Fiction Fans

Author Interview: The Hunter's Gambit by Ciel Pierlot

• Episode 146

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Your hosts are joined by Ciel Pierlot to talk about her latest novel, The Hunter's Gambit. They discuss vampire lore, equality in fantasy settings, and hot threeways. They also ask the ultimate question: do vampires count as monsterfcking?


Find more from Ciel:

https://x.com/CielPierlot 

https://www.instagram.com/cielpierlot/ 

https://cielpierlot.com/ 



Find us on discord / Support us on Patreon.

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License



Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I am so delighted to welcome author Ciel Pirlo back onto the podcast, this time to talk about her new vampire novel, The Hunter's Gambit. Welcome!

Ciel:

Hello. Hi. Thank you for having me.

Sara:

Thank you for coming on. We loved this book. It was excellent. So excited to talk about it.

Lilly:

But before we dive into that incredible conversation we have ahead of us, first, our introduction questions. What's something great that happened recently?

Sara:

I took a nap today. It was excellent.

Ciel:

Oh, that's, that's a good one. That's pretty good. Yeah.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Very needed. 10 out of 10. Would nap again.

Ciel:

Hopefully we'll nap again.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Definitely will nap again.

Ciel:

Let's see.

Lilly:

This is the hardest question on the whole podcast.

Ciel:

This is the hardest question. I'm like, as soon as people ask me, I'm like, I've never done anything in my life ever.

Lilly:

Yeah. I just spawned into existence just now.

Ciel:

I recently moved into a new place and I was very excited to find this place because the rent is only like 500 a month.

Lilly:

Jesus, where do you, like, are you in Antarctica?

Ciel:

I'm in a place in Canada and I am sharing a house with like three other people. So part of the reason it's cheap is because I have roommates. But yeah, great rent. Absolutely. If you're willing to live in a room with really short sloped ceilings. You can get such a huge discount and I'm short as hell. So it doesn't bother me.

Lilly:

perfect. My good thing is that my cats are high as hell right now. They're very sweet. They went to the vet today just to get their nails trimmed because we don't do that ourselves. And the vet actually called us. We have a gabapentin prescription for one of our cats because he is just so bad at car rides. It stresses him out so much. So they gave us a prescription to calm him down a little bit. And they called us and said, would you, uh, would you give that to your other cat too? So she doesn't attack us. So we did. And they got back about an hour ago and they are just absolutely zonked out. It's very cute.

Ciel:

They're having a good time.

Lilly:

Little stony balonies. What is everyone drinking tonight?

Sara:

Well it is a vampire novel, so I did feel compelled to open up a bottle of red wine.

Ciel:

Oh, a classic classic. Yeah. I just have a water bottle that I've filled with soda.

Sara:

Also excellent.

Lilly:

I am drinking the Laika, which is a mixed drink of fiction fans creation. We invented it as a drink pairing with Solstitia, our literary magazine that's coming out this week. And my husband was like, You have to actually try that before you print the recipe. You can't just print the recipe. And I was like, okay, fine.

Sara:

I do think that you mean that's already out, because by the time this episode is released it will be out.

Lilly:

Okay, yes, that's the one.

Ciel:

Yes. This episode is time traveling.

Sara:

Yes. Yes.

Lilly:

inspired by Yorsh, which my loose research told me is a mixed drink enjoyed in Russia that's just beer and vodka. We don't like beer, so our version is cider and vodka. It tastes like cider. It's good.

Ciel:

Pretty good. I agree. Cider is infinitely better than beer.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

That is my beverage of the evening. This is actually a book podcast, and other than the wonderful novel we're about to discuss at length, has anyone read anything good lately? Have

Sara:

author, Goodreads, Y is the percentage right over the author's name. Nana Kwame Adjei, something that starts with a B and I can't actually see it. And it's really good, but also a book that I have to read in short bursts because it's very, like, emotionally difficult. But, uh, yeah. I read that on the plane to Utah because I just got back from Utah, and then I read Hunter's Gambit on the plane back.

Ciel:

It's a good plane book.

Sara:

It is a good plane book. It kept me entertained. I was like, I need this plane ride to be longer, actually, so I can keep reading.

Ciel:

The one time in your life you're like, Yeah, I'd rather stay on the plane for a little bit more.

Sara:

Yep.

Ciel:

to normally where you're like, Let me out of here!

Sara:

Well, I got to, like, the 40 percent mark, and it, like, things were really starting to heat up, and I was like, I need, I can't just stop here.

Ciel:

I'm glad to hear it was captivating enough for a plane ride.

Sara:

Yes, absolutely.

Lilly:

you read anything lately?

Ciel:

I've been reading, it's an older series, it came out in the aughts, but a friend of mine recommended it to me recently. I've been reading The Fever Series by Karen Mremoning. It's very like, contemporary, paranormal, romance series. It's really good, I highly recommend it, I blew through the first five books, which is basically, I want to say the original series. There's like sequels to it that I haven't gotten to yet, but the original series, as it were, was really good. I was not expecting to like it as much as I did because I generally don't read a lot of contemporary, but yeah, really great. 10 out of 10 recommend.

Lilly:

Well, the only book I have read recently was The Hunter's Gambit, so let's dive in. CL, genre definitions are extremely personal and I feel like vary wildly from person to person. This is obviously a fantasy novel and there's romance in it, but I don't know if I would necessarily call it a romance novel and I was wondering what your opinion was on that.

Ciel:

So personally, I would definitely not call it a romance novel because I think the thing that defines a romance novel is, well, it's two things. The first is that the romance has to be the main plot. You know, there's like side plots, there's background characters that are doing their own thing, but the main plot is the will they won't they will they get together. plot. And the second thing that defines a romance novel is a happily ever after or a happily for now. And that has to be like the defining goal that you're working towards because romance readers want that. So I would not define this as a romance just because the romance is there, but it is not the main plot. I would define this as fantasy just because the general plot is kind of a fantasy plot. If you strip away like the spiciness, as it were, it's just a straight up fantasy. Fantasy plot. There's a new, like, mixed genre that's been, like, coming into common use lately that's romanticy, which is just, I think it's fantasy where the romance is spicier, as opposed to, like, some fantasy books where there's, you know, romance, but it's a little bit more bitter. background or it's a little more PG, as it were. So I've seen a lot of people use romanticy to define more, shall we say, adult fantasy novels. So I've been using romanticy occasionally to define Hunter's Gambit. Just cause, spoiler alert, it is a little spicy in places. Personally, I think that oftentimes really strict genre definitions can really help, but sometimes they can also hinder. So I do like that we're getting more hybrid genres, like space fantasy, romanticy, like that type of stuff where it kind of combines two to be like, no, it's in the middle. So yeah, I would define Hunter's Gambit as a fantasy first and a romanticy second.

