Going Postal by Terry Pratchett

Your hosts read Going Postal by Terry Pratchett, and they ask: Is this the best place to start in Discworld? 1 out of 2 Fiction Fans hosts agree. They also talk about reformed conmen, the intricacies of golem gender, and are hesitantly cautious about the romantic interest’s future in the series.

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Thanks to the following musicians for the use of their songs:

- Amarià for the use of “Sérénade à Notre Dame de Paris”
- Josh Woodward for the use of “Electric Sunrise”

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License

Transcript

Lilly 0:04

Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and letters too. I'm Lily,

Sara 0:10

And I'm Sarah.

Lilly 0:11

and tonight we're going to be going on the most important step on our journey to the center of the Discworld. I said it, you can argue with me

Sara 0:20

I am going to argue with you just a little bit. It's a good book, but I don't know if I would call it the most important step.

Lilly 0:27

the only Discworld book anyone needs to read.

Sara 0:29

No, absolutely not.

Lilly 0:32

Well, before we get into Going Postal by Terry Pratchett, what's something great that happened recently?

Sara 0:38

Something great is that I flew to Seattle to visit my cousin.

Lilly 0:43

Hey yeah, that was wonderful.

Sara 0:44

Yes, it was a lot of fun hanging out with you and your husband and your cats, mostly your cats. Sorry, not sorry.

Lilly 0:52

Oh no, they're definitely the best part of this house, I agree.

Sara 0:56

But yeah, it was, that was really lovely. And we also went to a book talk and signing, and that was cool too. So all in all, it was a lovely couple of days.

Lilly 1:04

It was! And, a day or two before you got here was the big, like, geomagnetic storm, or whatever they called it. So I also saw the northern lights a little bit from my house.

Sara 1:16

I did not, but I'll allow you to use that as your good thing, and tack it onto my visit.

Lilly 1:22

I'm tacking it on. I'm counting it as part of the greater whole. It was a good weekend.

Sara 1:26

It was a good weekend.

Lilly 1:28

What are you drinking tonight?

Sara 1:29

I'm drinking cider.

Lilly 1:30

Lovely. I'm drinking boxed wine, but it's fancy boxed wine.

Sara 1:34

Oooh.

Lilly 1:35

black box brand, which comes in the smaller box instead of the like, ginormous box. I

Sara 1:44

Does it taste any better than your normal box wine?

Lilly 1:48

think so, although only marginally. I'm really not a wine connoisseur.

Sara 1:53

Yeah, I mean, that's fair. Neither am I.

Lilly 1:57

But we stepped it up. We had guests. Not you, other guests. Guests I buy fancy wine for, by which I mean a smaller box.

Sara 2:07

I'm hurt you don't buy the fancy wine for me, after having just admitted that it doesn't really make a difference to me.

Lilly 2:15

You knew this already. This wasn't news.

Sara 2:17

I did know this already, it's true.

Lilly 2:19

Have you read anything good lately?

Sara 2:21

Yes, so I actually just finished Baying the Moon by Jennifer Donahue, which is the sequel to her werewolf book Learn to Howl. Baying the Moon comes out sometime in July, I believe. And I really enjoyed it. I was not paying attention to where I was in the PDF, and so I got to the last page and I kept trying to scroll because I was like, no, I need more!

Lilly 2:51

Oh no!

Sara 2:53

So I'm eagerly awaiting book three.

Lilly 2:55

I mean, that's a great place to be with a book when you're like, no, wait, keep going.

Sara 3:00

Yeah. It really is. And I love her take on werewolves, so that was fun.

Lilly 3:06

I have not read any of her work in that universe yet, but I think we have it on this calendar, maybe? Maybe

Sara 3:12

We do.

Lilly 3:13

Okay, good. I was banking on that being the answer.

Sara 3:16

we have learned Howl on the calendar, yes.

Lilly 3:19

I read Gods of Dust by Brian Glosemeyer, which I'm cheating a little bit because it's kind of podcast reading, which we normally say does not count for this question. But it's a supplementary short story that is in the same universe as Beyond the Gates Infernal and Before the Shattered Gates of Heaven. The Shattered Gates universe, I think, is the less of a mouthful way to say it. And we just read the second one of those for the podcast, had him on, had a great interview. But I did not read this short story in time for that conversation. So, I'm very glad that I had the chance to. It's really quite short. It's free. You just have to sign up for his newsletter to get it. And I didn't even have to do that, because he sent it to us for the podcast. I think we are signed up for his newsletter, though. But that, that's it. was last week, or whatever time period works for podcast episode releases. I think that was last week, even for our listeners.

Sara 4:17

I believe that was last week.

