Fiction Fans

Author Interview: Evocation by S.T. Gibson

• Lilly Ellison • Episode 142

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Your hosts are joined by S.T. Gibson to talk about her new novel, Evocation. They discuss religious characters from all over the spectrum, occult research, and the allure of secret societies. They also talk about headlight writing, flexible series arcs, and the challenges around writing a polyamorous romance plotline.


Find more from S.T. Gibson:

https://www.instagram.com/stgibsonauthor/ 

https://saint.substack.com/ 


Find Fiction Fans on Discord and Patreon


Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License


Lilly:

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words, too. I'm Lily.

Sara:

And I'm Sarah, and I am so pleased that tonight we have with us S. T. Gibson to talk about her latest novel, Evocation. Welcome!

Saint:

Hi, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Lilly:

Oh, thank you so much for joining us. Cannot wait to talk about this delightful book. But before we jump in, what is something great that happened for everyone recently?

Sara:

go first. So I just got back from JordanCon, which is a Wheel of Time convention held in Atlanta, Georgia, and that was a lot of fun. I did not get a lot of sleep, but I hung out with a lot of friends that I only see once a year, so it was great.

Lilly:

That's awesome. Have you recovered yet? Are you still recovering?

Sara:

I am still recovering. It's gonna take a while.

Lilly:

Saint, how about you?

Saint:

Life is pretty good right now. I love sunshine. I'm very solar powered and new England is in bloom and it's been warmer and sunshiny. So like every day is a blessing in that way. But I went to a friend's 30th birthday party this weekend and it was just a lovely time. Good vibes. We, you know, had cake and punched and played game show style games and it's just, it's really lovely to be able to celebrate like a milestone like that with someone. So that was fun.

Lilly:

Fantastic.

Sara:

That sounds really nice.

Saint:

Yeah.

Lilly:

I saw Fat Ham last week, which is an adaptation of Hamlet, that takes place at a barbecue in the south. And it was fantastic and amazing, and that had an ending that I did not expect, despite having read Hamlet many times. Mmm!

Saint:

fun. One of the best Shakespeare adaptations I ever saw was a Romeo and Juliet set in Appalachia with like feuding working class Appalachian families. It was so good.

Sara:

Oh, that sounds excellent.

Saint:

love it. Remix. Yeah.

Lilly:

Like that Hatfield and McCoy's, right? That's awesome. That's perfect. Yeah. Well, what is everyone drinking this evening? I have pomegranate juice, because I think pomegranate is the most occult fruit. I I think it fit. Yeah.

Saint:

your own little journey to the underworld via your

Sara:

I am drinking water because I did not get enough sleep at JordanCon, and I definitely did not drink enough water at JordanCon, so I'm making up for lost time.

Saint:

hydration. I love it. And I am drinking a brew doctor, mango kombucha, which is really, really good.

Lilly:

Oh, that sounds excellent.

Saint:

Fruit in it as well, which I really like. Yeah.

Lilly:

I've only gotten into kombucha lately, but

Saint:

My mom is a big kombucha person. She's like very big into like natural health. And she'd always make me drink it when I was a kid and be like, I don't like this. But the older I get, I'm like, you're onto something. I'm into it. So I'm in my kombucha era. It's

Lilly:

So this is actually a podcast about books. Surprise. I know, we didn't start that way. But, uh, has anyone read anything good lately? Other than, of course, what we are about to discuss at length.

Sara:

On the plane to Atlanta, I read Apollo Weeps, and I don't actually remember who the author was. But it's a novella, it's one of the Subjective Chaos kind of awards, novella nominations this year. And I really liked it. I probably was not quite enough of a theater kid to like, have it be just my novella. But it was good. Like all of the nominees, it's excellent, and I'm glad that I read it.

Saint:

awesome. I have been like, pretty deep into doing research for Summoner Circle Book Two, the follow up to Evocations. I've just been reading a lot of like, Occultism and philosophy and historical articles and stuff like that. But one good book that I read earlier this year that I really, really loved, where did it go? I'm on my Instagram right now, because that's the only way I remember anything that's ever happened to me. I really liked, where did it go? Oh, A Song for the Wild Bill by Becky Chambers.

Sara:

Yes! Yes, excellent.

