Thud! by Terry Pratchett

Your hosts read Thud! a City Watch book in Discworld that is probably not the best book in Discworld, but they genuinely liked it despite their complaining. Your hosts talk about fantasy racial tension, the Bechdel test, and lolrandom chickens. They also discuss Carrot's character development, the helpfulness of strippers, and poor, poor Sybil. This episode also features a Words are Weird dredged up from the cockles of their hearts.

Find us on Discord / Support us on Patreon.

Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Thud!

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too. I'm Lily.

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 0:11

And tonight we'll be discussing THUD by Terry Pratchett. I would like to specify that as THUD and not THUD.

Sara 0:21

It does have that exclamation mark at the end.

Lilly 0:23

But before we get into that, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:27

Something great that happened recently is that yesterday it was my birthday. And that was pretty nice.

Lilly 0:33

Happy birthday.

Sara 0:34

Thank y'all.

Lilly 0:36

Did you escape with zero people singing at you?

Sara 0:38

Um, no. My father and his partner did sing to me after dinner, but luckily not at the restaurant.

Lilly 0:48

Okay, that's something then.

Sara 0:49

So I, yeah. That's like half escaped.

Lilly 0:54

Well, happy birthday.

Sara 0:56

Thank you.

Lilly 0:56

My good thing, I think, is that I harvested the first of our strawberries of the season.

Sara 1:04

Oh, very exciting.

Lilly 1:06

You can't do anything with them because you get like two at a time.

Sara 1:10

You can eat them.

Lilly 1:11

That's it, yeah. We've instituted a rule where you must eat the strawberry as soon as you pick it. Otherwise, because last year we would put them on our kitchen counter and then wait like a day or two and then they'd go bad and we'd be sad about it. So no, you must eat it immediately.

Sara 1:28

I think that's a good rule.

Lilly 1:29

Mm hmm. What are you drinking tonight?

Sara 1:31

I'm drinking sparkling wine because yesterday was my birthday, I'm going on vacation tomorrow. I deserve some sparkling wine.

Lilly 1:40

Hell yeah, you do. I am drinking Spiked Jones Soda.

Sara 1:45

Is it any good?

Lilly 1:47

Eh. This is MF grape flavored. I don't know, it tastes like a Jolly Rancher.

Sara 1:53

So that's a solid no, then.

Lilly 1:56

I mean, I, I don't dislike Jolly Ranchers, but it's not what I want from my alcoholic beverage.

Sara 2:02

Yeah, like, to be clear, I like Jolly Ranchers, I just don't want to drink them. Mmm.

Lilly 2:12

Maybe if you were 17, you could have more than one.

Sara 2:15

Yeah.

Lilly 2:16

It kind of feels like that's who it's for. But my house has some nostalgia for Jones Soda. So when we saw they had a spiked version, we were like, well, we should try it. We've tried it.

Sara 2:26

Well, now you know.

Lilly 2:27

Now we know. So, uh, drinking like a teenager tonight.

Sara 2:31

Cheers.

Lilly 2:33

Anyway, okay. Uh, have you read any good books lately?

Sara 2:36

So, between the last time we recorded and now, I have finished five books, four for the Subjective Chaos kind of awards, and then one for this evening, because I procrastinated hard on my Subjective Chaos reading, and that left me with a lot of novels to read by the 15th. I've read a lot.

Lilly 2:58

That's incredible.

Sara 3:00

I had started all of them. They were in varying degrees of completion.

Lilly 3:04

So you didn't read a full five novels, you just finished five novels.

Sara 3:09

Yes. Well, I mean, Thud, obviously I started at the beginning. I had not started that. And then The Future by Naomi Alderman, I did start from the beginning. I had not started that. But the others, like, I was 33 percent through two of them and 75 percent through one of them, so. But it was still a lot of reading. And I still have one more subjective chaos book to read.

Lilly 3:33

Oh no. Well, good luck, Sarah.

Sara 3:35

I've got a plane ride tomorrow. It's gonna be fine.

Lilly 3:40

Do you think you could describe all of them to me in one se I'm not asking you to right now, because like, we got shit to do, but Did you actually absorb enough that you could describe them to me?

Sara 3:49

I did. They were all science fiction, but different kinds of science fiction. But I do feel like I actually absorbed them and interacted with the content of them.

Lilly 3:59

That's good, that's all that really matters. Now if I ask you in a week,

Sara 4:03

Then my answer might be a little different, but in a week I'll have read like another five books. Well, not that many, hopefully. But,

Lilly 4:12

Who knows with our schedule.

Sara 4:14

yeah.

Lilly 4:15

For tonight, we're continuing our journey to the center of the Discworld. Although, are we actually through the center of the Discworld and out on the other side?

Sara 4:24

I think we are because we don't have that many books left.

Lilly 4:27

We have passed the center of the Discworld and are now on our journey to the edge of the Disc. THUD! It is a, I always forget, are they called Sam Vimes books or are they called Watch books?

Sara 4:40

Uh, City Watch.

Lilly 4:41

City Watch. Okay. One of those.

Sara 4:44

I mean, Sam Vimes works just fine as a descriptor because it is a Vimes book.

Lilly 4:49

the main character. I guess it's only because he might not have been the main character at the very, very beginning. Like that felt undecided. But clearly he is.

Fantasy Racism & Sam Vimes

Sara 4:57

Yeah, he has become the main character of the City Watch books.

Lilly 5:01

This book is broadly about the racial tension between dwarves and trolls. It, well, mini spoiler, it has a happy ending. That's all I'll say at this point.

Sara 5:12

I feel like that's not even that much of a spoiler because Terry Pratchett isn't known for his downer endings.

Lilly 5:19

No, I mean, I was being tongue in cheek. If I genuinely thought that was a spoiler, I wouldn't have said it. But I feel like the City Watch books often are about prejudice in some way. And then part of that is because of Vimes himself. He's a racist motherfucker.

Sara 5:35

Yes, he definitely is. And a lot of the later books at least deal with the integration of other races into the City Watch. Which, this one, like, that's not the main focus. I would say that's not the main focus of any of the books. But it happens in multiple books because Discworld has lots of other races. And they want to join the Watch. They want to become Watchmen. And it happens in this book too. Discworld. And something that kind of struck me reading this more than any other city watch book we've read is the fact that the first of a new race to join the watch is always a woman, I believe. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but like there's Chiri, there's Angua, and then here we see Sally who's a vampire.

Lilly 6:24

So I agree with you, as in general vibe, I agree with you. I don't think we've met a female troll within Ankh Morpork.

Sara 6:35

We have met a female troll within Ankh Morpork, she has not joined the watch, but.

Lilly 6:39

Oh yeah, Ruby, because Detritus is married. Yeah.

Sara 6:42

We do meet Ruby. Yeah.

Lilly 6:43

So we've met one, but she's not on the watch. But also, the first troll on the watch is not focused on in the same way.

Sara 6:51

Yeah. And just, like, the fact that it's always a woman who kind of pioneers the way for a new race to join the Watch is great, but the way that it interacts with Vime's, like, very fervent distaste and racism, I don't know, it makes me feel some kind of way.

Lilly 7:11

One more derailment, golems don't have gender. And there was a first golem on the watch at one point.