Lilly 4:19

Okay, not that that matters too much. But anyway, we are talking about Going Postal, my absolute favorite Discworld novel. It remains there. It is, oh,

Sara 4:30

I would say it's definitely in my top five. I like it a lot. It's not my absolute favorite.

Lilly 4:35

it is mine. I know I just said that.

Sara 4:40

That's fine, we're allowed to have different favorites.

Lilly 4:42

That, yes. But I think part of it also is that I know we've kind of waffled a little bit on which book you should start with in Discworld. But I'm gonna go on record and say, if you don't want any equivocations, no qualifications, no, well, if you're into this, if you just want a book to start, read Going Postal.

Sara 5:03

Hmm.

Lilly 5:04

me out, I can see you thinking.

Sara 5:06

I'm not sure I agree with you there, but I'll listen to your argument for that.

Lilly 5:11

It is far enough into the Discworld series that Pratchett has figured out his world, his characters, his vibes. You don't get any of the rocky start that some of the early books were. It is firmly in Ankh Morpork. Ankh Morpork. Like, it takes place on the Discworld. It's not like, Oh, well, you don't need any background knowledge, because it takes place, like, in this random location that we've never heard about before and never do again. Like, it's absolutely Ankh Morpork. However, You don't need any prior knowledge about anything. A couple of characters have a couple of cameos. Like, yeah, we know who Lord Vetinari is because we've read the earlier Discworld novels, but there is not a single thing in this book that you need to know that is not explained to you perfectly in this book.

Sara 5:56

So I don't disagree with all of that, per se. It's true, it takes place in Ankh Morpork, basically everything that you need to know is explained in the book, you don't need prior knowledge. But I will disagree a little bit with the statement that because it takes place in Ankh Morpork, it is a better start to Discworld than, say, Monstrous Regiment.

Lilly 6:20

I, okay, I think it depends on, are you asking for a entry point into Discworld, or are you asking for one Discworld book to read? I think those are two different questions.

Sara 6:32

I agree, but I think that both of these books, like, answer both of those questions.

Lilly 6:37

Okay, I love Monstrous Regiment, so if someone said, but could I start with that one? I wouldn't argue. However, I do think the fact that this takes place in Ankh Morpork, which is the capital city of Discworld, I know that's not like, actually what it is. But that's what it is.

Sara 6:52

That's basically, basically what it is.

Lilly 6:55

I do think that is a better framing for someone considering coming into the series because that gives you a better idea of what more of the books are like. Not are like, but like, it's a better introduction to the world because it actually introduces you to the world where more of the books take place in.

Sara 7:13

Again, I don't entirely disagree. I actually think that the better argument for Going Postal as the entry point versus Monstrous Regiment is that Going Postal is the start of its own miniseries, and so you have an easier time following it up than with Monstrous Regiment, where you have to, like, choose something new afterwards.

Lilly 7:36

That's true. I mean, if someone wanted to start somewhere else. It's not the only one that you could start with, but I think, gun to my head, what is the one book I would recommend, if I couldn't quibble, it would be Going Postal.

Sara 7:48

I'm still not sure that if I was, you know, gunned ahead, it would be the book that I chose. But it is, it is an excellent starting point.

Lilly 7:56

Alright, well, here's the other problem with the argument you made, even though you agreed with me. I disagree with the argument, because the fact that Going Postal, the book about, not the invention of the postal system in Ankh Morpork, but the Revitalization of a long defunct postal system to directly compete with the CLACs, or, they're basically telegrams, right?

Sara 8:20

Yeah.

Lilly 8:21

They're basically telegrams, but they definitely use, like, computer coding coded language around it.

Sara 8:27

Which is very fun to read as a software engineer, I have to say.

Lilly 8:31

Yeah, was this your first reread since you changed careers?

Sara 8:35

Not really. So I read Going Postal maybe two years ago? Oh. When I was very early on in my software engineer career. So I did get a little bit of that before, but like, I think it hits a little harder when you have more experience.

Lilly 8:57

So, hilariously, this is the first reread I've done since college. And I have since gone into advertising, where I think Moist von Liffwig would do an amazing job in that industry. So much of this book is about the PR battle between Moist von Liffwig, the head of the postal service, And I'll call Reacher Gilt the head of the Klax. Not exactly, but basically.

Sara 9:23

Yeah. I mean, he's the chairman of the board of the Grand Trunk, which is the Klax company.

Lilly 9:29

But yeah, they have their, like, PR battles, leaking articles to the newspaper. They have, like, different ways of spinning their merchandise. Like, so much. Oh man, so much of this. I was like, ugh. Moist von Lipwig. Heh heh heh heh heh. I adore him as a main character. He's complicated. We are going to talk about him much more in the spoilers section, but I had to get that in there too. He's great. But where I was really going with this, I don't like calling this the beginning of a mini series because I know According to Wikipedia it is listed as the first book in the Moist von Lipwig series,

Sara 10:08

Which is not wrong.

