Fiction Fans

Wintersmith by Terry Pratchett

• Episode 148

Share episode

Your hosts take a quick detour to discuss ebook formats (including footnotes) before diving in to Wintersmith by Terry Pratchett. They also talk about the empire of Nanny Ogg, Annagramma’s Mean Girls character arc, and ask themselves: What Makes a Discworld book a Witch book?

Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon



Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly:

And today we'll be discussing Wintersmith by Terry Pratchett. But first, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I got triple the amount of cherries on my cherry tree this year as I did last year.

Lilly:

Congratulations! Was that three?

Sara:

Six.

Lilly:

Oh,

Sara:

I think I got two last year. But that still tripled the amount of cherries, so I'll be rolling in cherries in no time. And I also had some blueberries, which was nice. I feel like my blueberry bush last year did not give me a lot of blueberries, and they weren't very good blueberries, so it's an improvement.

Lilly:

wonderful. I think my good thing is that the week is over.

Sara:

Do you get Friday off too?

Lilly:

Yeah, I mean, no, because last minute shit came in at work and I was like, I'm not doing this tonight and I'm not doing this tomorrow, so I guess you're gonna get it on Friday.

Sara:

But you don't have to work very hard on Friday, at

Lilly:

Yeah, it's something that might take half an hour tops, but it's for a time sensitive thing, so I'm gonna do it. We've been asking for it for like a week and a half, and of course they sent it at 4. 56 today.

Sara:

Of course. That is typical.

Lilly:

Mm hmm, but other than that, short week, I'm happy.

Sara:

Yay!

Lilly:

And there's a ton of stuff I'm looking forward to, but that's not the question, so I will just have to wait.

Sara:

You'll have to save those for future episodes.

Lilly:

What are you drinking today?

Sara:

I am drinking the round world equivalent of sheep liniment. And by that I mean whiskey, but not moonshine, which I think sheep liniment technically is.

Lilly:

Yeah, it's like Apple Moonshine or something, right?

Sara:

I think it, I think it is genuinely whiskey. So

Lilly:

Oh, okay. There's something about apples gets brought up.

Sara:

Granny Makes Scumble. I think it's Granny who makes Scumble

Lilly:

Oh, okay.

Sara:

and that is the apple drink,

Lilly:

Gotcha.

Sara:

but the sheep liniment is described as being like a brown liquid and the Wee Free men really like it. So my, you know, understanding is that it's whiskey.

Lilly:

it's definitely alcohol of some kind.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

My favorite line in this book was, You gave sheep limitament to an actual sheep or something to that effect? Or maybe it wasn't, or maybe it was a pig something to an actual pig, but someone misunderstood the euphemism.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Well, I am drinking some iced lemon and ginger tea with a good bit of honey. The only thing I can actually taste in it is Is the honey, due to various life circumstances, causing me to have no sense of smell and almost no sense of taste. But at least honey tastes good, right?

Sara:

At least honey tastes good. Yes.

Lilly:

maybe, maybe that should be my good thing for this week. Honey tastes good.

Sara:

I'm glad you can still taste the honey.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

And I hope that your sense of taste and smell comes back sooner rather than later.

Lilly:

Me too. Me too. And have you read anything lately other than our podcast book?

Sara:

I did start reading, let me Pull up the author name. The Saint of Bright Doors by Vajra Chandrasekhara. And I'm only on chapter two. Actually, no, I'm on chapter three because chapter two was like a page. I would have been farther, but we pushed this recording up, so we're recording sooner. So the time that I was going to read, I'm not reading. But,

Lilly:

You can read after instead.

Sara:

I will read after instead. That doesn't help me much for the purposes of this question. But I did start it. I am enjoying it in the very brief bit that I've read so far.

Lilly:

Wonderful. So Wintersmith is the, are we on the third?

Sara:

take that as you have not read anything.

Lilly:

Oh, no. God, no. I read Wintersmith. That's my answer.

Sara:

I mean, I didn't know the answer, but also I'm not letting you off the hook that easy. Nope.

Lilly:

All right, no comment. How's that?

Sara:

Better.

Lilly:

But Wintersmith is a I think the third or fourth book in the Tiffany Aching miniseries. Third?

Sara:

I believe it's the third book, yes. Yes, there's the We Free Men, A Hatful of Sky, and then Wintersmith, and after this is I Shall Wear Midnight, and then The Shepherd's Crown.

Lilly:

I didn't realize The Shepherd's Crown was a Tiffany Aching book. I suppose that makes sense though.

Sara:

It is a Tiffany Aking book, yes.

Lilly:

Well, this is not really book related, but it did affect my reading of it quite a bit. I've been using a different e reader app for the Discworld books than I usually do, and I've been avoiding naming it precisely because all I do is complain about it, and that seems unfair. But! I think they updated or something? Because it used to be that this app would only tell me what percentage I was through each individual chapter.

Sara:

Which is not helpful.

Lilly:

No, it's not.

Sara:

No one cares about that information.

Lilly:

Not at all. But I noticed when I exited out of the book, I had to leave the book entirely, but then it would show me what percentage I was through the whole thing. So, very minor. Oh, and now when I tap on annotations, it takes me to that part of the book, which it has not always done.

Sara:

Oh, that is, that is also an improvement.

Lilly:

Vast improvement.

Sara:

I have a not really book related but semi related experience too, but much briefer. Two of the footnotes were mixed up when I clicked on them.

Lilly:

Oh no,

Sara:

Which was, I mean, like I could figure out what was going on, but yeah, there were two that were switched.