Sara 7:18

Yes.

Lilly 7:19

Okay, anyway, those are the only two exceptions. I don't think they really counteract your argument. And, I don't know if this was the intention. If it was, I would argue that it was not well done. But I think the only defense that could be made is that maybe Pratchett is trying to do two things at once, right? Like, maybe he's saying, yeah, it's hard to be a woman in this career and also racism, but that is such a grasp.

Sara 7:48

Yeah, and I mean, like, Vimes is clearly not being sexist. He's being racist, but just, like, the way that it comes out feels very gendered. I think because there's a pattern of it.

Lilly 8:03

Well, I think that's why it struck you in this book, right? Once is data, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.

Sara 8:10

yeah. So, that was something that I had to sit with for a long time with this book.

Lilly 8:16

I've realized a lot of our notes for this book are fairly negative, and I stand by every single one. Well, except some of them that I disagree with you on, but that's neither here nor there. But if you asked me, did I like this book? I'd say yes.

Sara 8:31

So, I actually kind of feel like this book is very similar to Mort in that respect. Like, Mort, I enjoy as a book when I'm not thinking about it. When I'm just reading it and I'm not trying to analyze it and I'm not trying to, like, talk about it for the podcast, I like Mort. When I actually have to think about it, I'm like, Hmm, this book has a lot of flaws that don't sit well with me. And I think it's the same case with Thud. Like, on a surface level, it's a really fun book, but there's a lot of issues with it that are very evident when you stop and think about them.

Lilly 9:09

Yeah, it's interesting. It's a, I'd say loosely a murder mystery, which we haven't seen a ton of. I guess Vimes has had to solve crimes before, but the murder mystery slash racial tension thing, I don't know. That was well done. I like murder mysteries, so I'm predisposed to like that as a conceit for the novel. But then if I stop at all and think about what's actually happening, what's on the page, I'm like, Ooh. Ugh. But also, happy heartwarming ending! What's not to love?

Sara 9:42

There are some really nice scenes in this book. You know, like, yeah.

Lilly 9:47

I know, I brought this note in a little early, but I felt like we had to address the fact that we are going to be shitting on this book that I actually don't have a problem with. I've read it before. I would read it again. I don't think it's my favorite City Watch book.

Sara 10:01

No, it's not my favorite City Watch book either, but it's a fine book. It just has issues.

Lilly 10:07

I think it's interesting, though, that when you brought up a comparison, you brought up Mort, famously one of the earliest Discworld novels. And I feel like a lot of the issues we have with this book we haven't seen in a couple. And so I think maybe them coming up now is what is so like, where, no, you got rid of this. What are you doing?

Sara 10:26

Yeah.

The Bechdel Test

Lilly 10:27

You fixed this already!

Sara 10:29

That's quite possible. I mean, like, one of the things that I like about this book is that there are a lot of female characters, way more than there are in Mort, for example, where I think Mort has the one, but then none of them pass the Bechdel test because when they're together, they spend all of their time talking about men.

Lilly 10:51

So, a couple of things. One, the Bechdel test is not the end all be all.

Sara 10:56

It's, it's not, no,

Lilly 10:58

I mean, yeah, because we have several female detectives who are discussing a murder victim who was a man. So yeah, they're talking about men.

Sara 11:05

no, I'm not, I'm not talking about the murder victim. Like, all of their conversations that are not about the murder victim are about the men in their lives.

Lilly 11:14

So you're already picking and choosing, which makes this a not very good argument. Except when they're contributing materially to the plot of the novel. Also, I do think our two, so we see Angua, the werewolf on the city watch, and our newest vampire member, Sally? Su Sally. It's gotta be Sally, because Susan's taken, yeah. Bland white name.

Sara 11:38

Well, actually, she has a very long name. Sally's just her nickname.

Lilly 11:43

They clash because of different racial tension. Vampires and werewolves don't get along, that's kind of hand waved away, but I think that's fair. I think that's a very solid fantasy trope, that you get to just say, sure, that's a thing. And so when they're talking about like trying to work together and all of that, I think that's a reasonable conversation.

Sara 12:01

Yes, but a lot of their conversation focuses around Carrot.

Lilly 12:05

Okay, I did dislike that. That's in the spoiler section. But not all of it.

Sara 12:09

I'd say, until the very end, I'd say, like, 95 percent of their conversation is about Carrot.

Lilly 12:16

Okay, but the Bechdel test is pass fail. They did have a conversation that was not about Carrot,

Sara 12:21

Okay, fair.

Lilly 12:22

so.

Sara 12:23

Mostly, I'm using Bechdel Test as a shorthand for saying I don't think that these female characters are particularly strong female characters as written. I have issues with them.

Lilly 12:36

Yeah, the fact that most of their conflict was around the interest of a man was a bummer. And then the rest of their conversation was around Nobby's girlfriend. It just, it is a lot of romantic interest.

Sara 12:49

Yeah, like, most of the conversation that the women in these books have amongst themselves is about a man.

Lilly 12:56

Vimes has a line where, you know, I still don't know which dwarves on the watch identify as women, which is a cool established thing about dwarves in Ankh Morpork, or in the Discworld. And then he goes on to say, But you bring a baby into the watch house and you can tell who's cooing over it. Could you not?

Sara 13:14

I did not like that either, because I famously do not like children.

Lilly 13:19

Right? And then also, like, so many men are baby crazy.

Sara 13:23

Yes! Like, that's not a gendered trait! I'm sorry! Women don't like kids, men do like kids. Like, it just depends on the individual.

Lilly 13:33

that was a pretty, like, eye roll y moment.

Sara 13:35

Yeah.

Lilly 13:36

I don't know how much we can attribute that to Vimes over Pratchett. The line is blurry.

Sara 13:41

Yeah, I'm willing to hear out an argument saying that that's Vimes and not Pratchett, but my inclination is that it's Pratchett, not Vimes.

Lilly 13:49

Or at least Pratchett thought it was funny enough to include.

Sara 13:52

Yeah.

Lilly 13:53

Speaking of funny, what was up with the chicken?

Sara 13:57

You mean the chicken that the painter thought was after him or talked to him or whatever?

Lilly 14:02

Yeah, a very large part of this book revolves around a historical text journal source, whatever, about a painter who paints this very important painting and is also at the same time like descending into madness and he thinks there's a chicken out to get him and I just don't get it. Is it like lol random because it's a chicken and they're not scary? Like, is that all there is?

Sara 14:26

Yeah, I mean, it kind of ties in with a plot point at the very end of the book that's a spoiler, so I'm not gonna talk about it.

Lilly 14:34

That was pretty tenuous. If that whole thing was just to set up that moment.

Sara 14:38

Yeah, it's, that's all I got. That's all I got.

Lilly 14:43

This book also uses the phrase, going postal, over five times.

Sara 14:48

clocked it once. I didn't pay attention more than that, but.

Lilly 14:51

I only made two notes. My first one was, oh, what a reference, ah. And then the last one was at the very end and I was like, could you stop? And there were definitely multiple in between there.

Sara 15:07

Yeah, like, once is fine. Twice is okay. Any more than that and we get the idea, Pratchett. That was the title of your last book.

