allie is always surprised. And I was like, girl, you know there's a difference between someone being a little shitty versus someone actually being there for you. And then I realized that she didn't know that because she had a weird religious upbringing where everyone's petty and gross. And I

Sara:

Yeah, I, I mean, I think that speaks loads to her upbringing and how Donna, who, like, makes us understand how traumatized she is by her upbringing, that she doesn't understand that. But also, I think it's telling that, It's not her parents who have been kidnapped by this shady pharmaceutical corporation, and she's willing to, you know, go and rescue them and kill people and do whatever it takes.

Lilly:

the fact that this book didn't feel bad, I think is very meaningful. I get everything that they did, and I understand why Allie was mistrustful of Morgan, because she didn't know her that well, and she's very sheltered, so an abrasive woman is going to feel aggressive, and so of course she's surprised when Morgan is actually very kind to her, uh, even though she's outwardly prickly. Like, it all makes a lot of sense.

Sara:

I think it also makes sense, too, when you consider, like, Morgan is not what I would consider traditionally kind, in the sense that she is prickly, and she does kind of, I don't want to say hide her motivations, but it's not necessarily evident on the surface level. Like, you know, sometimes, sometimes she talks around her kindness, or it comes at it from a different angle. So it's not always evident at first glance. That she's actually trying to be nice. But she is trying to be nice, and she is trying to be considerate, and she's a great older cousin.

Lilly:

Okay, specifically, there are a couple of times when Allie confides in Morgan about, like, Allie was sexually assaulted at the beginning of the book and that's not, like, covered until later. And she expects Morgan to make fun of her. And honestly, to me, that feels like a young woman who's never had a true ally.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Because You can make fun of someone for a lot of stuff, and never do that. Like, what the fuck?

Sara:

also, I mean, when Allie confides in Morgan, Morgan makes a joke, not about her sexual assault, to be very clear, but about, like, being the person who is left to have that conversation, because at this point, all of the aunts are gone. But that's coming from a position of worry for her mother and aunts, and

Lilly:

Yeah, at that point, Morgan's mother has been kidnapped by a shady science group. Like, she's allowed to be a little fucked up.

Sara:

Yeah, and, and also it just like, like it, it feels to me like a very real reaction and a very real response to, to not knowing how to deal with the situation where, yeah, you do kind of want to make light of things because your other option is going and punching the dude who did this in the face. And that's not necessarily a viable alternative at this point in time, and so she reacts the way that she can. And Allie recognizes that, like, to be clear. She knows that Morgan's not making this joke because she's making fun of what she went through. It's an attempt to be able to react.

Lilly:

And I think there's something very real about that in this book. There's a couple of times when characters React in ways that aren't, like, ideal. They're not, like, the fantastical, If I was in that situation, that's what I would do. And one of those is also where a character in a, The rival family, the Ward family, I say rival, they do help them, but kind of a little bit. Joe comes out to Allie as trans and Allie is like not really sure how to react and so she just like does her best and everyone's chill with it. They're like, yeah, you didn't know what to do. You did your best. That's fine.

Sara:

Yeah, and I think that's what really humanizes all of the characters in this book to me, is that they're not perfect, they don't react perfectly, but they are doing their best in sometimes shitty situations. And it feels like they're doing their best.

Lilly:

And the other characters understand that. I think that's really important too because like, As a person in life, sometimes you interact with someone and you're like, You did your best, honey. Nice try, moving on. You know, we've all been there.

Sara:

And sometimes you're the one who's just doing your best and you're like, I know that I could have handled that better, but in the moment I didn't know what to do and so I just did what I could.

Lilly:

all you can do is hope that the other person understands that.

Sara:

Yeah. So seeing that grace extended to characters is nice.

Lilly:

Overall, this is a very female centric book.

Sara:

It is. Yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, the lycanthropy in Allie's specific family line, this is not true for all of the werewolves, or all of the werewolf families that are mentioned. In the series, but specifically for Allie.

Lilly:

love that! Can I just say, I'm sorry, I love that different werewolf families have different rules. And I'm so excited to read more!