Lilly:

you're not using the same app I am, are you? Okay.

Sara:

I'm using the, um, the Kindle app for my phone.

Lilly:

And then we can complain about all

Sara:

Yeah. And it's, it's funny because like when you go to the end of the book, and so normally with the Kindle app, like if you click on the footnote, it actually brings it up, it doesn't take you to that spot in the book, but when you finish the book and you go through and you can see all of the footnotes, those were in the right order. It was just that the linking was off.

Lilly:

Interesting. I will say, the footnotes were in the correct order for this book. However, on this app, it just brings you to the footnotes page, and all of them are just asterisks.

Sara:

Not helpful.

Lilly:

You have to keep track of which one you're on in the page, which is like a little bit more mental capacity than I have right now. A

Sara:

That is kind of terrible.

Lilly:

little bit. But there aren't a ton of footnotes in this book, so.

Sara:

Yeah. Speaking of mental capacity, because I know things are a little rough for you right now, how did you do with the beginning of the book?

Lilly:

I honestly thought I had skipped a book. I pulled up the calendar and was like, Is this the one we're on? What is happening?

Sara:

For listeners who have not read Wintersmith, Wintersmith starts with a scene from the very end of the book, or from the end of like, everything that's happened, and then we kind of go back to the beginning after that, and so it is, it can be a little confusing, because there's no indication that you're being dropped in at the end of the story.

Lilly:

And I feel like this is not something that Pratchett has done too much in Discworld.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't think it is.

Lilly:

And maybe, I don't know. He throws in foreshadowing, for sure, but not, like, it's an entire scene from the climax of the book that we just get at the beginning.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

We don't see it again at the end. It's just like, and then you know what happens.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Which, I did. And when you start seeing the, like, the bits and pieces that you remember from the first, I guess it's not a spoiler because it's the first chapter. But we know that her little brother, her youngest brother, is in danger. And when there's just a line with, like, he wants to do what big kids do, you're like, oh fuck, that's right. Oh no! And the, like, immediate dread just from that really innocuous line, because we know what's gonna happen, was, like, very well done.

Sara:

Yeah, I actually, I mean, for all that it is kind of confusing, and I definitely spent a moment thinking, Wait, I'm not forgetting something from the end of the last book, am I? And then I realized, no, this is just what this book does. So for all that it's confusing, I actually kind of like it because it is different and it does set the stakes immediately. Where if you didn't have that beginning scene, you spend a lot of the book going, Oh, it's not actually so bad. Like the stakes aren't actually that high. Everyone is just kind of making a big deal out of it. But because you do see the danger immediately, you're like, Oh no, shit's going to be bad if Tiffany doesn't fix it.

Lilly:

Yeah. And, I mean, for all that it was confusing, it explains very quickly what's going on.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

It's not like, uh, you have to struggle through it for any amount of time. I was just really not expecting it, and so I had to sort of recalibrate. But it was a very cool way of doing it, and like you said, it allows the almost charming hijinks of the Wintersmith who gets a crush on Tiffany and tries to impress her by doing things like carving glaciers into her shape and writing her name in frost on windows. And it's just like, kind of cute and silly, but you have this in the back of your head the whole time of like, he's gonna end up killing people eventually.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And, again, a lot of that feels like spoilers, except the book starts with it.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Okay, nothing to do with the Wintersmith, but I know how much you love Granny. And she is very excellent in the Tiffany Aching books. Still prickly in a way that I don't really respect, but excellent overall. However, at one point, Tiffany gives her a little kitten, and she locks the kitten out. And I was like, I'm gonna climb into this book and fight you, Granny.

Sara:

She

Lilly:

I don't care if you're too cool for school. Don't, like, lock a baby outside because you think it, like, will ruin your image.

Sara:

She only locks the cat out until Tiffany goes away.

Lilly:

I know, it, it, she redeems herself very quickly, and then is clearly enamored by the kitten in her own way.

Sara:

mean, she carries the cat around on her head, under her hat.

Lilly:

It becomes adorable. But, in that moment, I was just like, oh no.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's fair. The, like, the first time that I read this book, because this is a reread for me, the first time I read this book, I had the same response. I was like, Granny, I love you, but you, you can't treat cats that way. You can't treat pets that way. And I was, I was also ready to throw hands, and then she made it better.

Lilly:

Well, as this is a Tiffany Aching book, and we get, you know, the continuation of her education as a witch. We did still get the being a witch sure is thankless work revelation, again. And I feel like she's had this every book so far. And I guess that's just for the reader, in case they haven't read the other ones. I don't know. But it's getting a little old.

Sara:

I mean, okay, I disagree, but I don't entirely disagree. I don't think that she has that revelation in this book. I think that revelation was firmly a hat full of sky. And she knows that. But part of this book is essentially teaching that to another witch. So as the reader, we get that revelation again, but it's not Tiffany who's having it.

Lilly:

I guess I'm talking about something that happened in Chapter 3. Maybe it's more, I think in Chapter 3 it is just for the reader's benefit. Can't give you a page number, the downside of ebooks.

Sara:

Do you have the quote?

Lilly:

Of course this is stupid, she told herself, but being a witch is stupid. Why do we do it? It's hard work for not much reward. What's a good day for mistreason? When someone brings her a second hand pair of old boots that fit properly, what does she know about anything?

Sara:

Yeah, see, I think that that is for the reader. And especially because this is aimed at young adults, and so the messaging is a little more heavy handed than sometimes.

Lilly:

Yeah, I think that's to remind the reader that that's where Tiffany's at.