Lilly 15:16

Yeah, because the first time I was just like delighted because I love that book. Because they kept doing it and doing it and doing it. And then there's a reference to The pin collectors. It's one of the characters in this book collects pins. Which was fun! That was a good reference.

Sara 15:31

that I liked, because that was very seamless in the actual story. And it didn't, like, if you didn't know the reference, it doesn't take you out. If you do know the reference, you're like, oh, I know what that's referencing. And it's not jarring.

Lilly 15:46

Yeah. But at that point I was so jaded. I was like, another one?

Sara 15:51

No, that reference I did genuinely like quite a bit.

Lilly 15:54

Oh, that one, yes, for sure. I don't know, this book, enjoyable. I think that's the word I'll use to describe it.

Sara 16:00

It's fun. Yeah, it's a fun plot.

Lilly 16:03

You feel warm and fuzzy at the end when you get past all of the The fuck is happening?

Sara 16:10

I mean, like, honestly, the chicken stuff didn't bother me. I didn't necessarily find it Laugh Out Loud hilarious, but I was like, okay, that's fine.

Lilly 16:18

That alone, but there is another instance later that we're about to talk about. Well, we're not, because we're going to talk about it at the end where it belongs, but

Sara 16:26

Okay.

Lilly 16:26

if it was just the chicken, yeah, sure. Not every joke lands with every person. Absolutely.

Sara 16:31

Okay, yeah.

Lilly 16:32

But there was more than that. Where I was like, is this just here to be silly? Like, am I missing something?

Sara 16:39

I do know what scene you're referencing, and we will talk about that later. So I will say no more about it.

Lilly 16:45

When should you read this book in the Discworld series? Whenever you're working your way through the City Watch books, I don't know.

Sara 16:51

That's, that's my answer. Like, when you've read the other, the other City Watch books. You'll get to thud. Read it then.

Spoilers

Trolls

Lilly 16:59

As part of our recent Patreon drive, we are doing a round of patron shoutouts. This week I would like to thank Jonathan for all of his support. If you sign up for our Patreon, you get access to weekly bonus content at every support level, and at the 5 level you also get access to monthly exclusive episodes. So thank you again to all of our patrons for making this podcast possible. Without further ado, the remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Okay, so Detritus does have a great time in this book. I mean, he doesn't have a great time, but his character is very well handled, I would say.

Sara 17:45

This is a great book for him. I actually think that it's a great book for trolls in general, because I did like Brick, who is this

Lilly 17:55

Street urchin, basically.

Sara 17:57

Street Urchin, you know, off his mind on drugs, and he witnesses a murder, he does more drugs, eventually he gets to Detritus and Detritus kind of whips him into shape.

Lilly 18:09

I was gonna say takes him under his wing, but okay.

Sara 18:14

He does both, he whips him into shape and takes him under his wing, and he kind of like starts to turn his life around. And I, I really enjoyed seeing that evolution of his character. Not that he's a main character by any means, like he's not.

Lilly 18:29

But he's definitely an important mainstay of Ankh Morpork.

Sara 18:33

No, no, no, I meant Brick.

Lilly 18:34

Oh, okay, yes. No, he's pretty important. He's a very important detail in the murder mystery part.

Sara 18:42

He is important, but he's not a main character.

Lilly 18:45

Oh yeah, for sure,

Sara 18:46

But he is important, yeah. But I really enjoyed seeing Detritus kind of have more of a character in this book than just, you know, the dumb troll.

Lilly 18:56

yeah. And like you said, trolls in general, we get to see, now we have seen trolls in cold weather where their brain starts to work better. That has come up before,

Sara 19:06

Yes.

Lilly 19:07

but we see, oh, I always want to say Cryophase, which I know is not his name. The Crime Lord Troll, whose name is some kind of rock word.

Sara 19:17

Christ of, Christ of Prayers, I think?

Lilly 19:20

Yeah, I'm gonna stick with Crime Lord Troll.

Sara 19:23

It is Chrysoprase though, which is apparently an apple green to dark green variety of Chalcedony.

Lilly 19:29

Good for him.

Sara 19:30

A fibrous rock composed of quartz.

Lilly 19:32

I

Sara 19:34

You're welcome, I know you really wanted to know that.

Lilly 19:36

It's not that I didn't want to know it, it's that I know ahead of time that it's not gonna stick in my brain at all.

Sara 19:43

Interesting, this Lspace wiki page points out that the spelling has changed for his name over the course of the series. His name was spelled with a K in the light fantastic. It had a T in it in weird sisters.

Lilly 19:58

Clearly also a very well established troll character then. I mean, he's the big crime lord in Ankh

Sara 20:03

He has a cameo in The Truth, and shows up in The Light Fantastic, Weird Sisters, Feet of Clay, and Thud.

Lilly 20:11

That's very wide reaching, as far as different eras of Discworld and miniseries of Discworld.

Sara 20:17

Yes. Not actually a lot of books, but wide reaching.

Lilly 20:20

Yeah, his operating base is out of a frozen warehouse so that he can think faster, which is fun. I mean, he tries to pull some shady stuff on Vimes, but he's a crime lord. He's supposed to. That's fine. But we get to see him scheming and trying to pull shady stuff instead of just being a dumb, manipulated beast. We see Detritus being very familial with Brick, which was nice.

Sara 20:43

And I did like that there's another mention of Ruby, because I feel like Ruby, I mean, she came in, what, we see her in

Lilly 20:50

I feel like moving pictures or something.

Sara 20:52

think moving pictures might be the first time we see her. Don't quote me on that, but I think it is. And it's nice to just like, hear a mention of her again, because I liked her in moving pictures.

Lilly 21:02

And it was funny, because Vimes goes, He remembers that Detritus and Ruby were happily married. And I was like, Thank you for reminding me as well! Hehehehe Because I remember Ruby when the name came up, and I clearly remembered what book she came up in, just now. But if you had asked me, Is Detritus married? I would have said, What? Hehehe

Sara 21:23

because it never features in basically any book that talks about detritus. Actually, I think there has been a mention of their marriage or their going out before, but

Lilly 21:32

But it's nice that it came back.

Sara 21:34

yes.

Lilly 21:34

Detritus also gets a couple of really strong moments standing up to Vimes. Because, you know, a lot of this book is, Vimes is investigating a murder, a dwarf has been murdered, the dwarves are insisting a troll did it. That ends up being more complicated than that. But, while Vimes is doing this investigation, he's very worried about offending the dwarves. And, finally, at one point, Detritus is like, How dare you ask a troll to do that? You would never ask a dwarf to do the equivalent of that. You don't want to make them mad, but you don't care about us? Like, what the hell, Vimes?

Sara 22:07

Yeah, it, it felt like nuance that was really needed in the situation, to be honest, because we spend so much time with the dwarves and trying to figure out, like, what's going on, and we don't see a lot of troll sentiments.

Lilly 22:27

At all. They're really just an obstacle, right? They might partake in a race war. That's it. That's really all we know about them. Except that poor Brick unintentionally stumbled into a situation way over his head.

Sara 22:41

Yes.

Lilly 22:42

And Detritus knows that Vimes is a racist asshole.