Sara:

That's really interesting. I'd not considered it as a romanticy, but I think you're right, like, it definitely does fit that genre as well. And talking about the romance and the love interests, there are two of them. There's Adrius, who we meet very early on, and then Rhea, who we meet a little bit later. And they have kind of two very different introductions. Can you talk a little bit about how their introductions compare and, like, what it says about their characters? There's Adrius.

Ciel:

So when I was writing Adrius, he's a character who very much can only really be himself when he's not around other vampires for various reasons that are maybe a little more spoilery, I don't heckin know. So when he first meets our protagonist Kazan at a party, he is pretending to be human, so he's able to be a much more open version of himself. And I really wanted that because I wanted the first glimpse of him you get to be who he truly is as a person and not who he spends a lot of the book pretending to be around other people. So I wanted to very deliberately put him in a position where you the reader and also Kazan the character know who he is right away, right at the start. You're like, this is his personality, he is a vampire, this is kind of what he does, like that kind of thing. You get to know him right away so that then later on when he's kind of pretending to be someone else you're like, wait, what the fuck happened to this dude? What's going on? As opposed to Rhea, where there isn't the same level of deception with her, she's never really pretending to be somebody else, she does a lot of like, political sneakiness, but she's always very true to herself, so I wanted to establish her really from the first moment you meet her, not just as a character, but very specifically As a love interest. So the first time Kazan meets Rhea, it is in a very, I don't even necessarily want to say meet cute kind of way. It's way faster than that. But I wanted the reader to get the sense right away that like, oh, Rhea's also a love interest. Cool. There's no confusion there. It very clearly, immediately, she's on the love interest, like, list, as it were.

Lilly:

You mentioned Adrius having to pretend to be someone he's not in vampire society, and I think now that I've started asking this question out loud it's probably a spoiler question.

Ciel:

We can shuffle it to the back half of the podcast.

Lilly:

I think maybe I'll just tease the listeners and say that I have a lot of questions about the theme of deception, lies, and truth in this book. That we will, we'll talk about that later, but I'm gonna follow up on that.

Ciel:

Yes, that is definitely a major theme of the book. They're all a bunch of lying bitches. No, I'm just kidding.

Lilly:

right, what's not a spoiler is that we got ourselves some vampires here.

Ciel:

We sure do.

Lilly:

Incredible. I love a good, just like, indulgent vampire story that's like, you know what? This is vampires and I'm not going to pretend it's not. And I was wondering if you had a favorite vampire story other than, of course, The Hunter's Gambit.

Ciel:

Oh gosh, what is my favorite vampire story other than The Hunter's Gambit? Tough question. Honestly, Dracula's a classic. It's hard to beat the classics. It feels almost, like, trite to say, like, Oh, my favorite is the one that established the genre. Like, oh, I love the classics. But I think it's, it's just good. It slaps. And there's definitely a lot of, you know, ye olde vampire tropes that I tried to kind of incorporate. into Hunter's Gambit. I really like It was a Dracula movie that came out years and years ago. It was the guy who plays Bard in the Hobbit movies. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. I don't know my faces very well. But he was Dracula in this Dracula movie, and that I actually really liked. It was just kind of self indulgent, but it was good.

Sara:

Is that Van Helsing?

Ciel:

No, it's not Van Hels Hold on, let me, let me Google it.

Lilly:

Are you thinking Keanu Reeves? That's the only

Ciel:

not thinking Keanu Reeves.

Sara:

Dracula Untold.

Ciel:

Yes, that one.

Sara:

And it is Luke Evans.

Ciel:

It is barred from the Hobbit movies. I have, all my points of reference for actors are like Doctor Who or Lord of the Rings. Yeah, Dracula Untold. I thought that was great. It was a little, I don't want to say it was generic, but it wasn't trying to do anything particularly different. It was just trying to do something classic really well, and I really liked it. Yeah, that was a personal just, I liked it.

Lilly:

I did not know this movie existed and I know what I am doing immediately after this recording.

Ciel:

yeah, it's, I mean, Luke Evans is very attractive. Putting that out there, just very attractive.

Lilly:

And now I'm distracted. All right, putting that search tab away.

Ciel:

Oh yeah, that's totally fair, yeah.

Sara:

So you, you talk a little bit about tropes. One of the fun things about vampire stories, particularly modern vampire stories, is at least for me as a reader, kind of playing like what vampire rules will they use since there's a lot of established vampire tropes, but they're also kind of loose. So, can you talk a little bit about how much you brought in existing classic tropes versus creating your own rules and mythology for vampires?

Ciel:

So, I wanted to make sure that I was keeping some tropes that are active weaknesses. So, in the book series, silver actively harms vampires. If vampires touch silver, it hurts them. A classic trope, silver is a weakness. I didn't want to include anything that would be too logistically complicated, like can't cross running water, or can't enter houses uninvited, in part because none of that really shows up in the book. And I'm one of those people where if I write worldbuilding, particularly if it's something that's going to hinder a character, I want it to show up, I want it to have a purpose. Neither of those two tropes, running water or entering houses, are things that ever show up in Gambit. So I was just like, there's no point including those, there's no point mentioning that, it's never gonna show up. Best not to complicate it. The whole like. Crosses wording away evil trope just doesn't apply, crosses aren't a thing in this universe, so, ain't no point. Again, garlic never showed up as like a plot point, and I was just like, come on, let vampires eat garlic, just let them have Italian food. Not being able to have garlic bread is just so sad.

Sara:

I mean, that's not a fun eternity if you can't eat garlic bread.