Saint:

Really enjoyed that one. I am kind of touch and go with reading fiction. I either am not reading it at all for like a month and I can't You know, read a chapter of a book without getting distracted, or I'm really in the fiction flow and I just like eat them up and consume them back to back to back. And Song for the Wild Bill was what broke my last kind of fallow period in reading and it's really, really beautiful, really, really thoughtful, cozy in some ways, but also puts forward some really cool ideas about like, A relationship with nature and machines and society and I really enjoyed it. So I, it was my first Becky Chambers. It was a good introduction to that body of work, I think.

Lilly:

Awesome. Yeah, I've loved what work of hers I've read, although I haven't read as much of it as I should,

Sara:

And you do own a psalm for the wild built because I bought two copies and gave you one.

Lilly:

know! That's the worst part! Oh, there's so many books in so few hours in the day!

Sara:

Isn't that the truth?

Saint:

Mm hmm.

Sara:

But talking about evocation, you mentioned that you're knee deep in research for book two. What is your research process like?

Saint:

Ooh, it's chaotic. So I feel like a lot of times when I write books, You know, I write them for an audience. I'm really a writer who is driven to share with other people and connect to other people in that way. I'm not kind of like a hermit author who's in more conversation with myself, but I do feel like a lot of my books are in some ways me having a conversation with myself about things that are interesting or exciting or important to me and synthesizing things that I've read and been thinking about for a while. So the Summoner Circle series is quite interesting. cool because I've kind of been a lifelong student of religion and philosophy and magic in all different kinds of ways and you know, spirituality is really a big part of my life. So it's me bringing in things that I've learned before, but also it's a great excuse for me to just keep reading and keep growing. So you know, I'm trying to get into reading some young right now I have the red book, which is a work of psychoanalysis. And kind of, it's a nonfiction, it's pretty dense, but it also deals with some esoteric themes and some mythic themes. I've been reading just some more history about previous secret societies that existed in history or that are still ongoing. Brushing back up on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and particularly reading a little bit more about Thalema and about Western Hermeticism for Book Two. Because Book Two deals a little bit more heavily with that than book one does. So I've just kind of been in my, my little esoteric, you know, girly flow. So it's a mix. Sometimes it's, it's physical books I own. There's a really good bookstore called Seven Stars in Boston that I miss very much because I don't live in the city anymore. That has some really great occult and esoteric books there that you can't really get otherwise unless you order them online. But I also, We'll read the occasional academic article, the occasional pop culture article and kind of synthesize it all. I'm pretty omnivorous in that way. And I'm pretty chaotic. I always have grand plans to like order my research and have like a research Bible. And that never happens.

Lilly:

I really love the mental image of you, like, sitting there, surrounded by books, all, like, open to different pages, and then also crystals. Because, yeah, you have to have crystals if you're reading about the occult, right?

Saint:

They're on a big shelf behind me.

Lilly:

Perfect!

Sara:

and that's, that's basically an image that we get in the book, right, with Rhys and his, his research.

Saint:

absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, that's what the vibe has been recently, but I really enjoy it. I really appreciate any opportunity to stay curious and to stretch my own assumptions and to learn new things. And for me, I think the things I never get tired of learning about is religion and magic and spirituality because there's so much of it. It's all of human history and. There's so many beautiful, diverse living traditions to learn about as well. So it's been a great time.

Lilly:

And you have a pretty strong academic background in theology as well.

Saint:

So a little bit about me. I went to undergrad for creative writing. I trained as a poet first and then moved into long form fiction. And then I went to grad school. I went to Princeton seminary and got a master's in theological studies because I was training to be an Episcopalian priest and in grad school, I discerned that I didn't want to be a priest. I didn't want to be a professor and I wanted to write romance novels, but I, I loved my time there and I learned and you know, I really benefited from having that structure and that opportunity to follow my own interest and kind of build my own adventure. Cause I truly about six months into the first year of a two year degree was like, Oh, I don't think either of these. Most other people are on. There's maybe three paths at the seminary. You were typically training to be in ministry as a pastor or priest, you were training to be like a social worker or a chaplain, or you were training to be a professor. And those three paths didn't really work out for me. Um, But I was able to study a lot of things that I'm really passionate about. And I was able to volunteer and work in some really cool environments and just learn a lot about people and trauma and conflict resolution and community building and things that are really, really valuable while also, you know, spending way too much time in the occult section of the library, sitting on the ground, reading these old books when I should have been studying for my, you know, history of religion class. I

Lilly:

How did your studies impact the occult and the version of the world that we see in Evocation?