Sara 22:47

Yeah, and like, not to say that every time there's a situation, both sides deserve equal time, because that's not always true, right? It depends on the situation, but I think in this case, we really did need to see as much, like, sentiment and pushback from the trolls, because they're not any less right or wrong than the dwarves, if that makes sense.

Lilly 23:11

Well, especially in this book, where it's ultimately about the conflict being a mistake. If that wasn't how it was resolved, then it probably would have been fine.

Sara 23:22

Yeah, I mean, like, if it had turned out that, yes, the trolls were the ones who attacked first at Coombe Valley, for example, it would have been fine. In terms of how much time we spend with each perspective, wouldn't have been as good a book if that had been the resolution.

Lilly 23:38

But because it comes down to, it turns out it was all a misunderstanding. The Dwarves and the Trolls mutually respected each other and had been trying to sign a peace treaty when it all went tits up thousands of years ago or whatever. Hundreds of years? Whatever. Hundreds of years ago. Then you do need them to have some kind of equal representation leading up to that reveal.

Sara 23:57

Yes.

Lilly 23:59

So we mentioned this a little bit at the beginning, but Nabi has a girlfriend.

Sara 24:02

Nabi does have a girlfriend. Her name is Tani. Although I think her actual name is, what was it, Betty? Which is funny because Betty is what Nabi goes by in one of the books. Maybe Jingo? Where he first starts to experiment with cross dressing. And I liked Tani a lot. She's a stripper. She's pretty. prettier than she is smart. But I liked the way that Pratchett uses Nobby's interactions with Tawny versus the way that Colin talks about Tawny to try to talk about, you know, the attitude of people towards strippers. Like, sex workers work. I don't think Pratchett gets there all the way. But I think he at least makes a little bit of an attempt.

Lilly 24:51

He at least wants to poke fun at the people who are rude and embarrassed at them.

Sara 24:58

Yes.

Lilly 24:58

So that's good. That's something. I do have some very mixed feelings. Okay, the girl's night. Can we talk about the girl's night?

Sara 25:07

We have to.

Lilly 25:09

It was a fun idea, Sally organizes it because Cheery, the dwarf on the City Watch, and Angua, our werewolf, you know, have been kind of alone. Sally and Angua are helped out of a sticky situation by Tawny.

Sara 25:25

Well, by all of the girls at that strip club.

Lilly 25:28

Yes. And she's like, oh, I want to say thank you and also, like, you know, we should all hang out. Whatever.

Sara 25:33

You're dating someone on the force. Let's get to know you.

Lilly 25:37

That was almost a good moment of bonding. I really didn't love how Sally and Angua just sort of decided that Tawny shouldn't be with Nabi.

Sara 25:48

Yeah, I agree. I mean, we are told in the book that Tawny basically is very, very dumb, but she still deserves to be able to make her own decisions and to have autonomy over her relationships. And so, I feel like it's kind of contrasting with the way that Nobby and Colin are having this discussion where Colin doesn't want Nobby to date Tawny because, Oh, she's a stripper and that's not a good, nice woman. And so at least Sally and Angua are coming at it from the angle of Tawny's too good for Nobby.

Lilly 26:27

too hot for Nabi, and I think that's what doesn't sit well with

Sara 26:32

Yeah, no, I agree.

Lilly 26:34

Like, if Nabi wasn't a good boyfriend, then them taking her aside and going, Hey, you could do better? Sure. Yeah, girl code, whatever. But their entire argument is you're really hot, and Nabi isn't.

Sara 26:47

Yeah.

Lilly 26:48

It's not a good argument, especially as they're bringing all this up. Tani's like, but he's really nice to me and makes me happy. Like, fuck off.

Sara 26:57

And like, he treats her like a person,

Lilly 27:00

Yeah.

Sara 27:01

apparently none of the other people that she's ever met has ever done that to her, so.

Lilly 27:06

Oh, the other argument is. Apparently, she didn't realize that she had options, because no one else has ever asked her out. So I can kind of see, like, cluing her in to that situation, but they're way too controlling about it.

Sara 27:20

Yeah, I mean, a conversation where you say, Girl, you got options. Great, do that. But then, if she decides, yeah, I've got options and the option I choose is to stay with Nabi because he makes me laugh and, you know, we have good conversations. Respect that.

Lilly 27:37

Yeah. And then Pratchett kind of wimps out at the end and has Nobby decide to break up with Tawny for no reason. Like, he just likes a different girl he had a crush on better.

Sara 27:48

She doesn't cook well.

Lilly 27:50

Oh, that's right, he had a reason. That's even worse.

Sara 27:53

Yeah.

Lilly 27:54

So I guess maybe he wasn't a good boyfriend after all. I, maybe, we as readers have a rosy glasses view of Nabi because we don't have to actually interact with him. And maybe Angua, who has known Nabi for a while, can say, I cannot possibly see how he is actually a good boyfriend.

Sara 28:15

Yeah, it's kind of weird because on the one hand, Nabi is the brunt of a lot of jokes. In the Discworld books, except that he's actually a much better human being than Colin. But on the other hand, I don't know, it's weird.

Lilly 28:32

All of the jokes are about him stealing things and being ugly.

Sara 28:36

Mm hmm.

Lilly 28:36

So unless he's stealing things from Tawny, like, stop. Anyway, there's also a supreme dude moment in the narration where after Sally and Angua have gotten back to the watch house, they had both shapeshifted and so they needed clothes. They were covered in mud and they needed clothes and the women at the strip club, like, did them a solid. And there's a line in the dialogue, or in the, sorry, the narrative, Tawny had been very kind, and far more helpful than you might expect from someone wearing six inches of heel and four square inches of clothing.

Sara 29:15

I'm sorry, but what does the amount of clothing you're wearing and the height of your heels have to do with how helpful someone is?

Lilly 29:23

I mean, also, reading into the implication, because she's a stripper, she wouldn't be helpful. Have you ever met a stripper?

Sara 29:31

No, clearly not!

Lilly 29:33

people in the world! Uh, Pratchett has clearly never been in a woman's bathroom at a bar, either.

Sara 29:43

Nope.

Lilly 29:44

That is basic, bottom of the barrel, lowest tier girl code. Like, a woman is saying, Oh no, I am naked, can I have a sweatshirt? Like, the, just the basic misunderstanding.

Sara 29:59

Sometimes it's hard to forget that Discworld was written by a man.

Lilly 30:03

Oh, I think sometimes it's easy to forget that this was not one of those moments. Just, like, the absolute antithesis to reality for the sake of a jab at how little clothing they wear was not worth it.

Angua vs Sally

Sara 30:17

No. Okay, so we've talked about Sally and Angua a little bit in the non spoiler section, a little bit in our discussion about Tawny and the Girl's Night, but like, let's talk about them some more.

Lilly 30:31

Yeah, they're dynamic.

Sara 30:33

Yeah, they're dynamic. As I think I've said, a lot of their dynamic really bothered me. I don't mind the werewolf versus vampire tension. Like, that's fine. It's a trope, right? Play with that. I like playing with that. But so much of their tension revolves around, like, Sally finding Carrot hot, and it just doesn't sit well with me.