Ciel:

It's not! You're missing garlic bread! I did want to keep mentions of sort of vampires being nocturnal. The way I did it is more just, they like sleeping during the day. It's not like they must return to their coffins when the sun is out. It's just, they don't really like being awake during the day and a lot of them like indulging in naps, so they're just gonna take naps. Pretty great! Yeah, so it was stuff like that where I kind of wanted to take some classic things. As long as they were things that I felt would be useful to the world building. What other tropes did I do? I want to There's like two, but they're spoilers and I don't I don't want to

Sara:

Yeah, there's, there's one that I'm thinking about that's definitely a spoiler, but I really liked the way that you hint at it in the beginning. And then say like, is it a thing? I don't know. And then it turns out to be a thing, but I spoilers.

Ciel:

We're being incredibly vague. Go read the book and you'll find out. Yeah, so it was stuff like that. I do include mention of like, vampires do actively have to drink a certain amount of human blood or else like, they're gonna starve. I wanted to get rid of all that goddamn like, oh you can just drink animal blood and it's fine, shut the fuck up. Sorry, sorry, that was too Not to be If anyone's read the dedication to this book, you'll understand. But I wanted to make it very clear that like, they do have to actively consume human blood. That is a thing they have to do. No choice about it. And they have to consume a certain amount per month or else they're essentially on like a starvation diet and it's just not gonna be great.

Lilly:

But it's introduced very early on that that does not necessarily mean killing people, which I thought was a nice sort of balance. You know, you need this thing, but you don't have to be a dick about it.

Ciel:

Yeah, there is, there's a lot of characters that kind of prefer to not actively hunt down and murder people. Because a lot of the society that I wanted to write is kind of a bunch of posh, indulgent, rich bastards. And a lot of posh, indulgent, rich bastards are not hunting their own food. So there are many ways to get human blood in this that don't involve actively killing people. Oh, I guess the other vampire trope that I include is Rowan Wood being something else that can hurt vampires. I didn't want to go with the classic wooden stake to the heart thing. So I made it that it's specifically Rowan wood, which has like the wards away evil type of trope attached to it. So there are people who carry around Rowan wood stakes specifically for vampires. So that is something else. Yeah.

Lilly:

You mentioned that crosses just simply are not a thing in this universe. And sort of building off of that, right away, during your world building, we see, uh, Some really, like, wonderful, casual equality in the society in this book. Just, yeah, there are women soldiers. Sure, there are, like, ladies in charge of cities. And I'm not going anywhere with that. I just liked it.

Ciel:

I mean, I also like that. I feel like if I'm writing any type of secondary world, I kind of think to myself like, would there be sexism in here? And if so, what would be the point of it? And I was just like, there's no point to having sexism in this book. Like, it would just kind of waste time for a character to like, overcome that. It just felt unnecessary. Similarly, you know, as a queer woman, I pretty much never write books that have any type of homophobia in it. Just because that's not what I want to read. So yeah, yeah, it's just one of those things where I was like, ah, fine. Fuck it, people can have different prejudices in this world.

Lilly:

I think especially in a fantasy novel, because I'm like, this is indulgent, this is fantasy, this is, you know, wish fulfillment. Like, we can just pretend. Let's just all pretend this is a world with sexy vampires, and why would I add bullshit to that? And I loved it.

Ciel:

Yeah, I mean, I mean, what are, what are the things, I feel like I incorporate this mentality into almost every book I write, but very specifically with Hunter's Gambit. I was like, I want people reading this to just kind of have a good time. Like, I want it to feel indulgent and like, decadent, almost, if you can call a book decadent. I don't know. So I was just like, eh, why, why put sexism in there? Not gonna bother with that.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Sara:

Like you say, it doesn't serve a point in the book, you know? So there's no need to have a world where that's a thing.

Ciel:

Yeah, like, I know there's definitely a lot of fantasy series that do include sexism, and it plays a purpose in either the plot or like character motivation or something, and I'm not going to try and knock those books because I definitely think that including various prejudices like sexism can help serve a narrative if that's the narrative you're going for. It just didn't serve any point in Hunter's Gambit, so I didn't include it.

Lilly:

Both types have their place, right? Cause sometimes you're like, let's be thoughtful and explore this. And sometimes you're like, could we not?

Ciel:

Yeah.

Lilly:

And this was fantastic. And I loved it. We have teased a couple of things that I'm very excited to talk about, but before we get to the spoiler section, Sarah, who should read this book?

Sara:

You should read this book if you want a lush atmosphere, vampiric threesomes, and a lot of bloody action.

Lilly:

Hell yeah, we have not talked about the gore at all, but A

Ciel:

Oh yeah, there, there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of violence in this. If you don't like your books with a bit of bloodshed, uh, don't read this.

Lilly:

It's vampires! It's like good old fashioned vampires. That means there's some killin involved.

Sara:

Yes.

Ciel:

Yeah, let them be monstrous. Let them, let them tear people apart. Just go for it.

Sara:

And they, they do indeed tear people apart in this book.

Ciel:

That is true.

Lilly:

As part of our recent Patreon drive, we are doing a round of patron shoutouts. Thank you to Danny Finn for supporting fiction fans.

Sara:

If you join our Patreon, you'll get access to weekly bonus content like our Shoot, Screw, or Marry series where we play, you might've guessed it, Shoot, Screw, or Marry with the characters from the books that we discuss on the podcast.

Lilly:

This week, we're actually going to be joined by Ciel to talk about who we'd screw from The Hunter's Gambit.

Sara:

Thank you so much for support and for making this podcast possible.

Lilly:

To avoid spoilers, skip to 53. 30. We talked a little bit about how this book probably isn't capital R romance. However, The romantic plotline is so central to the vibes of this book, and I loved the tension so much. But they don't really end up together. I mean, maybe they do. I don't know. I'm just a reader.