Saint:

started cooking the Summoner Circle series about seven years ago when I was in grad school. my last year of grad school, which is kind of what I returned to really intentionally and consistently writing fiction for the intent of publication. And there are some characters in evocation who are quite religious, some characters who are a religious, and some characters who are, uh, Kind of, you know, like Lita, who's kind of just chaotic and grab bag and whatever the universe is doing at any time, I want to ride that wave and feel that frequency. And it was really fun to explore all these different philosophies and these different ways of looking at life that I was learning about through different characters. And I feel like religion, to some extent gets woven through a lot of my work in different ways. And you usually have like, at least, I can't get away from it, there's usually at least one character in any book that's like holding down the of like having all of the religious angst and the big thoughts, if not more than that. And the Summoner's Circle series is really free reign for me to play with all of these things that I love learning about and talking about and do it in a fun, sexy way in an urban fantasy romance. Like this other thing that I love, which is like love and sex and soapiness. And it's been really, really fun to blend them.

Lilly:

Well, you mentioned that you love romance stories. Are there other types of stories that you also like to read, or is that, like, your favorite? Your go to?

Saint:

I have really grown into loving romance the older I get, and it is one of my go to genres. I like a lot of sub genres of romance. I like historicals, monster romance, dark romance, erotic romance, and just like a fluffy rom com. So like I really am pretty voracious when it comes to romance. But I also read a lot of non fiction and I read a lot of speculative fiction. So those tend to be kind of the three genres that I go to that inform a lot of my writing and that are just really pleasurable for me to read. But I also will occasionally pick up a lit fic book. I'll occasionally pick up, what do I have in here? Yeah, it's mostly nonfiction, fantasy, and romance. Pretending like I read more widely than I do. But I, I just try to get out of my comfort zone with at least a few books a year and see what's going on over, over in the lit fic world, or what's going on over in the historical fiction world, you know?

Sara:

Absolutely.

Lilly:

It's always hard to balance, like, what you know is going to be a hit versus trying something new.

Saint:

Truly. And I, as a person, I think we all do, but I, one of my, I think, failings of character is that I really tend towards comfort, like comfort, pleasure, coziness, the familiar, especially when I'm seeking out stories. So something I've been really trying to do over the last couple years is just give a shot to like books and movies that I hear about and I'm like, well, I probably won't like that. It's like, no, you don't know this. You don't know. A great example, one of my favorite TV series of all time, phenomenal, is Twin Peaks. And I assumed I wasn't going to like it because I was like, well, it just seems kind of weird. And like, I don't really like the aesthetic and it doesn't seem like it was handcrafted in a lab for me. And then I tried it and it's phenomenal. It's one of my favorite things. So I'm, I'm trying to be a little bit more adventurous.

Sara:

So, we noticed that there were some parallels between academia and the secret society, particularly given that, you know, some of the characters in the secret society were working in academia, and we thought that it, framed really nicely two of the major thematic conflicts in the book. You know, like there's old versus new money and then there's also gender inequality in the society. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Saint:

Absolutely. I love magical communities. And I think that magical communities, whether it's a secret society or a coven or a reading group or a terror group, whatever it may be, it can really be a nourishing, nurturing place, but it also has all of the failings of you know, humanity. So I think it's kind of good sometimes to temper your expectations when you're entering any religious or spiritual space of this might be a place where I find deep healing and deep nourishment and connection, but it will also be a place where humans are humaning and we're dealing with internal biases or external biases or all of the isms that we live with on a daily basis. So yeah, I do think class and I do think gender come up a lot when we're talking about the society, the Boston society in the book. Hopefully I did it in a way that was You know, had something to say without dominating the narrative too much, but it was really important to me. And particularly when you're looking at the society where Reese is a member, it's structured in Hermeticism or really in the tradition of something like the Golden Dawn or like the OTO or like the Lima. And for anyone that's been in those spaces, there are some wonderful women working in the space, but it does tend to be a boys club. And it does still tend to be a place where, you know, having the resources to do really intricate rituals that take a lot of time and preparation and just space, like you need to have empty space to cast a nine foot circle minimum to do some of these rituals. And to just like, get some of these boys Texts that are really hard to get your hands on and really expensive can be prohibitive. And it's just a subject to any other bias that any other group of people might be. So I wanted to explore that, you know, there is one woman who's really trying to get into the society in evocation. And there's a lot of tension between especially recent David who kind of stand in for like old money and like, Up and coming, you know, trying to get your foot in the door and trying to call in more financial abundance in certain ways. That's an interesting friction in their relationship. So yeah, I had fun.