Lilly 30:56

Well, especially in this book where, if you didn't Angua were together, Like, this book gives you nothing

Sara 31:04

Yeah.

Lilly 31:05

their relationship.

Sara 31:07

Like, we're told that they're together.

Lilly 31:09

Not even really a little bit. Like, barely. We're barely told. During one of their con I think their big confr their only confrontation. It's just like, jabs and uncomfortableness before this moment. Engi was like, he's mine. And Sally's like, don't you mean you're his? Which, actually, I did like that counter argument. Because then it looped back around to, Vampires being vampire y versus werewolves being werewolf y.

Sara 31:36

As a comeback, in this setting, it's very good.

Lilly 31:40

and then it was used to explore the like just because you're a werewolf doesn't mean you have to be a loyal pet like blah Blah blah meet but that was the only line in the whole book Establishes that they're even in a relationship

Sara 31:53

Yeah. If it had just been, like, that one scene where they argue over him, fine, like you say, it does do some interesting things in that back and forth, but there's so much focus on Carrot as a source of tension between these two women.

Lilly 32:10

Yeah, if it had been handled more like that was a symptom, you know Where they clearly have a problem with each other, and so they're using Carrot to express that. I think it could have gotten really interesting.

Sara 32:24

Yeah. But the way that it is handled, I think, just cheapens the conflict between them.

Lilly 32:30

He makes it about Carrot instead of about them, and he just happens to be caught in the middle. Absolutely.

Sara 32:36

like it, it reduces it to this fighting over a man where it should be focused on these are two people from these clashing cultures or races.

Lilly 32:47

Cultures, I think, is the fantasy races.

Sara 32:51

is werewolf a culture though? I don't, I mean, I guess it kind of is, but

Lilly 32:55

I just think that's the best translation to what makes it interesting.

Sara 32:59

yeah, that's fair. Instead, yeah, it just reduces it to fighting over a man, which I think does not do either of their characters any justice.

Lilly 33:10

I mean, I do still love Ankiwa, though. She gets some really great lines when they have emerged from their delving, shape shifting journey. And they're fully nude, covered in mud, realize they're under a strip club and that Nabi is upstairs. Her conversation with Nabi is amazing.

Sara 33:32

I mean, like, Angua remains great. I like Sally as a person. I just didn't like them together for most of the book.

Lilly 33:41

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, their conflict and dynamic is not well done, but each of them are still wonderful. I just wanted to say that.

Carrot

Sara 33:49

Yes. So, I also had an issue with Carrot. Not that he shows up in this book a lot. He's in here very, very briefly.

Lilly 34:00

He's basically Vimes second in command so that Vimes can go off on adventures.

Sara 34:05

Yes,

Lilly 34:06

Oh, and he does some dwarf stuff, which is fun.

Sara 34:08

I like the dwarf stuff. I don't have any issue with his being the second in command, but part of that involves him, like at the very end of the book, he's talking with Vetinari about things that Vetinari can do to kind of appease Vimes after everything that Vimes has been through and done for Ankh Morpork. And just the view that we're given of Carrot as someone who is actually super smart and very politically savvy doesn't work for me because that's not the Carrot that we've come to know in the previous books. And it felt really out of left field.

Lilly 34:46

You are wrong, and let me tell you why. So, from the very, very first book when we met Carrot, and he's this just like blunt, entirely straightforward, completely dense person. He has always had a sort of, I'm gonna use the word manipulation, although I think I really mean charisma. Something in that, between those two things. When dealing with people and even in the very first book where we were talking about the City Watch we were like, oh Carrot knows the effect he has on people and he does know how to get what he wants out of them He's just also a very straightforward person And I think we've seen him getting this increasing level of political savvy over the course of several books. It is not out of left field. Yes, the first carrot we're introduced to would not be good at, like, dealing with veterinary, but we have slowly seen, in the Uberwald book, I can never remember the name because it's so stupid. Elephants? Something about elephants? Yeah. In that, he absolutely is manipulating the werewolves and stuff. Like, he knows what he's doing. This has been character growth over the course of several books that everyone dismisses because they have a heart on for Vimes. And they're like, therefore Carrot sucks.

Sara 36:03

Well, I can't disagree because, not that I think Carrot sucks, I just don't like him.

Lilly 36:07

You don't have to like him, but this is not out of left field.

Sara 36:10

But, I don't think that it's as explicit in the earlier books as you were making it out to be. And so, it does feel like, to me at least, it feels like a bigger shift in his character than his character arc has thus far brought him.

Lilly 36:29

I, okay, this is the problem with reading these books in publishing order. Because we're trying to remember books we read a year plus ago.

Sara 36:38

Three years ago, really.

Lilly 36:39

Yeah, I said plus. But I remember us having a conversation about, despite how boneheaded he is, he still knows, like, he can get people, he was able to rally armies just by being earnest. And he knew what buttons to press to get people to do what he wanted.

Sara 36:57

okay. I agree that he's charismatic and he knows what buttons to press, but I don't think that he's as calculating as this ending scene, like, makes it.

Lilly 37:07

In the very first book, no, but I do think we have seen that calculation grow over the course of the series.

Sara 37:13

Not enough for me to believe this scene.

Lilly 37:17

So what you're saying is we've needed more carrot all along.

Sara 37:20

Yes, I am actually saying that.

Lilly 37:24

Like, I think the problem is, I mean, at the very beginning, it was sort of up in the air who the main character of the City Watch books was, right? Is it carrot or is it Vimes? Clearly, it is Vimes. And so, Carrot has main character internal life that we are only seeing secondary, tertiary character information of. Yep.

Sara 37:47

I mean, I'm not going to argue with that statement. I think it's correct. Sure, like, Pratchett could have done stuff to make me believe this scene was in character, but we don't get a lot of what I, as a reader, needed to actually feel like this scene was in character.

Lilly 38:04

I, well, if the solution for that is there should have been more carrot all along, then I agree with you completely. And, yeah, his character arc has definitely been shunted to the side, but I don't think it's entirely out of left field. Like, we have seen growth.

Sara 38:22

agree with that. It's not entirely out of left field, but this scene was, I don't want to say abrupt, but, but it was,

Lilly 38:30

It was a huge jump. We see a lot more from him.

Sara 38:34

yeah. It was a big enough jump that I just needed another stepping stone that we don't get.

Lilly 38:39

It's so funny because My comment was, aww, he never would have been able to do that in book one! So I also noticed the jump, obviously.

Sara 38:49

Yeah. Probably the answer is somewhere in between our two perspectives, because we're both on the opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to carrot.

Lilly 38:58

Well, I mean, I agree that we haven't seen all of this on page, but I just think we've gotten enough hints that if you ever gave Carrot the benefit of the doubt, it would not be that crazy that he's groaned this much. We even see it a little bit in this book, early on, when Carrot is in the mines, And he uses, sort of, dwarven mind stuff. I'm not gonna get into the whole, like, glowing leeches thing that they use to see underworld. It's fine. While he's, like, bringing light into the room, He uses it to draw a symbol that he knew would freak out the dwarves. And then he has a conversation with Vimes of like, Well, yeah, you've taught me that when people are stressed out and freaked out, you get more information out of them. So that's why I did that. And so I think that was just sort of like a telegraphing moment of, He's been learning from Vimes. We haven't been seeing it, but it's been happening. So that when he does it at the end, it's not, I don't think it was supposed to be a totally out of left field.