Lilly 10:09

but that, I hate it the books that are listed as the quote unquote industrial revolution series are, I mean, fine, they can live there, but they are not more of a story about Industrial Revolution than Going Postal and Making Money are.

Sara 10:28

So, I do think that the way those two miniseries are defined is a little funky.

Lilly 10:36

And also, there's only two Moist von Lipwig books, right?

Sara 10:39

Um, are there only two? I thought we had three.

Lilly 10:44

Oh.

Sara 10:45

Yeah, we do have three, because there's Raising Steam.

Lilly 10:48

Okay, if there's three books in his miniseries, then I will concede. But having a whole definition for only two was silly. Could we call Moist von Lipwig a miniseries within the Industrial Revolution miniseries?

Sara 11:02

Maybe.

Lilly 11:03

Just like between you and I.

Sara 11:04

The, the thing about that, and the reason why I think that the Moist von Lipwig books are their own mini series is because there's a lot of time in between the quote unquote Industrial Revolution books and the first Moist von Lipwig book. Like, at least it just feels like they're more separated in time, like, in Discworld. Although I don't actually think that Monstrous Regiment should be in the Industrial Revolution.

Lilly 11:32

No, that makes me so upset.

Sara 11:35

I think, I think that is just flat out, like, misqualified.

Lilly 11:38

Now, it is about a different country sort of having a cultural revolution, but that's not the same thing at all.

Sara 11:46

Sure, but yeah, that's not the same thing.

Lilly 11:49

And the list that you found has unseen academicals in it, which is later than Moist Von

Sara 11:55

That's true. That is true.

Lilly 11:57

So anyway, I

Sara 11:58

I don't know. I just think that that category is itself very wonky. And so I support the Moist von Litwig books being their own separate category. Because I don't think that all of those make sense together.

Lilly 12:11

No. Now, okay, moving pictures, a little borderline, but sure. The truth, you know, about the invention of the newspaper in the printing press, yes, totally. I'm just distracted by the fact that there's a third one I haven't read Raising Steam yet, and I'm very excited. These are by far my favorite Discworld novels. And part of it is I just think how much I love how shitty and manipulative Moist Fawn Lipfig is.

Sara 12:36

I agree. It's great. He is 26, and reading this does hit different now that I am past 26. Long past 26.

Lilly 12:46

That is very funny. There are also some jokes, although I think they were like, much more explicitly jokes, about the Klax engineers and how like, the old grandad

Sara 12:58

Well,

Lilly 12:59

been there longer than anybody else is 25 or something.

Sara 13:02

yeah, I mean, and that's, I think, making fun of the fact that so many, like, senior engineers, particularly in the, when was this published, in like the early 2000s, or 2010s, I mean. 2004.

Lilly 13:17

Yeah, I think that's a very apt joke.

Sara 13:19

Yeah, like, like it, it's very spot on. So I think that's intended to be a joke, whereas Moist being 26 is not necessarily. That's just having a young character or younger character.

Lilly 13:34

Yeah. And he sort of picked up in the middle of his con man days, so it's not like he was trying to retire or something.

Sara 13:41

Right. Yeah,

Lilly 13:46

did recognize more in this book than the last time I read it. And some of the ways in which the KLAX and that system pull on ideas, like the overhead, I think they called it? And that was where a lot of the sort of, not secret messages, but in jokes between the different KLAX operators were passing around.

Sara 14:07

there's, there's also, I mean, this is a very obvious one, but, oh, that's a spoiler. I don't want to say that.

Lilly 14:15

You caught yourself in time.

Sara 14:17

I did. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say it without context so that it's not a spoiler. People who illegally get into the Klax are called crackers because they are cracking the code.

Lilly 14:30

Incredible. Well, it couldn't be strippers, because that was already taken. And one of the ways that they use that sort of overhead is to memorialize the people who died while working on the Klax. Because the company that's taken over the Klax before the beginning of this book, Or right at the prologue, basically, is, you know, horrible, puts profits before people and safety, and are running their employees into the ground.

Sara 14:59

Yeah, so people, or the people who work the clacks, will pass messages back and forth with the header GNU. And I forget what exactly that means. Let me look it up.

Lilly 15:11

It's a type of cow.

Sara 15:13

but that's

Lilly 15:13

a joke they make in the book.

Sara 15:16

That's not what it means. So the G means the message must be passed on, N means not logged, and U means the message should be turned around at the end of the line. Apparently GNU is also a free operating system, and the name stands for GNU's not Unix, which is great. But there's a quote in the book about how a man is not dead while his name is still spoken, and so I think it's really Sad, but also beautiful, the way that fans have, like, appropriated that phrasing for remembering Pratchett. Like on social media, like, you'll see posts tagged with GNU Terry Pratchett.