Ciel:

Well, if the book sells well enough, I do actually have an idea for a sequel in mind. Yeah, when I was writing this, I was like, okay, I have to sell this as a standalone, but in my head, I'm like, it's a trilogy, it's book one of a trilogy, please let me turn it into a trilogy, I'm begging you, but obviously the way publishing works is if book one doesn't sell, of course it's not going to be signed on for a trilogy. That's just, that's business, baby! But, yeah, when I was, gosh, I feel like there's a whole backstory to why it ended up just being such a romanticy. I really like it when vampire novels just kind of indulge in the erotic nature of vampires. And I was like, I'm not gonna, who am I to mess with that? Certainly not. And I was like, also, you know what? Vampires are not straight. I'm sorry. No vampires heterosexual. I don't make the rules. I just, I call it like I see it. So I was like, all right, this has got to be like some kind of bisexual. And then I was like, eh, heck it, let's make it poly. Cause it's like, yeah, why, why are Why not? And yeah, I feel like there is, you know, there's something about that overall sense of like decadence, that made me kind of be like, no, I want this romance to be in there, and I want it to be very, very smutty? I feel like that's not quite the right word. Very like hot and heavy. I didn't want it to be kind of like a, a deep, Chased romance. I wanted to be very clear that these people can and will and do fuck each other. I wanted to have that, not just romantic tension, but active, like, sexual tension. Cause I feel like that's just something that's really good to have with vampires. Vampires are hot. They're sexy.

Sara:

Let vampires fuck.

Ciel:

Exactly, let vampires fuck. Don't give me this PG 13 vampire crap.

Lilly:

I think my very first note in this book was Thank you for not making me wait for smooching.

Ciel:

Yes, there is smooching very early on. I think it's like chapter 2 or chapter 3, there's like smooching. It's very early. And it's just kind of for funsies. Like, I wanted to set a tone relatively early on. It's like, making out slash sex slash any type of, you know, romantic or sexual interest is something that can be very casual and doesn't have to be like, a slow build up to a romantic relationship that has been going on for a while. I'm like, no, people can just make out because they wanna. And it's just, it's just, it fits with a vampire book. So yeah, there is Smoot Chain really early on. Don't worry, if you're here for the Smoot Chain, you will get there so fast, I promise.

Sara:

So, this isn't necessarily a question, but I think it could be an interesting discussion. Kazan is an incredibly flawed character. For example, like, very early on, she leaves a bunch of people to die. No regrets, she's like, I'm in it for myself, I'm gonna save myself first, peace out. But I was still able to sympathize with her and enjoy her story, and I feel like that's not something that I can usually do with a character who is so, I'm gonna say quote unquote, unlikable. And I feel like it might have been because she's so self aware about it. Like, she's not lying to herself, pretending that she's a good person while she leaves these people to die. She's like, no, I know that if I was a better person I'd try to save them, but I'm in it for me. And I thought that was a really, like, fine line that you walked very, very well.

Ciel:

you, yeah. When I was originally coming up with Kazan, I wanted to make it very quick. clear that this is a person who's kind of aware that she lives in a world where survival is kind of an active struggle. Someone who had to like scrape by to survive kind of background. And there's kind of a practicality to her almost, where she's kind of like, okay, if I stay and try to help these people, I'm probably gonna fucking die. So screw that, I'm gonna live. Like she does a lot of shitty things, but I wanted it to be very clear that you the reader Probably would do the same thing in her position. You would probably also panic and run. That's just a very human thing to do. So I wanted to kind of lean into the fact that she does things that aren't like what a good, pure of heart person would do, but she does it for very human reasons. And for reasons that are very clearly a direct result of the environment she's in. Like, later on in the book, when she's stuck in the Citadel, and she's very like, Alright, fuck everybody, I'm saving myself, and I'm taking everyone down with me. It's very like, oh yeah, that is a direct response to the fact that everyone is trying to kill her. or waiting to kill her and no one will help her. There's definitely a lot of that kind of, she feels like she has to be a lone wolf because she's been treated like a lone wolf for her whole life. So she's like, all right, I have to embrace that. And it was fun to write. It's fun to write characters like that.

Lilly:

I feel like I often find myself shouting at a book when there's a character who's in some kind of like dead end situation and they're struggling against it. Like, there's no way for me to survive. It's like, well, you could at least sabotage them. And I love that she grasped that chance with both hands. It felt very human.

Ciel:

I wanted her to be, you know how there are some characters that are like, I will die on any hill? I wanted her to be a character that's like, no, I will kill on any hill. Like, I wanted her to have that kind of vibe. Yeah, very, very like, all right, fuck you.

Sara:

If you're gonna kill me, I'm gonna take you down with me.

Ciel:

Exactly. Like, gosh, I don't remember where this is, but one of the inspirations for Kazan's character was actually wild boar. It's pretty interesting, so as far as I'm aware. Pigs are really interesting in that most of the time if you take a domesticated animal and put it in the wild, it will not be able to survive in that original environment because domestication has happened. Pigs will kind of just go back to being wild boar if you like put them in that kind of environment. And one of the things about boar hunting is you would have these specific spears that had to have like a cross guard essentially like a pike because If you, like, spear a wild boar, it will, like, claw its way towards you, even if that means, like, pushing the spear deeper into itself. And I wanted Kazan to have that kind of mentality. Like, when you take her out of civilization, she will respond accordingly. She will act uncivilized. If you try to stab her, she will be like, okay, you're trying to stab me. I will do anything in my power to, like, get you back. And that was kind of what I wanted to approach her character with.

Lilly:

As extreme, I don't even think they're that extreme, as excellent as her reactions are, maybe I'll use the word excellent, they always feel very reasoned. I mean, even when she's struggling for her life, she's not, I mean she panics, that's not a good way to phrase it, but Okay, I'll just jump into what I was going to say, which is her trust in this book is so interesting because she is always all in, whether it's on distrusting or trusting someone in a way that I felt was so genuine because she was always able to adapt to new information, again, in a way that I feel like other stories often fuck up pretty hard.

Sara:

She acts with the information she has, right?

Lilly:

Yeah, when you have a very reasonable character who's like, I don't believe it, even though I saw it with my own eyes. It's like, fuck you. You just saw them do this thing. Come on, get your head out of your ass. And Kazan, she is in such a wild situation. She's been kidnapped by vampires. They're treating her like a queen, but like a fake figurehead queen. She's constantly having to adapt to the changing situation. And she is doing that, just like rolling with the punches. on her feet constantly, like, okay, I have now gotten proof that you're trustworthy. All right, I'm in. Nope, you crossed me? Okay, hate you now. Like, it was incredible.