Sara 39:57

I liked that scene in the mines.

Lilly 40:00

And that didn't feel like too much progress, right?

Sara 40:02

No, no, no. That didn't feel like too much. Like, that felt, like, very appropriate to the growth that we've seen from his character. It was just the amount of political savvy that he displays at the end didn't have enough history and context in previous books. I don't know, if we had seen more Carrot in previous books, or if we had seen Carrot do more things like that in previous books, I'd have been fine.

Lilly 40:30

We are both reading the same thing. However, we are making assumptions out of a smash cut, which I think is interesting to explore. Vimes is talking to the Dwarf King, the Low King.

Sara 40:43

Reese.

Lilly 40:44

Yes, thank you. All I'm going to ask for is that these prisoners are under my jurisdiction. And then we see some of his internal thought where Well, if I keep Sally on the City Watch, then everyone will know that I allowed them to keep a spy, which means I have leverage over them in the future. So it's possible that Vimes told Carrot to go do that. We are assuming that that was Carrot's idea.

Sara 41:08

It is possible that Vimes told Carrot to do that, but if he had told Carrot to do that, I would have wanted at least a sentence hinting at that.

Lilly 41:16

Yeah, like I said, I also interpreted it as Carrot going rogue and trying to get the stuff he

Sara 41:22

Yeah.

Lilly 41:23

But I do think it's interesting that that's how we read that, despite knowing that Vimes has gotten very political and reading that smash cut that way.

Sara 41:32

I mean, I do think that you have a point about Carrot having main character energy without getting main character page time, and so he has main character growth and we as the reader just don't see a lot of that. And you might be right that that's coming out in this scene.

Lilly 41:50

Well, we definitely should have gotten more hints along the way. Like, I agree with that.

Sara 41:55

I just needed a little bit more in order to fully buy into that scene.

Lilly 42:00

And if we're just talking about that scene at the end, then yeah, I agree. I mean, I'm willing to give him that space because I like him. And there is a lot that we see off page, but having character development off page is kind of bad.

Sara 42:16

Yeah, like, I want that character development to happen on page! Or at least be alluded to on page, I don't know.

Lilly 42:25

But I do think that we have seen growth over time. This has just been a leap that was not warranted.

Sybil Deserves Better

Sara 42:32

right. I mean, we have seen Carrot grow as a character, but like I said, I just needed another stepping stone in order to get to this final spot.

Lilly 42:40

Well, Sybil almost has a moment in this book where an assassin comes after her family. And she does use a dragon to blow him up. And that was pretty good. I did love that.

Sara 42:53

That was great. Honestly, I love that for Sybil. There was a lot in this book that I didn't love for Sybil, but that I did.

Lilly 43:00

Yeah. We finally saw her doing dragon stuff again, which is how she's introduced. Her introduction is so badass. Like, she's a loose cannon. All of the other nobles think she's crazy because she likes to hang out with dragons instead of people. Like, Sybil was great. And then immediately got turned into this awful stereotype. Vimes makes fun of her for, internally, which is worse than doing it to her face, for being bad at darning socks, but thinking she's supposed to, so doing it anyway. And it's like, motherfucker. Let this woman have a hobby and shut the fuck up.

Sara 43:38

Yeah, like, Sybil, when we meet her, has so much potential as a female character, as a character, and then she kind of gets relegated to the woman in a marriage, and Pratchett, for all that he's talking about.

Lilly 43:55

Reportedly a good husband.

Sara 43:58

Well, for all that he is reportedly a good husband, and for all that he has some really incredible female characters, when it comes to marriage, he kind of has a blind spot, I think. And all of his Married women perpetuate this very outdated marriage dynamic where the nagging wife, you know, they darn socks, but they're not good at it. They have their opinions, but when it's really important, they shut up and listen to their husband.

Lilly 44:28

They think it's more important to sit for a family portrait than solve crime. That was a big one in this book. I do think a lot of it is just Playing in two tropes of the time this book came out in 2005 and I mean there was a big era of Wife bad, isn't it funny?

Sara 44:46

Yeah.

Lilly 44:48

It's weird reconciling him punching down in that way With all of the first person accounts of him being a actual loving and supportive husband.

Sara 44:58

Yeah. I agree.

Lilly 45:00

I don't know how his wife could read this book and not go, Ouch! Maybe she thought it was funny, too. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but like, ouch.

Sara 45:11

I mean, 2005 was a different time. I certainly wasn't old enough to recognize some of the bad wife dynamics, because that was not where my head was at. I mean, I was 15 and not thinking about husband wife stereotypes at all. But yeah, I just, I want more for Sybil. Sybil deserves better.

Lilly 45:33

Yeah,

Sara 45:33

I think what's interesting is that we actually see the same, I would say, a very similar marriage dynamic in Nanny Ogg and all of her husbands, except that we see it from Nanny's perspective.

Lilly 45:50

maybe.

Sara 45:51

I mean, she is, like, if you actually look at her character, or her character's actions, and, like, take away how great Nanny is, she is terrible to her daughter in laws, like,

Lilly 46:03

Terrible. Yeah.

Sara 46:04

She's nagging, she abuses them, like, it feels like the same character tropes, just from the female perspective.

Lilly 46:15

Some kind of female perspective.

Sara 46:16

Well, some kind of female perspective,

Lilly 46:19

The Herod and Wife. Yeah, I think the main difference I see between Nanny and Sybil is that, now maybe it is just because Nanny is in books about the witches, she's never written as having the wrong priorities. Like, yeah, she's mean, but she's a witch. She saves people's lives. She makes sure the community functions. Whereas Sybil is nice, But also, thinks fancy clothes are important. What an idiot.

Sara 46:48

I do think that a lot of that is just because those books are about the witches,

Lilly 46:55

Yeah.

Sara 46:55

and these books are not about Sybil.

Lilly 47:00

Okay, we do have to talk about, are you my cow?

Sara 47:03

Yes.

Lilly 47:04

Are you though, Sarah?

Sara 47:06

I'm not your cow. And the pugs don't go moo, they go So they can't be your cow either.

Lilly 47:21

Will my cats go? So they're also not my cow. That was very fun though. This would be a really fun book to read to a little kid.

Sara 47:31

I'm, I'm really mad about the existence of the Are You My Cow book, which is a real children's book that Pratchett published, except that it has a framing story of Vimes like Coming home and trying to tell Sam Jr. the Ankh Morpork version, which doesn't work if you want to give this book to a young child. Like, it only works if you are a fan of Discworld or the recipient is a fan of Discworld. And I'm mad about that because I wanted to give it to our cousin who just had a child and she had a baby shower and I wanted to give it to her and then I actually, like, found a YouTube video of someone reading it and was like, oh, this is not just Are You My Cow, it has this whole other story that requires a lot of context and doesn't work for a bedtime story.

Lilly 48:23

It's like it's trying to be two things. It's trying to be a cute Discworld short story and an actual children's book and trying to straddle that line means it does neither.

Sara 48:34

Yes.