Lilly:

Well, you mentioned Leta earlier, and she is one of a few really incredible side characters that we get in this book.

Saint:

you. I love her.

Lilly:

I hope we're going to see more of her in the future.

Saint:

Promise you will promise. Lita comes in pretty late in Evocation. She's an important character, and I have a lot in store for her, and something that's been really, really fun as I build out the rest of the books in the series is giving some of the other side characters more depth and breathing room and exploration. While still kind of focusing the narrative on this main trio that we meet in Evocation. So Lita is a goth, rock star, chaos magician. Maybe she's a cult leader. We're not sure, but like benign, we hope.

Sara:

I also hope that we see more of Lorena because she was fantastic as well. I loved her.

Saint:

I love Lorena. Yes. She's wonderful. She's kind of David's surrogate, one of his surrogate family members. And she's a very powerful practitioner of Santeria who runs one of the magical resource shops in the city. So I love her very much.

Lilly:

So something that we've run into over the course of talking about books is how genre definitions vary broadly from person to person and tend to be very personal.

Saint:

Very true. Yes,

Lilly:

Would you tell our listeners what genres you would consider evocation?

Saint:

evocation is an urban fantasy romance. However, if you want to say it's a romantic fantasy, you're not wrong. A contemporary fantasy, you're not wrong. But I was really inspired by those early aughts, like urban fantasies. I grew up reading like I loved Borderland. I was reading like the Dresden Files. I love the John Constantine Hellblazer comics. It's a big inspiration. So I wanted to kind of do a send up to that genre while putting my own spin on it. And, you know, subverting some tropes and modernizing some things, but I've also, I know that evocation is kind of a slippery book in terms of genre. It is kind of, I mean, most authors are like, the book is many genres and that's true because we know it very well, but you know, people have categorized it as many different genres and I don't want to say, Oh, you're wrong. But when I'm pitching it and when I'm thinking about it, I think, okay, this is an urban fantasy romance series. It's just me doing it in a very character driven, very, you're going to learn a lot about magic on this journey way.

Sara:

So you mentioned that as part of a series, how many books are you planning for the series?

Saint:

We have four books slated, four books sold in the Summoner Circle series.

Lilly:

So we have just dipped our toes in

Sara:

Yes.

Lilly:

to this world and only barely met these characters.

Saint:

truly, truly.

Lilly:

Alright, well before we move on to our spoiler conversation, I actually have a question for Sarah. Who should read this book?

Sara:

You should read this book if you want a lush, character driven occult story with a healthy dose of interpersonal politics. Thanks.

Lilly:

As part of our round of Patreon shoutouts, I would like to thank Dave for being one of our supporters. If you're a patron, like Dave, you can get access to a bunch of bonus content, our most recent one being an exclusive episode about Dune Part 2, that is the movie. We did not read the book for this. If you head over to our Patreon and support us at the 5 level, you can unlock that and a bunch of other exclusive episodes, bonus content, cut clips, Patron polls, all sorts of fun stuff. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. So this story is really centered around our, I would say our three main characters, our triad, if you will. Reese, David, and Moira.

Saint:

Yeah,

Lilly:

I really loved seeing Reese have two very different, but very close relationships and sort of how they changed and evolved over the course of the novel. What was it like writing a romance story with characters who have such established histories? You know, this wasn't a, we met at a bar and there was sparks.