Lilly 15:55

It is. It's really beautiful. I think there's a lot of things that the fandom Well, Pratchett has created a world that has these really poignant, heartfelt moments ripe for the appropriation.

Sara 16:09

Yeah,

Lilly 16:09

Like, fans wouldn't be able to pluck these really thoughtful and sweet things out of a series that didn't include them to begin with.

Sara 16:16

that's very true, and I think it speaks to Pratchett's ability to write fantasy in a way that is relevant to modern readers without feeling fantasy.

Lilly 16:27

Yeah. I mean, one of Moist's lines, not exactly in this context, but I'm stealing it, is that at the end of the day, it's about people. And Moist is using that to explain in his internal narrative why he's so good at getting the things he wants to happen done, because he's good at reading people and dealing with people. But I am going to pluck that out of context and throw it over here. Because that is why these books are so Affecting. I mean, yes, it's a fun story about the male, like, there's no way you can spin that! Ha ha ha ha

Sara 17:03

that it's Pratchett, so of course you can.

Lilly 17:05

Yeah, and so he's writing about an absurd place with absurd people who are still very real and going through experiences that are very recognizable.

Sara 17:14

Yeah, I mean it, it's using fantasy to tell a relevant story.

Lilly 17:18

Yes, 100%. And the, ugh, the company that has the clacks. You just said the name. The Grand Trunk? That's the name of the company? I thought that was the name of the main tower. Is it both?

Sara 17:29

I don't know if it's the name of the main tower, but it is, I'm pretty sure it's, it is the name of the company.

Lilly 17:36

Oh no, the main tower is named Tumf Tower.

Sara 17:39

Yes.

Lilly 17:42

Oh, which is, changes vibes a little bit. 20 years later or whatever.

Sara 17:47

We'll talk a little bit more about that in the spoiler section.

Lilly 17:51

Okay, okay, the other thing that this book does is it introduces golems. Well, we might have actually met one before.

Sara 17:58

It doesn't introduce golems at all, we totally met them before.

Lilly 18:02

Okay, this book deals so much more deeply with golems than they have in the past.

Sara 18:07

still disagree with that because Feet of Clay came out in 1996 and that is all about golems.

Lilly 18:13

Fine, fine. We've met golems, they've been established. I feel like this book explores a lot of questions that were raised by feet of clay. How's that?

Sara 18:22

I think this book features golems in, like, how do I want to phrase this? Feet of Clay was about golems, but it didn't have very many main golem characters, if that makes sense.

Lilly 18:39

This book really treats them like people in a way that that book didn't.

Sara 18:43

Yeah, like we see golems as characters in this book, and Feet of Clay they were kind of the plot.

Lilly 18:51

That I will accept. Ugh, just everything about them is so fascinating. I might be writing a book that heavily features golems, so I might be more extra interested in it than the average reader, but we can ignore that and move on. Pratchett introduces the two genders, which are more clay or less clay.

Sara 19:14

I think one of the things that I like about the golems is the way that their interactions with the other characters tell you so much about the other characters and how they respect bodily autonomy. Because golems don't really have any gender, right? Like, they don't care about gender. It's just a thing. They have more clay or less clay, like you say.

Lilly 19:35

And I think that was even a joke in the book, right? I think it's implied that that's not actually a situation happening. But anyway,

Sara 19:41

But people assign them pronouns basically arbitrarily. And the people who respect them use their pronouns, and the people who don't call them it.

Lilly 19:51

yeah. There's also a part, though, where Miss Deerheart, who, she's sort of the head of the, like, Golem Rights Coalition. There's a organization that exists to purchase golems for themselves so that they can, like, set themselves free, basically. And she's sort of the human figurehead of that, because I believe it's mostly funded by the golems themselves.

Sara 20:13

It is entirely funded by the golems, yeah. They're working to buy themselves back.

Lilly 20:17

Yes, and to buy other golems back for themselves. I thought was implied a little bit.

Sara 20:22

Well, I, I meant, when I said buy themselves back, I meant buy golems back. They are already free golems.

Lilly 20:28

Mr. Pump is not trying to buy Mr. Pump. Mr. Pump is trying to buy his, yes, or whatever. So she is sort of the, the human face of this organization, and she gives Moist a little bit of shit, because he is very smug and is like, I call my golem Mr. Pump, and instead of Pump 19, and she says, why? His name is Pump 19. You're assigning your own baggage to this person without, like, asking if that's something he cares about. And I thought that was a very interesting conversation. Obviously, humans have baggage around gender, but sort of giving that baggage to people. Yes, it's important to respect them, but also you're telling them that that's something they should care about in the first place. It was, it was a very throwaway line, but I liked it.