Lilly 48:35

But it's very cute. I was very warmed to the cockles of my heart. Is that how that phrase works? In the cockles of my heart? What is a cockle, and why does a heart have it? Everyone stop, we're doing Words Are Weird right now.

Sara 48:49

a cockle is an edible marine bivalve mollusk.

Lilly 48:53

What?

Sara 48:56

And so let's see, the Sydney Morning Herald.

Lilly 49:00

That is a phrase, right? I didn't just make that up, right?

Sara 49:04

No, it is, it is a phrase. 19 years ago, the Sydney Morning Herald published, What are the cockles of your heart and why do they need warming? So one of the meanings of cockle is the chamber of a kiln. So I guess not a marine bivalve. In reference to the heart, it refers to the chambers. So, when something warms the cockles of our heart, it is a reference to something pleasant that makes our heart beat faster and makes us feel good.

Lilly 49:33

So it's just heartwarming, but with more steps.

Sara 49:36

Yes. The cockles of the heart are its Oh, these are people actually giving answers, not, like, not an article with citations.

Lilly 49:47

is just people's opinions.

Sara 49:49

apparently.

Lilly 49:50

is unvetted people's opinions.

Sara 49:53

Apparently.

Lilly 49:55

Awful.

Sara 49:56

Yeah, so I, I mean, they might not be wrong, but I take it all back. What does Merriam Webster say? That's not helpful. It doesn't give the etymology, it just gives the definition.

Lilly 50:07

So it sounds like the cockles are the inner workings, the inner machinations of a forge. So if it warms the cockles of your heart, you're like, it's so heartwarming that it reaches all the nooks and crannies and internal workings of my ticker.

Sara 50:22

documented use in 1671. Corruption of the Latin for ventricles, in Ventricles of the Heart. Earlier attempt to explain the etymology no longer noted in reference works.

Lilly 50:34

I love warms the ventricles of my heart or even just warms my ventricles. That's so mysterious I love it. I'm gonna use that from now on.

Sara 50:44

Excellent.

Lilly 50:46

Oh my god. Okay. What were we talking about? Oh, are you my cow? The ongoing theme in this book, maybe almost a bee plotline, warms the ventricles of my heart Because Sam Vimes is home at 6pm every night to read this story to his son, like who's like one or two, very little,

Sara 51:10

Yes, his son who was born at the very end of Nightwatch.

Lilly 51:14

and we have no idea how long it's been since then.

Sara 51:17

We don't. A couple of books.

Lilly 51:20

Yeah, it's implied that, I mean, this is not a newborn, right? This is a kid who has some language skills. He babbles a little bit. It was very sweet. Like, throughout the whole book, we have a couple of different scenes. Actually, I thought it was kind of too much page time, but I enjoyed it, so it was fine.

Sara 51:37

I mean, I like it because it gives Vimes a line in the sand, right? Like, so much of this book is about him and his work, and we're trying to understand that he's also a family man, even though that demand doesn't always align with the demands of his work. And so this is his line in the sand. Yes, he might ignore the family portrait, You know, painting, for good reason.

Lilly 52:03

Because Sybil's a stupid idiot, yes.

Sara 52:06

But, rain or shine, you know, whatever's happening, he will be home at six o'clock to read the story to his son, because his family is important to him, even though he ignores a lot of the other things that his wife thinks is important, and that is important to her.

Lilly 52:22

It's also an interesting Okay, as much as I complain about the title, because The Fifth Elephant is a really stupid title, that's a very good book. And a lot of it is Well, not a lot of it. There is a conflict in that book between Sybil and Vimes about his bad work life balance. And so I feel like, if you were gonna be generous, you could make the argument that in this book we are seeing Vimes say, No, I'm gonna prioritize my family. And that's good. That is good growth for him. He needs better work life balance.

Sara 52:56

think we're seeing him try to prioritize his family in this book. I don't think he's successful. necessarily.

Lilly 53:04

he does a better job in this one than he did in the fifth elephant.

Sara 53:07

He does.

Lilly 53:08

This is an improvement, I should

Sara 53:09

Yeah, I like, I think that with this, you know, reading to his son, we get a very definite sense that he's trying. He doesn't always succeed, but he is trying.

Lilly 53:21

Sybil clearly appreciates that. That is one thing where she's not shitty.

Sara 53:24

Yes.

Lilly 53:25

And she has faith in him and it's actually very sad when he's late. Because he's like going through a near death experience at the end of the book and she's with her friends and her friends are behind her back going, Don't mention it. Don't mention it. He's probably dead. And she's like, he'll be here soon.

Sara 53:41

Yeah, I, that's kind of heart wrenching, actually.

Are You My Cow?

Lilly 53:45

whole thing was very good. Uh, oh, but then there's this moment, there's this scene where, okay, so apparently Vimes has been possessed by some sort of darkness demon because Some dwarves were murdered to cover up some bad politics. It read the book. Get read the book. A dwarf summoned a curse and it latched onto Vimes because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But also he does have some darkness in his heart or whatever. But he's fallen down into this mine. He's been bashed around, almost drowned. His little weird watch demon, his gooseberry, his blackberry, reminds him. That it is, like, half an hour until six and he has to go read his son a bedtime story. And so, the final conflict, the main event of this novel, is Vimes screaming the words to Are You My Cow while he rampages through the bad dwarves like operations. And I don't get it.

Sara 54:57

I mean, I, I'm not sure if there's anything to get beyond what you've said.

Lilly 55:03

Seriously?

Sara 55:04

It doesn't seem that deep to me.

Lilly 55:08

does it? It's not that funny. Like,

Sara 55:12

Well, it is, it is the way that you've described it.

Lilly 55:15

well, it's cause I'm a good storyteller, but thank you. I just, in the moment, it's supposed to be very dramatic, it feels. Like the way it's spoken about and the way the narration handles it. You're supposed to be very touched and like, oh, you know, Vimes is reading the story to his son even though he's nowhere near him

Sara 55:34

And his son is somehow hearing it.

Lilly 55:36

Yeah, which is not explained at all. And so it's just him, like, with a battle axe in one hand and a sword in the other, screaming, you go rop! You're not my cow, you're a hippo! And it, it's not that funny. I don't know. I don't, don't get it. And I feel like a lot about the climax of this book. I was just like, really?

Sara 56:02

Yeah, I agree. So, I do think that the end of this book is a little bit of a letdown, both in that and in the way that Vimes has been manipulated by this dwarven curse. Like, I don't mind that it's latched onto him and that it's kind of like stoking the flames, like, stoking his anger, right? Like, it's making him A little angrier, a little more prone to just acting on that hair trigger that he normally keeps in control. But at the very end of it, one of the things that happens in this final conflict, where he's yelling about how you're not his cow, is We see this interior conflict between, I'm gonna call it the personification of this curse, and the personification of Vimes interior watchman who watches him to make sure that he's not doing bad things. And I was just kind of, like, that was so cheesy, right? Like, I like the fact that Vimes needs to keep control of himself and needs to make sure that he's not overdoing it because he can go too far. But to have an actual, like, watchman appear out of the dark in his game, Conscious, or in the representation of his consciousness. Like, that was just too on the nose.