Sara:

Yes, but specifically for Allie's family, it is only passed down through the female line. So all of the women in the family are werewolves, except for Allie's mom. And there's maybe a little bit more that we're gonna get there, if you read, you know, books two. I can't say book three, because we haven't read it yet, but

Lilly:

I bet it's probably addressed there too, though.

Sara:

probably. I'd believe

Lilly:

I have faith in Dadahu.

Sara:

Yes. But so, yes, it's going to be very female centric because the main character, her whole family, is all about this werewolf gene being passed down through the female line.

Lilly:

I'm gonna argue because, no, her immediate family is all about her father and brothers and then she gets rejected to a family that's all about women and there is, there's a lot there that I'm not equipped to talk about.

Sara:

Okay, that's, that's true. It's not necessarily the default that this book was going to be very female centric, but the way that Donahue has decided to focus on the family, yes.

Lilly:

Yeah, no. Donna, who wrote a book that was very female centric, but she absolutely centered it in a world where that is not the default,

Sara:

Yes, and the Ward family, which we've talked about a little bit, they are, I'm gonna call them the main rivals of Allie's family.

Lilly:

rivals it a cute way, like they also help each other.

Sara:

They do in this book, but you don't get the sense that they've done it a lot in the past.

Lilly:

Did they only help because Jo is the best? Maybe.

Sara:

Maybe, I mean, I, I think there's some politicking going on in the background that we'll learn about more. But, their lycanthropy is passed down through the male line, so. It's a very different kind of feeling for them.

Lilly:

That also makes it very relevant that Jo is a trans character because He exists in a family where the men are werewolves. And I don't think it's confirmed that Joe is a werewolf.

Sara:

I don't think it's confirmed in this book, and honestly, genuinely it's been long enough since I've read book two and there's been enough books in between that. I can't remember if it's ever addressed in there, but I, I am looking forward to rereading book two and to reading book three, see what happens.

Lilly:

I feel like if book two said, Yeah, Joe's totally a werewolf, you'd remember.

Sara:

Maybe, I mean, there's a lot about Book Two that I do remember, but

Lilly:

We don't have to talk about it. But this book brings up a very fascinating concept around lycanthropy and biological sex. That is not fully explored. I mean, Donahue brings it up. She talks about mostly, I mean, Joe's the only character that we know is trans. And he announces it mostly just to head off any garbage. Which I imagine is common.

Sara:

yeah, you kind of get the sense that he's gotten some garbage thrown at him.

Lilly:

Well, and we meet his family, who sucks.

Sara:

So, yeah.

Lilly:

Not necessarily in that regard, though. Because, honestly, it kind of seems like the wards treat him the same as the other men, which is good,

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, to a certain extent, I'd say that they treat him as young, but I think that's separate from treating him as a young woman. Right? Like, they do kind of mollycoddle him a little bit and put him on the easy jobs, but I think that's just because of his age. He's a teenager, not because they're saying anything about where he came from.

Lilly:

right? But there is absolutely some interesting subtext because Allie is very uncomfortable around men. Obviously, there's a rape scene that is implied at the beginning and then fully explored later that is not actually the case. actualized. That's how Allie becomes a werewolf to defend herself. The result of that is that she does not want to be alone with aggressive men. Which, who does, though, really, to be honest.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, hashtag relatable.

Lilly:

But her relationship with Joe is extremely tender. And I, okay, I ship it. Can I just, should I just say that out loud now? I

Sara:

Oh, I think, I think, I think we all ship it. I mean, there, there are things that we can't say. Oh, there are things that I really want to bring up from book two

Lilly:

We can't, we're

Sara:

that

Lilly:

about book one. We can't, we can't.

Sara:

about book one, but uh, yeah. I, I like the relationship a lot.

Lilly:

As far as book one goes, there's a fascinating dynamic between Allie, who is He's extremely hesitant around men and Joe, who is a man who does not set off those red flags for her. We also meet Everett, who is Another one of the wards who backs up Joe when he supports Allie at the end of the novel. I want to see where the series goes, but I really love the conversation around this is a man who has different baggage, you know?