Ciel:

Yeah, she's, she's definitely kind of a, a go big or go home character in survival mode. And I, I feel like this was partially just the character that I wanted to write, and also partly the fact that this is a fast paced book, and I wanted to make sure I was keeping it On the shorter side, it's under 100, 000 words, and sometimes you get a lot over that in fantasy. So I knew I wanted this fast paced, I wanted it to be a little shorter, so I knew that I needed to write a character that is not constantly having to stop and really think about things and, like, second guess herself. I wanted a character who was always onto the next thing, always doing something, always, you know, going in guns blazing in whatever she next decides to, you know, bounce back and forth between.

Lilly:

Pragmatic, I think, was a word I was

Ciel:

Yeah. Yeah, pragmatics. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good one.

Lilly:

She is described in the character Dramatis Personae, blacksmith and liar.

Ciel:

Yes.

Lilly:

Delightful, incredible. She does lie a lot,

Ciel:

Yes, she is a very dishonest character.

Lilly:

and we see a lot of different reactions to that throughout the book. People who know her, people who care for her, antagonists, of course, also. Although most of the antagonists don't give her enough credit to even care if she's lying, which is very interesting. But one of the things that we get towards the end of the book is that she's only okay with lying if she does it on purpose. And I thought that was such an incredible, like, morality that just fit her so well and fit the story and her actions to a T.

Ciel:

Yeah, it's, it's like she's aware that she's screwing over other people and leaving her to die. She's aware of the fact that she's doing shitty things. So when she realizes that she has been lying and was not aware of doing so, and was lying to herself in a way that she was not aware of doing so, it's sort of like a, a loss of control that she didn't realize she was going to lose, or didn't realize that she'd already lost. I felt like that was a good culmination of her character, is to let that trait that she uses to survive be something that Eventually fails her and kind of, I don't want to say betrays her because it's not quite like that, but something that fails her in the end.

Lilly:

And then we get that paired with Adrius, which is what I was going to say earlier, about there's such an interesting intersection with how he lies to the other vampires. About himself, I guess. He's playing a role to accomplish his goals. Versus being honest with her in a way that he's not able to be with other people. And she finds herself being honest with him in a way that I think surprises her. I, yeah, truth and falsehood are such a fascinating, like, back and forth in this novel.

Ciel:

Yeah, with her and Adrius, I kind of went with the perspective of like, you can't con a con. She kind of subconsciously realizes that Adrius is also a heckin liar. He's just doing it in a very different way. And that's never something that I really actively mention because it kind of, there's no good point to actively mention it. But she kind of picks up on the fact that he's very similar to her in that way.

Sara:

So, we've talked a lot about Kazan, and there are some other characters who did break my heart, who did deserve better. I mean, so did Kazan, but like, she gets her own in the end. She brings down the Citadel. I wouldn't say it's a happy ending, but it's like, you know, she screws everyone over in the way that she wants to screw them over. So, good for her. She deserved it. But like, Isadora deserved better. She, she deserved better.

Ciel:

Isadora did! I felt bad.

Sara:

She was sweet, and like, yeah, she was not doing anything to help Kazan, but she was nice about it, and I was sad when she died.

Ciel:

I, yeah, that was, for a while she wasn't gonna die. And then as I was sort of writing up to the finale, I was like, I gotta kill her. I gotta. Because I needed to, I needed to re establish D'Saar as an active threat. And as somebody who is willing to be completely merciless when it is necessary. I also wanted Kazan to have that moment of like, I could have very easily saved this woman's life, and it would have cost me absolutely nothing, and I chose not to. Because I felt like that was kind of important as well. Part of her sort of realization that she's becoming kind of a worse person in response to what's happening to her. Yeah, I I also felt bad killing Isadora, but I had to do it. I had to do it to her.

Lilly:

But at least Kazan had that moment of reflection. I think that really helped me as the reader a lot because it was like she acknowledged how much that sucked and owned her decision. It was like, yeah, I did. That was my fault. But you know?

Sara:

Well, I mean, I think that goes back to our earlier discussion about Kazan not actually necessarily being a great person, but still being someone that we can enjoy reading about. Because she does acknowledge her flaws, and it is in reaction to her environment. I was also sad about Travers. He also deserved better. Like, yeah, that scene made me sad too.

Ciel:

He was just doing his job and had a very bad time. Yeah, poor guy.

Sara:

Yeah, it was not a good day for him.

Ciel:

Honestly, up until, like, I think the, like, the final draft or the second to last draft, that did not happen to him. It was, like, a completely random human who had to do that, like, mock duel. And then I don't remember if it was my agent, my editor, or something that, like, occurred to me, someone suggested it. Just having it be a random person doesn't hit. It's just like, well, that's just some random guy. And I was like, oh, I couldn't make it so that Travers got captured as well, just differently. And, uh, is now still not getting out of it. Poor guy. Okay.

Lilly:

Something about him having agency in that moment. I mean, he didn't really. He was in a rigged fight. There was no way he could win. But at least he died, like, Trying?

Sara:

I mean, I feel like he knew the risks when he became a warden. So he, he did, I mean, Isadora didn't necessarily have any say in being assigned to be Kazin's, like, lady in waiting, but Travers, he picked this job. Presumably, he could have gotten another job doing something else that was less dangerous. I feel like he at least did it. knew that there is the possibility of gruesome death in his future.

Lilly:

True. Whereas Isadora just, the power dynamic is so different, which is fascinating to have a vampire character be the one with the like, least power.

Ciel:

Yeah, I really wanted to, it's, it's a little more subtle. I'm very, uh, I don't like capitalism. So I wanted to make it clear that there was a lot of class differences between all the characters. So, like, Isadora, she has no real status. Like, historically, in the real world, ladies in waiting were still ladies, they would still be upper class, but they would still be kind of servants, depending on, you know, what you're looking at. So I wanted to make it clear that even amongst the vampires that have that. Like, they're rich, they're aristocratic, they're like so fancy and elegant. I wanted to make it very clear that even with them, there are the lower class. Because I really wanted to keep some kind of class stratification among them. With Travers, I gotta say, I love both writing and reading Doomed Last Stands. I love it. I love it when a character's like, I'm gonna die, but I can choose to go out with dignity. I love it. I love it so much. I'm a sucker for it every time I read it or watch it. I'm a sucker for it when I write it. 10 out of 10. Writers, write more of these, I'm begging you, I love them so much. That's my PSA of the day, sorry.