Saint:

that is a great question. That was actually the hardest part. I've been cooking this book for a while and there's been challenges with all the usual things you would expect, you know, the plot holes and the pacing and trying to stick the landing of the character arcs and stuff. And I've done polyamorous romances or complex like found family romantic relationships before, but the challenge with evocation is that is, you know, Reese and Moira have been married for a couple years by the time we meet them. And Reese has known David a while and they've already dated and broken up in the past. So they have all this history. And even Moira and David have known each other for a while because they're both practicing spiritual service providers in the same city. And they refer clients to each other and they see each other at like parties and functions. And that was actually really hard. I was like, Oh, you're not playing on easy mode. Because the traditional structure of a romance story, you have that meet cute where you can hang your hat. That's that first meeting where, you know, there are some sparks. It could be insta love. It could be insta hate. It could be something in the middle. There's tension and it shows you a little bit about the characters and how they're gonna learn about each other and grow. But I was kind of reverse engineering this. And thinking, how can I get us right in media res, and not repeat myself too much, and not flash back and go back in time too much, but still give you a clear understanding of who these people are, what they desire, what their character flaws are, and where the gaps in those relationships are that kind of close and become more intimate, I suppose, as the book goes on. So yeah, it was a challenge. I hope I did it well. And I'm so still learning as I go on because most of the characters in the Summoner Circle series period have known each other for a while. We will meet some new people who are new blood that shake things up and that's been really fun to write. But yeah, it was a little bit different. And I think it's not something you see in romance too terribly often.

Sara:

I think one of the things that I really appreciated about the relationships between all three of the characters, really, is that even though they have a lot of conflict and communication issues, it's not miscommunication that drives the conflict. Which is one of the things that I find most frustrating in, or can find most frustrating in novels because I'm like, just talk to each other. Whereas here, they are talking to each other. They are communicating. It's just, they want different things.

Saint:

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I was also something I really had at the forefront of my mind when I was writing this and I think Anyone who's been in a long term relationship, anyone who's had a relationship that has changed what the shape of it is, whether that is opening up a marriage or breaking up with someone and trying to remain friends or returning and trying to do a second chance romance with someone, sometimes the more you know someone and the more you talk, the more Maybe not even necessarily conflict, but just spaces for growth arise. And that's also where the friction of there's this ultimate desire for unification and for oneness and for intimacy that is always at tension with the human desire for individuation and for a clear sense of individual identity. And I think it just gets more complex, the more people you add and the more layers you add to the relationship. Did that answer your question?

Sara:

Yes, absolutely.

Saint:

Cool, cool, cool,

Sara:

It was more of a statement than a proper question. So thank you for running with it.

Saint:

I think it's sometimes. It's at least for me, more interesting to get kind of deep into the weeds of things. And especially when you're writing a white shoes or a polyamorous book, if you talk to any polyamorous person, like a running joke is that most of it is Google calendar scheduling and talking, like it is a lot of communication and something from a writing perspective that was a little bit challenging, but ultimately very rewarding with writing evocation is I found myself writing kind of the same conversation multiple times in different ways. Some of those repetitions would get cut out. But some of them were important to stay, because like, having the conversation about how are you feeling about this right now, how has this changed, what do you want in this moment, how are you going to change your behavior in this moment, you have to have those touch points and check ins, and it is a fluid, dynamic, kind of, you know, beast, and it was cool to do. Try to get into that as much as possible and not shy away from the complexity of it while still hopefully creating a story that is ultimately a fun romp that has a, you know, a glowy, happy ending where the curtain comes down and everyone is having a good time.

Lilly:

So, in the book, we actually see the character Moira do some research into consensual non monogamy. And she encourages Rhys to do the same. So, she actually recommends a book to Rhys, the, uh, what was it, Polysecure,

Saint:

It's a real book. It's a good book.

Lilly:

Were there other polyamory books that made it into your research queue for this novel? Or was it all a cult?

Saint:

No, there was a lot of, I listened to a lot of podcasts. I talked to a lot of people, listened to a lot of personal stories, but as far as kind of like a how to guide to having the conversation with anyone that you might be dating or hoping to date, Polysecure is really good because it's It approaches this concept of ethical non monogamy or polyamory from a family systems theory approach. Or no, it's not family systems, I apologize, it's been a long day. It's attachment theory, uh, which I didn't know a ton about before I read the book, and I really enjoyed that, and it was actually my, my editor's suggestion. She was like, you have to show these people, like, Doing a little bit of heavy lifting. And I was like, okay, I know how I'm going to do this. And I like that moment too, because it's kind of Moira giving Reese an olive branch and saying, hey, I'm looking into this. I'm doing the work, but she's also not letting him off the hook. She's like, you also need to do the work. Like your Catholic guilt is not going to just power us through this. We need to see how other people might've made this work. So yeah, I'll shoot you a rec if I can think of any more, but that was a good one that I read while I was writing the vocation that stuck with me. And that's the one that made it into the book.