Sara 21:15

True. But I do think it's, the conversation there is about like, talking to the golem and seeing what the golem prefers, whereas the other people are just assuming that because they're animated play, they are things, not beings with their own thoughts and feelings. Yes. Yes.

Lilly 21:41

that he wants to do the right thing, and Adora was saying, great, but think about that one step farther. Right, like, good job, but do better, instead of just, this is what I think is nice, and so I'm just gonna do it. But there's also a lot of conversation around, I mean, free will, basically, right? Do they enjoy work? They're compelled to work, they seem to want to work, but what does that really mean to a creature who has been told what they want? Very specifically, like, written out instructions in their heads, told what they want.

Sara 22:18

I mean, it's, that's very explicit.

Lilly 22:20

Yeah. And this book doesn't really claim to answer that question, but it does interact with it quite a bit. And there's one scene, one of the golems does die, which was sort of thought to be something that wasn't possible. And I'm going to say that that's not a spoiler, because I'm not going to tell you who. And it happens pretty early in the book, I think.

Sara 22:37

I don't think it happens that early. I'd say more like the midway point.

Lilly 22:41

Midway point? Okay, the ebook I have doesn't have, like, an overall percentage. It just gives me the percentage within the chapter,

Sara 22:49

Oh no! Oh! Oh, that's terrible!

Lilly 22:54

It's the worst.

Sara 22:55

That's terrible!

Lilly 22:57

I am sorry. I'm sure I've named this app before, but it's not the usual one, and there's a reason. Maybe that's a setting I can change. I haven't actually looked. Yeah, it's silly.

Sara 23:12

I'm sorry.

Lilly 23:13

Okay, but this golem dies. And has a scene with Death, the character, it's Death's cameo for this book, if you will. And Death is explaining to him, you know, like, it's the afterlife, you choose where you go, you don't have to work anymore. And this poor sweet Golem,

Sara 23:29

He basically just, like, he sits down in the desert and says, Okay, I'm not gonna do anything because I've never had that opportunity. More or less.

Lilly 23:38

he says he's not going to choose an afterlife to go to, he's just gonna sit here and do nothing because it's his first chance to do that.

Sara 23:45

Yeah.

Lilly 23:46

Okay, well I can't find the whole quote because I'm incapable of navigating this app. But the highlighted portion that it will show me is, Yes, I know, said the Ghost of the Golem, it is perfect, I am free. And that really adds an extra heartbreaking layer to all of the conversations around, well, they want to work, give them something to do, otherwise they're bored. Because that happens early enough that there's still quite a few conversations. Even Adora says things to that effect. And it's like, ooh,

Sara 24:17

Do they really, though?

Lilly 24:18

yeah. Yeah, I just really like this book. I did realize that I had sort of conflated Making Money, which is the next book in this, in the Moist Von Lipwig series, with Going Postal, and like I had kind of smashed the two of them together in my head. But it is a fully separate book. The scene that I'm, had in my head is the next one. Which, it's also very Golem centric, I would say. And when are we reading that? And can I skip forward in time?

Sara 24:47

I mean, it's gonna be this year.

Lilly 24:48

Oh, it's soon. August. That's soon.

Sara 24:51

The episode should be coming out in August on Making Money.

Lilly 24:54

I only have a couple months to wait till I get to read it. I know I could read it earlier, but we both know that's not going to happen.

Sara 25:01

It's not gonna happen. Before we move on, I do have to say that there is a cat in this book named Mr. Tiddles, who does not die, and this is my official announcement that when I get another pug, which is not going to happen anytime soon, I am going to name it Mr. Tiddles.

Lilly 25:20

And she and Mr. Squeak can just be misgendered forever together. Because you, you decide on the title before you find your pug.

Sara 25:28

Yes.

Lilly 25:29

I think that's a great name.

Sara 25:30

It's an excellent name. It's terrible, but it's excellent.

Lilly 25:33

Oh yeah, that's, why would you have a pet if you can't name them something stupid?

Sara 25:38

Exactly.

Lilly 25:39

I will say, it does feel like an elderly pet

Sara 25:42

It does, but I'm probably going to adopt an elderly pug, so it works out.

Lilly 25:48

It does. Thank you to our patrons for helping us keep the lights on, and a special thanks to Kathy, who is our featured patron this week. If you subscribe at the 1 level, you can vote in a poll to decide one of our upcoming books. And if you subscribe at the 10 level, you're invited to a live recording of our next exclusive episode, Dune II, featuring C. M. Kaplan. Without further ado, let's get started. The remainder of this episode contains spoilers. Well, we've talked quite a bit across our Journey to the Center of the Discworld series about Lord Vetinari, the patrician of Ankh

Sara 26:36

How excellent he is and how much I love him.