Lilly:

Yeah. Oh, I feel like we all have that, that thing that just like hits you right every time.

Ciel:

It's just so good, every time.

Lilly:

One thing that I really enjoyed about this book is that the book kind of asks, it doesn't come out and ask, but it sort of implies the question, what is the value of a human life? And Kazan kind of twists that and counters with, I don't give a fuck, but let me tell you the value of human dignity. And I don't know if she quite gets there at the end. Because she really struggles with her decision to, I mean, in sabotaging the vampires, she probably does kill a lot of people who don't deserve it. But by ending this tradition of humiliating a human before they have a horrible death, Every year. She's really reclaiming dignity in a way. I don't know. It's so much less sad to die in a collapsing building than it is to die humiliated. And I get that. I agree with her. She made the right decision. If she's still wondering, Ciel, would you let her know? She made the right decision.

Ciel:

There's a line, I think, at the end when she does her little, like, fuck you speech. I think it's, if you treat me inhumanely, then I will act inhumanely. Like, if you strip me of humanity and dignity. Then I will claw that back. I will do shitty things if you treat me this way. And yeah, I, again, it's just kind of a, it's not quite a Doomblast stand, but it's definitely that sense of like, you know, there are aspects of my humanity that you will not take from me, that I will not let you take from me. And that was fun to write.

Lilly:

Yeah, it makes the final battle between her and Dasar. Did I get that? Dasar, right? so fascinating because she's already ruined their ritual. The citadel is crumbling around them. In a sense, she's already won, but she is now facing a fight that she is far outclassed by. And so it's just like a fascinating obviously she still wants to live, but as the reader there was still that triumphant like, Ah, but you fucking did it already. Hell yeah.

Ciel:

Yeah, I, I knew that I, I really wanted to have the two of them have that like dramatic final fight as the building's like falling apart and as there's kind of no stakes other than the two of them needing to kill one of each other. Kazen needs to kill him and he needs to kill her at the end. And yeah, I mean, it's fun to write, and it was definitely one of those things where you know Kazan's super outclassed, but you also know that she has the advantage of thriving in these kinds of environments, and Dasar does not. Which is what enables her to win, by virtue of just the power of being pissed off.

Sara:

So, you know, sometimes we just need a little anger to, to get us through.

Ciel:

One of the things that, you know, I really wanted to write with Kazan is, I hate it when female characters are punished for being angry. And I wanted to make it that time and time again, Kazan's Anger is correct and rewards her. Because I love angry female characters, like, for God's sake, stop making female characters have to, like, regret their anger and, like, become nicer. I'm like, no, let them be bitches. Let them be angry bitches. Come on.

Sara:

Let women be mad.

Ciel:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Lilly:

We read a collection of Audre Lorde recently, and I feel like she talks about that quite a bit in a very different context. But still, that idea that, like, sometimes anger is justified, and you don't have to be, like, calm and articulate to be correct.

Ciel:

Yeah,

Sara:

sometimes anger helps you.

Ciel:

yeah, definitely true.

Sara:

you talk a little bit about some of the things that were different from the version that you originally wrote with the version that's been published, like Travers being the one who dies in the mock duel. How different is the final product from the first draft?

Ciel:

Extremely. So I actually wrote the first draft back in 2018. This was before my first book, Bluebird, came out. Which, you should also read, dear listener.

Sara:

You should, and then you can listen to us interview Ciel about Bluebird.

Ciel:

Yeah, so I actually wrote the very first version of this book in 2018. And it was vastly different. The characters were totally different from who they are now. The plot was very different as well. The general conceit was the same. Some of the beats were the same. But it was really different. It was also much more of a political drama almost, which I really wanted to steer away from in the final version. And then in 2021 I think after I'd sold Bluebird, my agent was like, Hey, remember that vampire thing you wrote but then like wasn't gonna sell because nobody was buying vampire books? And I was like, Yes, I do remember the vampire book because I loved it. And she was like, Why don't you just like rewrite that? Because you know, vampires are kind of coming back. They're like more sellable now. So I went through a number of drafts of kind of just like completely tearing the book apart. Stripping it down to what I wanted to keep, what I wanted to get rid of. So the characters kind of got rebuilt from the ground up. Most of the plot kind of got rebuilt from the ground up. It was mostly just, the basic sort of, uh, aesthetics were the same. The basic premise was the same. And some of the main characters, Were, like, Kazan was still the main character, Adrius and Rhea were still there. Although I think Adrius had a different name, something beginning with R, I don't remember. I don't remember because it was so fucking long ago. But it got completely reworked, like, from the ground up. Not even slightly the same.

Sara:

Were there any scenes that surprised you in the rewrite?

Ciel:

Yes, there's a scene after Kazan wakes up after she's been turned into a vampire where she kind of climbs out the window and like hides under this statue. I was surprised by that scene because I didn't realize it was a moment she needed. And it's kind of a moment where she sort of realizes that she has lost Alphonse as well, who is also a character, dear readers, that's a spoiler.

Sara:

And we haven't talked about Alphonse, but his story too.

Ciel:

Yeah, I wanted to keep Alphonse around, but there's kind of no way to do so in a way that would make sense. He can't stay around in Kazan's body because that would kill her, and if he just goes back to being a geist that hangs around an old painting, that's just kind of pointless for him. And in the end of the day, his presence in the novel is to facilitate Kazan's escape and Adreus's character arc. So he kind of fulfills both those purposes before he dies. So it kind of becomes clear in that final confrontation between Kazan being possessed by Alphonse and Adreus that what happened to Alphonse was a complete accident. And as much as he personally wants revenge for it, it's sort of, it's kind of misguided revenge. It's sort of something that has stayed with him for So vehemently, because he's kind of frozen in time. Adrius has found a way to sort of move on, even though he does have, like, he does kind of punish himself for it. There's ways in which he punishes himself for it. But he's kind of been like, no, no, no, I've had decades to accept that it was an accident, and to accept that I needed to move on, and this is like the final, Aspect of properly moving on. And so with Alphonse, there's kind of a sense of like, he's not capable of getting past it. He's not capable of moving on. And so his anger there isn't something that could continue in the narrative, but it's also not something that he'd be able to get rid of. And also he was dead already, I mean, come on.