Lilly:

I loved Moira's just like, Hey, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it right.

Saint:

Oh, yeah.

Sara:

It seemed like such a thoughtful, healthy way to approach it.

Saint:

Yeah, definitely. There's a cute, this is actually a book two thing. So, you know, if this is, does not end up in book two, don't hold me to it, but there is a cute little line in book two where David like admits that he's been listening to like podcasts about this to figure it out. Which is like not a very David thing to do because he likes to pretend that he has it all on the first try and does it very effortlessly. But I did want to show people not totally just homebrewing and DIYing it, although that's a lot of it, but going the extra mile and being like, maybe I should talk to someone.

Sara:

Speaking of David, one of the things that really struck me about his character was your treatment of his alcoholism and recovery, because I feel like that's not something I normally see in fantasy books at all, really. It's oftentimes maybe a little glorified, even, being an alcoholic.

Saint:

No, I appreciate that. That was something that was really important to me to portray and to handle with care, but also to just show kind of how messy and complex and nonlinear recovery is. I think if you are not someone who has been in recovery, or if you're not someone who has been close to someone who's been in recovery, Kind of the prevailing narrative in media is it gets worse and worse and worse, you have a rock bottom, you see the light, you cry it out, you go to AA, you quote unquote get better, and you never use again. And that's not everyone's story. But I also think it humanizes David a little bit more and I, I wanted to show that and I'm someone who's kind of had healthier or unhealthier relationships to alcohol at different points in my life. So just as the author, it was really cool to kind of work with a character for such a long time as I was also working through things in my own life and then return to the book and be like, Oh, I was kind of working through something here when I wrote this chapter and I love it. And. I think it is important for the character to take responsibility for that part of his life and build his own support system and have his own little rituals and regimens in place to just keep him healthy while also not being ashamed of it and Being able to talk about it with people and having the people in his life be like, yeah, we know we can drink around David in certain situations because we've had these conversations, but also like, don't be an asshole. Why would you offer him a drink? Like, I enjoyed kind of building a world where there was a sense of community support for him.

Lilly:

Is there a pun in there somewhere about wrestling personal demons?

Saint:

Oh, always. another podcast. And I use that pun. So thank you for bringing that in.

Lilly:

Were there any moments or scenes that surprised you when you were writing them?

Saint:

Oh, such a good question. Of course the whole book has fallen out of my head. Let me think. I, this is a spoilery section, right?

Lilly:

Yes. Let her rip.

Saint:

There were a lot of things that were pretty clear in my head from the beginning, especially like the big what I call like set piece scenes. So, you know, like some society scenes have always been there. Moira in the kitchen doing David's star chart has always been there. David's big moment at the gala. But there were some conversations between Reese and Moira that really surprised me. I think in revisions I got even deeper kind of into their marriage and into their relationship and seeing how they interact with each other and building in some more conversations around things like boundaries and consent and also, you know, Oh, I, I remember I'll give you one clear one that I love very much. It was one of the last chapters I wrote and I love it. It's my favorite chapters in the book. I was doing revisions and I was reading through it fifth or sixth revision. And I was like, I just want David and Moira to have one more like chapter together, just themselves that really cements like their dynamic, like their thing. And there's this super fun chapter that I love where they. go and sit on the steps of the Boston Public Library and are like trying to spot ghosts together and they're kind of doing this playful banter and it's in Moira's POV and that's her moment of realizing like oh I actually really I think I like him like a lot like I think this is like a really good thing for me and that's also her moment as a character where she is like stepping into her power more. owning some of her own supernatural abilities more and allowing herself to be hungry and ambitious in a way that maybe she wouldn't have at the beginning of the book. So I love that scene and it totally surprised me. I just kind of was like, maybe I'll put them in a situation and see what happens. And then it was a good scene and it made it into the book.

Sara:

So you said that you have been kind of percolating on this story for seven years. How different is the final product from the first draft?