Lilly 57:32

It's very on the nose. And then we also get lines like, Inhales from cigarette. I think you misunderstand. I am not here to keep the darkness out. I am here to keep it in.

Sara 57:47

Yeah, it was, it was, no, it didn't work for me.

Lilly 57:51

No! And, okay, honestly, missed opportunity. You know I'm a sucker for the power of love and friendship. Like, if the defining moment had been That, like, Vimes insistence on reading Are You My Cow to his son was what pushed the darkness out because he had higher priorities. His priorities were nurturing rather than vengeance. Like, that could have been really good and really powerful.

Sara 58:22

And I feel like that was kind of what Pratchett was trying to do, but he, he waters down the message with this scene. Um,

Lilly 58:33

It's because we, we get snippets, or I don't, I shouldn't say it's because of. We get snippets of what we later realize was this curse trying to break into Vimes's consciousness, personified as this demon trying to, like, get into a city or whatever. And it's like, oh, in retrospect, that was his mind, because his mind is the city of Ankh Morpork. That's cute, I guess. But, I don't know, it's too many things.

Sara 59:01

Yeah, it, I, I agree, I would have much preferred to see this curse rebuffed because Vimes is so focused on his family and, you know, being a good father. And that's also, like, kind of what rebuffs the curse all of the other times we see it. So the fact that it's suddenly That Vimes has this inner watchman, which has been talked about before, to be fair.

Lilly 59:29

Oh, the, the who watches the Watchmen. is a long standing joke,

Sara 59:35

like, that's a, that's a theme through a lot of the Vimes books, but to have it be so Not blatant, because it's always been blatant, but yeah, concrete, like to have it be an actual figure in his mind.

Lilly 59:51

Especially because the idea that the Watchmen need a Watcher is obviously a very important concept. And so that's always been, like, to me, previously, it has felt like Vimes conceding that, yes, we need oversight.

Sara 1:00:09

Yes.

Lilly 1:00:10

And in this book, they get an auditor, basically an auditor, an internal affairs person, I don't know what you'd call him, and instead of letting him, like, make sure that Vimes is not abusing his power, VMs like flips him to his side, which I guess is cool, but also nobody, you don't get to be the guy who watches you. That's not how this works. let there be checks and balances.

Sara 1:00:37

is kind of missing the point.

Lilly 1:00:40

Yeah. Who watches the Watchman? Me and I'm also the watchman. And don't think about it too hard.

Sara 1:00:48

Yeah, like, on the one hand, I really like how he converts the auditor.

Lilly 1:00:55

Well, the auditor has a great character arc. I love the auditor

Sara 1:00:58

like, and I think that's what I like about that conversion, because it's really satisfying. But on the other hand, from just a standpoint of Nod dude, he's supposed to, like, provide some oversight for you, and you have literally admitted to cooking the books because Nobby steals stuff, and you've decided that that's okay, and that the value he brings is more than the value that you would get from saying you can't have thieves on your staff.

Lilly 1:01:29

If you thought that argument really held up. You'd make that argument.

Sara 1:01:33

Yeah.

Lilly 1:01:34

yeah, that's his bonus, it's in the budget,

Sara 1:01:38

Yeah.

Lilly 1:01:39

deal with it.

Sara 1:01:40

Like, if you're going to make that argument, make the argument not just in your head.

Lilly 1:01:46

Yeah, especially because like, Vet Nari, who's the one who sent the auditor, clearly understands underhanded shady dealings. So, like, who you trying to fool? My guy?

Sara 1:01:57

This is Ankh Morpork. I mean,

Lilly 1:02:01

It sat so wrong. I don't know. I love the idea that there's a police force out there that's trying to prevent a riot instead of instigate one. That's like a really fun fantasy that I can just like indulge in in this book. But Vimes makes it hard, dude.

Sara 1:02:22

he does sometimes make it hard.

Lilly 1:02:25

And all of that wraps back around to I liked this book.

Sara 1:02:30

If you don't think about it too hard, it's a great book.

Lilly 1:02:34

The warm and fuzzy ending with like, it turns out dwarves and trolls shouldn't hate each other. And they're gonna be friends now because they found the secret answer. I love that. There should be a cave in every country that's like, if you find what's in this cave, everyone will love each other and never kill each other again. I, like, let's do that. Can we please do that?

Sara 1:02:58

I don't think the real world works that way. I'm not even sure that Ankh Morpork or Discworld works that way, but

Lilly 1:03:04

No, but like I said, nice fantasy.

Sara 1:03:07

it is a nice fantasy.

Lilly 1:03:09

And this is a fantasy novel, so I get to indulge in those. But if you stop and think about any aspect of it for more than 30 seconds, you're like, Oh,

Sara 1:03:21

Yup.

Lilly 1:03:23

worth reading, but oof.

Sara 1:03:26

I really want to like this book. When I don't think about it too hard, I like this book.

Lilly 1:03:31

No, I do, I do like this book. I just think it's deeply flawed. It can be both.

Sara 1:03:37

Maybe. I mean, when I think about it too hard, I don't like this book. But

Lilly 1:03:40

Okay, it left me feeling so good that I think that trumps a lot of the problems.

Sara 1:03:47

if I'm reading for enjoyment, I enjoy this book. if I'm reading for the podcast. No, I don't.

Lilly 1:03:54

Has this podcast ruined reading for you? I'm so sorry.

Sara 1:03:58

It's not ruined reading for me, but it has sometimes ruined podcast books when I read them for the podcast.

Lilly 1:04:06

It forces you to think about it. Yeah.

Sara 1:04:08

I don't like to do that about my books. My escapism.

Lilly 1:04:13

I think escapism is fine and we should just acknowledge that that's what it is.

Sara 1:04:17

Oh, I'm like, I'm 100%. I'll always acknowledge that I read for escapism. I'm not an English major. I don't think about my books. I just read them.

Lilly 1:04:27

But if you're forced to talk about it for an hour and a half,

Sara 1:04:31

except when you force me to read things for the podcast.

Lilly 1:04:34

you could have taken notes about this book that were all the things you did like about it.

Sara 1:04:39

They weren't, I mean, we, we talked about the few things.

Lilly 1:04:44

I'm just saying.

Sara 1:04:45

To be fair, the next time I read this book, it won't be for the podcast. I'll have a great time.

Lilly 1:04:51

I still had a great time. I don't know. Maybe I'm just good at compartmentalizing, but

Sara 1:04:56

also an English major.

Lilly 1:04:58

True. I'm professionally trained in reading a book and going, That sucks, I loved it.

Sara 1:05:03

Yes, you've got a lot more practice than I do.

Lilly 1:05:07

This is a good example. It's fine. I wouldn't say it's a good book, but I'd say it's a fun book. It's enjoyable. Anyone who's reading the City Watch books, you're in for a treat.

Sara 1:05:17

Except for all of the things that we have spent the last hour and a half talking about at length that we didn't like.

Lilly 1:05:23

But that'll just be a workout when you roll your eyes so hard. Silver lining. No downside!

Sara 1:05:36

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Lilly 1:05:39

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, BlueSky, Instagram, and TikTok at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Sara 1:05:51

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and follow us wherever your podcasts live.

Lilly 1:05:58

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Sara 1:06:05

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!