Lilly:

I love the way that you made Geists. This was something I wanted to talk about when we were talking about vampire lore in this book, but I was like, no, this is definitely a spoiler. But the idea that they are, they're vampire victims that didn't get turned into a vampire, basically, and so they sort of haunt an object or a place.

Ciel:

Yeah, so, again, this is kind of a holdover from the very first iteration of the book. In the very first iteration of the book, there was a lot more classic monsters. There was, like, werewolves, there were, like, ghouls and zombies. It was kind of just like a whole host of classic monsters, including ghosts. But, uh, They ended up just getting kind of trimmed away in the later rewrite just because they didn't really serve a narrative purpose, and it felt more fitting to have geists and vampires that paralleled each other and kind of played off the same sort of established in universe plot. rules, I guess. Like, I think it's easier to write kind of the rules of the fantasy world when you have two sides of the same coin rather than just like a bunch of different shit going on. Especially for a shorter novel that, you know, is so set in just one location, you know. There's not a lot of traveling around. There's not a lot of them going to other places. So yeah, Geist were kind of a holdover from that first version, but I knew that I really needed to keep them and I knew that I wanted to keep Alphonse because he's just He's so central, he's important, he needs to be there, dammit.

Lilly:

Loved

Sara:

Yeah, I mean, I loved Alphonse too. I was sad to see him die, although I agree that he did need to. But I loved that vampires can't see geists. And the way that that plays out when Kazen is back in her hometown, and how it helps her realize that she's changed and she can't go back to the way she was. Like, that was Chef's Kiss. Excellent.

Ciel:

you, that, yeah, that was, that was fun to write. That was a, that was a nice little scene that I got to write there. Yeah, I, I wanted it to, again, it's kind of like, there are anti capitalist themes in much of what I write. It's the, sort of, the people doing the oppressing do not or cannot see their victims. That was something that I wanted to sort of include is like the vampires create Geist, but they can't see it, you know, to them, they've just killed somebody and they're gone. But with Geist, it's like, no, there was a real person that suffered as a result of your actions, and they are still suffering as a result of your actions, and they don't go away. You just are blind to it. So yeah, that was something I found fun to write. And also logistically, it worked really well. You know, you find out later it's a haunted mansion, essentially. you know, none of the vampires that live there know it's haunted.

Lilly:

We get a little bit of a hint about saints who are good geists, and that's kind of the only taste of an organized religion that we see in this book. And I really hope that you get the rest of this trilogy deal, because I feel like we're gonna see some more saints coming

Sara:

I, I need this to happen.

Ciel:

I do too because the human religion and like the wardens and like the human societal structure in the two sequels that are in my head, they play a huge part and like the Geist world building does as well and how it relates to saints.

Sara:

I need it.

Ciel:

I want to write it so bad. Anyway, please buy my book so I can write a sequel and then a trilogy. Please.

Lilly:

Everyone go buy Hunter's Gambit so I can read book two, please.

Sara:

Yes.

Ciel:

I like, never read my own reviews, or, I never really read reviews of my books. I only read a couple, but one of the few ones, like, you know, if, like, my editor sends me a review, or, like, if it's somebody that I'm gonna do an interview with or something, I'll read it. And one of the reviews I read was, like, man, I really wish there was, like, a little more focus on the world building, and I'm like, I'm saving it for books two and three! Please!

Sara:

I, I mean, I, like, I want to see more of the world building, but I also didn't feel that this book needed more of the world building. I loved that it was a standalone, but that there is potential for books two and three, and I, man, I want books two and three. Like, yeah.

Lilly:

I was honestly shocked to hear that you had this planned as a trilogy, which I mean as a compliment to say that this book feels so just like satisfying. Open ended, but still satisfying in an ending. And like the world is much bigger and I'm very excited to read more, but I don't actually feel like, I don't know, I hate cliffhangers. They feel cheap to

Ciel:

Yeah,

Lilly:

And you didn't do that.

Ciel:

I didn't want to make this a cliffhanger. Oftentimes, if you're not a well established author or you're pitching a series that could be more like financially volatile or not that likely to work, a really good strategy is to have the first novel be a standalone that has like potential for a series. So that was what I tried to do. I tried to make sure that everything was kind of wrapped up, but there is kind of like a cliffhanger. Well, something's clearly going to happen next, right? But you're not like, Hold on, that never got resolved. What happened there? I didn't want that. So I wanted to make it where, you know, if I don't get to write the trilogy of my dreams, it still is a satisfying ending and you still feel like you've read a complete story.

Sara:

So, Ciel, what would you like readers to take away from this book?

Ciel:

Honest, I feel like I say this with every book I write, I want readers to have a good time reading it. You know, I want it to be kind of something where if you like vampires and you like the more monstrous eroticism of vampires, I want you to take away from this book, like, yeah, that was a great indulgence. That was something that felt like. you know, what I, what I wanted from a decadent vampire book. And I, yeah, I, I feel like I, I never like to say that, oh, I really want people to take away the important themes that I, like, lay in this book. Because I don't think any of my books really do that in, uh, quite a serious way. Yeah, I want readers to have a good time. I want you to have a good time reading it. And I want readers to feel like they got to experience a indulgent part of vampire lore. I want them to feel like they got what Twilight didn't give them.

Lilly:

Fantastic.

Ciel:

I'm still mad about that.

Sara:

so.

Ciel:

I was in middle school when the Twilight books came out. Random kids, like, you'd line up for the bus, and random kids you'd never spoke to before would be like, or you'd team, like, Edward or team Jacob, and I'd be like, I don't care, I, who, who, who are you? Why are you asking me this? And you, you read them, and you're like, damn. I love the inherent monstrous eroticism of vampires. Why did Stephanie Meyer decide to ruin that? Because she just wanted to write Mormon superheroes. Yeah, I said it.

Sara:

But, you know, as with Kazan, your anger has served you very well.

Lilly:

Yes.

Ciel:

This was a spite book. Nah, I'm kidding. It wasn't a spite book. This was a book from the heart. But it was definitely like, I have not gotten this in media in so long. By God, I'm gonna make it.

Lilly:

I do feel like, in the same way that fashion is cyclical, and polarized genes are back in fashion,

Ciel:

Which they shouldn't be. Just saying it now,

Lilly:

that's the downside, but the upside is they're also getting monstrous vampires back.