Sara:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lilly:

because we've read these, and I feel like we've had quite a few Tiffany Aching books, not in a row, but

Sara:

Well, they be I mean, obviously they become more frequent at the end. Like, we are definitely in the last, firmly in the last 10 books of the series. I think Wintersmith is actually 35 of 41.

Lilly:

so unlike the City Watch books, for example, which I feel like are very spread out,

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Tiffany, I feel

Sara:

They're concentrated.

Lilly:

and so I've read them and so I actually remember what's happening.

Sara:

And so you're like, I don't need this reminder. Thank you.

Lilly:

yeah,

Sara:

Yeah, I think that's fair. And again, there is a certain amount of that messaging in this book. But for the most part, I think that it's, I would be more frustrated if Tiffany was having that realization all over again. But I think for the most part, it's her impressing on Anna Grandma. Yeah. That that's the case?

Lilly:

yes. And I love Anagramma's character arc in this. That part doesn't bother me at all. It was just at the beginning there, and I do think that was for the reader's benefit, but I was kind of like, Tiffany, I know this, you know this, why are you telling me?

Sara:

Yeah, I think that's just young adult novel.

Lilly:

More ketchup than I needed. Okay, so speaking of witches, is every witch's name a pun, or just mystics?

Sara:

I think it's just Mystic, basically.

Lilly:

Because I've definitely, like, stopped on every single witch's name and gone. Mis tree son. Mis tree son. Mysteryson? Trying to figure it out, I couldn't.

Sara:

Yeah, I don't, I mean, I think that there are some witches that have pun names, obviously, as in Mystic. But I don't think all of them do.

Lilly:

Yeah, okay. Mystery son is pretty good, though. I think I found something.

Sara:

Mystery Sun is excellent. I think you've cracked the code.

Lilly:

What does it mean? I don't know.

Sara:

But you've cracked it.

Lilly:

Mistick does continue to suck, though.

Sara:

She does, kind of, and I feel like it shouldn't necessarily be a surprise. Terry Pratchett did kind of have an issue with teachers, which is brought up kind of a lot in the biography that Rob Wilkins wrote, and I think is evident in the way that he handles a lot of the biography. teacher characters that show up in the Discworld books, particularly with Miss Tic. She's kind of really smug about knowing things, and not in a fun way.

Lilly:

And in a completely unjustified way. Because so is Granny. Cool. Let's be real. Granny is also super smug,

Sara:

Okay, yes.

Lilly:

but she can back it up.

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

Miss Tick is wrong half the time,

Sara:

yes,

Lilly:

but still continues to be, like, so self assured and just like a total ass.

Sara:

I think the thing that what differentiates Mystic from Granny, besides the teaching profession, is that Granny knows things because of what she has seen and experienced, and she is willing to change her opinion. Based on the evidence. She doesn't have a lot of book learning. She doesn't have any book learning. Whereas Miss Tick doesn't look at what's in front of her eyes, she says this is what I know, so it must be true.

Lilly:

Which is literally the antithesis of a witch. as we have learned them in Discworld, so it doesn't even make sense.

Sara:

I mean, Miss Tick is more of a witch finder. I guess she is a witch, but, I don't know, she has never struck me as particularly witchy.

Lilly:

I mean, she makes the shambles, and we've seen her do some witching, but yeah, she's a really bad witch by the definition that this world has built.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

But she tells a really good joke, and then is all smug because she, quote, likes being smarter than other people because the person she told it to didn't get it, and I was just like, oh.

Sara:

Yeah, like, you almost had a moment there.

Lilly:

Speaking of joyless fun suckers,

Sara:

Wives, huh?

Lilly:

oh man, this whole book. There's a conversation about marriage with the fegals and my comment was, I am become wife destroyer of fun.

Sara:

Yeah, they talk a lot about the pursing of the lips, and the tapping of the feet, and the demanding of an explanation. And we've gone on at length, ad nauseum, in other episodes about how much we don't care for this. tired stereotype of marriage. And that remains true, I think, in this book. Like, marriage is not, or should not be, the wife demanding an explanation when the husband is off having fun. Like, it's a partnership. So we get a lot more of that stereotype with the Knack McFeagle.

Lilly:

or maybe if your wife is that mad, she could have a point.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

Maybe she's not doing it just to harsh your vibe.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

It's just, yeah, very predictable and brings nothing new. To the story, uh, it was just like a whole diversion of why would people even want to get married?

Sara:

It's also, like, I wouldn't even mind if it didn't bring anything new, but it's just, Just really, I don't know, dated? Not true? Like, not funny?

Lilly:

Well, yeah, but it's not funny and also did nothing for the story. It was just like a pointless page or two for this joke that went nowhere, accomplishes nothing. It's just there to be funny and then isn't. This is the worst of both worlds.

Sara:

Yes. It is kind of the worst of all possible worlds.

Lilly:

But that aside, I really loved this book. We can't talk about any of the fun parts in the non spoiler section.

Sara:

Yeah, all of the fun conversation is gonna be in the spoiler section, but I do really enjoy the Tiffany Aching books. I think they are readable even as an adult, readable and relatable even as an adult, and Tiffany as a heroine is fun to follow. Like, sometimes you read a young adult book and you think, okay, I recognize that I would have liked this book when I was the right age, but I'm not the right age. And I just find this character annoying. And that's not the case for Tiffany.

Lilly:

Yeah. But she also doesn't feel like the precocious 40 year old in a 10 year old's body. Isn't it funny that this small child is so eloquent?