Lilly 26:38

Yes. And, oh my god, do I love him so much in this book. He and Moist are such, like, great They're not foils. They're playing the same game. In a way that I don't think Vetinari gets very often.

Sara 26:53

I do think that they're both playing very similar games. Vetinari is, I think, very concerned about the running of things, and Moist is very concerned about conning people.

Lilly 27:05

Oh, okay.

Sara 27:06

that's a little different.

Lilly 27:08

So when I say they're playing the same game, I mean they're pulling the same levers.

Sara 27:13

Oh, yes.

Lilly 27:15

I like Vetnari. He is also a manipulative person.

Sara 27:18

He's very manipulative. I mean, Vetinari, I think, is way more tactical than Moist. Like, Moist gets by on a lot of charm and a lot of luck. Not to say that he doesn't, like, make some of that luck happen, because he does, but I think Vetinari, he always has a plan, and Moist wings it a lot.

Lilly 27:39

Okay, sure. But in the sense that a lot of his plan is around reading people and figuring out what buttons to press to get people to do what he wants, they both do that quite a bit. They have very different goals. Moist's, for a long time, was to be a con man and then was to survive. I think I saw a lot of similarities in the characters of Moist Von Lipwig and Sam Vimes. In that, with Vetinari specifically, in that, Vetinari is often, like, playing an information game. How much do I reveal that I know to this person to get them to do what I want? How do I find out what they know versus what I, like, that kind of back and forth? And we see him spar with Vimes, in a way, right? Because Vimes, as the head of the Watch, Captain, Captain, Lieutenant? Heh heh heh.

Sara 28:32

I mean, sir, I think.

Lilly 28:36

We've established I don't understand military ranks. I'm going to say boss man of the watch. He is often with Vettinari playing the, Well, I couldn't possibly know what you're talking about, sir. Which we see Moist von Lipwig do in this book as well. And I guess they have both been, like, sort of forced into civil servant roles. Civil servant leadership roles, in a

Sara 28:58

Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with you. I think Vimes has a much more antagonistic perspective, like, I think Vimes respects Vetinari, but he also just kind of tolerates him, and he's very much trying to be a check on Vetinari, and Moist is very much working for Vetinari in a way that even though Vimes technically does, he doesn't really. Okay.

Lilly 29:24

Which is really funny, because which one of them is, like, under threat of death? I just think it's such an interesting triad of characters to look at in that way.

Sara 29:36

Well, I mean, like, it makes sense that Moist is much more cooperative because he is under threat of death.

Lilly 29:42

Well, yeah. But I also think he admires Fetunari because he can see, I think Vimes does too, but in more of a grudging way. Whereas I think Moist is like, Ah, hell, you're great at this.

Sara 29:55

I don't know if Moist I mean, he might feel that way a little bit about Vetinari. I think he definitely feels that way about Reacher Gilt.

Lilly 30:02

Yes, that was, I, I really enjoyed that too.

Sara 30:05

That is very much a, I recognize what you're doing, and I don't want to be like you, I'm worried I could become like you, but I respect the hell out of the skill you have in what you're doing.

Lilly 30:19

Yes, Reacher Gilt was such an incredible villain for this story in particular.

Sara 30:27

Well, it makes for a really interesting juxtaposition between Moist and Guilt, because there's such a fine line between them. Like, the line is basically Moist has decided that he doesn't want to be like Guilt.

Lilly 30:39

And I think that's where Vettinari comes in, because he's now seeing someone who is using these manipulative powers to get civil service done instead of for his own personal gain.

Sara 30:51

I don't know. I'm not sure

Lilly 30:53

I don't think the book draws as direct of a line as I am, but it was something that struck me on this reread.

Sara 30:59

Yeah. I'm not sure I really get that sense from either Moist or the book. I can see where you're coming from. I don't think it's particularly present.

Lilly 31:09

I don't think that's what the text is doing.

Sara 31:11

Yeah.

Lilly 31:12

I think it's something that I picked up on, just like, it struck me differently. There's a lot of conversation. I mean, because Moise van Limpvig was a con man who was sentenced to hang, put to death, veterinary rigged it so he would survive, and then said, now you have to run the post office, which is just like absolutely in shambles. It has not delivered a letter in 50

Sara 31:34

He said you can choose, you can leave through this door, or you can run the post office, and Moist deduces that leaving through the door will mean the end of his life, and so he chooses to run the post office.

Lilly 31:45

Yes. I think we're getting back into the conversation around the concept of choice,

Sara 31:51

Yes.