Sara:

Yeah, absolutely. And you know when you compare that with, say, Luke, who is kind of the man's man of the Ward family.

Lilly:

Who's just really aggressive and awful the whole time.

Sara:

Yeah, basically. And condescending and a bit of a dick. There is a huge contrast there.

Lilly:

I am here for the romance novel between Joe and Allie, and I know that that's like not what this is about, but I cannot wait. They are literally made for each other.

Sara:

They're pretty cute, the way that they dance around each other in this book. Uh, I mean, Allie is very traumatized, but I like their relationship in this book.

Lilly:

It's also, I've said this a lot before, it's based around mutual respect,

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

and that means a lot. It goes really far,

Sara:

Yeah. I appreciate any book where it feels like the characters are coming To a relationship based on mutual respect, and where it feels like they're coming to a place where people genuinely might go, given their situation. And, you know, Don, who does that well? And that's not something that every novel does, like, you know, not every novel makes me believe that these traumatized kids would feel like this.

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

Okay, so, we've talked a lot about Allie and Morgan, and their quest to save their aunts and mother. We haven't actually talked about consequences of their actions, and how when they get to The facility that is holding Rachel, who is Morgan's mother, and Dulcy, who is one of the aunts. Dulcy is dead.

Lilly:

What the fuck?

Sara:

Dulcy

Lilly:

I didn't realize this was a hardcore book.

Sara:

was so mad when I got there. I was so mad. Because Dulcy is like, she's the one that Allie kind of bonds with the most. Like, she's,

Lilly:

You knew she was the one who was gonna die. Because at one point in the middle, Allie was like, If I ever confess the fact that I was sexually assaulted, it would be to Dulcy. So you're like, Oh, so she's dead now.

Sara:

yeah, yeah, that's kind of, you're not wrong. But also, like What the fuck, Donahue? How could you do this to me?

Lilly:

That's why this ain't cozy. I know you didn't say this was cozy,

Sara:

would not call this cozy. No, no, I would not call this book cozy, but I was so mad to hear that Dulcy died. I like Dulcy. Like, I didn't always like the other two sisters, but Dulcy.

Lilly:

But that was the whole point.

Sara:

It was the whole point. I mean, you're absolutely right.

Lilly:

When you have one unadulterated character that you're like, Yeah, I love that character, you're like, Oh, okay, they're gonna die.

Sara:

I mean, you're, you're not wrong, but I'm still gonna be mad about it.

Lilly:

As you should be. Dulcy didn't deserve it.

Sara:

Dulcy did not deserve it. Dulcy also dies off screen. I mean, when they go to rescue Rachel and they think Dulcy, they find Dulcy's ashes. Like, yeah, Dulcy doesn't get the dignity of an on screen death.

Lilly:

I was suspicious when Dulcy was introduced, I have to be honest. It was too good.

Sara:

I don't know, I mean, maybe. You're also just more suspicious than I am in general. So, I guess that tracks. I was not necessarily expecting Dulcy to die when I read this the first time. Hmm.

Lilly:

Not to die, but there are a few moments where Allie has dialogue. Where she's like, we have time. And so I do have comments where it was like, oh, no you don't.

Sara:

Yeah, that's, that is fair.

Lilly:

You wouldn't say this if you did.

Sara:

That is fair.

Lilly:

I frankly can't believe this is the first book of a series. Am I allowed to say that?

Sara:

How so?

Lilly:

Cause, it's clearly the intro of a story. Where's the rest of it?

Sara:

Well, book two is coming out, I'm pretty sure, the week that we release this episode. And book three is coming out by the end of the year. So,

Lilly:

Is 3 the end? Do we

Sara:

yes. It's a trilogy.

Lilly:

then I accept. But, holy shit. Why even split it up? I just want to read the whole thing.

Sara:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com

Sara:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly:

We also have a Patreon, patreon. com slash fictionfanspod, where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a little bit of other nonsense.

Sara:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Lilly:

Bye!