Sara:

Yeah. She, she acts her age and we will, again, we'll have a conversation about that in the spoiler section, but you do believe that she is 13 in this book.

Lilly:

There's more romance in this book. Not like actual romance, but discussion of the concept of romance, maybe?

Sara:

Yes. Tiffany maybe likes boys.

Lilly:

And boys may be like her,

Sara:

Also, yes.

Lilly:

and might be willing to freeze over the entire world to impress her.

Sara:

I mean, you know, who can blame her for being a little bit swayed by that?

Lilly:

I, yeah, okay, we got it, we gotta get to the spoiler section so we can talk about this more. Who should read this book? Better question, can you start here? You might be able to, but if you were going to, I'd say still start with the first Tiffany Aching book.

Sara:

Yeah, I think technically you can. You do get context for some of the things that happened in the previous two books, but I think you should start with the first Tiffany Aching book.

Lilly:

Overall, I'd say this book mostly stands on its own. But it does talk about her connection to the Chalk, the region where she's from, quite a bit.

Sara:

It also talks about Dr. Bustle and how he's a voice in her head and translates things for her.

Lilly:

Yeah, but it's, it's like, oh, yeah, she has a voice in her head and you can go, okay.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, and that has enough of an explanation, but like,

Lilly:

And the plot doesn't rest on that in the same way that, like, the chalk is in her bones, they say a lot. And if you haven't read the first one, that's a bad reason. You do need a whole book to justify that statement.

Sara:

Yes. And the first one does provide that justification.

Lilly:

Yes, it does.

Sara:

So yes, I think if you're interested in reading the Tiffany Aching books, yes, you can start here. I think you should start with the first one, but you're not going to be too lost if you skip to Wintersmith. But why, why would you? I mean,

Lilly:

They're so fast to read, and they've all been good. It's not like the beginning ones are weak, like some of the miniseries.

Sara:

yeah, I mean, by this point, I think the first Tiffany Aching book was book number 30 or something. It was indeed book number 30. So, by this point, Pratchett knows what he's doing. It's a good book.

Lilly:

A few weeks ago, we did a Patreon drive, and one of the rewards was a series of patron shoutouts. Our final shoutout is for Betsy. Thank you, Betsy!

Sara:

1 patrons get access to weekly bonus content, like our games of Shoot, Screw, or Marry, played with characters from the books we discuss on the podcast. And 5 patrons also get monthly exclusive episodes that cover everything from adaptations to additional books.

Lilly:

Check it out at patreon. com slash fictionfanspod. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Tiffany is the 13 iest, 13-year-old girl who has ever 13.

Sara:

Tiffany is such a 13 year old girl, but I actually kind of love it

Lilly:

No, that's a compliment.

Sara:

exactly. It is a compliment because like, I don't always believe books when they tell me characters are in their early teens. And to be fair, I didn't necessarily believe the earlier books when they told me she was nine and eleven.

Lilly:

Yeah, that was too young.

Sara:

Yeah, but like, here Pratchett sells it. Tiffany is a 13 year old girl with everything that entails.

Lilly:

She's a little too self-Aware. Or maybe the book is a little too self aware. But maybe that's the witchy aspect of it.

Sara:

Yeah, like I'm, I'm willing to file that under. Tiffany is a witch. She's a young witch. But she is a witch and she's pretty good at it for all that she's 13.

Lilly:

She can tell when she's being 13.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

if I could tell I was being 13 when I was 13, I would have died.

Sara:

Except she can't always tell, for example, in the sphere of romance. She's not always aware when she's crushing on someone or when they're crushing on her.

Lilly:

No, absolutely. But she is always, like, immediately downplaying it? That's not exactly the right word. Deprioritizing it. in a way that I think a 13 year old with a crush would not necessarily have the acumen to do.

Sara:

Okay, that's, that's fair. I mean, for me, I kind of view that as Tiffany, I don't want to say that she's sheltered because she's not. I mean, she lives on a working farm and she understands quite a bit about life, but I don't think that she's necessarily got a good handle on interpersonal relationships. And so She doesn't actually recognize that she and Roland kind of have a thing. It takes her a while to recognize that the Wintersmith has a crush on her. Like, she's, she's very practical, I guess is what I'm getting at.

Lilly:

No, that level of obliviousness is fine. Obliviousness, absolutely spot on for a 13 year old. It's, okay. Roland is writing her letters. His life is kind of falling apart, so he's only telling her the good stuff. And at one point, he includes that he went to a ball, he danced with the host's daughter, and she showed him her watercolors.

Sara:

Iodine,

Lilly:

Yeah, iodine. And Tiffany, like, absolutely freaks the fuck out. Like, how dare this girl show him her watercolors?

Sara:

Okay,

Lilly:

And that was incredible. But then she immediately Like, talks herself down, and is like, it's just watercolors. It doesn't actually mean anything, and I know I'm overreacting, but I get to overreact. And that moment was like, so extremely self aware.

Sara:

that's, that's fair. That's fair. I do love, though, that it gets us a scene with Anoia, the goddess of rattling drawers, where they commiserate over sharing watercolors, or being shown someone else's watercolors, and her complaining about rain gods raining on her lava.

Lilly:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

That, that is one of my favorite scenes in this book.

Lilly:

Well, I love how everyone takes it seriously.

Sara:

Yes,

Lilly:

And then, Roland absolutely, like, reverses it because he sends her a watercolor set. So cute.

Sara:

that is cute. I will say that I really enjoy the trajectory of Tiffany's relationship with Roland.