Saint:

Quite, I would say probably 50 percent of it is completely net new, different from the first draft. The original draft was a murder mystery. I don't write murder mysteries. I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to solve a mystery. Like, I don't know what I was thinking. I think, oh, my head was at was like, okay, urban fantasy. There needs to be some crime element. There needs to be some investigation element. And I just went to murder mystery and that didn't work out. really work out at all. And actually when I signed with my agent, Tara, who is wonderful, we still work together. They gave me my edits back and they were like, listen, you're very talented. However, do we really need to have the murder in this? And I was like, no, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. So I restructured a lot of the plot around the curse and the external plot and what. Drove the narrative forward, but the things that remain the same were the development of this triad relationship or rather this V relationship and the character dynamics and David's character journey has been pretty much beat for beat the same since the beginning, just with some added scenes to give it more depth. As always, it's the plot that gets me. It's always that. It's always that.

Lilly:

How much do you plan when you write?

Saint:

I've become more of a planner with time. I used to be, like, much more of a pantser. My little system now is that when I get an idea for a story, I start by sketching out the first, like, three chapters, which, like, always come to me super easily and almost never change. I feel like I'm quite strong with openings. It's endings that I can struggle with and I know that strength and weakness point. So the way I've tried to augment that is I try to figure out the first three chapters or so, the midpoint, what is the big explosive or the turning moment or the revelation at the midpoint, and then the ending. And then I'll usually have some, what I, again, set piece scenes, like these big operatic moments around that are kind of like a little music video in my head. And I'll have that, and I'll write basically a query letter. I'll write pitch copy for the book, because that helps me figure out what promises I'm making to the audience. And like, what do I want the book to feel like? What are the selling points of the book that I want to commit to? And then I'll refer back to that like pitch copy. When I start to wander and be like, no, no, this is like, this is the vision you had. So let's see if we can get it onto the page. And at this point, because I work with editors, I often around early development will also do a very rough synopsis that will inevitably change. But that are kind of the guide rails that I put up to help me write, which also leaves room for me to be exploratory and be a little bit more of like a headlights writer where, you know, what's happening in the next couple chapters. But once you finish writing those, it's through the writing that you discover what happens in the chapters after. So it's kind of like a blended process, but that's what works for me right now.

Lilly:

Well, you said there are currently four books planned for the series. Does that mean what's going to happen is as much a mystery to you as it is to us?

Saint:

I think as far as my work goes, I have more of a clear idea for the Summoner's Circle series than I do for maybe a standalone, because like a standalone, you know, it's really contained little explosion. It's in a little bubble and it has a clear beginning, middle, and end. But there is an added element with a series of wanting there to be a strong through thread that is thematically, emotionally, and plot wise satisfying for readers who stick with the whole series. But something about the Summoner's Struggle series that I think makes it really fun for me to write, that helps me to not lose interest, is that yes, you should read them in order. Yes, they're all talking to each other and they are building up to a resolution at the end that I know about. But it's very episodic. It feels a little bit like a soapy CW show. Like there's usually a monster of the week, magical problem in each book. There's a romance in each book and it helps me to have those goalposts to be like, This is the vibe of this book. We're going to tie it up, but there are some through threads that bring us into the next one. And so I kind of leapfrog it that way. You know, I'm developing other things that are much more of like that traditional mini series, trilogy experience of one long story, which is much more demanding. But I think the format that I've chosen for the Summoner's Circle series gives me the structure of a series that is all talking to each other, while still giving me the flexibility to Of something more episodic and that's been really really fun. I personally am really digging that format And it's one that i'm happy to commit to for the next couple years or so

Lilly:

I love that. Wait, does that mean are we not going to be following Reese, Moira, and David for all four books?

Saint:

You will so in some like episodic romances. It's a new couple every time I don't want to spoil too much But what I can promise is reese moira and david are the heart of the whole series the whole time They get lots of screen time. We always come back to them. But as the books go on, the web of characters widens and the relationship boundaries become more permeable. And the camera will focus on different people for different times. So there are some side characters that you may have met and evocation that you might like and be like, wow, I really hope we haven't seen the last of them. And you have not seen the last of them. I have plans and schemes, but Free State and Moira are not going anywhere. They're the heart of the series.

Sara:

I think I saw in one of the Angry Robot emails that there is a prequel novella. Is that one of the four or is that separate from the four?