Lilly 31:51

do you really have a choice?

Sara 31:54

Yes, I mean, well, Vetinari is all about the perception of choice, even if not the reality of choice. He even has a couple of quotes about it too, if I can find them. I'm not sure if I can, I don't know if I highlighted them. But again, to contrast with Richard Gilt, like, moist, thinks about it. He's like, this is what Vetinari is saying he's offering, and this is what I think Vetinari is offering. And so he decides to take the job running the post office, and Gilt doesn't make that same choice, and he does not run the bank in the next book, Making Money.

Lilly 32:33

It gets me every time. There's a split second where I get to the last page of this book and I'm like, No, Moist Von Lipvick is the main character in Making Money. Did I forget everything?

Sara 32:47

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that in A Life With Footnotes, I believe that he says that we almost didn't get that epilogue.

Lilly 32:56

That sounds familiar. But it's so important because, Okay, I'm making up the parallels between, Or I'm not making them up, I'm adding the parallels between Vetinari and Moist. But the comparison between Moist and Guilt are very much, like, on purpose.

Sara 33:13

Explicit, yes.

Lilly 33:14

And so having that moment where Guilt is offered the same choice that Moist was, but Guilt's too far gone. You know, Moist is at a point where he accidentally becomes a good guy. Just because he likes pulling off crazy stunts in front of everybody and has been put in a position where doing that benefits others. And he acknowledges that. At the end he sort of comes to terms with, I guess I can be a good guy using my usual methods. A quote unquote good guy. That's another thing he kind of has in common with very early Sam vimes, is that they both sort of have dark pasts, is very melodramatic, but maybe negative personality traits that they use to their benefit and the benefit of the greater good, that could absolutely be used negatively.

Sara 34:06

I would agree, I would agree with that statement.

Lilly 34:08

That's all. And that's again, that's a me thing, not a what this book is trying to do thing, but I'm not wrong.

Sara 34:14

You're not entirely wrong. One last thing I'll say about Gilt is that he spins some excellent corporate bullshit and my company has just gone through a round of layoffs and I recognized every single thing that he was saying in what, like, my company has said. So, sadly, corporate bullshit relevant to modern day still.

Lilly 34:37

Tech bros. Tech bros never changes.

Sara 34:41

Yup.

Lilly 34:43

So I know we've talked about our Discworld rankings a few times and obviously this book comes up for me because It retains number one. I was a little worried going into it. Did I make it all up? No, it's that good. But we also talk about small gods quite a bit, which is a very good book. But this book also brings up some religious commentary. And it's much more subtle because it's not, like, the main point of this novel. And that makes me like it much more, I think, as an adult.

Sara 35:13

Yeah, I mean, Moist uses religion. to con people, basically, not in a harmful way. He, before the book starts, he's stolen 150, 000 Ankh Morpork dollars and hidden them somewhere, and then he gets caught and is hanged, but the money is still out there. And he gets to a point in this novel where they need the money because guilt has just burned down the post office, and he says, to himself. Well, I know where 150, 000 are, but obviously he can't just admit that. So he writes a letter to lots of the gods and pretends that one of them has shown him some divine favor and told him where 150, dollars are.

Lilly 36:02

Specifically, he does not say which god. He says he does not know which one it was.

Sara 36:06

I think it's pretty implied though that it was Anoya, the goddess of rattling. Like, he implies it, that it was the goddess of rattling. Drawers. Or getting stuff stuck in drawers, because there's a lot of talk about how busy she gets afterwards.

Lilly 36:21

But so did the other gods. I thought he had specifically spread out the credit So that everyone sort of got plausible deniability. All of the priests could say, That could have been me.

Sara 36:34

Yeah, I thought he also had a comment about rattling the drawers.

Lilly 36:38

Well, he did, because he specifically threw in some of the smaller gods. Small gods, if you will. I think so that, Because he wasn't trying to put a big feather in the cap of one of the religions, right? He wasn't trying to say, This temple will give you 150, 000. He didn't want them to get that much credit. He just needed a smoke screen so that no one could call him out. And then he sort of accidentally gets belief in him as a person. Not religious belief, but Near the end of the book, everyone is convinced that he will be able to Pull off this impossible stunt because he's pulled off so many before and he's like, oh no, they trust me now.

Sara 37:20

Yes, you're not wrong. That does happen, because of this. But even before that he does actually get religious belief a little bit in, because all of the letters of the post office which have been undelivered for years, and the Uh, semi religious fervor of the old postmen have kind of created a very minor deity in the head of the postal service. And so that's how he can, like, feel the letters burning and all of that. So there is a little bit of that too.

Lilly 37:52

Yeah, there's also

Sara 37:54

But that's unrelated to him discovering this 150, 000.