Lilly:

Absolutely. You nailed it. I was really unhappy with it in the first book, and I stand by that. It's not great in the first book. Cause she's 11 and he's, like, 14 or something.

Sara:

No, that's the second

Lilly:

That's the second book? Okay, so it's even worse. And there's not a, they don't interact a lot in the first book. They just kind of flirt a little at the end, but that's still pretty eye rolly. And his character is awful in the first book. He also has a great character arc.

Sara:

he does.

Lilly:

We don't see a lot of it, but this book is very good for him.

Sara:

Yeah. And there's a lot that I want to talk about in regards to the relationship that I can't because it's spoilers for the next two books or maybe just the next book. I actually can't remember. So I'm not gonna get into it, but just, like, put a pin in it. We will be talking about, more about this in later discussions.

Lilly:

Well, I did not have high hopes because I feel like love interests have been pretty hit or miss And I think it's interesting that when it's a male love interest, he gets like an entire action scene and plot arc in the book.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

But, I do really like Roland. He comes around, he's believable. There's also a really great moment where Tiffany is considering the fact, I think in my notes I put conversation, but she's just thinking to herself, so it doesn't really count as a conversation. Of course her and Roland are interested in each other because there's literally no one else they can be interested in. Because of the weird power imbalances. He's the son of the Lord, and she's a witch, and so all of the other kids, like, don't treat them like equals anymore.

Sara:

Yeah, I thought that was really well done. And very believable too, like, of course Tiffany is gonna be treated differently now that she's a witch and viewed as a witch by her community. And of course that's going to affect her like, romantic prospects.

Lilly:

Yeah. And luckily, the son of the Lord is Roland, and that's Roland from the first book, Who Sucked.

Sara:

Yes, I mean, Roland from the first book did have extenuating circumstances. He'd been trapped by the Queen of Elves or whatever for a year and, you know, was high off his mind on sweets and he'd been through some stuff. So I'm willing to give him a little bit of a pass. But

Lilly:

I mean, yeah.

Sara:

I do also like, going back to our discussion of, about Tiffany being very 13, I do also like that she thinks she's outsmarting Granny all of the time in this book. And sometimes she does genuinely, like, get one over on Granny, like with you, the cat, but Granny is canny and knows what she's doing. And at the end is like, yeah, actually, you were doing what I expected you would do all along. And I still get to feel superior to Mrs. Earwig.

Lilly:

To be fair, no. At the end, Tiffany says, Hey, I think you meant for me to do what I did all along, just so you could feel superior to Mrs. Earwig.

Sara:

Yeah, okay. Tiffany is the one who makes that

Lilly:

She figures it out eventually.

Sara:

we don't know if it's actually true, but

Lilly:

Oh, it's definitely

Sara:

it's definitely true.

Lilly:

But Granny would never come out and say that.

Sara:

No, Granny would never. But I do like that we get Tiffany feeling like she's pulling one over on the adults and then not actually, because that, again, that feels very true to being a 13 year old girl.

Lilly:

Yeah. Or a 13 year old. Any 13

Sara:

Yeah, a 13 year old, but Tiffany is a 13 year old girl. Yeah.

Lilly:

We also see Nanny a lot more in this book than we have in the previous Tiffany Aching. I mean, we don't see either of them very much in the first one.

Sara:

Yeah, and Nanny does show up briefly in the second book, I believe, but

Lilly:

She has, like, barely a cameo. She's actually a character in this book.

Sara:

yeah. Granny has kind of been the main witch of our witch trio that we see in these books up until now. And that changes with this, where we get a lot of Nanny.

Lilly:

I'd still say Granny is the main one. I mean, she's still the head witch.

Sara:

Well, Granny's always been the main one, but we do get a lot more of Nanny in this book than we have in previous

Lilly:

yes. I don't know if we get more than we get grainy though.

Sara:

No, I, that wasn't what I meant to imply.

Lilly:

Okay, but this is a really good book for her. We get to see her being kind to Tiffany when Tiffany is like done fucked up. We get to see her witching, which we don't see that much. Because let's be honest, when Granny and Nanny are around, which one of them is doing witch stuff? It's Granny.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

So, Tiffany aching, staying with Nanny, and following her on her witch duties. We actually get to see Nanny, like, be really good at what she does, which we don't see very much. She's often played for laughs, and she still is. She's still raunchy, but she doesn't talk down to Tiffany too much. I mean, she does a little bit. She's an adult. They always do. And then also, Tiffany got to see a different witch lifestyle. Because I don't think any of the other adult witches that Tiffany has learned from have had relationships.

Sara:

Yeah, I think most of the witches that we see Tiffany learn from are kind of in that granny stereotype of a single witch in a cottage.

Lilly:

Well, because they're all the witch stereotype of scary old lady who lives alone. And I mean, I'm only speaking vaguely because it's possible they were married before. But they're, like, by the time Tiffany's learning from them, they're all single.

Sara:

and I'm pretty sure that it's explicitly said that mistreason wasn't. I think that the witch that she learns from in A Hatful of Sky had a relationship, but it didn't work out.

Lilly:

Because of the whole twins thing.

Sara:

Or possibly it was just a miscommunication, but for whatever reason it didn't work out, yeah.

Lilly:

But as far as lifestyles go, I think it was really, like, if Tiffany was a real kid, it would be very good for her to see that, you know, there's more than one way to do this.

Sara:

Yes, especially because Tiffany does kind of defy some of the witch stereotypes. Even as a child, like, she doesn't like to wear black, for example. I mean, I think that's the only thing, really, but,

Lilly:

No, because she very much emulates her grandmother, or I should say admires her grandmother, who was not a witch of this culture. She wasn't even part of that community, right? At least as far as we know.