Saint:

It's a bonus. I probably should have mentioned that. I'm sorry for anyone listening. This is very confusing. So no, there are four full length novels in the Summoner Circle series planned and bought that start with Evocation. However, Odd Spirits is a little novella. It's very short. It's like the first thing, it is the first thing I ever self published years and years ago, Baby's First Book. And that is where we meet Rhys David and Warrior for the first time. I wrote it and I published it. And I thought I was just sharing a fun little story with people who knew me from Tumblr. And I just got obsessed with the characters in the world. And I, I just live there now and here I am, but Angry Robot is doing a gorgeous resurrection of odd spirits in this beautiful hardcover. That I'm obsessed with, and I have this really cool opportunity that authors don't usually get to go back and revisit my work and do a kind of a same story, but an edited version, a revised version for the new edition. So we're tightening things up for continuity with the rest of the series. On a sentence level, I love to run on sentence back then. Character arc stuff and I have a truly phenomenal dev editor and sensitivity editor on board for this one Which I didn't have before it was just me in my bedroom and like two betas and I called it good and I published it Which I don't recommend But I'm actually doing the revision right now, and it's been a really fun time fun tender process to go back to the beginning and say what would I do differently? What would I do the same? And that will come out this fall. So you do not have to read Odd Spirits to enjoy Evocation or any of the other books in the series. But if you read Evocation and you're like, hmm, I wonder how Rhys and Moira met? Or like, what did David do to make Rhys so mad at him? Odd Spirits is there for you. It's very much like a It's a book about recent Moira's marriage. It was really their, their book. And then I wrote David in and I got obsessed with that little weirdo and now we have a whole series.

Lilly:

Well, is there anything you would like readers specifically to take away from reading Evocation?

Saint:

Oh, I think, and there is no shame in this, cringe is the mind killer and I don't believe in being anything but earnest with my life. It is really a power of love book, truly. It has a lot of fun soap opera drama, it has a lot of fun magic in it, it's a little bit sexy, it has some dark moments, all that kind of stuff, but Evocation and the whole Sevener Circle series is really my love letter to my deep seated belief that That love is limitless and transformative and redemptive and will take many forms in our life. And if we remain open to it can really be this purifying fire that makes us into the people that we want to be. And I think that is really what I hope people take away from it. Even though it's really, really sappy, but if you just have fun, that's fine too.

Sara:

No, I think that's wonderful.

Lilly:

Any plot where, like, people use the power of love and friendship or work together to accomplish something as, like, automatic button to make me cry. Like,

Saint:

I love it.

Lilly:

yeah.

Sara:

Saint, thank you so much for coming on to talk to us. Before we let you get back to your evening plans, can you tell us a little bit about where you can be found on the internet?

Saint:

Absolutely. The best place to find me on the internet is on Instagram at stgibsonauthor and my newsletter which is saint. substack. com. I update my newsletter probably once a month with behind the scenes stuff. stuff, news about cover reveals and new books, sales, and a little bit about what I've been up to and what I've been into that I don't necessarily put on social media. And if you're interested in that, I also have a paid newsletter or a paid version of the newsletter where I, uh, share essays on writing craft and publishing. Last month was a query tips and the month before that was how to write a good sex scene. So those are kind of where you can find me. And I am on Twitter. But sometimes I'm on it and sometimes I'm not on it for like a month at a time. But that is S underscore T underscore Gibson. That's pretty much where I am. I deleted TikTok. We don't live there anymore.

Lilly:

Fair enough. I feel like that's how everyone talks about Twitter now. They're like, I'm on it, but I don't.

Sara:

Yep. That's certainly how we talk about it.

Lilly:

Yeah.

Saint:

But the most reliable place to get updates from me so you don't miss anything is going to be Instagram and the newsletter.

Lilly:

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us this evening. It was great talking to you and can't wait for book number two.

Saint:

Yay, I need to revise it. So it's going to be great. I'm working on it right now. Thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful. And thank you everybody for listening as well.

Lilly:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara:

Come disagree with us. We're on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok, at FictionFansPod. You can also email us at FictionFansPod at gmail. com.

Lilly:

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Sara:

We also have a Patreon where you can support us and find exclusive episodes and a lot of other nonsense.

Lilly:

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Sara:

Bye!