Lilly 37:59

Anyway, that wasn't the main thrust of the book But the conversation around like hope and using hope against people was I thought well very well done And I like having I don't know I think this book got subtler than some of the early Discworld novels

Sara 38:15

See, I think that the conversation around hope, it's not a conversation about religion that this book is having, it is a conversation about hope, and that's shown in this one religious, like, act, but the point is not the religion, the point is that anyone can hope for that outcome, and we see, like, also with some of the veterinary scenes, like, hope that, you know, Moist can escape from jail at the very beginning and things like that. So hope is a through line through the story and it doesn't really have anything to do with the religion.

Lilly 38:49

I wouldn't say it doesn't have anything to do with the religion. I think that wasn't the main point, but adding religion to that conversation was, I think, very purposeful, and very much, like,

Sara 39:02

because religion does provide a sense of hope for many people, but it's not about the religion in the way that Small Gods is about the religion.

Lilly 39:10

right. But it was also saying, Hey, those guys also do that. It was still definitely pointing fingers.

Sara 39:18

Yes.

Lilly 39:20

The last thing I need to talk about in this book is our romance. I hesitate. I mean, it is a romance. They go on a full date and I think they kiss once because the second time they get interrupted.

Sara 39:36

He does ask her to marry him.

Lilly 39:39

Yeah, but she says no because I love her.

Sara 39:41

She, she does says no. She says, ask me later or something along those lines.

Lilly 39:46

so you're right. It is a romance. Adora Belle Dearheart.

Sara 39:51

She's pretty excellent.

Lilly 39:53

Amazing. Incredible. She's such a bitch. And Voiced loves that, and I love that for him. Yeah!

Sara 40:03

That is very true.

Lilly 40:06

And is charmed by him, but is still absolutely making him work for it. And he knows that, and is still like, yes, this is great. Like, someone who, Isn't just gonna take me at face value. Someone who is making me, not try, that's not the right word, but

Sara 40:22

Well, she's reluctantly charmed by him, but she sees him for who he is, rather than who he presents to the world. And I think he likes that, and she kinda likes that he's, yeah, he's a con man, but he's honest about it to her.

Lilly 40:38

by the end. He's not honest about it for a long

Sara 40:41

By the end, I mean, he spends some time faking it, but that's when we start to see her warm up to him.

Lilly 40:46

Yes, that's when she actually, genuinely starts to like him instead of just be charmed by him. You're right.

Sara 40:52

Yeah.

Lilly 40:53

She stands up for herself and for the golems, who I'm gonna say she works for them. I don't think that's really explicit in the book, but

Sara 41:00

I think it's pretty accurate.

Lilly 41:03

She deals with a lot of racist bullshit on their behalf and her reaction is to just start carrying around a crossbow.

Sara 41:09

As one does.

Lilly 41:10

Yeah, and he calls her Spike because her high heels are so pointy she, like, stabs through a guy's foot who's harassing her at a bar.

Sara 41:20

Don't we all wish we had shoes that did that?

Lilly 41:23

She's incredible. I do not remember how much she is in making money, and I haven't read Raising Steam, but I really hope that she maintains her level of incredibleness.

Sara 41:36

I will say, I agree with you, she's incredible. I don't really remember her role in making money or raising steam either, because those I have not re read recently. I don't necessarily think that Pratchett has the best track record at keeping the momentum going with good female characters, who are also in a relationship with the main character.

Lilly 42:02

Yeah.

Sara 42:04

So, I have a little bit of hesitancy there. I mean, like, obviously the witches are all great, but they are not romantic objects, basically. And, like, Lady Sibyl starts off strong, does kind of turn into just the love interest.

Lilly 42:21

She becomes a nagging harridan so quickly.

Sara 42:24

Angua does a little bit better, but I think she also kind of gets relegated to the side a lot.

Lilly 42:31

Well, okay, I would be okay with her having less page time. I mean, I wouldn't because I love her. But that doesn't make her a worse character. That just makes her a less central character.

Sara 42:41

Right.

Lilly 42:42

it's, the fact that Lady Sibyl became such a, like, whiny, angry wife stereotype after being set up to be not that.

Sara 42:52

Right. And I think that's kind of what I mean. Like, Angemo doesn't go through that, to that extent, but I do think that her character starts to focus less on how cool she is, and the cool things she can do as a werewolf, and more on her as Carrot's love interest. And I think, like, that's what I don't want to see, because I want these female characters to stand up on their own, not in relation to their male partner.

Lilly 43:19

Yeah, well we better fast forward to August so we can find out.

Sara 43:24

Yes.

Lilly 43:29

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

Sara 43:33

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Lilly 43:44

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Sara 43:52

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Lilly 43:59

Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated. Bye!