Sara:

I mean, explicitly, yeah, she was not part of the community.

Lilly:

And so, it's very, have, is it implied, or does Tiffany come out and say that she intends to live in the chalk and be a sheep witch like her grandmother was? She's just in Lancre for learning. I'm pretty sure that's explicit.

Sara:

I think that's explicit, yeah. And like, yeah, Tiffany does, like, intend to have romantic relationships, and she intends to, you know, be part of her local community, which is different from the Lanker communities. I mean, they, they do have kind of different cultures because they're from different places.

Lilly:

Yeah. And so I feel like Nanny is Well, personality wise, nothing like her grandmother, but, as far as witching style goes,

Sara:

I don't even know that I would say Nanny is particularly like granny aching, but I think that Nanny does show Tiffany that there are different ways of being a witch that are just as effective and just as valuable to the community. Like you don't have to fit this one very strict mold.

Lilly:

especially because so much of the witching that Tiffany has learned is based off of the story, right? You make them believe that you are a big, powerful witch, and then they will act like you are, and that's, like, where a lot of the power comes from. Hedology, as some of the early witch books have called it. And so, like, there are ways of navigating that social hierarchy without just being isolated.

Sara:

Yeah, without having to send off to Ankh Morpork for a fake nose and fake cobwebs, things like that.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

I will say though, yes, I loved seeing more of Nanny in this book, even though I like Granny better. I do still love Nanny, but I'm still not a fan of how she treats her daughters in law. That comes up in this book again, and I'm like, Please Pratchett, stop with this.

Lilly:

is so funny, because that's how Granny treats everybody.

Sara:

Yes, but I don't, I don't mind it when it's like, equal opportunity. Everyone. But Nanny specifically targets her daughters in law.

Lilly:

Yeah, and there's no, like, Nanny doesn't only have sons. So what, where are her sons in law? Are they also at her beck and call? They should be.

Sara:

I'm not sure if she has daughters.

Lilly:

Really? They certainly, we certainly never hear about them. I bet she does, and they're just like, sad and in the corner.

Sara:

I think there's the only sons that, there's Sean, and I think there's Jason. I think Jason is the blacksmith and Sean is the uh, kind of do everything at the castle. I don't know.

Lilly:

Those are the only named children, but it's always implied that she has a gaggle of them.

Sara:

It is always implied she has a gaggle.

Lilly:

Because she has a troupe of daughters in law, so she has to have more than two sons. Otherwise, apparently there's polyamory.

Sara:

Maybe her sons are just polyamorous, who knows?

Lilly:

How would they convince multiple women to marry them, so they could be subservient to their mother? How would you even sell that?

Sara:

Genuinely, I'm not sure how any of her children sells that within the community unless they marry outside. Because don't the women in that town have eyes?

Lilly:

And conceive how nanny treats people? Yeah.

Sara:

I mean like, Nanny's great, unless you're her daughter in law.

Lilly:

Yeah, so Anna Gramma has been set up as a sort of mean girl rival for Tiffany since book one. No, book

Sara:

Book two.

Lilly:

We don't meet her in book one. Yeah. And that's always been very satisfying. It just, the mean girl character is very compelling and she hasn't been So over the top that it's bothered me. I mean, she's very ridiculous and over the top, but just in, like, regular ways.

Sara:

She's not been such a bully that you don't enjoy the relationship.

Lilly:

And, like, while there are times when, like, Tiffany is genuinely really upset, Tiffany also has enough times that she sees through it, that you don't just feel like she's always getting kicked.

Sara:

Yes. You feel like Tiffany allows Anna Gramma to have the upper hand a lot of the times.

Lilly:

Especially in this book. This book, Oh my god, Anna Grandma so got her comeuppance, and it was so satisfying. Tiffany earned it, and she handled it so gracefully, it was such the, like, almost a revenge fantasy played out.

Sara:

I really enjoy Anna Gramma's character arc over the course of these two books, you know, A Hatful of Sky and Wintersmith, because we see Anna Gramma go from this very,

Lilly:

She's a fake witch, know it all.

Sara:

Yeah, like, Mrs. Earwig does a very wizard y kind of magic, and Anna Grandma, as her only student, consequently, does that too, and thinks that she knows it all. And then we see her thrust into a situation where she's in charge of a cottage now, and she has to deal with the ordinary lives of all of the villagers. And she realizes that she doesn't belong there. know anything, but she doesn't want to admit it. So Tiffany gets everyone to help her, and Anagram accepts their help while still not admitting that she needs help. But she does actually grow and kind of becomes, like, genuinely a good witch. And I, I really enjoyed seeing that, like, it was very satisfying to read.

Lilly:

And her personality doesn't change. She's still not kind to Tiffany. But, she's a little bit less full of herself. I mean, she still acts full of herself, but you have to. You're a witch.

Sara:

She, she does, but also, like, she is there for Tiffany when Tiffany Needs it, and doesn't realize it. And I think that it's really telling. When Tiffany goes around trying to, like, get the other witches or apprentice witches in their group to help Anna Grandma, they're all like, Well, we wouldn't have done it because she doesn't actually like us. Like, she's not our friend. She just kind of is mean to us and looks down on us. But we'll do it for you, Tiffany. And I think it's telling that Tiffany is still willing to do that and then that's reciprocated with Anna Grandma standing up to the Wintersmith for Tiffany.