Ciel:

yes. Which I am so glad to see. I'm so glad we're getting that back. I'm so glad that like, the wheel has turned, the cycle has moved on. If you're writing vampires, you don't have to write like, contemporary paranormal romance vampires. I'm so glad we can write like, nitty gritty vampires, gory vampires.

Lilly:

Bad guys. Are vampires considered monsterfucking? I don't know if we have an answer.

Ciel:

I've thought about this. I've been asked this by friends. I've thought about this a lot. So, I think that there's a scale of monster fucking. I feel like on one end you have, like, Cthulhu, basically. Like, you're fucking something that is completely, entirely monstrous. And I feel like vampires are closer to the human end. But, I Wanted to make it clear that there were monstrous traits and monster fucking like the fact that vampires are cold to the touch like you're Still fucking somebody who's not fully alive and the same way humans are alive, you know You're still fucking somebody who's got like fangs and claws and shit So yeah, I think vampires do count as monster fucking because they are monsters But I think they're closer to like the the normie end of monster fucking They're a good intro before you move on to, like, deeper monsterfucking, as it were.

Lilly:

They're the gateway drug to

Ciel:

Yeah, they're they're a gateway drug to monsterfucking. Like werewolves in human form, they're like a gateway to monsterfucking.

Lilly:

Yeah, werewolf in werewolf form though, that's monsterfucking.

Ciel:

Yeah, that's monsterfucking, for sure.

Sara:

I'm pretty sure that is where we landed in our monster fucking episode. Do vampires count as necrophilia?

Ciel:

Depends. I personally would say no, because even though they're, like, quote unquote dead and not considered alive in the way that humans are, they are, for all intents and purposes, thinking rationally, fully. Cognitively there in the same way a person is, you know, they can do all the same stuff a person is, they're not like, you know, zombies or anything. Yeah, they're just, I would say it does not count as necrophilia. I don't think it counts.

Lilly:

Vampires can consent. I think that changes the equation.

Ciel:

exactly, they can consent, and they should and do, because vampires are slutty. That, you heard it here first, folks. Not saying you can't have not slutty vampires, but also, like, come on, vampires are great at being slutty. It's like their whole thing. It's like them not being heterosexual.

Lilly:

There's also an element of danger with vampires, with good vampires,

Ciel:

Yes.

Lilly:

that I think pushes them onto the monster fucking scale.

Ciel:

Yeah, it's like, you never know if the monster's gonna hurt

Sara:

I think you mean vampires done well.

Ciel:

Yes, vampires done

Sara:

Not necessarily good vampires. I do think there's a difference.

Ciel:

There's the sense that you could come out of it with a few injuries, you know. A sign of good monster fucking.

Lilly:

Legends and lattes? Wait, that's a tiefling and an orc. That ain't monster fucking?

Ciel:

That's not monster fucking, I'm so sorry, that's not monster

Lilly:

There's no danger. You could write a version of that that is. But I think that's like a really good example of, it doesn't really matter what you're fucking. It matters if it can kill you.

Ciel:

Yeah, it's the monstrous nature, as opposed to like, physical characteristics being like a set scale, y'know.

Lilly:

no, you're green with big teeth.

Ciel:

Can you kill me though? Like, is this gonna be really violent? Am I gonna feel in danger at any point? No? Okay, then it's like not monsterfucking. S

Lilly:

Thank you so much for joining us. I do have one tiny quibble. Not with you, not with this book, but with myself and my own vocabulary. Which is that I don't know how to pronounce Seneschal.

Ciel:

Seneschal?

Lilly:

Is that how it is? Is that the word?

Ciel:

Yeah, Seneschal's a real word. It is a real English word.

Lilly:

it's totally a real word. No, I just have no idea. Seneschal. Okay. The characters in this book, I loved the hierarchy you built. It's very cool how we have like, you know, the heads of houses and they have their seneschals.

Ciel:

correct.

Lilly:

And it's a word I've definitely read before. I rolled with it, it didn't take me out of the story, and then I was writing the notes down, and I was like, oh no, this is a podcast and I have to say this out loud.

Ciel:

Yeah, it is a, it is a real English word. I wanted to pick a more formal sounding word for like second, basically. And I also didn't want to write out second in command a bunch of times because it doesn't really seem like that great a title. And again, a lot of this is about like hierarchy and, you know, titles and all that type of stuff. So Seneschal it was.

Sara:

Seneschal is an excellent word, but yeah, like Lily, it's one of those that I've seen written down and never bothered to learn actually how to pronounce. Until now.

Ciel:

We've all had those words. Yeah.

Sara:

Cielo, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast to talk about The Hunter's Gambit. We loved it. We needs book two and three. Angry Robot, please give us more. But can you tell us a little bit about any current projects that you might be working on?

Ciel:

Yes, so I am currently working on something. It has not been announced yet, so I will be extremely vague. It is going to be sci fi.

Lilly:

That is vague. All right.

Ciel:

it's gonna be sci fi and it's going to be I, gosh, I think I put this in like one of my pitch letters or something. If you were one of those people like me where you watched Phantom of the Opera and thought Christine should have chosen the Phantom, this might be a book for you where you have your villain slash love interest. Wait for the announcement!

Sara:

love me a good villain slash love interest, so I am excited. I need this in my life almost as much as I need book two and three of Hunter's Gambit.

Lilly:

And Ciel, where can our listeners follow you to get news about when this might be announced?

Ciel:

I am on Twitter at C. L. Pirlo. I am on Instagram. CL Purelow. I don't post updates as often as I would like to, but I do keep an active portfolio of what I currently have on my website, which is clpurelow. com. That's the good thing about having a really weird, unique name, is you can just take it as every username. All my socials are under my name. It's so convenient.

Lilly:

That's branding.

Sara:

Yes.

Ciel:

Oh, yeah.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for joining us. We had an absolute blast talking to you and I can't wait to read what you have next.

Ciel:

Thank you. Yeah, I had a great time. And, uh, wait for my next book, I guess. Buy Hunter's Gambit.

Sara:

all your books.

Ciel:

Yes, buy all my books.

Lilly:

you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara:

Bye!