Lilly:

Yeah, and her coming around and being an ally was really what made that arc for me. Because if it was just, mean girl gets her comeuppance, like, is put in her place and needs to ask for help, like, wounding her pride, that would have been, you know, you know, guilty pleasure enjoyable. But because it comes around to mutual respect, it makes it feel a lot better to enjoy the first part?

Sara:

Well, and, and Anna Grandma has no idea what the situation with the Wintersmith is. She doesn't know who the Wintersmith is at all. She just sees that Tiffany is uncomfortable and this dude is bothering her and she's like, no, that's not cool. I'm going to throw fireballs at him until he leaves.

Lilly:

And that's girl code.

Sara:

Yes. Like, it's not a typical friendship, but, uh, it works.

Lilly:

No, but that's the thing, right? The whole book, we see the adult witches interacting. And the narrative is always, the more polite they are, the more they dislike each other, kind of thing. And so it sort of feels like these two young women have reached that point. Like, they're co workers, or colleagues more than co workers. They need to be able to rely on each other when they need help. They don't have to like each other, they don't have to hang out, but they've gotten to that point where they can help and support each other and just leave it at that.

Sara:

Well, I think it's really interesting to see the relationship of the older witches, where it is very much, we'll be polite, but that's a sign that we don't like each other. and contrast that with the younger witches in, I'll call it the coven, because they call it a coven, who I think genuinely do like and respect each other. And it makes me wonder just how much That generation of witches would be different from the previous generation when the previous generation is gone.

Lilly:

I agree with everything you just said, but it did make me realize how contrived it is. That there's an entire generation of women, 50 plus, and then there's a bunch of teenagers, and no one in between!

Sara:

Maybe, maybe the in between have just gone off somewhere, somewhere,

Lilly:

Okay.

Sara:

or maybe the previous generation is, yeah, no, I got nothing.

Lilly:

There's not really generations. If you're just waiting for someone who is good at being a witch, they would just pop up occasionally, you'd think.

Sara:

You would, you would think.

Lilly:

So that's a little But it's fine. It wasn't so bad that it bothered me until you just said it that way, and then I was like, That doesn't actually make any sense.

Sara:

I mean, that's no, that's not actually how like workplaces work and the workforce works.

Lilly:

mean, they're witches. That doesn't have to be, like, the workforce. But if they were just, unless you're telling me that for 50 years, no one in all of Discworld was born with the propensity to be a witch, then that would be kind of terrifying. What happened?

Sara:

Maybe they all decided that other fields were more lucrative.

Lilly:

They all married kings.

Sara:

Yes. I mean, Magrat does, so.

Lilly:

That was the joke, yes. I feel like Miss Tick kind of takes the place of that third punching bag witch in this book. Not officially, but we see her the most interacting with Granny and Nanny, and she's definitely the like, young dumb one.

Sara:

You know, I hadn't thought of it that way until you said that, but I do think you're right. I do think she is kind of the third in the trio in these books.

Lilly:

And then of course there's all of the independent witches who Tiffany lives with and learns from, but they're not like, working with Granny and Nanny the same way.

Sara:

Yeah. And I don't think that Miss Tick works with Granny and Nanny in the same way that Magrat did, or that um, what was her name, Agnes did. But also, this is not, a granny and nanny book. So it makes sense that we don't see that collaboration in the same way

Lilly:

And I don't get the sense that they normally do. I think just because there are the extreme circumstances of this book, Mystic has sort of shown up because Winter is going nuts.

Sara:

Yeah

Lilly:

so we just see the three of them working together to try to help Tiffany help herself.

Sara:

but you're you're right. She does slot into that space which Pratchett has been very clear about making in the previous witch books

Lilly:

You know, we do have a bullet point here. About how sad I am about the character, the Wintersmith, who this book is ostensibly about.

Sara:

We do

Lilly:

But it's really just, this book was really sweet and sad.

Sara:

It was and I I really enjoy the Wintersmith's character through it, like, he spends a lot of time not understanding humanity, he wants to be a man because Tiffany is human, he tries to be sweet and mostly succeeds, but also kind of fails because he's the personification of Winter, and then at the end, she defeats him in a very satisfying but sad way by kissing him.

Lilly:

She kills him with a kiss, which is like, really bittersweet.

Sara:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And then at the end end, when she gives the, the Morris dancers, who sort of pantomime the changing of the seasons, and the what started this whole thing by her stepping in and then making the Seasons think she was one of them. And she makes a, a ring for herself out of the nail that she got from the Wintersmith's remains and then gives the nail to, like, as a tip to the dancers and it's kind of implied that the Wintersmith's spirit is Received it.

Sara:

Yeah, it was, it was the fool who was going around asking for tips. And you're right, it is implied that for a moment it's the Wintersmith.

Lilly:

And it's like, I don't know. This entity got confused. And liked her. And tried to impress her. And did it bad. And didn't really understand what was going on.

Sara:

I don't know if I would say he did it bad, because she was quite impressed for a lot of the

Lilly:

She was not wooed. How's that?

Sara:

She wasn't wooed, but she was impressed.

Lilly:

Maybe that's the problem. He wanted to impress her, but wanted the result of wooing.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

And it wasn't just, wow, you're the biggest and the strongest and therefore I shall marry you.

Sara:

Yeah. Can we also talk just a little bit about how I really appreciated that even though there's this kind of subplot where the Knack McFeagle need to find a hero who will bring Summer back, and they find Roland and he does bring Summer back, that's still separate from Tiffany defeating

Lilly:

was very glad because when it was fixing up that Roland was going to go rescue the true Lady Summer, I was like, come on, Tiffany doesn't even get, doesn't even get the big scene in her own fucking book. So when she got her own, I was like, okay, okay, okay, I'm okay.

Sara:

Yeah, like, like, I can appreciate Roland going on that quest only because Tiffany is the one who defeats The Wintersmith. And so, yes, Roland brings the summer back, but Tiffany did a lot of the hard work.

Lilly:

Yeah. And it's, at one point, does he say it in his head or to the feagles? That, well, she went on a quest to rescue me, so I, I have to do this.

Sara:

Uh, yeah, I, I don't remember if that's in his head or if it's actually stated out loud, but it is, it is cute.

Lilly:

Yeah, this book was just very, very sad and sweet. There's just a lot of emotions. The Tiffany aching books have all been, I think it's because they're so personal. In a way that a lot of the Discworld novels aren't.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I think that they do benefit from that younger age range. Like, I, I think that that meant that Pratchett focused more on the individual and less on the kind of grander scheme of things.

Lilly:

Mm, yeah. He chose to make them personal because they're for a younger audience, not being for a younger audience made them personal. Uh,

Sara:

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Lilly:

there's less spectacle.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

It's not like, Look at all the bonkers stuff I can do! Which is delightful.

Sara:

I do think that he tones down some of the ridiculousness of Discworld for these books.

Lilly:

Yeah, they have a very different tone. Very different tone.

Sara:

We get some of that kind of more in the background than the foreground with these.

Lilly:

It makes it a very different reading experience. One that I quite enjoy, but very different from the other Discworld books.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I, like, I love all of the Discworld books, but I love these too.

Lilly:

I mean, it's just that question of, like, mood reading, right? Are you in the mood to sniffle a little bit or chuckle a little bit?

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

You'll probably do both for either, but, like, which one's the focus?

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

Yeah, very, very good book.

Sara:

Yeah. I think that Wintersmith I'd only read once. I'm pretty sure that the Tiffany Aching books I'd only read once. So, I've enjoyed re reading these for the podcast. I mean, I've enjoyed re reading everything for the podcast, but,

Lilly:

Are there other witch books after Tiffany Aching is introduced?

Sara:

no. The last full witch book was Carpe Ugulam.

Lilly:

With the witches, I mean, obviously Granny and Nanny were established early. Granny was established super early.

Sara:

Book four? No, book three.

Lilly:

I mean, two, right?

Sara:

No, book three.

Lilly:

Well, not two, but

Sara:

Equal Rights is number three.

Lilly:

Yeah, I know, but Color of Magic and Light Fantastic are kind of combined in my head. As the series has gone on, Pratchett has sort of played with who their third should be. And it seems like, I mean, obviously Tiffany's not their third, but having them in this role and having Tiffany be the main character has felt really good for them.

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I do think that as Discworld as a series has progressed, Pratchett has kind of told the stories that he wanted to tell with all of the characters. And so, the characters that he utilizes in the later books are not the characters that he told stories with in the beginning of the series. You know, like, we don't see any full witch book after 1998.

Lilly:

so, okay. My argument, however, is that saying that Wintersmith is not a full witch book, is purely because Tiffany Aching is in it.

Sara:

Well, yeah.

Lilly:

Because it has the co like, it's got the, the coven, we've got Nanny and Granny. It's all about witches. The only reason why it's not considered a witches book is because the witches series became the Tiffany Aching series.

Sara:

Yes, yes. But, but I, I don't think that we're disagreeing with each other. I, I think that our points are kind of dovetailing. Like, I'm saying that he told the stories that he wanted to with Nanny and Granny and their ever changing third, and now he's telling the stories with Tiffany Aching. And yes, we still get some of the witch characters, but the focus of the series has morphed.

Lilly:

I guess. I The focus of the early books were always on the third person, though.

Sara:

I would disagree because the third person, except maybe in Carpe Ugulam, I would not say that the third person was the main character.

Lilly:

What about Masquerade?

Sara:

Okay, Masquerade, yes. I will admit to that one.

Lilly:

And I even like, Lords and Ladies.

Sara:

No, Lords and Ladies, I think was very much

Lilly:

you think it's purely granny?

Sara:

purely Granny, obviously there are other characters. But I think it was very much a Granny book.

Lilly:

Well, I'm saying that the witch dynamic we are continuing to see in this book specifically. The first Tiffany Aching book, no, obviously. But the second and third one really do just feel like a witch book to me. And it just happens to be called Tiffany Aching through a quirk of definitions.

Sara:

Because Tiffany Aching is the main character, not Granny and Nanny.

Lilly:

Yeah, except plenty of the witch books had a different main character.

Sara:

I wouldn't say plenty.

Lilly:

isn't an Agnes book.

Sara:

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say plenty.

Lilly:

Yeah, but them being the main character is not the defining quality.

Sara:

Two of them.

Lilly:

Yeah, and if those are considered witch books, then so should Wintersmith.

Sara:

Actually, I think Carpe Ugulam may be the main character for that with Granny still.

Lilly:

Okay, we have to talk about how we're defining main character,

Sara:

We do.

Lilly:

and we can argue about that later.

Sara:

Probably not this discussion.

Lilly:

That's another one where I think we would have to read this mini series all in a row to properly have a conversation about, because we haven't read the beginning witch books in a very long time.

Sara:

Okay, so what you're saying is that when we finish our Discworld reread, we are going to go back and do mini series discussions.

Lilly:

Maybe.

Sara:

Okay, gotcha. I'll mark those off on the calendar.

Lilly:

Great. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara:

Bye!